Writing [Tutorial] The Secret to Proper Paragraphing and Dialogue

CrazyGrimReaper

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This was what I was missing in my writing. I was always confused about adding dialogue tags and had no idea that action tags were a thing. I played around with dialogue tags as I knew only using dialogue tags was extremely boring and not recommended. That was basically a weird amalgamation of a dialogue tag and action tag combined. For Example: She squeaked out, "I didn't do anything" while her eyes darted about the room. I never knew about action tags so this was extremely helpful.

I also know that you are waiting for that one gripe from me. Well, here it is. My gripe is that I have none...

Amazing lesson!
 

OokamiKasumi

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This was what I was missing in my writing. I was always confused about adding dialogue tags and had no idea that action tags were a thing. I played around with dialogue tags as I knew only using dialogue tags was extremely boring and not recommended. That was basically a weird amalgamation of a dialogue tag and action tag combined. For Example: She squeaked out, "I didn't do anything" while her eyes darted about the room. I never knew about action tags so this was extremely helpful.

I also know that you are waiting for that one gripe from me. Well, here it is. My gripe is that I have none...

Amazing lesson!
I am so glad you found the information useful!
-- LOL! You're one of the few, the proud, and the brave -- that didn't have a complaint! Thank you! 💐
 

CrazyGrimReaper

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TLDR:
I don’t know why this discussion turned into web novel style v professional style. Or gatekeeping, like a statement of this is how you should write it! This is my common sense that one should know the best of both worlds.

A lot of people are misunderstanding the “rules” that professionals make. Professional rules aren’t actually rules. They are basically guidelines that are proven to work MOST of the time. And like you know, they don’t ALWAYS work. However, to better your craft in anything, it is always best to take the knowledge that has been passed down from generation to generation.

I am not saying to always use the “rules” professionals as heavily like OokamiKasumi. Nor am I saying to disregard them heavily like most people. Lost Librarian gave good suggestions on why professionals do not always use it. (At least this is how I think Lost Librarian framed it too in his but most people don't get!) What I am saying is to at least understand and know the rules of professionals. So that when YOU feel it is necessary to utilize these rules, then, you can use them properly to help tell your story better. AND when YOU feel that these rules are unnecessary in certain times then you can choose to forgo them!

Understanding and knowing these professional rules will allow you to understand what MOST people find appealing and WHY they are pleasing to them. As professionals created these “rules” because THEY WORK and have been proven to work over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Thus by knowing them, you have a new perspective on how to better your craft.

Whole Essay to Torture Yourself:
I just want to add my common sense to this discussion. If you reach the end and have read all the comments before my post, there are three things to note.

  1. You are a psychopath like me.
2. Wtf, why are people so smart and can seemingly take out great pieces of literature and reference/guide it right away

3. This turned into web novel style v professional style. Or gatekeeping, like a statement of this is how you should write it!

Although I may not have the qualifications and experience like OokamiKasumi or the sheer amount of literary knowledge like Lost Librarian. (Props to both of you for being so cool in different ways!).

What I have is that I know how to learn. I am a student and have been one for a long time. I have also tried to learn a lot of things outside of classes such as editing, programming, writing, acting, drawing, and more.

What patterns have I learned through learning different mediums and why does this matter? Well, one of my most favorite quotes is from Ethan Becker. A professional in the animation industry, “You can never create anything pro unless you’ve seen something pro. And to take it a step further. You can never create something pro unless you’ve broken down something pro.” What does animation/drawing have to do with anything? Well, there is the stigma of style and defense of drawing styles.

This heavily mirrors the gatekeeping of writing rules that professional publishers have! This also goes into Podcasting or Movie Editing as scenes also follow “rules” of chronological order and how a scene should flow or be set up. However, as we’ve seen with Lost Librarian’s examples, there are professionals who break the rules. Now you may be thinking. Since even professionals break the “rules” and make masterpieces, then so can I! WRONG! They break the rules because they know the rules. They know what works and how it works and push that understanding to the extreme, to the point where it sometimes breaks the rules.

That is how Picasso made art. If you look at his early work, It is not Cubism, however, if you look at his most recent ones. They are cubism. Picasso clearly understood the “rules” of drawing. He could create beautiful realistic paintings. However, he created cubism in contrast to push the rules he knew and understood to the limit. Thus creating cubism!

A lot of people are misunderstanding the “rules” that professionals make. Well, I’ll get into that after I explain why I am putting quotes around rules. I do that because professional rules aren’t actually rules. They are basically guidelines that are proven to work MOST of the time. And like you know, they don’t ALWAYS work. However, to create better writing it is always best to take the knowledge that has been passed down from generation to generation.

I am not saying to always use the “rules” professionals as heavily like OokamiKasumi. Nor am I saying to disregard them heavily like most people. Lost Librarian gave good suggestions on why professionals do not always use it. (At least this is how I think Lost Librarian framed it too in his but most people don't get!) What I am saying is to at least understand and know the rules of professionals. So that when YOU feel it is necessary to utilize these rules, then, you can use them properly to help tell your story better. AND when YOU feel that these rules are unnecessary in certain times then you can choose to forgo them!

All in all, understanding and knowing these professional rules will allow you to understand what MOST people find appealing and WHY they are pleasing to them. As professionals created these “rules” because THEY WORK and have been proven to work over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Thus by knowing them, you have a new perspective on how to better your craft.

I am CrazyGrimReaper. A random person from the internet. Thank you for listening to my TedTalk.
 
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LostLibrarian

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Lost Librarian gave good suggestions on why professionals do not always use it.
I think that is important, to underline: I WON'T argue against these rules for published novels, especially for new writers. They are in place and should be followed. A lot of them even when people don't want to go to a publisher. People should study and understand those rules, even if it is only so they can break them better.

I "only" argued against the "ultimate wording" on some of the points made, as - to me - there is a difference between "writing good fiction" and "writing fiction that is good for publishing". But it wasn't about the core points of these rules/guidelines/whatever one wants to name it...

So if you want your book at "barnes and noble" you better go and follow all these rules to 99.999%.

All in all, understanding and knowing these professional rules will allow you to understand what MOST people find appealing and WHY they are pleasing to them. As professionals created these “rules” because THEY WORK and have been proven to work over a LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Thus by knowing them, you have a new perspective on how to better your craft.
I think an important thing is also that these rules are based "on the past". So the publishing market is often years behind the actual trends of readers. (This can also be important, if you write in a new/developing genre like LitRPG. It can take a lot of "fixing" to sell a manuscript to an editor, that would work just fine with the actual readers). We also see that, when publisher X throws out a book that is more unique and sells like crazy, and all the publishers start throwing out clones of that book.
Publishing (especially the usually wanted mass-publishing) is about making money first. Creativity, story, etc, comes later.

While "grammar/formatting rules" are more long-lasting as new readers are trained towards accepting a certain standard, those same rules also apply to content. So - as writers - it is always good to keep that in mind, that these rules are temporary and can (and will) change from time to time.


If you want to get published by X, it can really help, to just get a list of new releases of the last years and look through the free chapters/etc to find out, what that publishing house accepted/threw out.

Especially things like "passive speech" or "amount of description" can really differ between publishers, especially with "genre-specific-publishers". Epic Fantasy or Sci-Fi publishers often allow a lot slower and more descriptive novels compared to YA-publishers. On the flip-side, YA-publishers often allow for more used tropes or "copied stories", as the target audience is "less experienced".



So, just to add to that: it's good to keep in mind, that there isn't "one set of rules for all writers at all times". Even in published writing. It can change between publishers. It can change between genres. It can also change between editors.

So if you enter your manuscript, you want to fix it, so that it is written for those publishers/genres you aim for...
 

ForestDweller

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Oh yeah, I want to ask, when is it acceptable to add a line break between an action and the following dialogue.

By that, I mean something like this.

(A character does/thinks something in the middle of a dialogue). "Then their dialogue comes".

Vs something like this.

(A character does something in the middle of a dialogue).
"Then their dialogue comes".

I usually use the second if the action/thought is really complicated. Or if I need the extra emphasis.

I don't have a hard rule myself. I only choose according to which one I feel is the most right for the occasion.
 

OokamiKasumi

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Oh yeah, I want to ask, when is it acceptable to add a line break between an action and the following dialogue.

By that, I mean something like this.

(A character does/thinks something in the middle of a dialogue). "Then their dialogue comes".​

Vs something like this.

(A character does something in the middle of a dialogue).​
"Then their dialogue comes".​

I usually use the second if the action/thought is really complicated. Or if I need the extra emphasis.

I don't have a hard rule myself. I only choose according to which one I feel is the most right for the occasion.

I was taught Not to break dialogue away from a character's actions or thoughts because those actions and thoughts identify who is speaking -- instead of "said."

My editors prefer that I put dialogue In Line with the actions and narration chronologically -- when they actually happen.

Example:
Michiru blinked. "He says it's a nick-name that Miss Koume came up with." She frowned at the tiny man. "Why would she do something so mean?"​
The doll-sized reaper rolled his one visible eye. "Because she hates my guts. Why else?"​
I also tend to put facial expressions/body language before dialogue because most people's faces/bodies reveal their emotions before they speak.

On Paragraph Breaks: REPOSTED

Paragraphing IS supposed to be divided by character --actions+dialogue. However sooner or later one will run across: Run-On Dialogue.

Run-On Dialogue is when one character talks, and talks, and talks...for whole paragraphs at a time.

Oddly enough, this problem isn't all that common, but it can happen to new writers who still haven't quite figured out how to break up their dialogue with actions and descriptions.

Far more common is the creation of whole paragraphs of Internal Dialogue and Introspection, especially when one writes in First Person POV, or Third Person Close POV.

When only one character is acting and talking, or acting and thinking, this can make for walls of text the size of a skyscraper. So, how do you break all that up?

Well hopefully you're breaking all that talking up with body language, action, and descriptions.

So, that's what you do first: Break up your lines of Dialogue with Actions, Description, and Body Language.

Next! Sub-Divide those lines of dialogue into paragraphs by Change in Action -- Change in Location -- Change in Thought or Ideas.

Example: Change in Thought or Idea
Did you know that you're supposed to write someone arguing with themselves as two different people having an argument complete with paragraph breaks, even though they're the same person?​
I sure didn't.​
Then my editor sent me that particular manuscript page covered in red ink.​

Example of all three in 3rd Person Close POV:
Standing with her back against her room's closed door, Michiru clutched her bathrobe to her throat and gasped for breath. She'd known that Koyomi and Aso were...dating, but she hadn't quite realized they'd gone that far.

She winced. Idiot...! Of course they've gone that far. The Yomi half of Koyomi's personality was openly lecherous, at least around Michiru, and Aso was a known womanizer. She'd had more than one run-in with his openly adoring and half-naked harem.

Michiru sighed heavily then turned to her right to set her bath things on her battered dresser next to her aged brass bed. It was beginning to look like she was the only virgin in the dorm. In fact, according to the gossip her classmates shared, she was very likely the only virgin in the whole senior class.

She was seriously beginning to feel rather...left out.

Michiru scowled and jerked opened the middle drawer of her dresser to yank out a pink flannel nightgown. Stupid virginity! She flung the night gown on the neatly made bed and slammed the drawer closed. It wasn't that she was saving herself for marriage or anything. She doubted she'd live that long. She just wanted to give her virginity to someone she liked - that liked her back.

However, the way things were going, she sincerely doubted she'd live long enough to go on a proper date, never mind get the chance to lose her virginity. Damn it!

Michiru stomped across the room to pull the heavy curtains closed. It was too damned cold at night to leave them open. The cracked windows did little to keep heat in the room. She then moved to the fireplace opposite her bed and knelt to light the paper covered fire log in her fireplace, then added a few actual wood logs. The aged fireplace was the room's only source of heat and the paper coated fire log only lasted a few hours.

Once the log was well and truly lit, she slipped out of her bathrobe and pulled her night gown over her head, tugging it down over her nudity. Stupid zombies! Why were they all in her town anyway? If it hadn't been for them, she'd have been able to live a normal life and gotten herself a normal boyfriend.

Michiru flopped back on her bed to stare at the cracked, water-stained ceiling. So what should I do? She didn't want to die a virgin! That would be completely pathetic.
Note how the character's Actions and Mood Swings (the back and forth in Thought,) allowed for paragraph breaks.

☕
 
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ForestDweller

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My editors prefer that I put dialogue In Line with the actions and narration chronologically -- when they actually happen.
Yeah, I already do that.

Michiru blinked. "He says it's a nick-name that Miss Koume came up with." She frowned at the tiny man. "Why would she do something so mean?"

But it doesn't always work. Like this for example What if I want her to frown right from the get go?

Though for this example, it still won't be long enough that it justifies adding a line break. Now, if she starts to think deeply about what she's going to say before she says it, then I might add that line break.
 

OokamiKasumi

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[It] doesn't always work. Like this for example What if I want her to frown right from the get go?

Though for this example, it still won't be long enough that it justifies adding a line break. Now, if she starts to think deeply about what she's going to say before she says it, then I might add that line break.

Look at the spoiler section near the bottom of the post right above yours. I posted an example of what you're asking about:

Caption: Excerpt from Death & the Maiden.​
 

CrazyGrimReaper

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Idk why I am typing this but it irks me whenever I have something and I need to get it out. If you ever feel that OokamiKasumi's advice to kill dialogue tags is awful and decide to not change and always use said. Then at least change up which dialogue tag you use. There are, in fact, tons of different dialogue tags.

Quick link to the source which probably explains better than I do

For example:
Squeaked
Whispered
Yelled
Shouted
Reprimanded
Questioned
Uttered
Declaimed
Asked
Exclaimed
Interjected
Begged
Indicated

What you can also do is write a little description (adverbially) at the end.
Example:
Squeaked nervously
Whispered indicatively
Interjected annoyingly
Shouted happily

However, the above still can be boring. So just make OokamiKasumi a little happy by describing an action afterward sometimes.
“Stop it!” Jenny said, angrily becomes “Stop it!,” Jenny said. Her hand slapping the table almost drowned out the sound of her voice.

You can also remove using the little description at the end (adverbially) by using the dialogue itself to display the character
Example:
“Goodbye” Viktor said, unconcerned becomes “Adios. Don’t let the door hit you, etcetera,” Viktor said.
“Really?” Yumiko said, excited
becomes “Ohmigod! Really?”

Don't forget to also mimic natural speech to make dialogue sound real to maybe and helpfully connect readers more. Also, try to think about what kind of speech/voice your character would have and try to connect it to the way a real person speaks. Find an example of a person who would speak similarly to yours and draw parallels to help yourself in bringing the character's voice to life.

Examples:
“Seriously, Johnny, don’t open the blue door. There’s a monster behind it,” Ahmed warned becomes “Seriously, Johnny. Don’t open the blue door,” Ahmed warned. “There’s a monster behind it.”

“Let’s take a look. It’s not so bad,” the doctor said as he examined the wound
becomes “Let’s take a look,” the doctor said. He examined the wound. “It’s not so bad.”
 

TotallyHuman

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Out of this whole huge essay, you chose to message me about only one typo?
-- Huh... I did better than I thought. ✨
I didn't message, it was my autism
But, if it's questions about the essay you want - what about inner monologues?
How to break that down into paragraphs? Especially when one line of thought goes on for a long time.
 
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Armored99

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These questions might've already been asked, but I don't feel like reading five pages of people having an in-depth discussion of sentence punctuation.

So, what about when multiple characters are acting in unision?

[The two calmed down. "Yes sir."] Without dialogue tags
[The two replied. "Yes sir."]

and what if you need to then signal that one of the character does something slightly different.

[The three responded. "Yes sir." With John sounding more anxious than the other two.]
or
[The three responded. "Yes sir."
However, John was sounding more anxious than the other two.]
 

OokamiKasumi

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So, what about when multiple characters are acting in unison?

[The two calmed down. "Yes sir."] Without dialogue tags
[The two replied. "Yes sir."]
The problem with this one is this bit:
The two calmed down.​

This line Tells the reader that they calmed down, rather than Shows that they've calmed down. Written this way, that line implies Feelings from within those characters' point of view. AKA: Head-Hopping. Even if that's Not what you meant -- that's how it Reads.

If you don't want it to read like you're head-hopping, you need to Show their feelings by describing their physical reactions; their body language.
However, once you add Body Language, you need to separate both characters into two different paragraphs --because two characters are Acting-- unless they both Show the same Reaction; the same body language.

Example:
The two soldiers sighed in obvious relief then chorused, "Yes sir."

...what if you need to then signal that one of the character does something slightly different.

[The three responded. "Yes sir." With John sounding more anxious than the other two.]
or
[The three responded. "Yes sir."
However, John was sounding more anxious than the other two.]
If John is showing different body language from the others, John gets his own paragraph.

Example:
Two of the three soldiers sighed in obvious relief.​
The third soldier, John, remained stiffly upright.​
All three saluted and called out, "Yes sir!"​
John's voice came out in a slightly higher octave, revealing his anxiety.​


☕
I didn't message, it was my autism
But, if it's questions about the essay you want - what about inner monologues?
How to break that down into paragraphs? Especially when one line of thought goes on for a long time.
Inner monologues are paragraphed at each change in Thought or Idea.

Example:
Nerve-grating, high-pitched beeping speared into my ear drums from far too close.

I jerked awake, eyes wide in my all-too-comfy bed. It was five in the morning and pitch black. Not that it really mattered to me. I could see just fine in full darkness. However, my ears were just a little too sensitive for that damned alarm.

Groaning, I reached over to my left to slap the off button on top of the beeping monstrosity of a clock -- gently. I could all too easily crush it with my strength.

I dearly missed the music my smartphone alarm used to play. Sadly, those wouldn't be invented for another decade.

My current phone was a flip-phone. I had to use the number pad to text. Not that I had anyone to text to, other than Mom. The camera was half-way decent, but the phone had zero memory. I could take ten pictures tops, so any pictures I wanted to keep I had to download to my desktop computer.

With a hefty yawn, I flopped back to wallow among my pillows. Unfortunately, a minute was all the time I could allow myself to wallow. I had a very tight schedule.

Reaching back over to the bedside lamp, I flicked it on then winced at the light. Eyes designed to see in the dark did not do so well in sudden brightness -- even when it was only a thirty watt bulb.

Rolling out of bed with a groan, my feet thumped on the floor. For a few long seconds, I just stood there dazed. Despite the fact that I'd been getting up this early since before primary school, I wasn't, and would never be, a morning person.

Yawning again, I slid my hand down my pale blond, butt-length twisted rope of hair. Stripping off the elastic hair tie at the end, I dug my fingers in and loosened my pin-straight hair. One did not go to bed with hair this long unbound. It got into everything.

Dressed in only pale blue pajama bottoms, I padded out of my room for the toilet to do my morning business. Once that was done, I went into the washroom to drop my pajama pants and stepped under a near-boiling shower to get ready to start my third, and final year of middle-school -- again.

There are no words to describe just how done I was with childhood, especially when this was my second time doing it.

 
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sir

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Huh, from all sides of this discussion, I've learned a lot. Never even heard of the splitting paragraphs when talking rule before, and with all three of my fictions no-one bothered pointing it out... now I know why they felt so short compared to other people's works lol.

That being said...

Being a published author seems like a real pain for what it's worth, I'm friends with someone who just published a physical book, and they seemed chill... idk, looks like they were their own editor so that might've been a big factor. At least, I hope they were their own editor, because I caught a single spelling mistake.

Not sponsored btw, -looks at branded merch- but at the same time, the book is called Outland.
 
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ConstanTeen

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To revive this old monster... All of those rules should be taken with a grain of salt. If you want to be published the traditional way, then maybe you'd better follow all of this. That, though, is such a bad path in modern times. If you want to publish your book, just do it yourself on Amazon. I did, and my books earned me decent money by a Second or Third World country standards. And one thing to note is that I saved money on editing and English is my second language, so not only those books didn't follow any of the "style" rules, they also had pretty bad grammar, just like 80% of the popular webnovels on scribblehub. So don't be afraid, just publish on Amazon if you want to publish, just beware that for the biggest $$$ you need to enrol into Kindle Unlimited, which means removing everything you publish from the internet. It's not necessary, though. Another way to earn would be with Patreon. Traditional publishing is the least likely and the least profitable choice for most people on this site.

People buy books based on the book description, not based on the actual content. Good content will sell the sequels, though, which is very important for a webnovel-style books that are very, very long. I'd say that it's good to know all those rules and add those that you like to your writing, but that will have very little effect on the popularity of your book. And most of the writers on this site need to improve their basic grammar, the fastest way for this is to use Language Tool, Grammarly, Chat GPT, or other similar app. I currently use LT as it integrates with any site, including Google Docs and is completely free. I didn't try Chat GPT yet because it doesn't have an official app for writers, but it has an unofficial one which is less convenient to use, though it should be the best option out of the three.
 

ExpertReader101

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This is just an overwhelming amount of information... Although I think it's not a bad thing to be familiar with these rules.
But would it be needed in WebNovel writing which is completely differently formatted? I imagine that a lot of us here have learned writing from following other online novel styles after all (JP,KR,CNs)
People buy books based on the book description, not based on the actual content. Good content will sell the sequels, though, which is very important for a webnovel-style books that are very, very long. I'd say that it's good to know all those rules and add those that you like to your writing, but that will have very little effect on the popularity of your book. And most of the writers on this site need to improve their basic grammar, the fastest way for this is to use Language Tool, Grammarly, Chat GPT, or other similar app. I currently use LT as it integrates with any site, including Google Docs and is completely free. I didn't try Chat GPT yet because it doesn't have an official app for writers, but it has an unofficial one which is less convenient to use, though it should be the best option out of the three.
What is 'LT'? Sounds useful
 

OokamiKasumi

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This is just an overwhelming amount of information...
It is a lot, and I struggled for years to learn it all too.

Although I think it's not a bad thing to be familiar with these rules.
But would it be needed in WebNovel writing which is completely differently formatted?
Chronological sentence structure and knowing how and when to paragraph properly crosses all formats from paperbacks to online story sites. Remember, these rules were invented to make stories Clear and Understandable to The Reader. That they frustrate the author is completely incidental.

The only differences I've noticed between the two --and I write both-- is that the paragraphs in online postings have a space between them, rather than indenting, and that online story chapters tend to be smaller; roughly 1000 words -- but only when Translated. The chapters in their Original Languages are much longer.

The translators apparently cut the chapters into smaller chunks to get them online faster because translation takes Time --sometime a considerable amount of time-- to get everything right. This is why translated chapters tend to have titles like 1.1, 1.2, 1.3, etc. All those chapters were originally ONE chapter.

To make matter worse, many of these translators have Deadlines to post to; once a month to once a week. That is NOT a lot of time to translate a language then straighten out the grammar glitches that happen when translating a language where each line starts with the Subject of that line -- which English does Not.

I imagine that a lot of us here have learned writing from following other online novel styles after all (JP,KR,CNs)
Many of them have indeed -- and It Shows.
-- Massive info dumps in the first chapters, tiny chapters that don't need to be tiny, almost a complete lack of description for anything, middle-school level vocabulary, 2-dimentional 'Mary Sue/Gary Stue' characters, abandoned dialogue unconnected to the paragraph it belongs to, lack of quotation marks, or worse: use of [] for dialogue, passive voice writing, and uncompleted stories where it's obvious to any reader that the author had no clue where they planned to end their story so gave up, or just plain got bored and left.

Believe me IT SHOWS.

What is 'LT'? Sounds useful

Can't help you there, I use actual grammar books and a thesaurus not online programs that are extremely limited in what they help they can provide.

Even so, what you choose to do, and how you chose to write is your business.
-- Just keep in mind that you are competing for a limited reading audience against authors like me. :)

☕
 

ConstanTeen

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What is 'LT'? Sounds useful
LT is LanguageTool, which I mentioned in the previous sentence. :)

Many of them have indeed -- and It Shows.
-- Massive info dumps in the first chapters, tiny chapters that don't need to be tiny, almost a complete lack of description for anything, middle-school level vocabulary, 2-dimentional 'Mary Sue/Gary Stue' characters, abandoned dialogue unconnected to the paragraph it belongs to, lack of quotation marks, or worse: use of [] for dialogue, passive voice writing, and uncompleted stories where it's obvious to any reader that the author had no clue where they planned to end their story so gave up, or just plain got bored and left.

Believe me IT SHOWS.

I mean, you aren't wrong. But there's a big but. I recently read Eminence in Shadow LN (which, btw, is a published series) and it has most of those issues. It's also one of the most interesting series I've ever read, and I'd totally love to read twenty more volumes of that stuff. The problem with most western published novels is that they over-describe everything, they try to add a deeper meaning to a story, to develop all characters and follow all the rules instead of trying to tell a story that will be FUN to read, a story that will make readers feel those dopamine hits like video games. There's just a different type of charm in those fast-paced webnovels that just focus on conflict, on character OPness, on what makes us want to read the next chapter.

Also, as I said before, most stories here, even among the most popular ones, have very bad grammar. And what you're trying to teach is a step or two further than just having a proper grammar.

Can't help you there, I use actual grammar books and a thesaurus not online programs that are extremely limited in what they help they can provide.

Those programs can solve, like, 95% of grammar issues that most writers here have. Their PRO plans also solve many of the style issues, like passive voice, poor word choice, etc.
 

OokamiKasumi

Author of Quality Smut
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Believe me IT SHOWS.

I mean, you aren't wrong. But there's a big but. I recently read Eminence in Shadow LN (which, btw, is a published series)--
It is a published series -- a children's book series meant for middle-school boys translated from Japanese, a language that doesn't have adjectives at the middle-school level of that language. (You know, the words needed for description?)

There's also a manga series, and an anime out for it too -- also marketed toward pre-teen boys, which is why it's H'y (echee) and non-romantic.

--and it has most of those issues.
Yes, yes it does. Oh, so much.
-- So, because someone published all those mistakes, it's okay if you make them too? (Face-palm. Sigh...)

It's also one of the most interesting series I've ever read, and I'd totally love to read twenty more volumes of that stuff.
My dear ConstanTeen, your age-group is showing. So when do you graduate high school?

The problem with most western published novels is that they over-describe everything, they try to add a deeper meaning to a story, to develop all characters and follow all the rules instead of trying to tell a story that will be FUN to read, a story that will make readers feel those dopamine hits like video games.
Darling, there is no shame in enjoying kid's books and stories.

I happen to be quite fond of them -- and manga and anime. However my taste in manga and anime is a bit more mature than Eminence in Shadow;

Akira, Doomed Megalopolis, Ghost in the Shell; the 90's original, Ergo Proxy, Hellsing, Mononoke, Bakemonogitare, Another, MuShiShi, Kyoukai no Kanata, Last Magus Bride, Rising of the Shield Hero, Satsuriku no Tenshi, Uchouten Kazoku, MouDaoZuShi, Vanitas no Carte, XY, Undead Girl -- to name a few.

However, when I Write, it's with the determination to deliver the best stories my skills are capable of delivering. I prefer to create work I am proud to show to the public -- with the least mistakes.

But that's just me.

There's just a different type of charm in those fast-paced webnovels that just focus on conflict, on character OPness, on what makes us want to read the next chapter.
Yes, that charm is called Wish-Fulfillment. It's a very popular trope among middle-schoolers and many high-schoolers. They love that stuff because it has absolutely no basis in logic or causality. It's pure 8th-grade syndrome make-believe on an epic scale.

Google the terms: Mary Sue and Gary Stue when you get a chance. You'll find them on TV Tropes too. I'm sure you'll find the terms quite enlightening.

Also, as I said before, most stories here, even among the most popular ones, have very bad grammar.
That's because most of the writers here are Beginners copying their style (and poor writing habits,) from their favorite translated novellas, (60k light novels.) Just like you.

--what you're trying to teach is a step or two further than just having a proper grammar.
You are quite correct. My tutorials are for those who want to take their writing past the Beginner stage and beyond self-publishing into actual book publication.

If you want to write Gary Stu wish-fulfillment kid stories without worrying about silly things like grammar, description, or any of those other pesky things like plot, characterization, or spelling-- Be my guest. I am certainly not going to talk you out of it.

Those programs can solve, like, 95% of grammar issues that most writers here have. Their PRO plans also solve many of the style issues, like passive voice, poor word choice, etc.
I'm not saying that programs can't help. I happen to use a fairly comprehensive Spelling program called WordWeb myself. (Because I can't spell for crap.)

However--

Programs are Not Perfect, especially when you're dealing with English -- which changes their grammar rules almost on the fly.

The main problem with English is that it's a composite language with far too many words and grammar styles ripped off from other languages.

English was originally created as a Trade language to bridge the language gaps between Anglo-Saxon French, Roman Latin, Viking Scandinavian, and Gaelic. German, Spanish, Russian, and actual Italian were then added to the mix. Once you add in American stylings, English gets very complicated very fast.

As for Grammar programs -- Buyer Beware.

Most grammar programs only cover Composition writing, also known as Business writing or Report writing, and Thesis writing. These programs cover what is taught in schools and colleges because Students are the main users of those programs. Students are who these programs are designed for -- Not Fiction Writers.

These programs do Not cover the grammar and sentence structure needed for Fiction Writing which is WHY this tutorial exists -- to fill that gap.

As I said before, if you're happy writing wish-fulfillment stories at the middle-school level, by all means, carry on. Have a good time! Post away!

However, don't assume that all the other writers on this site want to remain at that level. Some of them Do want to improve their craft and possibly make a living off of what they write later on. This tutorial is for them -- the ones who want to go beyond mere self-entertainment on a story posting site.

If you don't, that's perfectly fine. I certainly won't talk you out of it.

After all, one less polished author means less competition for me. :)

☕
 
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