What’s your take on nationalism in novels?

[Simo]

I don’t particularly mind when an author tries to portray his country in a better light. But once done excessively, and at the expanse of other countries, it just makes me cringe inwardly. And most of the time I end up dropping the story all together. This is the main reason why I tend to avoid modern day fantasies, whether they be Korean or Chinese.

I know a lot of readers don’t really care about it, and can simply ignore it all together. But for some reason, I can’t. I honestly wish I could, but the second real world’s messed up politics come to play, portrayed very unrealistically. I usually drop the story no matter how much I enjoyed it.

I have been thinking about this as I’m currently reading The novel’s extra. And I am curious to see what you guys think of the subject.

 

[SerikoLee]

I prefer Demroacry, monarchy, and communism within novels but with isekeai will just be anything goes.

 

[longer]

Nothing wrong with it until the author starts consuming absurd amounts of copium. For instance, I've read enough Japanese light novels to bear witness to multiple instances of "totally not fantasy Japan" be depicted as a nation that only seeks peace, but is forced to wage war. Because while current Japan is very peaceful, I feel like many, not all, Japanese authors like to pretend the period between the Boshin war and the end of WWII just didn't happen.

Oh, and I think the problem is especially prevalent in current East Asian literature. Because if you were to ask an ordinary East Asian citizen their view on a historic enemy, you may very well see Hitler manifest.

I prefer Demroacry, monarchy, and communism within novels but with isekeai will just be anything goes.

Nationalism is not a form of government. In fact, all three of your examples can display extreme nationalism.

 

[Simo]

Nothing wrong with it until the author starts consuming absurd amounts of copium. For instance, I've read enough Japanese light novels to bear witness to multiple instances of "totally not fantasy Japan" be depicted as a nation that only seeks peace, but is forced to wage war. Because while current Japan is very peaceful, I feel like many, not all, Japanese authors like to pretend the period between the Boshin war and the end of WWII just didn't happen.

Oh, and I think the problem is especially prevalent in current East Asian literature. Because if you were to ask an ordinary East Asian citizen their view on a historic enemy, you may very well see Hitler manifest.

I feel like there is a certain sense of superiority in all east asian countries. Especially amongst the Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese. Chinese people still have a strong dislike towards the Japanese from previous historical events. Japanese people pretending to be saints. And Koreans, well..

 

[EternalSunset0]

I don't mind it probably because while I can interpret and see those themes come out, I myself don't concern myself with them too much. What's fiction stays fiction, as they say.

Tbh I haven't read a lot with these themes, but first thing that popped up in my mind is Gate. Still love the show/novel although I can see the propaganda in it. I still enjoy it just as an Isekai harem thing (is it even a harem?) that's full of author's wish fulfillment, but the actual military propaganda doesn't affect me at all.

 

[Simo]

I prefer Demroacry, monarchy, and communism within novels but with isekeai will just be anything goes.

I don't particularly care about country politics in Isekai since It's a different world altogether. Hence why I don’t mind. The author can play with it as he/she likes. Though when it comes to current world politics, its a whole different matter.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

I hate it. Not because I personally think blind nationalism is dumb (I do) and actually runs counter to the founding principles of several democratic nations (it does), but because when the average author does it, they do so at the expense of the story when they could have easily made the nationalism an aspect of the character rather than the narrative. To get what I mean, look at the archetypical guardsman or space marine from Warhammer 40K. Nationalism is ingrained in their culture, as is xenophobia and puritanism. The existence of these elements don't make the story bad, it's how the narrative portrays the whys and hows and effects of said nationalism that will determine if the story is about a nationalist in a world or if the story is about a world designed to sell you the ideals of nationalism.

I mean, if you're making a "warning novel" a la The Handmaid's Tale it's a different story, but I expect some actual work to be done on the political commentary in such a case. Otherwise, you don't have a thought-provoking piece that allows you to look at different worldviews through the lens of someone you can sympathize with, you have propaganda. I already get bombarded by Prager U ads, why should I have to suffer it in my isekai? You can't even hook me with your cute beastkin waifu, don't you dare presume to be emotionally intelligent enough to convince me that I should sell my soul to your country.

 

[LostLibrarian]

I feel like there is a certain sense of superiority in all east asian countries.

I mean, we have the same in the west. Try to count the western movies with stereotypical and stupid russian enemies...


Nationalism is a product of a country and its history. I have no problem with it and mostly ignore it. I only hate it if it gets in the way of the story. Easiest examples are the tons of chinese webnovels that introduce the japanese as the lowest and most stupid enemies ever. No matter what fantasy, cultivation, or even sci-fi setting.
Not only will the actual protagonists look stupid if they have to struggle against such enemies, but the aggressive versions often come across as racism. I think that takes the second place for "reasons to drop" behind "story not going anywhere".

So... low-key nationalism, some pride, or "I just want to display some good points in an alternative setting"? No problem. Destroying your own fantasy world to throw out some rather racist remarks against 2D-evil cartoon characters? Yeah... that's a nope from me.

 

[longer]

I feel like there is a certain sense of superiority in all east asian countries. Especially amongst the Chinese, Koreans, and Japanese. Chinese people still have a strong dislike towards the Japanese from previous historical events. Japanese people pretending to be saints. And Koreans, well..

There is a sense of superiority among many countries. Ever hear a central or south American speak about his "neighbors" or a Balkan discussing what rightfully belongs to who?

Regardless, stereotypes have some truth. For instance, the Chinese of a history of egoing, like them mfs named themselves the middle kingdom to signify they're in the center of the world. It's to the point that a Chinese man straight up told me that I am Chinese and should speak his language.

 

[Simo]

There is a sense of superiority among many countries. Ever hear a central or south American speak about his "neighbors" or a Balkan discussing what rightfully belongs?

Regardless, stereotypes have some truth. For instance, the Chinese of a history of egoing, like them mfs named themselves the middle kingdom to signify they're in the center of the world. It's to the point that a Chinese man straight up told me that I am Chinese and should speak his language.

True, I always thought the whole matter with face and pride was exaggerated in novels. That is until I went for uni over there...

I mean, we have the same in the west. Try to count the western movies with stereotypical and stupid russian enemies...


Nationalism is a product of a country and its history. I have no problem with it and mostly ignore it. I only hate it if it gets in the way of the story. Easiest examples are the tons of chinese webnovels that introduce the japanese as the lowest and most stupid enemies ever. No matter what fantasy, cultivation, or even sci-fi setting.
Not only will the actual protagonists look stupid if they have to struggle against such enemies, but the aggressive versions often come across as racism. I think that takes the second place for "reasons to drop" behind "story not going anywhere".

So... low-key nationalism, some pride, or "I just want to display some good points in an alternative setting"? No problem. Destroying your own fantasy world to throw out some rather racist remarks against 2D-evil cartoon characters? Yeah... that's a nope from me.

Oh, I agree with it being apparent in the west as well. The only reason I’m only talking about east asian countries is because It's usually more prominent in their novels. I suppose its understandable since most writers tend to cater for their audience, which is usually their fellow countryman. But still, its sad when a story is ruined by it.

I hate it. Not because I personally think blind nationalism is dumb (I do) and actually runs counter to the founding principles of several democratic nations (it does), but because when the average author does it, they do so at the expense of the story when they could have easily made the nationalism an aspect of the character rather than the narrative. To get what I mean, look at archetypical guardsman or space marine from 40K, nationalism is ingrained in their culture, as is xenophobia and puritanism. The existence of these elements don't make the story bad, it's how the narrative portrays the whys and hows and effects of said nationalism that will determine if the story is about a nationalist in a world or if the story is about a world designed to sell you the ideals of nationalism.

I mean, if you're making a "warning novel" a la The Handmaid's Tale it's a different story, but I expect some actual work to be done on the political commentary in such a case. Otherwise, you don't have a thought-provoking piece that allows you to look at different worldviews through the lens of someone you can sympathize with, you have propaganda. I already get bombarded by Prager U ads, why should I have to suffer it in my Isekai? You can't even hook me with your cute beastkin waifu, don't you dare presume to be emotionally intelligent enough to convince me that I should sell my soul to your country.

Couldn’t have said it better. I agree.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

I don’t particularly mind when an author tries to portray his country in a better light. But once done excessively, and at the expanse of other countries, it just makes me cringe inwardly. And most of the time I end up dropping the story all together. This is the main reason why I tend to avoid modern day fantasies, whether they be Korean or Chinese.

I know a lot of readers don’t really care about it, and can simply ignore it all together. But for some reason, I can’t. I honestly wish I could, but the second real world’s messed up politics come to play, portrayed very unrealistically. I usually drop the story no matter how much I enjoyed it.

I have been thinking about this as I’m currently reading The novel’s extra. And I am curious to see what you guys think of the subject.

It's based.

 

[Deeprotsorcerer]

It's based.

It's cringe.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

As someone from a country with only a few things I can be proud of, I can't relate.

But in all seriousness, I'm all fine with nationalism in stories I read, watch or hear. One reason is that, I do get to observe how the people see everyone (or the events) else around them, which I find interesting, as well as a treasure trove of ideas for my own work.

Another reason for me is, I can also conduct my own research on why that certain author wrote like that, which lay on his set of beliefs, and values. The result? I can write characters with similar behavior that feels 'authentic'.

Everyone has their own bias. To many other authors, they'd want to portray their country, nation or culture in a positive or negative light, depending on their story themes. While some can be annoying, it's an opportunity for me to research for my own work's improvement.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

Boshin war

One of my favorite conflicts to read about when in classes. I studied Ancient & Medieval East Asian History in uni, and we had an entire semester about the Bakumatsu. I actually think the Shogunate had a chance to win if they had made a better effort to retain the allegiance of the Satsuma and Choshu domains, who ended up being the main "heroes" of the Imperial cause.

At least until the Satsuma Rebellion. Poor Saigo Takamori, he didn't want the war, but it was forced upon him. He went from being an Imperial hero to an old-fashioned rustic standing in the way of Japanese "progress"

Also, I'm always amused when Chinese nationalism exerts superiority against other East Asian peoples, as if they tend to forget they've spent nearly half their own history (If you count the Sixteen Kingdoms/Eastern Jin era and up to the Qing) underneath some form of foreign (barbarian according to them) occupation. It's a weird flex to act like your the best when you have a history of so-called barbarians stomping a mudhole in you.

I'm more puzzled by Korean nationalism since they've had very few instances where they could pretend to be a major player in East Asian geographical politics. They've had eras where they were able to fight China or Japan on equal terms...but it was very rare.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

I'm always amused when Chinese people exert superiority against other East Asians, as if they tend to forget they've spent nearly half their own history underneath some form of foreign (barbarian according to them) occupation. It's a weird flex to act like your the best when you have a history of so-called barbarians stomping a mudhole in you.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think many mainland Chinese think that way because of their old belief that their land was once the 'center of the world'?

And add to that there are things that they invented that still being used up to this day. Some great source of pride, if I may say.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think many mainland Chinese think that way because of their old belief that their land was once the 'center of the world'?

And add to that there are things that they invented that still being used up to this day. Some great source of pride, if I may say.

I didn't say they had no reason to be proud, I said that they had no reason to pretend to be the best in the region. And yeah, the old Middle Kingdom claim.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

I didn't say they had no reason to be proud, I said that they had no reason to pretend to be the best in the region. And yeah, the old Middle Kingdom claim.

Honestly, since my place is near to them, they still act like that.

9 Dash Line? Check.
Illegal structures in our territories? Check.

Well, I guess that's how nationalism works. You twist your history to your narrative in order to avenge the embarassment you suffered before, completely forgetting the fact that you got your ass handed to you because of that very arrogance. Revanchism is one of the world's ills, if I may say.

 

[longer]

One of my favorite conflicts to read about when in classes. I studied Ancient & Medieval East Asian History in uni, and we had an entire semester about the Bakumatsu. I actually think the Shogunate had a chance to win if they had made a better effort to retain the allegiance of the Satsuma and Choshu domains, who ended up being the main "heroes" of the Imperial cause.

Hated how it was taught to me in high school. The Imperialists are portrayed as forward thinking progressives while the Shogunate was painted as regressive conservatives. Ignored that the Imperialists had major factions of hyper militaristic and nationalistic groups while the so called fanatically traditional Shogunate were the ones that obtained the first ironlcad ship from westerners, before it was yoinked.

Also, I'm always amused when Chinese people exert superiority against other East Asians, as if they tend to forget they've spent nearly half their own history underneath some form of foreign (barbarian according to them) occupation. It's a weird flex to act like your the best when you have a history of so-called barbarians stomping a mudhole in you.

It makes sense because the Chinese were the ones spreading their culture near all the time. The nomads took in more Han culture than the Han took in nomadic culture. Same goes for many "subject" states in the vicinity adopting Han traditions. Just forget about the whole Qing Dynasty incident where the Manchus forced many traditions on the Han.

I'm more puzzled by Korean nationalism since they've had very instances where they could pretend to be a major player in East Asian geographical politics. They've had eras where they were able to fight China or Japan on equal terms...but it was very rare.

A lot of small countries will ego hard regardless of "reality." Vietnam consistently talks mad shit despite being a historical footnote whose main claim to fame is occasionally being really annoying to the super power of the era.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

Hated how it was taught to me in high school. The Imperialists are portrayed as forward thinking progressives while the Shogunate was painted as regressive conservatives. Ignored that the Imperialists had major factions of hyper militaristic and nationalistic groups while the so called fanatically traditional Shogunate were the ones that obtained the first ironlcad ship from westerners, before it was yoinked.

Yeah. The Imperialists initially intended to expel all foreigners while the Shogunate preferred to allow them to remain so that they could learn and procure technological advancements from them. However, the moment the Imperialists won, they reneged on their initial promise of expelling foreigners and thus began the Meiji Restoration.

 

[Deleted member 54065]

A lot of small countries will ego hard regardless of "reality." Vietnam consistently talks mad shit despite being a historical footnote whose main claim to fame is occasionally being really annoying to the super power of the era.

Reality - first casualty when nationalism goes full brrrrrt.