Reborn as a villainess cliches or tropes that should be explored/questioned

[Ay89AZ]

I'm looking for suggestions about rebirth as a villainess (not necessarily Reborn as a Villainess Noble Girl) that should be examined. My current piece is about it and I just want to gain an understanding about where you think the sub-genre is headed.

*Please note that I might take some of the discussions we have into the piece I am currently writing about the said topic. Granted, this is more about trying to marry what I have in my head and what I think would be consumable by readers in general.

Much love. x

 

[Erys]

I read that as tropes that should be exploded.

 

[Ay89AZ]

I read that as tropes that should be exploded.

Lmao no more like "tropes should be explored to the end so that it saturates and forces people to be creative again".

 

[gaylolis]

It'd be funny if the Villainess able to practice magic in the womb but it results in accidental abortion.

 

[ModernGold7ne]

I'd a story like that where there's no romance at all.
Such a simple change would be a large divergence.

 

[GreatBlueDane]

I want to read about a story where a villainess actually remains villainous after rebirth. Maybe she wants to usurp the throne and start an empire, instead of just trying to "survive" the original plot.

 

[lyharbour]

I want to read about a story where a villainess actually remains villainous after rebirth. Maybe she wants to usurp the throne and start an empire, instead of just trying to "survive" the original plot.

Exactly! I wanted one so much, I'm writing it. Personally, as a reader, I would love to see more stories like this. There're sadly few at the moment.
However, I can kind of understand why. I've gotten some backlash on RoyalRoad about my protagonist being "completely unlikeable". If anyone does decide to write a villainess story where the protagonist remains villainous, I would definitely recommend planning and showing a lot of the characterization early on. In my opinion, villains are more complicated and harder to write, which is part of what makes them so intriguing.

My biggest problem with the subgenre is when the original heroine turns out to be a white lotus and a very flat antagonist, which happens far too frequently. They don't have reasonable motivations or emotions driving their actions, and end up being destroyed by the reborn 'villainess' under the guise of revenge so quickly and pathetically I often end up feeling sorry for them. All characters should feel real, so I think it's important for a story to seem reasonable from different perspectives.
My other problem is when the reborn villainess is overpowered. She's suddenly nice, so everyone loves her, and she densely doesn't understand why the story has changed and the male leads love her instead of the female lead. It gets old and boring quickly, which is why I think there should be at least more creative conflicts.

I hope this helps :)

 

[Fox-Trot-9]

If you look at the etymology of the word 'villainess,' it comes from the world 'villa,' as in a large country house. So going off of that, a possible villainess character could also be from a country noble, which would actually make sense, since genteel poverty has existed in historical times. So you might think of a villainess character who was from a fallen noble house, who's now from an orphanage. Idk, this is just connecting some dots.

Edit: Also, I did a previous thread on the villainess genre, "What Are Your Thoughts on the Villainess Stories?" Hope this provides more ideas:

What are your thoughts on villainess stories?

Yep. Question says it all. Since I'm writing my own villainess story, I'm just curious what you all think, b/c I've read quite a few villainess isekai manga and manwha, and they tend to follow a survival-oriented plot line where the goal is for the MC to avoid banishment in an otome game or...

forum.scribblehub.com

As for where the genre might go, your guess is as good as mine. There's so much potential, but the repeated story elements overshadow the creativity involved. I'm also writing a villainess story, so that's why.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

I want to see a story where the villainess wakes up, gets out of bed, walks down to the basement where she whips up a bomb, arranges to have a tea party where everyone who betrayed her in the previous life, and straight up fuckin' murders them. Using the chaos of the massive death toll, the villainess proceeds to use the deaths as a sacrifice to rip open a hole to another universe allowing countless demons to rampage and murder with glee.

You know... a happy ending.

The problem with most time regression stories is because evil people are still evil. I have helped people who fucked up their entire lives, got them back to square one, only to watch them immediately make the exact same mistakes assuming that THIS TIME IT WILL WORK. I actually like villainess stories, but I don't believe the assumption that they will actually change. Because they won't.

Now if they lived their life, had regrets then were the ones to roll back the clock, then yes, they MIGHT change, but a villainess sent back in time because "reasons"? No. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. If the will isn't there to change to begin with and they had to work and sacrifice for that change, it won't work. A gift that is earned with no effort or sacrifice is not valued. Most villainesses would just flush the new chance right now the drain.

----

What I want to see is a version where the time regression from the beheading of the villainess takes place, except everyone in the immediate area regresses as well. The King and queen, the prince, the villainess, the saintess, the reverse harem for the saintess, and the villainess' entire family who were beheaded with her at the time.

But nobody else.

So the king might wish to immediately kill the villainess' family, but in the past the Duke and his family was MUCH more powerful, so these two groups have to face off. The prince and the villainess are still engaged. The saintess is in some orphanage. The King and Queen realize the solid position they were in doesn't exist. The mine of gemstones hasn't been discovered.

But then there are many forces that are acting on both parties that were pushing both to fight so they could weaken the country for take over.

So when the duke basically prepares to start a civil war, the outside party who didn't regress immediately step up to help them, which seems rather sus to the duke, who puts it together that the two were manipulated against each other and so they have to reunite to defend the country.

The problem is, even if they had Iago whispering in their ears, the still were assholes to each other. The duke still abused his daughter ruining her personality. The Prince still cheated on the villainess with the saintess. The saintess suddenly realizes that becoming the saintess completely torpedos any hope of having a normal life. The reverse haram realize this is their chance to steal the saintess from the prince.

Oh... that would be grand.

 

[Fox-Trot-9]

I want to see a story where the villainess wakes up, gets out of bed, walks down to the basement where she whips up a bomb, arranges to have a tea party where everyone who betrayed her in the previous life, and straight up fuckin' murders them. Using the chaos of the massive death toll, the villainess proceeds to use the deaths as a sacrifice to rip open a hole to another universe allowing countless demons to rampage and murder with glee.

You know... a happy ending.

The problem with most time regression stories is because evil people are still evil. I have helped people who fucked up their entire lives, got them back to square one, only to watch them immediately make the exact same mistakes assuming that THIS TIME IT WILL WORK. I actually like villainess stories, but I don't believe the assumption that they will actually change. Because they won't.

Now if they lived their life, had regrets then were the ones to roll back the clock, then yes, they MIGHT change, but a villainess sent back in time because "reasons"? No. You can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped. If the will isn't there to change to begin with and they had to work and sacrifice for that change, it won't work. A gift that is earned with no effort or sacrifice is not valued. Most villainesses would just flush the new chance right now the drain.

----

What I want to see is a version where the time regression from the beheading of the villainess takes place, except everyone in the immediate area regresses as well. The King and queen, the prince, the villainess, the saintess, the reverse harem for the saintess, and the villainess' entire family who were beheaded with her at the time.

But nobody else.

So the king might wish to immediately kill the villainess' family, but in the past the Duke and his family was MUCH more powerful, so these two groups have to face off. The prince and the villainess are still engaged. The saintess is in some orphanage. The King and Queen realize the solid position they were in doesn't exist. The mine of gemstones hasn't been discovered.

But then there are many forces that are acting on both parties that were pushing both to fight so they could weaken the country for take over.

So when the duke basically prepares to start a civil war, the outside party who didn't regress immediately step up to help them, which seems rather sus to the duke, who puts it together that the two were manipulated against each other and so they have to reunite to defend the country.

The problem is, even if they had Iago whispering in their ears, the still were assholes to each other. The duke still abused his daughter ruining her personality. The Prince still cheated on the villainess with the saintess. The saintess suddenly realizes that becoming the saintess completely torpedos any hope of having a normal life. The reverse haram realize this is their chance to steal the saintess from the prince.

Oh... that would be grand.

Now that's a villainess story I'd love to read!

 

[TheEldritchGod]

Now that's a villainess story I'd love to read!

I always hate the fact with time regression, any abuse inflicted upon the regressor can never be addressed. YES, my father beat the shit out of me, but now I made friends with dad and we're the best of friends!

NO. That fucker BEAT YOU. How do you just let that shit go? Well... mostly because no matter what, he DIDN'T DO IT YET. So how can there be a confrontation? I'd like to see a regression where the guilt and regret isn't just the villainess. I want to see this group of people who realize they were fooled, forced to work together, even though they fuckin hate each other.

 

[Ay89AZ]

I always hate the fact with time regression, any abuse inflicted upon the regressor can never be addressed. YES, my father beat the shit out of me, but now I made friends with dad and we're the best of friends!

NO. That fucker BEAT YOU. How do you just let that shit go? Well... mostly because no matter what, he DIDN'T DO IT YET. So how can there be a confrontation? I'd like to see a regression where the guilt and regret isn't just the villainess. I want to see this group of people who realize they were fooled, forced to work together, even though they fuckin hate each other.

Exactly! The trauma is never explored or even addressed. It's like the characters just have a lil "spice" to stories by making it so. The whole R-R-R then fall in love trope in smut is also the same. Like, this is not how trauma or the human brain actually works.

 

[Macha]

Exactly! The trauma is never explored or even addressed. It's like the characters just have a lil "spice" to stories by making it so. The whole R-R-R then fall in love trope in smut is also the same. Like, this is not how trauma or the human brain actually works.

The trauma should be explored or even adressed carefully. Like in the Wolf Lord's Lady.

 

[BearlyAlive]

Stories where the girl doesn't just do a 1080 the moment she notices the the timeslip/whatever. In most cases she just goes miracously from "I'll kill that bitch and her harem of manwhores" at her first end to "I dun wrong. I be gud. No me killing/exiling!!!" the moment she wakes up not-dead/exiled and then does (in retrospect) almost exactly the same things as the one she hated so much she wanted to off her: Getting herself a harem, pushing herself in the center, etc.

In the end it boils all down to two of my most hated tropes being a crowd favourite, though. Power fantasy and harem tropes destroying any kind inkling of story that could be. /rant

I'd like to see a Villainess story where "Villainess Reincarnation" isn't the main story.
So we have the girl being offed and betrayed by everything she thought she loved and needed only to wake up traumatised and then most stories just ignore it and go full harem story. Unless they're even more scummy and place a fake Central Love Interest only to go full harem anyway.


Another thing I'd like to see would be a Villainess story where the "Villainess" (and let's be honest, in most of those stories she's actually in the right and does nothing wrong outside of trying to go against the power of PLOT. Let's not force our modern values on feudal medieval settings, please.) isn't the one being sent back in time. Maybe the "Heroine" gets sent back, maybe one of the love interests or maybe someone else.

Maybe they get sent back to support her because the Villainess was right and the "Heroine" doing her thing leads the world to ruin. Maybe the love interest wants to kill the Villainess before she does any "damage" to the "Heroine", or some other reason of semi-continental importance.

 

[Ay89AZ]

Stories where the girl doesn't just do a 1080 the moment she notices the the timeslip/whatever. In most cases she just goes miracously from "I'll kill that bitch and her harem of manwhores" at her first end to "I dun wrong. I be gud. No me killing/exiling!!!" the moment she wakes up not-dead/exiled and then does (in retrospect) almost exactly the same things as the one she hated so much she wanted to off her: Getting herself a harem, pushing herself in the center, etc.

In the end it boils all down to two of my most hated tropes being a crowd favourite, though. Power fantasy and harem tropes destroying any kind inkling of story that could be. /rant

I'd like to see a Villainess story where "Villainess Reincarnation" isn't the main story.
So we have the girl being offed and betrayed by everything she thought she loved and needed only to wake up traumatised and then most stories just ignore it and go full harem story. Unless they're even more scummy and place a fake Central Love Interest only to go full harem anyway.


Another thing I'd like to see would be a Villainess story where the "Villainess" (and let's be honest, in most of those stories she's actually in the right and does nothing wrong outside of trying to go against the power of PLOT. Let's not force our modern values on feudal medieval settings, please.) isn't the one being sent back in time. Maybe the "Heroine" gets sent back, maybe one of the love interests or maybe someone else.

Maybe they get sent back to support her because the Villainess was right and the "Heroine" doing her thing leads the world to ruin. Maybe the love interest wants to kill the Villainess before she does any "damage" to the "Heroine", or some other reason of semi-continental importance.

I love the idea where she still has to go her own way. That's just one things I have always wondered -- why must the villainess be widely hated? Why should the label villainess be on a societal level?

Everyone can be a villainess in someone else's story if they think they're the heroine. Would it not be interesting if the story was about a heroine who was actually the villainess but thought she was the heroine? And they followed the plot without much issue, being careful about becoming crazy (as is typical in the shoujo renditions) and, should, by logic, get HE. Instead they realize that it's not exactly dress-up and the plot is fake and she's not the heroine but the one who is actively sabotaging the lives of others.

Would that not be the most interesting thing to watch? Then again, I am a lover of making my characters suffer and writing tragedy (despite hating reading it) so I am very biased on wanting such a story not to have a happy ending.

I would honestly honestly just want a Villainess novel with a good ending. That does not mean that they have to be happy ever after. I just want it to be cathartic. I think that's what's missing in these stories -- solid catharsis.

If you look at the etymology of the word 'villainess,' it comes from the world 'villa,' as in a large country house. So going off of that, a possible villainess character could also be from a country noble, which would actually make sense, since genteel poverty has existed in historical times. So you might think of a villainess character who was from a fallen noble house, who's now from an orphanage. Idk, this is just connecting some dots.

Edit: Also, I did a previous thread on the villainess genre, "What Are Your Thoughts on the Villainess Stories?" Hope this provides more ideas:

What are your thoughts on villainess stories?

Yep. Question says it all. Since I'm writing my own villainess story, I'm just curious what you all think, b/c I've read quite a few villainess isekai manga and manwha, and they tend to follow a survival-oriented plot line where the goal is for the MC to avoid banishment in an otome game or...

forum.scribblehub.com

As for where the genre might go, your guess is as good as mine. There's so much potential, but the repeated story elements overshadow the creativity involved. I'm also writing a villainess story, so that's why.

Yeah, I am just thinking if this will become a Twilight thing -- where the market will oversaturate to the point it will decline sharply and rendered sub-culture goo until something rises from the ashes and re-invents it. I am not keeping up with the resultant Twilight goo so I can't say for certain that that's happened for that. I have seen some of the shounen storylines also being forced into a similar corner when the martial arts gakuen thing came about but then it exploded when people were forced to re-invent and revisit some of the tropes.

On a side note, I've added your stories to my reading list!