Writing Isekai MC not reacting to slavery

BenJepheneT

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now, i completely get what you are saying fam. Slavery in light novels isnt usually depicted in its truest sense. At most its normally a bit of sex slavery, a bit of beating. But not often do you find them being buried alive to accompany their masters or to guard positions of import for all eternity. You dont see them worked to death in salt mines or being used as lab rats, bait, as game to be hunted for sport.

But the absolute fact of the matter is the other side is right too. If they dont fight, it IS 100% their fault. Not for being slaves, but for continuing to be slaves. Its not like they automatically become free or anything, but if a person doesnt try to escape then whose fucking fault is it for staying that way? Theirs. I totally get that they may feel its hopeless, but at the same time they cant just sit with their thumbs up their asses and take being abused or treated like objects without AT LEAST trying to stand up for themselves and plan a way out. You can call it victim blaming all you want. Sometimes it is, however, on the victim to decide whether to keep being a victim or not. Saying otherwise is just bullshit. Someone walks up to you and punches you for no reason and you just let them beat you to a pulp without ever trying to defend yourself. Who decided to let that happen? You. You cant control other people's actions, but you can control yours. Whether you win or lose is besides the point

No one is saying its easy. Or fast. But come on. Its your life. You REALLY dont like something, stand the fuck up and at the very least try to change it. You may not succeed, but at least you can say you did all you could. THEN its not your fault. Maybe you weren't up to the task. Not smart or strong enough. We cant blame you for that. You can, however, be blamed for laying down and taking whatever people throw at you without ever having attempted to fight back at all. Unless you dont have any hands or feet or are mentally handicapped what excuse do you have? None.

People always say to take responsibility for your actions. But you know what, pal? You need to take responsibility for your inaction too.

That said, not all slaves are equal and slaves who were made into slaves for committing crimes for no good reason other than being a dick deserve what they get.

Also yes most authors here probably wouldnt write about that kinda stuff. I probably wouldn't, or would at least gloss over it, but thats just due to the nature of my stories just being about having a good time. I wouldnt call stories like that boring tho. I mean thats just a subjective view, after all. At most it just doesnt fit with what a majority of readers here are looking for.
 

Ral

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now, i completely get what you are saying fam. Slavery in light novels isnt usually depicted in its truest sense. At most its normally a bit of sex slavery, a bit of beating. But not often do you find them being buried alive to accompany their masters or to guard positions of import for all eternity. You dont see them worked to death in salt mines or being used as lab rats, bait, as game to be hunted for sport.

But the absolute fact of the matter is the other side is right too. If they dont fight, it IS 100% their fault. Not for being slaves, but for continuing to be slaves. Its not like they automatically become free or anything, but if a person doesnt try to escape then whose fucking fault is it for staying that way? Theirs. I totally get that they may feel its hopeless, but at the same time they cant just sit with their thumbs up their asses and take being abused or treated like objects without AT LEAST trying to stand up for themselves and plan a way out. You can call it victim blaming all you want. Sometimes it is, however, on the victim to decide whether to keep being a victim or not. Saying otherwise is just bullshit. Someone walks up to you and punches you for no reason and you just let them beat you to a pulp without ever trying to defend yourself. Who decided to let that happen? You. You cant control other people's actions, but you can control yours. Whether you win or lose is besides the point

No one is saying its easy. Or fast. But come on. Its your life. You REALLY dont like something, stand the fuck up and at the very least try to change it. You may not succeed, but at least you can say you did all you could. THEN its not your fault. Maybe you weren't up to the task. Not smart or strong enough. We cant blame you for that. You can, however, be blamed for laying down and taking whatever people throw at you without ever having attempted to fight back at all. Unless you dont have any hands or feet or are mentally handicapped what excuse do you have? None.

People always say to take responsibility for your actions. But you know what, pal? You need to take responsibility for your inaction too.

That said, not all slaves are equal and slaves who were made into slaves for committing crimes for no good reason other than being a dick deserve what they get.

Also yes most authors here probably wouldnt write about that kinda stuff. I probably wouldn't, or would at least gloss over it, but thats just due to the nature of my stories just being about having a good time. I wouldnt call stories like that boring tho. I mean thats just a subjective view, after all. At most it just doesnt fit with what a majority of readers here are looking for.
Your example about being punched is such a horrible analogy.

You provide an example of a typical point of view of a victim blamer.

One of this is making an assumption that these victims didn't try to fight or assume that the victims can actually do something against their situation. This is the very typical assumption a victim blamer makes. The thing is, they are just that assumptions.

Another is of course to assume that the it is something that the victim deserves. They are criminals or something or they did something that result to this. The thing is, you really don't know that. They might, but they as well might not be.

Of course, victim blamers often leave the perpetrator without blame or even provide support to them.
 

CupcakeNinja

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Your example about being punched is such a horrible analogy.

You provide an example of a typical point of view of a victim blamer.

One of this is making an assumption that these victims didn't try to fight or assume that the victims can actually do something against their situation. This is the very typical assumption a victim blamer makes. The thing is, they are just that assumptions.

Another is of course to assume that the it is something that the victim deserves. They are criminals or something or they did something that result to this. The thing is, you really don't know that. They might, but they as well might not be.

Of course, victim blamers often leave the perpetrator without blame or even provide support to them.
Yet you're making the assumption they did. Also you didnt read my comment well, or simply didnt understand it. Why? Because I CLEARLY said "if you at least made the effort, then you couldn't be blamed. Win, or lose" Well im paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it.

And you also assume they cant do anything. FIne. WHY cant they do anything? Because i also clearly stated that unless they dont have any arms or legs or are mentally handicapped, then they have no excuse for having not at least tried to fight back. Tho maybe i should have added another reason like protecting family members, but thats not a situation where they cant. Just that they have a reason, any reason really, not to, Which isnt the same at all.

I dont blame the "victims". i dont give a single fuck about labels like that. I blame the PERSON. like i said, take some fucking responsibility for yourself. Dont give me no bullshit like they cant. As i said, unless they have serious bodily impairments, they can. And if they did try, then i wont blame them at all.

MAYBE you could say, "well they should keep trying" but no im not that strict even if i do think that people shouldnt give up in that sort of situation. Im lenient because i understand they are only human.

Now as for the perpetrator, of course i blame them too. For being a fucking cunt. But i cant blame a cunt for being a cunt, because thats what cunts do. They be cunts. Hate them for it, but dont act like we could have expected anything else.

The reason people "victim blame" is because its always all about the victim in the first place. Something happens to you. How do you react? You are all that matters. You. Your choices. My analogy was simple but that doesn't mean it was wrong and if you thought it was then you should've explain how. So what if its not the same situation? Its the same concept. Shit happens to you. What the fuck do you do? Take it? Or attempt fighting back? Its all on you. If you never tried standing up for yourself whenever a new obstacle comes your way, or say you cant do anything when you have no serious condition that legit prevents you from doing anything....then guess what? You carry some blame with you for whatever happens to you, and thats a fact.

Again, cant ever blame a person who DID try. Only if they didn't. I gave my thoughts about both types of people in the first comment so really i guess im just repeating myself but sometimes people just latch onto one specific sentence or paragraph so i gotta explain shit a second time. Not that i mind, i feel i can explain myself better the second time around, or just expand on what i said. Sometimes i dont say everything i wanted to the first time cuz then it would be like five pages long. Im a long winded mfker
 

Ral

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Yet you're making the assumption they did. Also you didnt read my comment well, or simply didnt understand it. Why? Because I CLEARLY said "if you at least made the effort, then you couldn't be blamed. Win, or lose" Well im paraphrasing, but that was the gist of it.
I understand you very well. There are just problems with what you said.
And you also assume they cant do anything.
I didn't. I just take a wider view. They might be able to do something, they might not. I don't really know. I can't know. Why would you say that they can do something? How would you know?
FIne. WHY cant they do anything? Because i also clearly stated that unless they dont have any arms or legs or are mentally handicapped, then they have no excuse for having not at least tried to fight back. Tho maybe i should have added another reason like protecting family members, but thats not a situation where they cant. Just that they have a reason, any reason really, not to, Which isnt the same at all.
Note that you changed my statement from "actually do something against their situation" to "can't do anything". There is a difference. Say, you lost your sight by fire crackers or something that destroyed your eyes. Can you do anything? Yes, there are a lot things you can do to live without your eyes. Can you do something to reverse the damage and gain your eyes back? Nothing . . . well, at least at the present, the medicine is not capable of doing that yet.

They can do something yes, but can they do something to escape their situation and make things better? I don't really know.
I dont blame the "victims". i dont give a single fuck about labels like that. I blame the PERSON.
These slaves aren't victims? There is no such thing as a victim? What are you trying to say here? What do you mean when you say you don't use labels like victims but use person instead? What difference exactly would that make?
like i said, take some fucking responsibility for yourself. Dont give me no bullshit like they cant. As i said, unless they have serious bodily impairments, they can. And if they did try, then i wont blame them at all.
And I didn't give an excuse, but just I poke a loophole in your statement. How would you know if they did or did not try? I surely can't, can you?
Now as for the perpetrator, of course i blame them too. For being a fucking cunt. But i cant blame a cunt for being a cunt, because thats what cunts do. They be cunts. Hate them for it, but dont act like we could have expected anything else.
I'm confused. You blame them too but you don't blame them for what they did? They aren't at fault for doing what they do because it is what you expect they would do? We could dislike or hate these people for their behavior but we couldn't blame them for their behavior? What are you trying to say here?
The reason people "victim blame" is because its always all about the victim in the first place.
Huh? When is it all about the victim? Why should you blame the victims because its all about the victim? I mean, they have nothing to do about what you focused on. If you focused on them it is because you choose to.
Something happens to you. How do you react? You are all that matters. You. Your choices.
The terms you use are so broad.

Why would we blame the victim because they can make choices? I mean, the perpetrators do make choices too?

And things happen to perpetrators too. Something happens, you find a slave being sold in the market, should you a) buy the slave or b) do something against it or c) do nothing. You choose a) and become one of the perpetrators, a slaver. Your choice.
My analogy was simple but that doesn't mean it was wrong and if you thought it was then you should've explain how. So what if its not the same situation? Its the same concept.
It is not the same concept. A lot of the dynamics are not the same. You are oversimplifying things.
Shit happens to you. What the fuck do you do? Take it? Or attempt fighting back? Its all on you. If you never tried standing up for yourself whenever a new obstacle comes your way, or say you cant do anything when you have no serious condition that legit prevents you from doing anything....then guess what? You carry some blame with you for whatever happens to you, and thats a fact.
Okay, there is a shift here. You initially said that it is 100% their fault, now it is partially their fault. While I agree that in such situation the victim has some fault in their situation, this is not what you initially said. This is not what I'm debating against.
Again, cant ever blame a person who DID try. Only if they didn't. I gave my thoughts about both types of people in the first comment so really i guess im just repeating myself but sometimes people just latch onto one specific sentence or paragraph so i gotta explain shit a second time. Not that i mind, i feel i can explain myself better the second time around, or just expand on what i said. Sometimes i dont say everything i wanted to the first time cuz then it would be like five pages long. Im a long winded mfker
That is okay. I'm like that too. That is why we discuss things.
 
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CupcakeNinja

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1 I understand you very well. It is exactly what victim blaming is.

2I didn't. I just take a wider view. They might be able to do something, they might not. I don't really know. Why would you say that they can do something? How would you know?

3 Note that you changed my statement from "actually do something against their situation" to "can't do anything". There is a difference. Say, you lost your sight by fire crackers or something that destroyed your eyes. Can you do anything? Yes, there are a lot things you can do to live without your eyes. Can you do something to reverse the damage and gain your eyes back? Nothing . . . well, at least at the present, the medicine is not capable of doing that yet.

They can do something yes, but can they do something to escape their situation? I don't really know.

4 These slaves aren't victims? There is no such thing as a victim? What are you trying to say here? What do you mean when you say you don't use labels like victims but use person instead? What difference exactly would that make?

5 And I didn't give an excuse, but just I poke a loophole in your statement. How would you know if they did or did not try? I surely can't, can you?

6 I'm confused. You blame them too but you don't blame them for what they did? They aren't at fault for doing what they do because it is what you expect they would do? We could dislike or hate these people for their behavior but we couldn't blame them for their behavior? What are you trying to say here?

7 Huh? When is it all about the victim? Why should they blame the victims because its all about the victim? I mean, they have nothing to do about what you focused on. If you focused on them it is because you choose to.

8 The terms you use are so broad.

Why would we blame the victim because they can make choices? I mean, the perpetrators do make choices too?

And things happen to perpetrators too. They find a slave being sold, should they a) buy the slave or b) do something against it or c) do nothing. They choose a) and become perpetrators.

9 It is not the same concept. A lot of the dynamics are not the same. You are oversimplifying things.

10 Okay, there is a shift here. You initially said that it is 100% their fault, now it is partially their fault. While I agree that in such situation the victim has some fault in their situation, this is not what you initially said. This is not what I'm debating against.

11 That is okay. I'm like that too. That is why we discuss things.
The numbers just represent the paragraphs you made. I may not address all of them tho. Sorry this came so late, just got buried under other replies.
1

2 im not sure there's a point to asking that. How are you sure they cant do anything? I could ask that, too. Its simply that under normal circumstances, people usually can. They just convince themselves they cant and lose motivation. Maybe they cant escape. But if you say they can do absolutely nothing that'd be wrong. So long as they aren't invalids, a person normally has the ability to change something or at least try something. Are we talking magic, or what? I mean i have just been thinking about normal slavery all this time. If we talking slavery magic then maybe their options are more limited. It would be a very rare thing for them to be completely devoid of all forms or retaliation, however.

3 I cant remember your exact wording. If you said something like "you dont know if they can actually do something" then thats essentially the same as implying you think they may not be able to do anything, even if thats not what you think in reality. You may have simply been pointing out that they might not have been able to do anything, but like i already say that is a very rare possibility. I see few situations in which they cant try to do something about their situation. As i keep saying, unless they physically cant at all. In which case they'd be killed anyway, right?

4 its not about whether they can. Its about whether they make the effort.

5 i never said i know. I only spoke about my opinon for both sets of people who did do something and those who didn't. Its not like we have any xample to go off of here, no one is giving us a scenario. So im just saying that either way, these are my opinons for both categories of people.

6 What i mean is they are at fault for making slaves or whatever, but im not gonna hold that against them....at least not in the way you think...its hard to explain. Like, yeah, punish them. But they are secondary here? I think of them more as obstacles rather than living people and they aren't really the focus. I'll explain why below somewhere.

7 Nvm then i can explain from here haha. Well first off cuz the topic of the discussion was never really about the people making them slaves. Second and more importantly cuz the victims are "us" dude. Im looking at it from that kinda angle. As for what i mean by "your choice is all that matters" its....well because thats it. In life no one else's choices matter except "yours" get it? Since you are the only absolute. Remember the "i think therefore i am" line that we see so often? Thats sorta what im talking about. The world wouldn't exist if we weren't alive to experience it, can that not be said? Does that, then, not mean the world exists solely because of "me"?

And since that's the case...fuck you. fuck your family, fuck your dogs, fuck everyone who isnt me or someone I myself actually care for. You dont matter worth a damn, you only have as much value as I choose to give you.

And likewise i and everyone else only have as much value as YOU give to US. Not tryna sound mean, but you get the point yeah?

All this is just to say that this is why only "my" or in this case the "victim's" choices matter. Everyone in the world has this right to selfishness since from their perspective everything in creation only exist because they exist.

Everything hard in life is just an obstacle, even the people who do bad stuff to them. I as an outsider looking in can say all this about the victims. They will be much more biased themselves, i'm sure, and not have the same mindset.

The realization that im the only person in the world who truly matters, at least from my own perspective since i cant even be totally sure you exist, isnt something most people will probably achieve. Not that its actually an achievement pe se. Im not gonna claim to be enlightened or anything when im not even high right now. Like i said, just more of a mindset
.
8 Why do you care about the perpetrators? This isnt about them. This isn't happening to them. its happening "to you." Bud, i might hate and resent the people who do shit to me, but im not going to worry about them. I'll worry about myself, and focus on myself. I do that first and foremost. if i want revenge later thats also just about me and my desires and dealing with them is just a secondary objective.

9 alright how isnt it the same tho? someone is getting fucked in both scenarios, someone is fucking them up in both scenarios one way or another. And in both scenarios the person being fucked with has to decide how to handle the situation they find themselves in. No reason they cant be explained simply. We.have too many unknowns otherwise. You can tell me im wrong all you want but it aint gonna matter to anyone if you dont explain why, exactly. Saying its "too simple" doesnt really say anything, now does it?

10 I should've said, "its 100% their fault that this continues to happen to them if they dont even try to change it" But its not their fault its happening to them in the first place... presumably. I say so to leave room for their actions and the consequences of their choices. And at the same time, as we've covered multiple times, if they seriously cant do anything they dont have any responsibility, yeah? Since they cant do anything about it. Hm. These are two different situations...well i dont think thats exactly the right word tho.... even if they are connected. So treating them different is expected. One is about someone doing something to them. The second is about them responding. Oh, maybe the word is sequence?

11 Yeah its good to clarify and expand. I also realize you may not understand my thoughts of some of these matters due to the nature of how i think of them. I doubt many people would be able to readily wrap their head around the whole "the world exists for my sake" thing. Its also fine if we dont agree, i was never tryna convince you. I never try to convince anyone of anything when i get into discussions like these, actually. Im just explaining my own thoughts. I've actually been called closed minded before too because of that, which I think is a lie. Its just i dont agree with them. A lot of my discussions are of opinion in nature, too, so why would i have to change mine and they dont? Closed mindedness is willful ignorance and i dont just ignore facts so i dunno where they come off saying things like that. But i digress.
 

Thor

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The numbers just represent the paragraphs you made. I may not address all of them tho. Sorry this came so late, just got buried under other replies.
1

2 im not sure there's a point to asking that. How are you sure they cant do anything? I could ask that, too. Its simply that under normal circumstances, people usually can. They just convince themselves they cant and lose motivation. Maybe they cant escape. But if you say they can do absolutely nothing that'd be wrong. So long as they aren't invalids, a person normally has the ability to change something or at least try something. Are we talking magic, or what? I mean i have just been thinking about normal slavery all this time. If we talking slavery magic then maybe their options are more limited. It would be a very rare thing for them to be completely devoid of all forms or retaliation, however.

3 I cant remember your exact wording. If you said something like "you dont know if they can actually do something" then thats essentially the same as implying you think they may not be able to do anything, even if thats not what you think in reality. You may have simply been pointing out that they might not have been able to do anything, but like i already say that is a very rare possibility. I see few situations in which they cant try to do something about their situation. As i keep saying, unless they physically cant at all. In which case they'd be killed anyway, right?

4 its not about whether they can. Its about whether they make the effort.

5 i never said i know. I only spoke about my opinon for both sets of people who did do something and those who didn't. Its not like we have any xample to go off of here, no one is giving us a scenario. So im just saying that either way, these are my opinons for both categories of people.

6 What i mean is they are at fault for making slaves or whatever, but im not gonna hold that against them....at least not in the way you think...its hard to explain. Like, yeah, punish them. But they are secondary here? I think of them more as obstacles rather than living people and they aren't really the focus. I'll explain why below somewhere.

7 Nvm then i can explain from here haha. Well first off cuz the topic of the discussion was never really about the people making them slaves. Second and more importantly cuz the victims are "us" dude. Im looking at it from that kinda angle. As for what i mean by "your choice is all that matters" its....well because thats it. In life no one else's choices matter except "yours" get it? Since you are the only absolute. Remember the "i think therefore i am" line that we see so often? Thats sorta what im talking about. The world wouldn't exist if we weren't alive to experience it, can that not be said? Does that, then, not mean the world exists solely because of "me"?

And since that's the case...fuck you. fuck your family, fuck your dogs, fuck everyone who isnt me or someone I myself actually care for. You dont matter worth a damn, you only have as much value as I choose to give you.

And likewise i and everyone else only have as much value as YOU give to US. Not tryna sound mean, but you get the point yeah?

All this is just to say that this is why only "my" or in this case the "victim's" choices matter. Everyone in the world has this right to selfishness since from their perspective everything in creation only exist because they exist.

Everything hard in life is just an obstacle, even the people who do bad stuff to them. I as an outsider looking in can say all this about the victims. They will be much more biased themselves, i'm sure, and not have the same mindset.

The realization that im the only person in the world who truly matters, at least from my own perspective since i cant even be totally sure you exist, isnt something most people will probably achieve. Not that its actually an achievement pe se. Im not gonna claim to be enlightened or anything when im not even high right now. Like i said, just more of a mindset
.
8 Why do you care about the perpetrators? This isnt about them. This isn't happening to them. its happening "to you." Bud, i might hate and resent the people who do shit to me, but im not going to worry about them. I'll worry about myself, and focus on myself. I do that first and foremost. if i want revenge later thats also just about me and my desires and dealing with them is just a secondary objective.

9 alright how isnt it the same tho? someone is getting fucked in both scenarios, someone is fucking them up in both scenarios one way or another. And in both scenarios the person being fucked with has to decide how to handle the situation they find themselves in. No reason they cant be explained simply. We.have too many unknowns otherwise. You can tell me im wrong all you want but it aint gonna matter to anyone if you dont explain why, exactly. Saying its "too simple" doesnt really say anything, now does it?

10 I should've said, "its 100% their fault that this continues to happen to them if they dont even try to change it" But its not their fault its happening to them in the first place... presumably. I say so to leave room for their actions and the consequences of their choices. And at the same time, as we've covered multiple times, if they seriously cant do anything they dont have any responsibility, yeah? Since they cant do anything about it. Hm. These are two different situations...well i dont think thats exactly the right word tho.... even if they are connected. So treating them different is expected. One is about someone doing something to them. The second is about them responding. Oh, maybe the word is sequence?

11 Yeah its good to clarify and expand. I also realize you may not understand my thoughts of some of these matters due to the nature of how i think of them. I doubt many people would be able to readily wrap their head around the whole "the world exists for my sake" thing. Its also fine if we dont agree, i was never tryna convince you. I never try to convince anyone of anything when i get into discussions like these, actually. Im just explaining my own thoughts. I've actually been called closed minded before too because of that, which I think is a lie. Its just i dont agree with them. A lot of my discussions are of opinion in nature, too, so why would i have to change mine and they dont? Closed mindedness is willful ignorance and i dont just ignore facts so i dunno where they come off saying things like that. But i digress.

Im just gonna throw my opinion in here too,

I think I might comprehend you line of thought and its good that you expanded on your very first statement, because that one sounded like 100% victim blaming.

"The world exists for my sake" is more or less true because if your are no more, there is no world to perceive. It might sound selfish but you wont think about anyone else if your life or well being is on the line.

I gonna try to boil down you thoughts into a short statement and correct me if I'm wrong. "Only those, who have the ability and chance to escape their situation, are to blame if their fate doesnt change."

I think that is mostly true but only if you disregard every other variable. Still, even then I wouldnt blame them for their station in life. Normally you wouldnt become a slave and continue to be a slave if the slaver doesnt have the means to enforce their will on you. The "Your choice is all that matters" doesnt apply in this specific situation because your choice gets taken away.

There are alot of scenarios how they enforce them. Be it physical, psychlogical or with threats. If you are shackled, you cant escape. If they broke your spirit, you cant escape. If they are threatening something or someone you perceive as valuable as yourself you wont try to escape. Those are just some examples, there is always more to it.

The only case where I strongly disagree with you is your statement about the perpetrators. You cant take them out of the equation. Without perpetrator there would be no victim in the first place. You should care about them, be it as the victim or as an outsider, how you care about them is up to the people in question. But like you said, the topic wasnt about the slavers specificially but you made them a topic after your statment that the victims are to blame.
 

CupcakeNinja

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Im just gonna throw my opinion in here too,

I think I might comprehend you line of thought and its good that you expanded on your very first statement, because that one sounded like 100% victim blaming.

"The world exists for my sake" is more or less true because if your are no more, there is no world to perceive. It might sound selfish but you wont think about anyone else if your life or well being is on the line.

I gonna try to boil down you thoughts into a short statement and correct me if I'm wrong. "Only those, who have the ability and chance to escape their situation, are to blame if their fate doesnt change."

I think that is mostly true but only if you disregard every other variable. Still, even then I wouldnt blame them for their station in life. Normally you wouldnt become a slave and continue to be a slave if the slaver doesnt have the means to enforce their will on you. The "Your choice is all that matters" doesnt apply in this specific situation because your choice gets taken away.

There are alot of scenarios how they enforce them. Be it physical, psychlogical or with threats. If you are shackled, you cant escape. If they broke your spirit, you cant escape. If they are threatening something or someone you perceive as valuable as yourself you wont try to escape. Those are just some examples, there is always more to it.

The only case where I strongly disagree with you is your statement about the perpetrators. You cant take them out of the equation. Without perpetrator there would be no victim in the first place. You should care about them, be it as the victim or as an outsider, how you care about them is up to the people in question. But like you said, the topic wasnt about the slavers specificially but you made them a topic after your statment that the victims are to blame.
No it doesn't bro

"A" choice certainly gets taken away, but its not as if you are out of all options.

As for the methods of keeping you a slave, yeah. But few of them leave you completely incapable of action. Shackles can be picked or broken. There are ways to get around that. So saying "cant" is wrong. You can. It just may not be in your ability, but thats very subjective so lets not go there.

Break your spirit? Yes if you allow it. Use someone against you? Thats your choice, you let them be used against you. Understandable though. Still, it was your choice to let yourself become a slave, in this case, due to your care for them. I mean you COULD have abandoned them. Just saiyan

I also said, i think, that one should never give up on their freedom. But i also said that they are human and i understand that not everyone can just somehow persevere after a traumatic event. Im lenient with people. I dont just expect them to be hardened and strong.

So on that i will say we are both right as the situation changes under certain conditions. Its just that normally you still have SOME ability to do....well something, even if it dont work. Whether you are intelligent or strong enough to escape is a wholly different matter.

And i haven't taken them out of the equation, just consideration. And i mean that as people. They are obstacles in this scenario to me, not people. Sometimes tools. We can look at things from their perspective but that seems pointless since they arent the ones being fucked with.

But anyway my point is that yeah. Life is a constant stream of choices. You may have one or two taken away, but all of them? Only if you are an invalid or die, no?

I will never accept it if people say, "you dont have a choice". Because fuck them you have thousands of choices in most any given scenario. Will they help you escape a bad situation? Maybe. Maybe not. But hell even if you were thrown in an empty room you still have hundreds of choices to make. They just might not help you at all.

So a person can rarely say they " had no choice" is all im getting at. I wont fault anyone for breaking or not being up to the task, but i will be harsh on em if and only if their first choice is to give up and stay passive cuz that just should never be the first choice. Unless its all part of a plan. Then bide your time...wait...and fuck up peoples' days.

Again this is just my weird thinking process at work. Maybe i just find comfort in the thought thst i always have a choice, even if the options dont benefit me. Seems a tad insane if im honest.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
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Messages
604
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I thought this would be dead.
2 im not sure there's a point to asking that. How are you sure they cant do anything? I could ask that, too. Its simply that under normal circumstances, people usually can. They just convince themselves they cant and lose motivation. Maybe they cant escape. But if you say they can do absolutely nothing that'd be wrong. So long as they aren't invalids, a person normally has the ability to change something or at least try something. Are we talking magic, or what? I mean i have just been thinking about normal slavery all this time. If we talking slavery magic then maybe their options are more limited. It would be a very rare thing for them to be completely devoid of all forms or retaliation, however.
Okay, you are putting words in my mouth.
3 I cant remember your exact wording. If you said something like "you dont know if they can actually do something" then thats essentially the same as implying you think they may not be able to do anything, even if thats not what you think in reality. You may have simply been pointing out that they might not have been able to do anything, but like i already say that is a very rare possibility. I see few situations in which they cant try to do something about their situation. As i keep saying, unless they physically cant at all. In which case they'd be killed anyway, right?
So you actually get it.

And again you change my wording to something entirely different. This is a Straw Man Fallacy.
4 its not about whether they can. Its about whether they make the effort.
And as I said I can't know if they did or did not make the effort. Because I don't know, I can't judge. But you seem to know somehow and judge for that. How?
5 i never said i know. I only spoke about my opinon for both sets of people who did do something and those who didn't. Its not like we have any xample to go off of here, no one is giving us a scenario. So im just saying that either way, these are my opinons for both categories of people.
So yours is just hypothetical. You judge them and blame them based on something hypothetical. This is not how it works. You can't judge things just on hypotheticals.
6 What i mean is they are at fault for making slaves or whatever, but im not gonna hold that against them....at least not in the way you think...its hard to explain. Like, yeah, punish them. But they are secondary here? I think of them more as obstacles rather than living people and they aren't really the focus. I'll explain why below somewhere.
You are confusing me even more.
7 Nvm then i can explain from here haha. Well first off cuz the topic of the discussion was never really about the people making them slaves. Second and more importantly cuz the victims are "us" dude. Im looking at it from that kinda angle. As for what i mean by "your choice is all that matters" its....well because thats it. In life no one else's choices matter except "yours" get it? Since you are the only absolute. Remember the "i think therefore i am" line that we see so often? Thats sorta what im talking about. The world wouldn't exist if we weren't alive to experience it, can that not be said? Does that, then, not mean the world exists solely because of "me"?
Okay, you are being philosophical. However, like your hypothetical scenario, its not a strong case. After all, there are opposing philosophies. We would end up arguing philosophy.

And you seem to have a wrong idea about what the quote means. The quote is Descartes's answer to the question: do we really exit? Thinking is one thing that could not be faked; thinking therefore means that you exist. Thus: I think therefore I am. Your existence is something you cannot doubt.
And since that's the case...fuck you. fuck your family, fuck your dogs, fuck everyone who isnt me or someone I myself actually care for. You dont matter worth a damn, you only have as much value as I choose to give you.

And likewise i and everyone else only have as much value as YOU give to US. Not tryna sound mean, but you get the point yeah?
I don't understand how you get to this. So you existed . . . so what?
All this is just to say that this is why only "my" or in this case the "victim's" choices matter. Everyone in the world has this right to selfishness since from their perspective everything in creation only exist because they exist.
How about the perpetretors. Theirs doesn't matter in this?
Everything hard in life is just an obstacle, even the people who do bad stuff to them. I as an outsider looking in can say all this about the victims. They will be much more biased themselves, i'm sure, and not have the same mindset.
I don't really know how you get into this direction.
The realization that im the only person in the world who truly matters, at least from my own perspective since i cant even be totally sure you exist, isnt something most people will probably achieve. Not that its actually an achievement pe se. Im not gonna claim to be enlightened or anything when im not even high right now. Like i said, just more of a mindset
More philosophizing and still I don't know how get there.
8 Why do you care about the perpetrators? This isnt about them. This isn't happening to them. its happening "to you." Bud, i might hate and resent the people who do shit to me, but im not going to worry about them. I'll worry about myself, and focus on myself. I do that first and foremost. if i want revenge later thats also just about me and my desires and dealing with them is just a secondary objective.
This isn't really about the perpetrators or the victims. It is not even about slavery. Its about what you think about written character not reacting slavery.

Still, you do focus on one thing I said but it was not about the perpetrators or the victims. It is not even about slavery. It was about victim blaming.
9 alright how isnt it the same tho? someone is getting fucked in both scenarios, someone is fucking them up in both scenarios one way or another. And in both scenarios the person being fucked with has to decide how to handle the situation they find themselves in. No reason they cant be explained simply. We.have too many unknowns otherwise. You can tell me im wrong all you want but it aint gonna matter to anyone if you dont explain why, exactly. Saying its "too simple" doesnt really say anything, now does it?
You are oversimplifying and focusing on superficial things. You didn't look at the details.

You said to many unknowns. Just because they are unknowns doesn't mean they don't matter. You can't just ignore them because you are don't know or aren't sure about them. And you surely can't replace the unknowns with hypoteticals.

Okay, you are doing the fallacy of Burden of Proof. It should be you who should prove that your statement is true, and absence of proof against it doesn't meant your statement is true. You could believe that the president is an alien and I'm sure can't prove anything against it but that doesn't mean the president is an alien just because I'm unable to provide evidence against it. And since it is you who make the statement (that the president is an alien) it is you who should provide evidence to support your statement if people question it or doubt it.

And you also do the same thing. You don't explain why exactly. Statements like "No reason they can't be explained simply" is just statements made as if their are true. Why should it only be me who should follow these standards?
10 I should've said, "its 100% their fault that this continues to happen to them if they dont even try to change it" But its not their fault its happening to them in the first place... presumably. I say so to leave room for their actions and the consequences of their choices. And at the same time, as we've covered multiple times, if they seriously cant do anything they dont have any responsibility, yeah? Since they cant do anything about it. Hm. These are two different situations...well i dont think thats exactly the right word tho.... even if they are connected. So treating them different is expected. One is about someone doing something to them. The second is about them responding. Oh, maybe the word is sequence?
Again you are doing hypotheticals. If you aren't sure, if you don't know; don't make things up.
11 Yeah its good to clarify and expand. I also realize you may not understand my thoughts of some of these matters due to the nature of how i think of them. I doubt many people would be able to readily wrap their head around the whole "the world exists for my sake" thing. Its also fine if we dont agree, i was never tryna convince you. I never try to convince anyone of anything when i get into discussions like these, actually. Im just explaining my own thoughts. I've actually been called closed minded before too because of that, which I think is a lie. Its just i dont agree with them. A lot of my discussions are of opinion in nature, too, so why would i have to change mine and they dont? Closed mindedness is willful ignorance and i dont just ignore facts so i dunno where they come off saying things like that. But i digress.
And yes, many people can't wrap their head around it because it is you philosophizing. They can have their own philosophical thoughts too and come at entirely different conclusion from yours. In turn, you can't wrap your head around theirs.

I'm also not trying to convince you. I actually just put your statements under question because I just can't agree with them just because you say them.

As for closed-mindedness, it doesn't mean ignoring facts but not willing to consider different ideas of opinions.

We actually starting with victim blaming and now we are philosophizing about various things. We seem to be stepping thing up. :ROFLMAO:
 
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Ral

Well-known member
Joined
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Messages
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133
No it doesn't bro

"A" choice certainly gets taken away, but its not as if you are out of all options.

As for the methods of keeping you a slave, yeah. But few of them leave you completely incapable of action. Shackles can be picked or broken. There are ways to get around that. So saying "cant" is wrong. You can. It just may not be in your ability, but thats very subjective so lets not go there.
You so favor hasty generalizations. So what you can be capable of action? The question is, are you capable of action to get yourself out of your situation? Is screaming for help going to help you? Is punching the cage bars going to help you? You keep making statement that sound right but don't doesn't really address the issue.

And they are slaves. They most likely be weak (like children) so they might not be physically be able to break their shackles or they don't know how to pick a lock (they might not even have seen one). And again, you are doing hypotheticals, might or might not. You are making judgments from things you aren't certain of. Armchair philosophy is easy and neat but it just doesn't hold much weight you know?
Break your spirit? Yes if you allow it. Use someone against you? Thats your choice, you let them be used against you. Understandable though. Still, it was your choice to let yourself become a slave, in this case, due to your care for them. I mean you COULD have abandoned them. Just saiyan
And you will be torutured till you die or just simply killed. Better than being slaves I guess.

Though, we are talking about blame here.
I also said, i think, that one should never give up on their freedom. But i also said that they are human and i understand that not everyone can just somehow persevere after a traumatic event. Im lenient with people. I dont just expect them to be hardened and strong.
But you could blame it 100% to them right? No one else shares the fault to what happens but themselves.
So on that i will say we are both right as the situation changes under certain conditions. Its just that normally you still have SOME ability to do....well something, even if it dont work. Whether you are intelligent or strong enough to escape is a wholly different matter.
And here is my point. How do you know if they can or can't, or if they try or didn't? If they are intelligent or strong enough? How can you be judging them for things you aren't sure or don't know? This is the issue with your statement. You are making judgement for things you aren't sure of.
And i haven't taken them out of the equation, just consideration. And i mean that as people. They are obstacles in this scenario to me, not people. Sometimes tools. We can look at things from their perspective but that seems pointless since they arent the ones being fucked with.
You are just playing with words. You haven't taken them out of the equation but you don't consider them in your discussion?

And again, you constantly shifting things around. We are asking who is at fault not who is fucked up.
But anyway my point is that yeah. Life is a constant stream of choices. You may have one or two taken away, but all of them? Only if you are an invalid or die, no?
And you shifted the topic.
I will never accept it if people say, "you dont have a choice". Because fuck them you have thousands of choices in most any given scenario. Will they help you escape a bad situation? Maybe. Maybe not. But hell even if you were thrown in an empty room you still have hundreds of choices to make. They just might not help you at all.
And shifted the topic some more.
So a person can rarely say they " had no choice" is all im getting at. I wont fault anyone for breaking or not being up to the task, but i will be harsh on em if and only if their first choice is to give up and stay passive cuz that just should never be the first choice. Unless its all part of a plan. Then bide your time...wait...and fuck up peoples' days.
But no one said that.

And again, how can you be sure that you would judge them?
Again this is just my weird thinking process at work. Maybe i just find comfort in the thought thst i always have a choice, even if the options dont benefit me. Seems a tad insane if im honest.
:ROFLMAO: Me too.
 
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Thor

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Messages
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Again this is just my weird thinking process at work. Maybe i just find comfort in the thought thst i always have a choice, even if the options dont benefit me. Seems a tad insane if im honest.

No its not insane. Its a good mindset to have as long as you are free to act in whatever way you desire. I certainly think so too when circumstance throws obstacles in my way. The point is, we have the freedom of choice.

But we are talking about people who are not free. When all of their choices they have left amount to not being free or being dead then there is no choice to make. As long as you are alive, there is hope that a time or chance will come where you can change your fate. But for people in many stories and also historicially there never came that time.

Since we were not in their place, we cant judge them for their actions or inaction but we can judge the people who put them there.

I will never accept it if people say, "you dont have a choice". Because fuck them you have thousands of choices in most any given scenario. Will they help you escape a bad situation? Maybe. Maybe not. But hell even if you were thrown in an empty room you still have hundreds of choices to make. They just might not help you at all.

But hell even if you were thrown in an empty room you still have hundreds of choices to make. They just might not dont help you at all.

An empty room with a locked door that you cant open under any circumstance will leave you at the mercy of whoever locked you in there. Thats the difference for being free or not. You could argue that said person could have done something about it beforehand but then again he wouldnt have landed in that room.

But we are way off-topic. Lets just settle on differing opinions about who is the victim or not.
 

CupcakeNinja

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Jan 1, 2019
Messages
3,066
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I thought this would be dead.

Okay, you are putting words in my mouth.

So you actually get it.

And again you change my wording to something entirely different. This is a Straw Man Fallacy.

And as I said I can't know if they did or did not make the effort. Because I don't know, I can't judge. But you seem to know somehow and judge for that. How?

So yours is just hypothetical. You judge them and blame them based on something hypothetical. This is not how it works. You can't judge things just on hypotheticals.

You are confusing me even more.

Okay, you are being philosophical. However, like your hypothetical scenario, its not a strong case. After all, there are opposing philosophies. We would end up arguing philosophy.

And you seem to have a wrong idea about what the quote means. The quote is Descartes's answer to the question: do we really exit? Thinking is one thing that could not be faked; thinking therefore means that you exist. Thus: I think therefore I am. Your existence is something you cannot doubt.

I don't understand how you get to this. So you existed . . . so what?

How about the perpetretors. Theirs doesn't matter in this?

I don't really know how you get into this direction.

More philosophizing and still I don't know how get there.

This isn't really about the perpetrators or the victims. It is not even about slavery. Its about what you think about written character not reacting slavery.

Still, you do focus on one thing I said but it was not about the perpetrators or the victims. It is not even about slavery. It was about victim blaming.

You are oversimplifying and focusing on superficial things. You didn't look at the details.

You said to many unknowns. Just because they are unknowns doesn't mean they don't matter. You can't just ignore them because you are don't know or aren't sure about them. And you surely can't replace the unknowns with hypoteticals.

Okay, you are doing the fallacy of Burden of Proof. It should be you who should prove that your statement is true, and absence of proof against it doesn't meant your statement is true. You could believe that the president is an alien and I'm sure can't prove anything against it but that doesn't mean the president is an alien just because I'm unable to provide evidence against it. And since it is you who make the statement (that the president is an alien) it is you who should provide evidence to support your statement if people question it or doubt it.

And you also do the same thing. You don't explain why exactly. Statements like "No reason they can't be explained simply" is just statements made as if their are true. Why should it only be me who should follow these standards?

Again you are doing hypotheticals. If you aren't sure, if you don't know; don't make things up.

And yes, many people can't wrap their head around it because it is you philosophizing. They can have their own philosophical thoughts too and come at entirely different conclusion from yours. In turn, you can't wrap your head around theirs.

I'm also not trying to convince you. I actually just put your statements under question because I just can't agree with them just because you say them.

As for closed-mindedness, it doesn't mean ignoring facts but not willing to consider different ideas of opinions.

We actually starting with victim blaming and now we are philosophizing about various things. We seem to be stepping thing up. :ROFLMAO:

EDIT: I already basically apologized at the end but my tone here was pretty rough. I dont mean it in a bad way, but im a colorful person so if im cussing or being a bit of an ass in how i word stuff, please dont mind it. if anything, maybe think of it as funny. or charming sentence enhancers. LIke im adding character, maybe.

its obvious you misunderstood my meaning. i didnt put shit in your mouth, you just read that wrong. I never said you said that, i simply said that i could also ask that kind of question and it would be pointless. Its also obvious you DONT understand what im saying despite you having said you did earlier. Im being pretty clear, not sure how to be MORE clear.

And...you cant know? Exactly. So what the fuck are you asking, then? I TOLD YOU i was just giving my opinions for both kinds of situations. Of fucking course i can judge based on a hypothetical. What the hell do you think this is ? Everything is hypothetical. We dont have any goddamn specific scenario. I, therefore, have created a very simple scenario and you still dont seem to understand. The fuck are we even talking about, then? Nothing? You keep saying you dont know, you dont know, and yeah. Thats true. But damn bro. We cant have a discussion about shit you dont fucking know. I am only giving opinons here. "If this, then i think..." People do that all the time, judge hypotheticals. So you coming up with bullshit like "thats not how its done REEEEEEE" Is objectively wrong. i mean im not giving very DETAILED scenarios but its enough to get the gist of my opinon in its entirety.

But you? You say you cant judge because you dont know but you must have opinions and so all you had to do was present your own what if scenario
and THEN you cant judge it. Just seems like you're running away from making a choice now. I dont say that to sound like an ass or say that IS what you're doing, thats just how it kinda feels rn.

You're telling me im not looking at details when there arent any fucking details, too. You're seriously gonna hold that against me bro? Should i create very specific ten page scenario to judge, then?

That aside, dont fuckin tell me what i know dude. i know perfectly well what that quote meant. I simply took it a step further. Hm. Maybe several, actually. If you dont understand why i went into it then i dont know if we should keep talkin' cuz i thought it was pretty clear.

You: Why does only the victim's thoughts matter tho
Me: proceeding to explain a philosophical idealogy that proposes if you can only be certain of your own existence and all else is in doubt, the world may therefore exist only because "you" believe it and/ or are aware of it and so "you" are the only one who has any power to give meaning to what you experience within the world.

Fucking hell. i coulda just explained it that way? Mfker i shoulda know my true language was Meme.

As for me proving anything, i never do that. People have used that same thing against me before. I dont get why. Im like, "bro i dont give a damn, you're the one who found grievance with whatever i said so you fucking find the evidence to support yourself. If you do maybe i'll stop being a lazy cunt and find my own evidence. TIll then kindly fuck off?"

Im very laidback and dont care to prove a single word outta my mouth. I'll only take initiative to do so if someone else does first. Is that a bad habit? yes, yes it is. I dont give a DAMN son. BIte me. Heh. You dont have to hold yourself to any standard. If neither of us cares to support any of our claims, then it dont matter. We already said we aint looking to persuade anyway, eh?

As for the closed minded stuff, meh. Maybe. But like i dunno the terms themselves rub me the wrong way. Cuz its not like we're immovable objects, you know? We can change our minds. We can. We just dont want to or dont think we have to. We have the ability tho. Just gonna be harder to convince us we should change them. Cuz depending on our values, we might think we dont have to.

I mean i can "consider" all the opinons you want but that doesnt mean i have to agree with them. No one does. Is anyone really closed minded just because they dont change their opinions? i find consideration pointless in these cases then, cuz if you end up not changing opinon people can still say, "oh you're so closed minded." See what im getting at? You lose whether you consider or not so long as you dont agree in the end

I would much prefer being called "a stubborn ass" because then its undeniably true! i'm stubborn, and im an ass sometimes too! Like here. I know my tone mighta sounded mean or whatever but i dont dislike you bro. Callin' people out of shit is what i do all the time too. Would be pretty hypocritical if i got mad over it bein' done to me.

and hells i this always happens. Discuss a serious topic like rape or slavery and wind up talking about milk or how some cultures kiss the penis of babies because doing it on the head is considered a sexual act. Or something. That last one i forgot about but it was something to that effect. Random facts never lies. My memory is just shitty. Too much weed smh

You so favor hasty generalizations. So what you can be capable of action? The question is, are you capable of action to get yourself out of your situation? Is screaming for help going to help you? Is punching the cage bars going to help you? You keep making statement that sound right but don't doesn't really address the issue.

And they are slaves. They most likely be weak (like children) so they might not be physically be able to break their shackles or they don't know how to pick a lock (they might not even have seen one). And again, you are doing hypotheticals, might or might not. You are making judgments from things you aren't certain of. Armchair philosophy is easy and neat but it just doesn't hold much weight you know?

And you will be torutured till you die or just simply killed. Better than being slaves but I guess.

Though, we are talking about blame here. 100% the victims fault.

But you could blame it 100% to them right? No one else shares the fault to what happens to them but themselves.

And here is my point. How do you know if they can or can't, or if they try or didn't? If they are intelligent or strong enough? How can you be judging them for things you aren't sure or don't know? This is the issue with your statement. You are making judgement for things you aren't sure of.

You are just playing with words. You haven't taken them out of the equation but you don't consider them in your discussion?

And again, you constantly shifting things around. We are asking who is at fault not who is fucked up.

And you shifted the topic.

And shifted the topic some more.

But no one said that not is anyone debating about that. You are so fond of changing the subject.

:ROFLMAO: Me too.
eh. I already said it in the post to the other guy, but so what if i am hypothetical? What do you expect me to do then? We dont have any specific scenario to judge so you cant justifiable say "you cant do that, you cant just judge shit based off assumptions"...but that bullshit, i can totally do that bro. People do all the time and here thats the only thing I CAN do.

I only gave a generalIzed opinion based on simplified situation. You cant hold me to the idea of "you dont know the details" since there aren't any presented. Obviously my opinons here can change based on specific scenarios.

I saw you other comment to, the most recent one. i really liked the "we can only judge the people who put them there" line. I never thought of it that way and it makes sense. Nice job mate. I was being a bit narrow there, eh? the actions of slavers can be judged much better. Objectively they are doing wrong, but subjectively we dont know WHY they became slavers so that opens a whole new can of worms if we go that route.
 
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Thor

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Aug 15, 2019
Messages
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73
As for the closed minded stuff, meh. Maybe. But like i dunno the terms themselves rub me the wrong way. Cuz its not like we're immovable objects, you know? We can change our minds. We can. We just dont want to or dont think we have to. We have the ability tho. Just gonna be harder to convince us we should change them. Cuz depending on our values, we might think we dont have to.

I mean i can "consider" all the opinons you want but that doesnt mean i have to agree with them. No one does. Is anyone really closed minded just because they dont change their opinions? i find consideration pointless in these cases then, cuz if you end up not changing opinon people can still say, "oh you're so closed minded." See what im getting at? You lose whether you consider or not so long as you dont agree in the end

A good discussions is rarely about trying to convince someone of their views but to broaden their horizon in such a way so the discussion partner comes to the same or similar conclusion. You are only stubborn or narrow-minded if you dont take differing views into consideration. But if you are actually taking the arguments of others into consideration and still are coming to the same conclusion you had before then there is nothing you can do other then to agree to disagree.

Point being, its okay for you to not agree with us (not that you need our permission :P). I, for my part, did try to offer some arguments as to why I personally dont think that the victims are to blame for their situation in any case.

I saw you other comment to, the most recent one. i really liked the "we can only judge the people who put them there" line. I never thought of it that way and it makes sense. Nice job mate. I was being a bit narrow there, eh? the actions of slavers can be judged much better. Objectively they are doing wrong, but subjectively we dont know WHY they became slavers so that opens a whole new can of worms if we go that route.

Good thing that we have judges who take the objective law and consider the why (subjective) and pass judgement accordingly. Someone who steals for their own gain will be sentenced harsher than someone who steals to not starve. But in either case they will be sentenced. The same is true for the slavers, regardless the 'why'.
 

Ral

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Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
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133
its obvious you misunderstood my meaning. i didnt put shit in your mouth, you just read that wrong. I never said you said that, i simply said that i could also ask that kind of question and it would be pointless. Its also obvious you DONT understand what im saying despite you having said you did earlier. Im being pretty clear, not sure how to be MORE clear.
But if you say they can do absolutely nothing that'd be wrong.
See?
And...you cant know? Exactly. So what the fuck are you asking, then? I TOLD YOU i was just giving my opinions for both kinds of situations.
You can question an opinion. There is nothing wrong with doing that.
Of fucking course i can judge based on a hypothetical. What the hell do you think this is ? Everything is hypothetical. We dont have any goddamn specific scenario. I, therefore, have created a very simple scenario and you still dont seem to understand. The fuck are we even talking about, then? Nothing? You keep saying you dont know, you dont know, and yeah. Thats true. But damn bro. We cant have a discussion about shit you dont fucking know. I am only giving opinons here. "If this, then i think..." People do that all the time, judge hypotheticals. So you coming up with bullshit like "thats not how its done REEEEEEE" Is objectively wrong. i mean im not giving very DETAILED scenarios but its enough to get the gist of my opinon in its entirety.
You realized it don't you? The problem with this discussion? There are no details. How could you judge anything when there is nothing to work with? I don't know, you don't know, no one knows. How could we be talking about things we don't know?

And because we don't know we make something made-up? Then we base our judgement on made-up things? What is the point?
But you? You say you cant judge because you dont know but you must have opinions and so all you had to do was present your own what if scenario
and THEN you cant judge it. Just seems like you're running away from making a choice now. I dont say that to sound like an ass or say that IS what you're doing, thats just how it kinda feels rn.
I can't make a judgement from things I know nothing of. I might have an opinion, maybe, but I don't dare put it out knowing that I have no details to work out and support it. Silence is golden in this case.
You're telling me im not looking at details when there arent any fucking details, too. You're seriously gonna hold that against me bro? Should i create very specific ten page scenario to judge, then?
You know there are no details but you still talk about it anyway despite the lack.

And even if you create a detailed scenario that is still just made-up.
That aside, dont fuckin tell me what i know dude. i know perfectly well what that quote meant. I simply took it a step further. Hm. Maybe several, actually. If you dont understand why i went into it then i dont know if we should keep talkin' cuz i thought it was pretty clear.
Then you should know where you get it wrong? It was never meant to do more than that. Everything else is of your creation.

Sure you said you already know, but I will repeat, the quote just says that you can't doubt your own existence. The fact you think is a proof of your existence. No more, no less.
You: Why does only the victim's thoughts matter tho
Me: proceeding to explain a philosophical idealogy that proposes if you can only be certain of your own existence and all else is in doubt, the world may therefore exist only because "you" believe it and/ or are aware of it and so "you" are the only one who has any power to give meaning to what you experience within the world.
Again, you are putting words in my mouth. And don't you dare deny it this time.
As for me proving anything, i never do that. People have used that same thing against me before. I dont get why. Im like, "bro i dont give a damn, you're the one who found grievance with whatever i said so you fucking find the evidence to support yourself. If you do maybe i'll stop being a lazy cunt and find my own evidence. TIll then kindly fuck off?"
And you are aggrieved that I question what you said. In the first place, it is you who put your statement against mine. It was you who have grievance with what I said, not the other way around.
Im very laidback and dont care to prove a single word outta my mouth. I'll only take initiative to do so if someone else does first. Is that a bad habit? yes, yes it is. I dont give a DAMN son. BIte me. Heh. You dont have to hold yourself to any standard. If neither of us cares to support any of our claims, then it dont matter. We already said we aint looking to persuade anyway, eh?
You did it first?

Surely you can see the irony here.
As for the closed minded stuff, meh. Maybe. But like i dunno the terms themselves rub me the wrong way. Cuz its not like we're immovable objects, you know? We can change our minds. We can. We just dont want to or dont think we have to. We have the ability tho. Just gonna be harder to convince us we should change them. Cuz depending on our values, we might think we dont have to.

I mean i can "consider" all the opinons you want but that doesnt mean i have to agree with them. No one does. Is anyone really closed minded just because they dont change their opinions? i find consideration pointless in these cases then, cuz if you end up not changing opinon people can still say, "oh you're so closed minded." See what im getting at? You lose whether you consider or not so long as you dont agree in the end
It is not about changing our minds but to broaden them.

For me, I'm not presenting any opinions but to poke how tenuous your statements are. They are based on the hypothetical and the made up things.
I would much prefer being called "a stubborn ass" because then its undeniably true! i'm stubborn, and im an ass sometimes too! Like here. I know my tone mighta sounded mean or whatever but i dont dislike you bro. Callin' people out of shit is what i do all the time too. Would be pretty hypocritical if i got mad over it bein' done to me.
Okay . . . I never said that you are closed-minded or anything. You just said people called you that.
eh. I already said it in the post to the other guy, but so what if i am hypothetical? What do you expect me to do then? We dont have any specific scenario to judge so you cant justifiable say "you cant do that, you cant just judge shit based off assumptions"...but that bullshit, i can totally do that pro. People do all the time and here thats the only thing I CAN do.
Hypothetical not hypocritical.
I only gave a generalIzed opinion based on simplified situation. You cant hold me to the idea of "you dont know the details" since there aren't any presented. Obviously my opinons here can change based on specific scenarios.
My point. It is just pointless to judge things when you don't have the details. Your opinion would change based on the details. Details that don't exist.
I saw you other comment to, the most recent one. i really liked the "we can only judge the people who put them there" line. I never thought of it that way and it makes sense. Nice job mate. I was being a bit narrow there, eh? the actions of slavers can be judged much better. Objectively they are doing wrong, but subjectively we dont know WHY they became slavers so that opens a whole new can of worms if we go that route.
Okay . . .

Thor is actually who said that . . . Well Thor already had a reply to that.
 
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AliceShiki

Magical Girl of Love and Justice
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
3,530
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The realization that im the only person in the world who truly matters, at least from my own perspective since i cant even be totally sure you exist, isnt something most people will probably achieve. Not that its actually an achievement pe se. Im not gonna claim to be enlightened or anything when im not even high right now. Like i said, just more of a mindset
I like this mindset for the most part~

I wouldn't say "only" person, but like... I only care for me and the people close to me... I just can't bring myself to care about people I know nothing about.

And even then, my worries are primarily related to me anyways, I can worry about family and stuff, but their needs always come second to mine... Though I still try to help them in whatever way I can~
 

CupcakeNinja

Pervert Supreme
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
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See?

You can question an opinion. There is nothing wrong with doing that.

You realized it don't you? The problem with this discussion? There are no details. How could you judge anything when there is nothing to work with? I don't know, you don't know, no one knows. How could we be talking about things we don't know?

And because we don't know we make something made-up? Then we base our judgement on made-up things? What is the point?

I can't make a judgement from things I know nothing of. I might have an opinion, maybe, but I don't dare put it out knowing that I have no details to work out and support it. Silence is golden in this case.

You know there are no details but you still talk about it anyway despite the lack.

And even if you create a detailed scenario that is still just made-up.

Then you should know where you get it wrong? It was never meant to do more than that. Everything else is of your creation.

Sure you said you already know, but I will repeat, the quote just says that you can't doubt your own existence. The fact you think is a proof of your existence. No more, no less.

Again, you are putting words in my mouth. And don't you dare deny it this time.

And you are aggrieved that I question what you said. In the first place, it is you who put your statement against mine. It was you who have grievance with what I said, not the other way around.

You did it first?

Surely you can see the irony here.

It is not about changing our minds but to broaden them.

For me, I'm not presenting any opinions but to poke how tenuous your statements are. They are based on the hypothetical and the made up things.

Okay . . . I never said that you are closed-minded or anything. You just said people called you that.

Hypothetical not hypocritical.

My point. It is just pointless to judge things when you don't have the details. Your opinion would change based on the details. Details that don't exist.

Okay . . .

Thor is actually who said that . . . Well Thor already had a reply to that.
Im not gonna bother replying to all that. But no i still didnt put words in your mouth, that was just a question you asked basically.

That aside, you are kinda annoying me bro not gonna lie. Cuz you keep saying shit like, "cant judge what i dont know the details of" when i literally said we gotta present our own situations to give our opinions on in this case specifically cuz we didnt have much to go off of.

The what if situations. Maybe our exact opinions change depending on all the known variables, but is it really that dn difficult for you to give a general idea of your opinion? You are, in essence, saying you cant give any opinions on anything. Know why? Because its impossible for you to know every goddn variable effecting every situation unless you devise it yourself. Before you say it again, no, thats also note putting words in your mouth thats just me coming to a conclusion based off your responses.

Again it just seems like you are running away from giving any opinion on anything. At the very least i gave MY opinions on certain situations having to do with the theme of this discussion. Havent seem any of yours so its like talking to a walk. I dont care if you question my opinions but it is rritating feelin' like the only one contributing more tham just questions to the convo.

But whatever my dude. Again im not gonna get mad about it. Doesnt really matter

And yeah haha i meant that last thing to be quoting Thor's reply but got yours instead. Sorry.

Now onto much, much more important questions: what do you think about slime girls? Be warned that there IS a right answer and the wrong one will result in a beheading \[T]/
 

ForestDweller

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 18, 2020
Messages
819
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Im not gonna bother replying to all that. But no i still didnt put words in your mouth, that was just a question you asked basically.

That aside, you are kinda annoying me bro not gonna lie. Cuz you keep saying shit like, "cant judge what i dont know the details of" when i literally said we gotta present our own situations to give our opinions on in this case specifically cuz we didnt have much to go off of.

The what if situations. Maybe our exact opinions change depending on all the known variables, but is it really that dn difficult for you to give a general idea of your opinion? You are, in essence, saying you cant give any opinions on anything. Know why? Because its impossible for you to know every goddn variable effecting every situation unless you devise it yourself. Before you say it again, no, thats also note putting words in your mouth thats just me coming to a conclusion based off your responses.

Again it just seems like you are running away from giving any opinion on anything. At the very least i gave MY opinions on certain situations having to do with the theme of this discussion. Havent seem any of yours so its like talking to a walk. I dont care if you question my opinions but it is rritating feelin' like the only one contributing more tham just questions to the convo.

But whatever my dude. Again im not gonna get mad about it. Doesnt really matter

And yeah haha i meant that last thing to be quoting Thor's reply but got yours instead. Sorry.

Now onto much, much more important questions: what do you think about slime girls? Be warned that there IS a right answer and the wrong one will result in a beheading \[T]/

I don't like them.
 

YuriDoggo

Angery Doggo >ᴗ<
Joined
Mar 23, 2019
Messages
729
Points
133
This thread makes me want a Thumbs down reaction because I'm not angry, I just severely disagree.
 
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