PATREON COULD DISSAPPEAR

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Kldran

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Jemini

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And that's a conversation you can have. But again, how does this qualify as genocide? Also, according to this article, it was illegal when they did this. Attention was brought to it, and the practice has or will be reformed. It also doesn't change the fact that Democrats set up a death machine through perverse incentives with their catch-and-release policy and Trump dismantled it. Maybe with some mishandling at the beginning, but those were bugs and not features of the system.
 
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Kldran

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the practice has or will be reformed.
Um... if the people in charge wanted the practice to stop, they could make it stop immediately. The only reason there is a question as to whether or not it will stop, is because the people in charge are refusing to change the policy unless the courts force them to. Also: Why do I need to prove there's genocide? My entire argument is that worse is going on than what the SJWs are doing. If your best argument is "It's not GENOCIDE!" you've got a bad argument.
 

Jemini

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Um... if the people in charge wanted the practice to stop, they could make it stop immediately. The only reason there is a question as to whether or not it will stop, is because the people in charge are refusing to change the policy unless the courts force them to. Also: Why do I need to prove there's genocide? My entire argument is that worse is going on than what the SJWs are doing. If your best argument is "It's not GENOCIDE!" you've got a bad argument.
So are you. Did you notice that the US has been committing genocide according to geneva convention definitions for a while already? You keep talking about how one group will eventually do bad things, that are already being done by other groups.

You're the one who set the terms of this discussion. Don't get mad at me for holding you to your own terms. You made the positive claim, the US has been committing genocide. You have failed to prove it. Do you concede this point?

I'm trying to make you realize you are in the middle of an internet rage right now and not attempting to understand the counter points to your arguments at all. Very Trumpian in my opinion.
 
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Kldran

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You made the positive claim, the US has been committing genocide. You have failed to prove it. Do you concede this point?
I did explain the argument fully: Genocide definition includes separating children from parents in a way that targets a group. That is happening in ICE. You insist it's only illegals it happens to, but that's not a denial, only a narrowing of who's being targeted. So, no, I don't concede. As far as I can tell, you've just made a bunch of excuses for bad behavior by insisting it's necessary and not really that bad.
 

Jemini

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I did explain the argument fully: Genocide definition includes separating children from parents in a way that targets a group. That is happening in ICE. You insist it's only illegals it happens to, but that's not a denial, only a narrowing of who's being targeted. So, no, I don't concede. As far as I can tell, you've just made a bunch of excuses for bad behavior by insisting it's necessary and not really that bad.

My counter-point to this was that the purpose of doing this was to save them from death or child sex slavery. That is a mitigating factor that effectively removes it from the definition. Separation from parents is a standard method of preventing child abuse. Saving a child from death or sex slavery qualifies as saving them from child abuse. Also, if the target group is not racial and instead "those who willingly expose their children to risk of death or sex slavery," then it is not targeted by racial group and not genocide.

EDIT: You can argue this is playing with definitions, but you are going to have to argue against the point that crossing the border has a high likelihood of death, rape, or human trafficking. Under those circumstances, it's a reasonable way to frame the situation.

Re-EDIT: Also, once again, I agree the application was poorly handled. Loosing children in the system is disasterously bad, and worthy of all the criticism you want to give it. However, it does not remove from the fact that these parents are exposing their children to horrific situations that should be discouraged in the strongest effective and reasonable way available. Also, Trump ended the democratic policy of the 24 hour release rule by executive action, thus ending the child separation while also ending the catch-and-release policy that was encouraging this action, thus a more humane way to discourage this behavior.

Final Edit: I would also like to point out that the intention (although poorly implemented) was to return the children to the parent's care once the asylum case was finished processing. Thus, once again, removing this situation from the definition of genocide.
 
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Kldran

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EDIT: You can argue this is playing with definitions, but you are going to have to argue against the point that crossing the border has a high likelihood of death, rape, or human trafficking. Under those circumstances, it's a reasonable way to frame the situation.
I don't see how the dangers of crossing the border justify doing bad things to people who do. They've already done it. You aren't saving them from the horrors of the crossing. You just offer them new horrors.

I also have no idea why you think this horrible treatment will be an effective deterrent. It'd make more sense to spend money on a propaganda campaign, or something like that. We have plenty of evidence from criminal studies that harsh punishments are a poor crime deterrent. So I'm not going to believe your claim that subjecting immigrants to horrible conditions will somehow save lives.
 

Jemini

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I don't see how the dangers of crossing the border justify doing bad things to people who do. They've already done it. You aren't saving them from the horrors of the crossing. You just offer them new horrors.

I also have no idea why you think this horrible treatment will be an effective deterrent.

Simple, it ends catch-and-release. Before the democrats implemented the catch-and-release policy with illegal immigration, the overwhelming majority of illegal immigration was single men. After the democrats made this change, it was families with children. Single men who want to risk themselves can do so fully informed, but don't bring your children into it.

It's not about punishing the people who get here (although I do believe someone made that bad choice of words, it's not the key concern.) The idea is to end the perverse incentive that might as well be a flashing sign that says "bring your children and expose them to danger, you will be rewarded."

Again, this is why I keep emphasizing democrats and the catch-and-release policy. Also, you might have missed it, but Trump eliminated that policy by executive action after the issues with child separation became obvious. This further proves the idea was not child separation as punishment, it was closing off the perverse incentive.
 

Tejoka

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Here's the thing, how do you know who's going to be the next Hitler? You don't, which means you just ban someone on suspicion of harboring negative intent. Then, once that decision has been made, you ban supporters of those people. Then, you start banning people who sound like they might be supporters of those people. Then, you start banning people who other people have reported to be supporters of those kinds of people, based on no or little evidence.

Once the slope has slipped to this point, it's easy for a secret Fascist to get in control of the banning mechanism and start shutting down all descent. And suddenly, you have a Fascist shutting down everyone's free speech, and they rise unopposed to power. Then, once they've been in power for a while, they push the envelope farther, and eventually start killing their political rivals or people they label undesirable.
You can easily fabricate Hitler Parallels for literally every single world leader in history. There's really only one point that matters though. Do they have "Brown Shirts?" No potential Hitler reincarnate can come to power without Brown Shirts.

FYI: Brown Shirts are fanatical volunteer civilians who will finger-point out anyone who says anything even slightly against "the party" or "the ideology," report it, and likely even take voluntary action to vandalize the physical property or threaten the livelihood of common people who attempt to speak up in dissent.

So far as spotting who has brown shirts backing them, it's a simple 2 step process. Step 1. Identify whether or not there are active Brown Shirts in the community. To do this, look for whether or not people are afraid to voice their political opinions. Step 2. If you have identified the presence of Brown Shirts with step 1, then look for what political party is NOT afraid to voice their political opinions.
Brown shirts pave the way for systematic extermination and genocide. They are the archetects of death. They are the VITAL and indispensable piece that allows genocide to happen.

Sorry, there were more quotes I wanted to reply to, but this is already getting too large.

As someone from Germany who's interested in our history, reading the comparisons thrown around here is, bluntly, sickening.
I've been to a concentration camp memorial. It's not something you easily forget. And claiming that 'leftists' are somehow doing the same thing or leading up to it, let alone comparing "woke" (whatever that means) to fascism is absurd. It's extremely disrespectful to the victims.
The Holocaust was a horrible tragedy that happened because of specific circumstances. I'm not denying that other genocides happened, but you can't just lump them all together, because the circumstances, causes and events are different. (Also, small correction: the armenian genocide happened before the Holocaust, and the country that perpetrated it certainly wasn't politically left.)

Whatever you want to say about "brown shirts" (a term I haven't heard before), they were just one aspect of the regime. I'm not saying people like that didn't exist or didn't play a part. They're probably a staple of every authoritarian regime. But they certainly weren't the deciding factor in Hitler's rise.
Hitler came to power because there was no one better, basically, he came as the latest in a succession of several Reichskanzler in short order, and the NSDAP's coalition partner thought they could "handle" him. Then, the Nazi regime really started by passing a law restricting civil rights. Basically, they exploited the constitution of the Weimar Republic, using the Reichspräsident's power of passing decrees in an emergency, and intimidating members of parliament into signing those bills.
What I mean to say is, the rise of the Nazis was, among other factors, because of a long-lasting crisis situation and instability, and people messing with the constitution.

Comparing that to banning some people is ridiculous. Also, the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy. Just because you ban people saying certain things, doesn't mean you have to ban people saying other, less extreme things.

Also, today's Germany has some very strict laws about not displaying Nazi iconography and the like. I don't know how rules against hate speech compare, honestly. But does that mean we're in danger of getting another Hitler, because we're not taking the most literal interpretation of free speech? Absolutely not. (In fact, in the democracy index, Germany seems to do better than, say, the US).

I can't comment on the immigration and asylum thing, except noting it sounds like the whole system badly needs to be reformed either way. Which, it seems, is unlikely to happen.
Edit: and from the way I heard it reported, Trump ended it more likely because of all the pushback it was getting, not after "the issue became obvious." It was already obvious.
 

Alverost

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Not going to make any comment on the things here besides that you guys derailed from the original thread and majority of this is political which is against the forum rules.
 

Tejoka

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Yeah, sorry for my part, I realized that just now, too.

Back on topic.
I think the most important takeaway for authors reading this is that there is some controversy, and it's possible - although people disagree over how likely it is - that Patreon could be affected.
Perhaps it makes sense to look at alternatives. Wouldn't do any harm, anyway, right?
 
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