Alternative AG testing thread - A troubleshooting discussion and experiment

Devils.Advocate

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I think one thing to consider is that there is a certain amount of bottleneck with quest design.
:blob_hmm: :blob_hmm: :blob_hmm: :blob_hmm: :blob_hmm::blob_hmm:
How to make quest making more natural...

adds to "to think about list"

I'm really fond of the terrea write-to-grow system where you cash in your coins (that you get from posting) for new evolutions
I also like it very much, it gives value to the currency... by being something at is worked towards...:blob_hmm::blob_hmm:
 

Devils.Advocate

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How to make quest making more natural...
One thing I was thinking was that in AG Scribel City ended up being quite a lore dense are... making it easier for the player to "live" there the sense of home town is pretty strong.

For a new game, I'd like the starting area to be more marginalised...

Have hub locations, is good, but narratively... the "home"... maybe "home" could be some kind of trans-dimensional HQ?

I found, Inevitably the tavern is associated with, Scribel City... if it is built-in narratively that there is a hub that is connected every here, "home" might not be as strongly associated with Scribel.

:blob_hmm:
 

ohko

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(y)Having factions with faction goals can ensure a low maintenance overarching goal for players
^^ slowly trying to write a synopsis

Ninth Project is an original animanga virtual reality MMORPG roleplay where you play as a software developer struggling to complete the game before the launch date. Your employer recently hired you to participate in the closed alpha, but unfortunately Ninth Project Online is in a terrible state. The server utilizes cutting-edge technology light-years ahead of any competitors, but it also operates on an obscure and inscrutable engine written by a deceased genius. Conventional programming skills are useless, and you'll need to rely on a "hands-on" approach to your job.

Numerous "Sentient Artificial Intelligence" (SAI) have gone rogue on the server. While the experimental technology was originally intended to make a vibrant population of realistic NPCs and monsters, the SAI are far more self-aware than anyone expected. You will need to subjugate them and manually revise their codex to make them more "obedient". Meanwhile, an existential crisis looms as the company executives wonder whether this project is doomed to fail. If the power plug is pulled, it will be the end of this world — and your job — as you know it.
 

Devils.Advocate

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One of the things I am wrestling with AG and RP type games is "where are the Stakes?". there are no real wrong choices that much is true, however, I'd like wrong choices that we all commonly accept and choosing poorly to have consequences. and that making a bad choice will mean things just won't work out..

The AG I found was a place where everyone is "protected", I don't want people to feel anxious about dying or, losing control of their characters but there needs to be something, something that makes failure matters, and success meaningful, that is what I hope...

While I thought of introducing a Life Point system, to have characters die if they fail to rolls too often, but now on second thought, it seems a bit superfluous. a bit shallow...

I wonder how I can balance away from a measured punishment, that can create a "bad" things in the RP world...

There needs to be something that matters. I cant be money since a player can RP finding treasure...
This something needs to be a clear specific quantifiable object that is desired but can be lost and earned...
 

AliceShiki

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One of the things I am wrestling with AG and RP type games is "where are the Stakes?". there are no real wrong choices that much is true, however, I'd like wrong choices that we all commonly accept and choosing poorly to have consequences. and that making a bad choice will mean things just won't work out..

The AG I found was a place where everyone is "protected", I don't want people to feel anxious about dying or, losing control of their characters but there needs to be something, something that makes failure matters, and success meaningful, that is what I hope...

While I thought of introducing a Life Point system, to have characters die if they fail to rolls too often, but now on second thought, it seems a bit superfluous. a bit shallow...

I wonder how I can balance away from a measured punishment, that can create a "bad" things in the RP world...

There needs to be something that matters. I cant be money since a player can RP finding treasure...
This something needs to be a clear specific quantifiable object that is desired but can be lost and earned...
Honestly... I think that's not a good idea? Like...

Plenty of people like to make their characters feel loss and go through bad experiences, it's part of our plans to make the character suffer now and get back up later.

Having a system that forces us to lose something meaningful means we lose the chance of making the loss happen when we want it to happen... At least IMO.
 

Devils.Advocate

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Plenty of people like to make their characters feel loss and go through bad experiences, it's part of our plans to make the character suffer now and get back up later.
:blob_hmm: :blob_hmm: :blob_hmm: I suppose...

If the system is built on only gaining strength/power by failing quest/ roll checks, do you think should there be... say... a numerical penalty like lost currency or stamina or life points?
 

AliceShiki

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:blob_hmm: :blob_hmm: :blob_hmm: I suppose...

If the system is built on only gaining strength/power by failing quest/ roll checks, do you think should there be... say... a numerical penalty like lost currency or stamina or life points?
Mmmmmmm... I dunno? I mean, you already lost by not getting the quest clear rewards, even though you'll still have to write it being failed... Then you want to lose again by actually losing something?

I dunno, I think that needing to write and not earn anything is already enough of a loss.
 

Devils.Advocate

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I suppose the dynamics of a more gamified version of Ag would not really be AG that has come before... But I wonder what that would mean for the stories.

How much control do players have over their stories...

In the current system, the player has full-ish control, BUT whether a quest succeeded or failed is determined by the Evaluator. And I would say 90 per cent of the quest passes... if not more...

If the "roll for shoes" system, where the player can not fully control the outcome and need to explain how it failed... the question is, what is the point succeeding...

BUT what I wonder is, if you are a player and to rolled under the pass check, you can get the skill points, but narratively you want to pass the quest more than failing, Will you still write a report of a failed quest? Do players value failed experiences even without an incentive?

Another question is if your story is one they the character never fails at anything, would you still play a game that has a chance to fail? Who would play a game, where they can fail/

To sum up, I think one thing is that, is that if power levels are noosed up by the skills and abilities, will there be a levelling system for a character. There are levels on quests, but no levels on the player. So a new player with one skill can try to roll a level 5 quest and earn a big reward if they are lucky.

if the level of quest denotes how may dice a challenge is, the lowest a level 5 quest is rolling 5 ones, of if character role 1 six then can pass all the checks...

I dunno, I think that needing to write and not earn anything is already enough of a loss.
I suppose part of me wonders if there will be players that writer one-line reports, just to grind skill points. That is the only thing that crossed my mind... since failing in this system is rewarding in its own way... And if they do exploit it, to grind failure points, does it matter, is the main question...
 

ohko

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I think to some extent this is getting closer to DnD ^^ though, I think DnD is better because there is a GM who drives the story.

The fun part about having a GM is that they’re able to give plot twists (or failures) in a narratively interesting way.

On the other hand, pure RNG can feel random and grind-y, which I think can be a demerit if you’re relying completely on RNG to tell a story
 

AliceShiki

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BUT what I wonder is, if you are a player and to rolled under the pass check, you can get the skill points, but narratively you want to pass the quest more than failing, Will you still write a report of a failed quest? Do players value failed experiences even without an incentive?
Some players will, some won't. Some care for being an OP killing machine, others care about seeing their characters grow~

It's fine to have some systems appealing more to certain audiences than others~
I suppose part of me wonders if there will be players that writer one-line reports, just to grind skill points. That is the only thing that crossed my mind... since failing in this system is rewarding in its own way... And if they do exploit it, to grind failure points, does it matter, is the main question...
Well, the more of an established system you have, the more people will try exploiting it... That's just normal, all games are breakable, you just need to find out how~

So worrying about people trying to exploit the system isn't very healthy IMO, even if you add some countermeasures, they'll just try finding more convoluted ways to go about it.
 

Devils.Advocate

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For the purpose of simplicity, and to reduce confusion, for the moment let me called the WIP AG system, RoShoe System Ver1.

The next things I am wondering is the question brought up by Ohko, before the bottleneck of the quest board.

Currently, over at Probos it is a limited quest board system... it too early to know how it will pan out, and traffic is not hight enough to warrant a god conclusion...

But in the interest of limited moderation... I would like the Roshoe System to have something similar, if not more extreme...

I wonder what that would look like...

In my mind, i'd like to only have a hand full of quests, but the way it is played is that quest leads to more quests, If the makes sense.

Things alike crafting hunting, and trading, does not need quest since there is no EXP system, and the player can freely go to the smithy or the hunting ground to hunt and can resolve the challenges with a Challenge sheet, anything from looking for a hidden object to making leather, all can be under the law of the Roshoe or ignored.

WIth the Roshoe, players can try to do anything and learn anything in places of the world, and from those encounters get strong, THe world could be more organic, and not restrained by quests, since there is no EXP.

But to make a story, they need a quest.

A handful of starter quests that leads to other quests... But how to do that... how to make the quest more like writing proms...

Is there a way to make a quest so that they are more like the beginning of epics?
 

AliceShiki

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For the purpose of simplicity, and to reduce confusion, for the moment let me called the WIP AG system, RoShoe System Ver1.

The next things I am wondering is the question brought up by Ohko, before the bottleneck of the quest board.

Currently, over at Probos it is a limited quest board system... it too early to know how it will pan out, and traffic is not hight enough to warrant a god conclusion...

But in the interest of limited moderation... I would like the Roshoe System to have something similar, if not more extreme...

I wonder what that would look like...

In my mind, i'd like to only have a hand full of quests, but the way it is played is that quest leads to more quests, If the makes sense.

Things alike crafting hunting, and trading, does not need quest since there is no EXP system, and the player can freely go to the smithy or the hunting ground to hunt and can resolve the challenges with a Challenge sheet, anything from looking for a hidden object to making leather, all can be under the law of the Roshoe or ignored.

WIth the Roshoe, players can try to do anything and learn anything in places of the world, and from those encounters get strong, THe world could be more organic, and not restrained by quests, since there is no EXP.

But to make a story, they need a quest.

A handful of starter quests that leads to other quests... But how to do that... how to make the quest more like writing proms...

Is there a way to make a quest so that they are more like the beginning of epics?
I don't think there is much of a way to incentive people to make a quest the start of something if you don't actively push people towards it constantly like how Ohko kept pushing people to make custom quests about unresolved plots and stuff...
 

Devils.Advocate

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I don't think there is much of a way to incentive people to make a quest the start of something if you don't actively push people towards it constantly like how Ohko kept pushing people to make custom quests about unresolved plots and stuff...
What I am thinking was... kind of do away with the be adventurers -> become powerful adventurers/ save the world type paradigm. but instead...

Go explore an unknown world, build a house, make a village, find other places, convince NPC to join the village, make the village into a town... that type of game... borderline city builder.

LIke this game
It's time to build a village!
But more intimate.
 

AliceShiki

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What I am thinking was... kind of do away with the be adventurers -> become powerful adventurers/ save the world type paradigm. but instead...

Go explore an unknown world, build a house, make a village, find other places, convince NPC to join the village, make the village into a town... that type of game... borderline city builder.

LIke this game

But more intimate.
Oh, it could actually work, but I'm not sure how you'd lead people to keep making the village grow and stuff! >.<
 

Devils.Advocate

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Oh, it could actually work, but I'm not sure how you'd lead people to keep making the village grow and stuff! >.<
Hmm... I suppose the game could start with one quest, which is to gather materials and try to build a place to sleep / a house to live in.

Earlier pioneers will have a lot more freedom, build where ever, I'd to imagine, older players will have a way to run things, people might want to build a pub, make and adventurers' guild. make a town hall, as problem crop up players will need to build more facilities. a hunting lodge for food and people who wants to be a ranger, a smithy, a lab etc etc

I like to imagine, later on as players garner more skills and more abilities they might leave and start a new village, and then we can have people that make themselves Rulers and there could be player vs player wars.... that is both an exciting prospect and also headache for how to gamify it...

If no players instigate major change, GM can introduce small, prods. such as A Bandit leader have entered the village and demanded XYZ. and ambassador of a neighbouring country have entered the town, and want's XYZ...

Some details of what the logic is still needed to be worked out... Maybe a town inventory... but I do like the sandbox nature of this, idea... at this moment...

Soooo this is one idea... I will put it on the shelf... hm.... I wonder what other ways are there...:blob_hmm::blob_hmm::blob_hmm::blob_hmm:
 

Devils.Advocate

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I think to some extent this is getting closer to DnD ^^ though, I think DnD is better because there is a GM who drives the story.

The fun part about having a GM is that they’re able to give plot twists (or failures) in a narratively interesting way.

On the other hand, pure RNG can feel random and grind-y, which I think can be a demerit if you’re relying completely on RNG to tell a story
:blob_hmm::blob_hmm::blob_hmm: Which I do agree... Having a GM is nice...
I think in a way I was looking for a method where players are their own GMs. and in all honesty the viability of it I am a bit cynical. I suppose my thinking is that the twist and unexpected event is in the RNG,

E.g A player KNOWS that have a high chance of passing a check, the Adversity is 3 die so 3 -18 pts. the player hold 5 die skill. but still rolled under, the question is how does the player tell a story about a surprising twist of event that explained why they fail.

Sure, it is RNG, but the meaning of the RNG, could be you stumble into a horde of gobos, or you touches som poison ivy...

That is the nature of the RNG I am hoping to work with... my hope is that success is the boring story, failure is the interesting puzzle that creates more information... and in failing generated more quest and "to-dos"
 

AliceShiki

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Hmm... I suppose the game could start with one quest, which is to gather materials and try to build a place to sleep / a house to live in.

Earlier pioneers will have a lot more freedom, build where ever, I'd to imagine, older players will have a way to run things, people might want to build a pub, make and adventurers' guild. make a town hall, as problem crop up players will need to build more facilities. a hunting lodge for food and people who wants to be a ranger, a smithy, a lab etc etc

I like to imagine, later on as players garner more skills and more abilities they might leave and start a new village, and then we can have people that make themselves Rulers and there could be player vs player wars.... that is both an exciting prospect and also headache for how to gamify it...

If no players instigate major change, GM can introduce small, prods. such as A Bandit leader have entered the village and demanded XYZ. and ambassador of a neighbouring country have entered the town, and want's XYZ...

Some details of what the logic is still needed to be worked out... Maybe a town inventory... but I do like the sandbox nature of this, idea... at this moment...

Soooo this is one idea... I will put it on the shelf... hm.... I wonder what other ways are there...:blob_hmm::blob_hmm::blob_hmm::blob_hmm:
Well, there was a kingdom building game on NUF, and it had 0 mechanics and just a premise of "Let's Build a Kingdom" and... It worked surprisingly well for a while.

After some time though, players ran out of things to do and didn't know what else they should do to keep the game going, so it kinda died on its own.

Was fun while it lasted though~

So uhn... Well, it's how I feel about this kind of thing I guess? It feels hard to get long-term sustenance! >.<
 

Devils.Advocate

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It feels hard to get long-term sustenance
Hmm.... 4 months, my goal is 4 months... I want to make a system that would start run out of things to do in 3.5 months of active engagement. 3rd months is when GM introduces a cataclysmic (within reason) event, that either end the game or opens new possibilities.
 
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