Another world

[Miserys_End]

As if I have any control over it. Just because reality is cruel, doesnt mean you need to lash out at the messenger...

 

[Raneday]

As if I have any control over it. Just because reality is cruel, doesnt mean you need to lash out at the messenger...

then became a goblin in Goblin Slayer world?

 

[Miserys_End]

Or just the regular world that never gave two shits to begin with.

 

[Raneday]

Or just the regular world that never gave two shits to begin with.

hmm?

 

[Llamadragon]

Think I'll stand on the other side for arguments sake xD
I would argue that while the knowledge from earth shouldn't make a person instantly powerful, applying that knowledge would give related magical fields a large boost to their output.

Let's take fire for example. We know that fire burns hotter by introducing higher quantities of oxygen. We also know that introducing the fuels in different states with change how the flames react to it. So if a mage could apply that knowledge to their fire spells, they can imitate anything from a fuel-air explosive, to napalm.

We can do the same for air via by tampering with the quantities of the different air particles(oxygen, carbonate dioxide, helium, ect ect), raising or lowering the air pressure, or using vibration to create walls of sound.

Water, purity for clarity and hardness. Viscosity, salinity and particle movement to either freeze or boil the water as needed.

Hell even the basics of gravitational forces are covered in highschool...

So I would argue it's not that we have overpowering abilities in another world setting, it's the application of our knowledge that twists and augments whatever abilities we are given

Well yeah that's all good and stuff. But with that kind of magic, they'd probably be more advanced in chemistry than we are. If they're humans, they'll have the inquisitive nature of humanity - with scientific tools that go beyond ours.

 

[Llamadragon]

If we're talking your general average medieval Isekai? I'd be screwed.

I'm an outdoorsy person, and a medieval reenactor. I do my fair share of camping, know my fair share of bushcraft. But lets face it, the average modern person can't even properly mend clothes, beyond the absolute basics. Heck, we can't even make the thread we'd need to begin with. Jumping to a medieval time would literally be like changing a skill tree and we'd be like children compare to the locals, that have spent their lifetimes learning the stuff that's relevant for them. Us? We spent that time learning... IDK, math and stuff, which is useful but most of us don't know how to apply it to real-world skills.

My only chance would be to hope my exotic clothes and my laptop would sell for enough money to get myself a new set of clothing and housing for long enough to figure out what to do from that point on.

Maybe I could be a bard. Sing all the songs from this time? I can paint, too, but ofc both those jobs are luxuries.

 

[Miserys_End]

Well yeah that's all good and stuff. But with that kind of magic, they'd probably be more advanced in chemistry than we are. If they're humans, they'll have the inquisitive nature of humanity - with scientific tools that go beyond ours.

Yes and no, it's hard to judge because we'll never know till we get there. Most medieval cultures didn't practice many forms of sanitation. So while they might wash their equipment before making a new potions, even going as far as sterilization, it might be a stretch for them to understand the reason behind it other then "it reduces the chance of failure". So even if they go through a similar process, they may not know why they do it, or the most effective means to do it... unless "magic" solves the issue, then all bets are off.

As a side note, I'm very much so in the "magic of imagination" group. Even if you need an incantation, sigils, or catalysts for your spells, someone with a better understanding and "image" of the intended spell's effect, will yield better and more powerful results.

 

[Arcturus]

Yes and no, it's hard to judge because we'll never know till we get there. Most medieval cultures didn't practice many forms of sanitation. So while they might wash their equipment before making a new potions, even going as far as sterilization, it might be a stretch for them to understand the reason behind it other then "it reduces the chance of failure". So even if they go through a similar process, they may not know why they do it, or the most effective means to do it... unless "magic" solves the issue, then all bets are off.

As a side note, I'm very much so in the "magic of imagination" group. Even if you need an incantation, sigils, or catalysts for your spells, someone with a better understanding and "image" of the intended spell's effect, will yield better and more powerful results.

I'm fine with magic of imagination. But I also believe that magic should need something more (i.e. something that makes it magic). Or the laws of physics should be just different. There needs to be something about that makes it difficult to use for someone from another world, even if it gives advantages. Something that differentiates magic from just super science. I'm of the opinion that magic having an ineffability to it that someone from a world built entirely about science struggles to handle is most appropriate.

 

[Miserys_End]

I'm fine with magic of imagination. But I also believe that magic should need something more (i.e. something that makes it magic). Or the laws of physics should be just different. There needs to be something about that makes it difficult to use for someone from another world, even if it gives advantages. Something that differentiates magic from just super science. I'm of the opinion that magic having an ineffability to it that someone from a world built entirely about science struggles to handle is most appropriate.

Agreed. Culture shock if nothing else would slow down any but but the most diehard chuuni. They would need an adjustment period before they can grasp the new common sense of the world they migrated to. It's one of the reasons I favor novels with reincarnation(memories intact or have them "wake up" from a trauma) then a stright transmigration.

 

[lnv]

Yes and no, it's hard to judge because we'll never know till we get there. Most medieval cultures didn't practice many forms of sanitation. So while they might wash their equipment before making a new potions, even going as far as sterilization, it might be a stretch for them to understand the reason behind it other then "it reduces the chance of failure". So even if they go through a similar process, they may not know why they do it, or the most effective means to do it... unless "magic" solves the issue, then all bets are off.

As a side note, I'm very much so in the "magic of imagination" group. Even if you need an incantation, sigils, or catalysts for your spells, someone with a better understanding and "image" of the intended spell's effect, will yield better and more powerful results.

I question how good a person's "imagination" is. Things like fire needing air and compressing the fire is basics that anyone can figure out with trial and error.

I see little advantage for a modern person, mostly because do you really know how fire works at a molecular level? Unless you are a scientist with broad understanding of scientific knowledge, the things we learn in school are basics.

For reference, humans started using bombs in 11th century, which is pretty much middle of medieval times. (5th - 15th century)

In the case of germs, the person who proposed the germ theory was born in the end of medieval times.

That said, a modern person might know about germs, but how much do we really know? Do you even know how a flu virus looks like? Not to mention some bacteria is required for humans to live. Do you know all the bacteria that humans need? Flawed knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.

 

[Miserys_End]

I question how good a person's "imagination" is. Things like fire needing air and compressing the fire is basics that anyone can figure out with trial and error.

I see little advantage for a modern person, mostly because do you really know how fire works at a molecular level? Unless you are a scientist with broad understanding of scientific knowledge, the things we learn in school are basics.

For reference, humans started using bombs in 11th century, which is pretty much middle of medieval times. (5th - 15th century)

In the case of germs, the person who proposed the germ theory was born in the end of medieval times.

That said, a modern person might know about germs, but how much do we really know? Do you even know how a flu virus looks like? Not to mention some bacteria is required for humans to live. Do you know all the bacteria that humans need? Flawed knowledge is more dangerous than no knowledge.

Dont know about you, I've always had a very vivid imagination. While I read I have a full movie playing in my head with dialogue. Even get the occasional auditory hallucinations, (always fun to hear someone calling your name when you're by yourself xD) So while I didnt know much about molecular science, I think I would have a fair chance of using knowledge that I've had since high school with little more then my imagination.

Things like pure oxygen and open flames had very dire consequences. Different fuels react differently, burn at different temperatures, or can be difficult to extinguish. Fire doesnt necessarily need to burn a person to kill them, its byproducts can be just as deadly. Lightning is a form of charged plasma... the list goes on and on.

As for bombs and bacteria, you're forgetting the common sense will be different and will effect their R&D. They very could have used magic to preforms much the same way as medieval explosives and so had no need to create explosives by mundane means. Bacteria both helpful and harmful may or may not be known and could have been grouped with poisonous chemicals. *shrug* like I said, it's hard to judge till we get there. All we can do from this side is talk in hypotheticals.

The point I'm making isnt that our worlds knowledge would turn a person into a mage outright, but all those scientific interactions we learned by the end of high school, when combined with the other worlds magic would be extremely useful.

 

[lnv]

Dont know about you, I've always had a very vivid imagination. While I read I have a full movie playing in my head with dialogue. Even get the occasional auditory hallucinations, (always fun to hear someone calling your name when you're by yourself xD) So while I didnt know much about molecular science, I think I would have a fair chance of using knowledge that I've had since high school with little more then my imagination.

Having an imagination does not mean reality matches said imagination.

Things like pure oxygen and open flames had very dire consequences.

What is the electronegativity of oxygen?

Different fuels react differently, burn at different temperatures, or can be difficult to extinguish.

Do you know the boiling point of gasoline? What about the trick to extinguishing gasoline fire with water?

Fire doesnt necessarily need to burn a person to kill them, its byproducts can be just as deadly.

Do you know all the byproducts of burning coal?

Lightning is a form of charged plasma... the list goes on and on.

Do you know the composition of charged plasma?

As for bombs and bacteria, you're forgetting the common sense will be different and will effect their R&D. They very could have used magic to preforms much the same way as medieval explosives and so had no need to create explosives by mundane means. Bacteria both helpful and harmful may or may not be known and could have been grouped with poisonous chemicals. *shrug* like I said, it's hard to judge till we get there. All we can do from this side is talk in hypotheticals.

The point I'm making isnt that our worlds knowledge would turn a person into a mage outright, but all those scientific interactions we learned by the end of high school, when combined with the other worlds magic would be extremely useful.

The problem is that you are overestimating the knowledge we have. Sure, we might know a few kinks here and there but I question how viable it is in the real world. Knowing vague concepts is not the same as actual knowledge.

Their laws of physics may not even match ours.

Of course you'll have an advantage over some newbie commoner, but it is questionable if you will have an advantage against a seasoned magician.


On a side note: That is one of the things I tried to explore when writing an isekai novel, the difference between knowing, understanding and experiencing.

 

[Miserys_End]

Having an imagination does not mean reality matches said imagination.


What is the electronegativity of oxygen?


Do you know the boiling point of gasoline? What about the trick to extinguishing gasoline fire with water?


Do you know all the byproducts of burning coal?


Do you know the composition of charged plasma?



The problem is that you are overestimating the knowledge we have. Sure, we might know a few kinks here and there but I question how viable it is in the real world. Knowing vague concepts is not the same as actual knowledge.

Their laws of physics may not even match ours.

Of course you'll have an advantage over some newbie commoner, but it is questionable if you will have an advantage against a seasoned magician.


On a side note: That is one of the things I tried to explore when writing an isekai novel, the difference between knowing, understanding and experiencing.

There ya go again. See this is why people from this planet would have so much trouble casting magic. They are just to wrapped up with scientific expectations to hypnotize that it's not the why that matter but the intended result. Like I know when using an acetylene torch adjusting the pure oxygen output will increase the temperature output and focus the flames, or if you add to much blow it out. Do I need an advanced degree in particle theory to know that? No, my shop teacher showed me once then handed me the torch to make sure I could reproduce the same results. He also warned me to keep the flames away to the oxygen tanks in case there was a leak(had a nice video and everything)

Now let's take the above example into a magical world. First make a flame. Second introduce oxygen atoms as close to the center of the flame as I can. Sure I may not get pure oxygen on the first try, but I know it works, that there should be oxygen atoms all around me and that it makes fire burn hotter or turn explosive. This may end up blowing up in my face or nothing at all, but it would be worth experimenting with.

Oh fun fact, pure water doesnt act as a conductor, its infact pure deionized water is a form of insulation

 

[lnv]

There ya go again. See this is why people from this planet would have so much trouble casting magic. They are just to wrapped up with scientific expectations to hypnotize that it's not the why that matter but the intended result. Like I know when using an acetylene torch adjusting the pure oxygen output will increase the temperature output and focus the flames, or if you add to much blow it out. Do I need an advanced degree in particle theory to know that? No, my shop teacher showed me once then handed me the torch to make sure I could reproduce the same results. He also warned me to keep the flames away to the oxygen tanks in case there was a leak(had a nice video and everything)

If you only know the result, then you are no better than someone who saw a powerful fire once and knew the result.

Now let's take the above example into a magical world. First make a flame. Second introduce oxygen atoms as close to the center of the flame as I can. Sure I may not get pure oxygen on the first try, but I know it works, that there should be oxygen atoms all around me and that it makes fire burn hotter or turn explosive. This may end up blowing up in my face or nothing at all, but it would be worth experimenting with.

So you admit it might blow up in your face and that could be your death.

Things like adding oxygen to flame would be common knowledge in a magic society. How many centuries do you think they would spend studying these things?

 

[Miserys_End]

If you only know the result, then you are no better than someone who saw a powerful fire once and knew the result.



So you admit it might blow up in your face and that could be your death.

Things like adding oxygen to flame would be common knowledge in a magic society. How many centuries do you think they would spend studying these things?

Sure they would know about any form of fire or explosive they had seen or read about and may have figured out that adding "air" to a flame will yield a better result, but would they understand why?. I for one have used a plasma cutter. I've also seen documentaries with the different interactions of natural elements. I doubt they could say the same. I've also seen examples, diagrams, and had coursework related the effects as well. At best they have a fragmented knowledge and even then who's to say that actually share that knowledge with anyone other then the successor.

As for things blowing up in my face, I doubt they wouldn't have spells and or enchantments that reduce or mitigate some of the damage. Hell they might have full room where I could reduce myself to ashes and a moment later I would be back to how I was before the conflagration of doom I created, assuming that is I didnt take the entire room with me.

 

[lnv]

Sure they would know about any form of fire or explosive they had seen or read about and may have figured out that adding "air" to a flame will yield a better result, but would they understand why?. I for one have used a plasma cutter. I've also seen documentaries with the different interactions of natural elements. I doubt they could say the same. I've also seen examples, diagrams, and had coursework related the effects as well. At best they have a fragmented knowledge and even then who's to say that actually share that knowledge with anyone other then the successor.

Do you know why oxygen fuels fire? what about what flames are made of?

As for things blowing up in my face, I doubt they wouldn't have spells and or enchantments that reduce or mitigate some of the damage. Hell they might have full room where I could reduce myself to ashes and a moment later I would be back to how I was before the conflagration of doom I created, assuming that is I didnt take the entire room with me.

You think they are going to be so accommodating to a newbie with no background?

 

[Miserys_End]

Do you know why oxygen fuels fire? what about what flames are made of?
You think they are going to be so accommodating to a newbie with no background?

Had to Google to confirm, but yes. It basically acts like a catalist to speed up the conversion of one type of atom to another, but it's also a secondary source of fuel. Does it matter in a magical world? Will a magical world follow the same principles as ours? Who knows, but I'm will to bet it would give me a head start in finding out if it doesnt.

As for your second question, that's why I prefer reincarnation over transmigration. Reincarnation allows me to adjust to the world and establish a background. It also allows me to implement other changes to either earn money to become independent or support my new family. Transmigrated into the middle of nowhere would suck xD so many barriers to overcome. Language, identity, money, supplies, equipment.... the list is endless. Sure I might be able to work something out but it will definitely limit everything I do, well unless it's something like a Summoning by a kingdom/princess/cult/goddess..., then all bets are off.