Are they in the right?

RinThao

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So as I was writing about this character who is the main antagonist of an upcoming story of mine. Her name is Jennifer, who reincarnates into a tanuki, and is the foil to my main character, Rin the Nine-Tailed Fox. While making Jennifer, I was debating whether or not Jennifer's reasoning to intercept Rin's life was justified or outright wrong.

Rin, reborn as a fox-demon, grows a tail every 100 years, and through his years as a long-living fox, he learns more about humans and tries to help those who are struggling. And through his good deeds, the growth of his tail accelerates quicker. And after obtaining 9 tails, he is finally rewarded to meet his lover from the past; however, that is intercepted by his foil.

In this story (it's currently being written), Jennifer claims Rin's years of good deeds helping humans does not outweigh the terrible things he's done when he was previously a human. Lastly, she claims his goal to reunite with his reincarnated lover is his biggest crime. So long as he is attached to his lover, his good deeds mean nothing according to Jennifer.

I've been trying to find the contradiction in Jennifer's claims, or convince myself that her actions to intercept Rin is actually justified. Tell me what you guys think? Is there some way I can do to counter argue Jennifer's claim?
 
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Anon2021

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It’s the trope of “he’s not doing good because he is good but because he wants something in return” argument.

I don’t think there is a counter to Jennifer’s claim because what is in the past is in the past, I would say that what Jennifer is doing now is standing in the way of someone who is actually doing good.

putting pitfalls in the way of people bettering their choices and actions is just as evil and Rin can justify himself saying the past can’t be changed but the future is still undecided
 
D

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So as I was writing about this character who is the main antagonist of an upcoming story of mine. Her name is Jennifer, who was reborn as a tanuki, and is the foil to my main character, Rin the Nine-Tailed Fox. While making Jennifer, I was debating whether or not Jennifer's reasoning to intercept Rin's life was justified or outright wrong.

Rin, reborn as a fox-demon, grows a tail every 100 years, and through his years as a long-living fox, he learns more about humans and tries to help a few struggling ones. And through his good deeds, the growth of his tail accelerates even quicker. And after obtaining 9 tails, he is finally rewarded to meet his lover from the past; however, that is intercepted by his foil character.
Nice.
In this story (it's currently being written), Jennifer claims Rin's years of good deeds helping humans does not outweigh the terrible things he's done when he was previously a human.
It depends what he did as a human. If he caused three castrophoic wars that wiped out millions of lives, helping a few dozen doesn't jusitfy it. Now if lives he took was like a 100, but he saved millions of lives, then its probably the other way around. It really depends on what they did previously.
Lastly, she claims his goal to reunite with his reincarnated lover is his biggest crime. So long as he is attached to his lover, his good deeds mean nothing according to Jennifer.
No. Thats not his biggest crime. Unless this is the monk telling the white snake humans can't be with demons bc demons =bad, it just seems like Jennifer has a jealousy thing going and she's trying to snuff whatever romantic relationships he had/may reunite.

Reuniting with his lost love can be his biggest motivator to doing good deeds and thats fine. Religion, love, etc. helps give chance to persuade even some morally questionable to start on redeeming path. Though whether some may preach if its genuine feeling guilt and want to redeem vs doing so just to get end goal is different, though that seems more in religion belief aspects but that is like perhaps romance being placed above religion and they could argue its not pure intentions to redeem, etc. (monk and snake).
 
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Mephi

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Everyone does good things for selfish reasons. At least in part. Even the most selfless of acts comes with a rush of endorphins for making you feel good.

The flaw in Jennifer 's argument is the presumption that good deeds must be performed selflessly. People can do things for multiple reasons, both selfish and selfish.
 

Ilikewaterkusa

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So as I was writing about this character who is the main antagonist of an upcoming story of mine. Her name is Jennifer, who was reborn as a tanuki, and is the foil to my main character, Rin the Nine-Tailed Fox. While making Jennifer, I was debating whether or not Jennifer's reasoning to intercept Rin's life was justified or outright wrong.

Rin, reborn as a fox-demon, grows a tail every 100 years, and through his years as a long-living fox, he learns more about humans and tries to help a few struggling ones. And through his good deeds, the growth of his tail accelerates even quicker. And after obtaining 9 tails, he is finally rewarded to meet his lover from the past; however, that is intercepted by his foil character.

In this story (it's currently being written), Jennifer claims Rin's years of good deeds helping humans does not outweigh the terrible things he's done when he was previously a human. Lastly, she claims his goal to reunite with his reincarnated lover is his biggest crime. So long as he is attached to his lover, his good deeds mean nothing according to Jennifer.

I've been trying to find the contradiction in Jennifer's claims, or convince myself that her actions to intercept Rin is actually justified. Tell me what you guys think?
Is there some way I can do to counter argue Jennifer's claim?
Jennifer is stupid. Your good deeds may not outweigh your sins but that’s in the current moment and Rin seems to be on a track of constant improvement and sin removal. Also how is trying to reunite with your lover a sin?
 

CupcakeNinja

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So as I was writing about this character who is the main antagonist of an upcoming story of mine. Her name is Jennifer, who was reborn as a tanuki, and is the foil to my main character, Rin the Nine-Tailed Fox. While making Jennifer, I was debating whether or not Jennifer's reasoning to intercept Rin's life was justified or outright wrong.

Rin, reborn as a fox-demon, grows a tail every 100 years, and through his years as a long-living fox, he learns more about humans and tries to help a few struggling ones. And through his good deeds, the growth of his tail accelerates even quicker. And after obtaining 9 tails, he is finally rewarded to meet his lover from the past; however, that is intercepted by his foil character.

In this story (it's currently being written), Jennifer claims Rin's years of good deeds helping humans does not outweigh the terrible things he's done when he was previously a human. Lastly, she claims his goal to reunite with his reincarnated lover is his biggest crime. So long as he is attached to his lover, his good deeds mean nothing according to Jennifer.

I've been trying to find the contradiction in Jennifer's claims, or convince myself that her actions to intercept Rin is actually justified. Tell me what you guys think?
Is there some way I can do to counter argue Jennifer's claim?
let me put it this way, just because i helped a little girl save her kitten doesnt make the fact i raped and killed some woman a few hours early is sddenly cancelled out.

Good karma doesnt negate bad karma, aight? You still gotta suffer the punishment of your crime....THEN your good karma counts.
 

rain-090

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let me put it this way, just because i helped a little girl save her kitten doesnt make the fact i raped and killed some woman a few hours early is sddenly cancelled out.

Good karma doesnt negate bad karma, aight? You still gotta suffer the punishment of your crime....THEN your good karma counts.
I think suffering for a few hundred years while helping others does count as punishment
 

RinThao

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I also know how I'm going to end this story. Would anyone like to know how it'll end?

If I say it, I would like to ask you the question once more. Do you still think Jennifer's action is justifed regardless of the ending?
 
D

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I also know how I'm going to end this story. Would anyone like to know how it'll end?

If I say it, I would like to ask you the question once more. Do you still think Jennifer's action is justifed regardless of the ending?
Speak it first. We cannot judge the blanks that we do not know.
 

NotaNuffian

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... So Rin needs to get punished for his crime first, then gets his reward? Jennifer must be hard activist against second chance.

Because following the timeline, Rin had done something bad in the past, be it thief and jaywalking or genocide and mass pollution, has he paid for his crime? If yes, then the book should have been balanced. If not, then yeah, Jennifer can deduct the current good deeds he done for now and he has to do until the bad has been cancelled out, then he can do some more good to get his prize.

Let's be honest, while we can sit here all day and do book checking on Rin's life, writing down the date and scale of deeds chronologically until now, no one will actually do that. What we care about is whether or not Rin has clear his reds yet and his deeds NOW have beneficial effect to the society. The whole "do a good thing" is not denoted by your desires or schemes, but rather by the method and end result. So if Rin did good, he good. If he has to pay his debts, cancel them out from the current positive balance.
 

RinThao

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So the ending I'm going for is a rather tragic one.

Rin learns his fate is to achieve true enlightenment; however, doing that would mean he would sacrifice his human attachments including his love for Abigail (his reincarnated lover). He confesses his mistakes and his feelings towards Abigail, and Abigail remembers her past and her time spent with Rin. Despite the rough and complicated past, she still explains that her current feelings for him are geniune regardless of their past. Rin smiles in satisfaction, and he ascends to Heaven. Jennifer watches them and screams in anger that despite her actions, Rin is forgiven and sent to a higher state of realm.

I was also planning an epilogue where a reincarnated human Rin and Abigail meet once more, and the story ends (for those who wanted a more satisfying ending). Otherwise ^^^ that's the ending I'm going for.

This is where I was wondering whether or not Jennifer's action is still justisfied because Rin succumbed to his fate. Or essentially helped him realize his fate.
 
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TheEldritchGod

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Nonsense. There is no justice. There are no karmic scales. Sorry. But they don't exist.

You have a pile of good things and a pile of bad things, but one doesn't cancel out the other. Take the latest episode of Obi-wan. What happens? Reva hunts down Luke, goes to kill him, but then doesn't. NOW SHE IS GOOD.

Not killing someone isn't a good deed.

But people think it's supposed to "redeem" you. No. Sorry. You can't change the past. You still did what you did. Will beating yourself up change anything? No. Let's say you are arrested and judged in court. Guess what? That's for the good of society, not for "justice". Here's the crazy thing, you can just stop being evil and do good. You have that choice. You aren't forgiven or absolved of the crap you did, but you can become good just because you CHOOSE to be.

But You still need to deal with your past actions.

In Reva's case, she should still be tried for war crimes. She still chopped off someone's hand. You can become a good person, but still have to pay the price for your past actions.

Good things happen to bad people. Bad things happen to good people. This doesn't make you good because good things happen, and vice versa. Trust me. I know of babies that were raped by the step father because the mother wanted to film it to sell on line to make money to buy drugs. No. I shit you not. I have personally counseled the first responder who had to treat that child and it completely broke him.

I feel safe in saying that in this world, there is no justice. No karma. No fate. And this is a good thing. Why? Because I can balance the scales right now. I can make the world "fair" in one sentence

The baby had it coming.

People who want the world to be "fair" don't know what they are asking for. What most people want is the world to be UNFAIR, in their favor. They don't want the world to be fair. Holy shit, what a nightmare that would be. Imagine every crappy thing that every happened to you. In a fair world, it doesn't go away. You just DESERVED IT.

Did that 2 year old deserve to get raped and the video sold on line?

Society has a vested interest in punishing criminals, and socially punishing people who step outside acceptable boundries, but that isn't for the purpose of making things fair. It's for making society WORK. I want a world that is unfair. I want a world every everyone wins, even if they have not earned it. Even if they don't deserve to win.

How less would the pain be we inflict on each other if we all won?

In a "fair" world that will never happen. In a fair world not everyone can be winners. You can break the rules and everyone can win, even if they haven't "earned" it. If a fair world with "justice" well... sorry. If the world was ACTUALLY fair, I think most of you would discover that you are actually way ahead of where you should be.

Most of us are, actually. Just having a computer to type on puts us above 95% of the planet.

In Jennifer's case, she's just trying to make the world fair. That's it. In her mind, what she thinks is fair, she's trying to do. Which isnt what is fair. God help her if she actually had to live with TRUE karmic justice. I doubt any of us would like that world where no matter how hard we all try, we could only come out to a zero sum. Never positive, never negative, always breaking even and no matter how hard you try, or how little you try, you wind up at "fair".

Trust me. I've seen people who are in the negatives. Nobody, and I mean nobody, who has all their limbs intact and is typing on this forum knows what being in the negatives is. Most people are in the positives, to be honest. If we made the world fair, I shudder at the very thought of a truly equitable world.

The MC was a terrible person. There's no way to go back and fix that. Move forward and make the world a better place from this point forward.

And that bullshit about people are only nice because it benefits them. Fuckin' narcissistic bullshit. Yeah yeah yeah, theories of enlightened selfishness. Guess what? I help people because I want the world to be better than how I felt it. I don't get much out of it. I'd often get more by NOT helping others, but I do it anyways because I want to. Because I choose to. That's it. Trying to turn it into a "dark and edgy" thing where you go, "We're all selfish and evil we just pretend otherwise". Well, if we ALL DO IT, then it doesn't matter.

We all breathe air. So going on about how BREATHING is selfish is nonsense and makes the same amount of sense. Enjoying something good doesn't make it selfish. Enjoying something just means you ENJOY IT. I like this, I don't like that. That's not selfish, because part of it involves benefitting others.

To be selfish, I HAVE TO BE THE ONLY ONE GETTING SOMETHING OUT OF IT.

But that's what people want you to think. To make everything dark and twisted and warped instead of just seeing things for what they are.

And that's where Jennifer is at.

It was a previous fuckin' life. Like, HE DIED. What benefit is there to punishing him in THIS LIFE? SO he learns his leason? GUESS WHAT? HE DID! He's being a nice person an doing good deeds. The punishment she wishes to inflect WON'T SERVE ANY PURPOSE EXCEPT TO MAKE HER FEEL LIKE SHE'S VIRTUOUS .

This is just virtue signaling at it's worst. She is the selfish one in this case. She is the one harming others to make herself better while lying to herself that she is getting "Justice". For who? Who will feel better? How will this benefit society? What good will be accomplished in this case?

Now, if this was in the SAME lifetime, and the punishment would serve as a warning to others, sure. I can see that, but in this situation, it seems like the only one gaining anything from this Shit is Jennifer, because she is a self-centered egotistical bint.

Maybe there's more to it, but with the little information given, she's the selfish one, stopping someone from making the world a better place so she can pretend to be a good person. In this situation, she's evil. Plain and simple.

She's trying to make the world "fair" without knowing what that would actually look like. She just wants the world to be unfair, but arranged in the way she finds pleasing.

Jennifer is a monster.
 
D

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So the ending I'm going for is a rather tragic one.

Rin learns his fate is to achieve true enlightenment; however, doing that would mean he would sacrifice his human attachments including his love for Abigail (his reincarnated lover). He confesses his mistakes and his feelings towards Abigail, and Abigail remembers her past and her time spent with Rin. Despite the rough and complicated past, she still explains that her current feelings for him are geniune regardless of their past. Rin smiles in satisfaction, and he ascends to Heaven. Jennifer watches them and screams in anger that despite her actions, Rin is forgiven and sent to a higher state of realm.

I was also planning an epilogue where a reincarnated human Rin and Abigail meet once more, and the story ends.

This is where I was wondering whether or not Jennifer's action is still justisfied because Rin succumbed to his fate. Or essentially helped him realize his fate.
Ah the classic. I feel like seen this story trope in movie before.

This is doable honestly. Heck, even I plan writing some romance stories that end more on a melancholy note. Just make sure let readers know if not happy ending, or ending open to interpretation early on.

And what does Jennifer have to do with this even? Even if a foil, they still have to have a reason why they object to Rin. Like what did Rin do to her? Otherwise it should be none of Jennifer's business what Rin does.
 

TheEldritchGod

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If you are writing a story with heaven, BTW. Let me ask you something...

Given that Heaven is INFINITE BLISS AND HAPPINESS, is there ANYTHING anyone could EVER DO to EARN their way into heaven?

This is why, in the bible (if you believe in it or not), you can get into heaven by asking for forgiveness and repenting sincerely. Why? Because NOBODY could ever earn your way into heaven. It's impossible. The reward is too great to EVER be able to balance those scales. The only practical solution is to determine if the person is good NOW.

Otherwise, by Jennifer's reasoning, NOBODY could ever get into heaven.
 
D

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Attaining enlightenment and going to heaven may differ from passing on to heaven depending on the beliefs by the way. Different beliefs, different way of ascending to heaven, though with some similarities.
 

TheEldritchGod

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Attaining enlightenment and going to heaven may differ from passing on to heaven depending on the beliefs by the way. Different beliefs, different way of ascending to heaven, though with some similarities.
Without the specific rules of this setting, I am sticking with standardized meanings. If he alters heaven to be different from baseline "Heaven isn't like that" Situation, then that's fine. His story, his rules. However, he asked a question without many details, so the answer he gets will be left up to the perception of the observer.
 

Anon2021

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So the ending I'm going for is a rather tragic one.

Rin learns his fate is to achieve true enlightenment; however, doing that would mean he would sacrifice his human attachments including his love for Abigail (his reincarnated lover). He confesses his mistakes and his feelings towards Abigail, and Abigail remembers her past and her time spent with Rin. Despite the rough and complicated past, she still explains that her current feelings for him are geniune regardless of their past. Rin smiles in satisfaction, and he ascends to Heaven. Jennifer watches them and screams in anger that despite her actions, Rin is forgiven and sent to a higher state of realm.

I was also planning an epilogue where a reincarnated human Rin and Abigail meet once more, and the story ends.

This is where I was wondering whether or not Jennifer's action is still justisfied because Rin succumbed to his fate. Or essentially helped him realize his fate.
I think that’s a horrible ending.

1. Because it’s saying the state of enlightenment requires sacrificing happiness.

2. Heaven as a place that separates people from those they love is kind of a ridiculous concept.

3. Jennifer has no meaning.

4. Rin goes to heaven then gets reincarnated again? Doesn’t that mean his enlightenment is useless?
Sorry, don’t mean to be harsh. Those are just my true thoughts. I’m sure there are people who will like it.
 

RinThao

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I think that’s a horrible ending.

1. Because it’s saying the state of enlightenment requires sacrificing happiness.

2. Heaven as a place that separates people from those they love is kind of a ridiculous concept.

3. Jennifer has no meaning.

4. Rin goes to heaven then gets reincarnated again? Doesn’t that mean his enlightenment is useless?
Sorry, don’t mean to be harsh. Those are just my true thoughts. I’m sure there are people who will like it.
That's fair. I like your honesty.
 

TheEldritchGod

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I think that’s a horrible ending.

1. Because it’s saying the state of enlightenment requires sacrificing happiness.

2. Heaven as a place that separates people from those they love is kind of a ridiculous concept.

3. Jennifer has no meaning.

4. Rin goes to heaven then gets reincarnated again? Doesn’t that mean his enlightenment is useless?
Sorry, don’t mean to be harsh. Those are just my true thoughts. I’m sure there are people who will like it.

1. I think it is more a situation of "enlightenment" requires that one sever the connections to life. Love isn't just happiness. It is also pain, fear, loss, and many other emotions. I think that's what he is going for.

2. Yeah, I'm not quite sure what heaven is in this context either.

3. Ehhh... Maybe. She serves as an antagonist. The example of what happens if one becomes obsessed with "fairness". Why would you be angry at someone getting into heaven? Holy crap. If you had a button I could press to give everyone their own personal heaven. Everyone who ever lived and is living, and will live. Including your friends, your mom, the bully who beat the shit out of you, Hitler, and the pope...

Would you press it?

I would, but I know quite a few people who wouldn't. I've asked many people this question and it's about 40% wouldn't push it.

4. Yeah. I agree. Enlightenment is sort of the 'end point'. If he gets reincarnated, it defeats the purpose in a narrative sense.
 

Anon2021

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1. I think it is more a situation of "enlightenment" requires that one sever the connections to life. Love isn't just happiness. It is also pain, fear, loss, and many other emotions. I think that's what he is going for.

2. Yeah, I'm not quite sure what heaven is in this context either.

3. Ehhh... Maybe. She serves as an antagonist. The example of what happens if one becomes obsessed with "fairness". Why would you be angry at someone getting into heaven? Holy crap. If you had a button I could press to give everyone their own personal heaven. Everyone who ever lived and is living, and will live. Including your friends, your mom, the bully who beat the shit out of you, Hitler, and the pope...

Would you press it?

I would, but I know quite a few people who wouldn't. I've asked many people this question and it's about 40% wouldn't push it.

4. Yeah. I agree. Enlightenment is sort of the 'end point'. If he gets reincarnated, it defeats the purpose in a narrative sense.

1. That’s what I think is stupid about the philosophical context of enlightenment in the first place. Considering what we know about being human we know that emotions often guide us (sometimes well sometimes horribly) between good and bad things. To sever oneself from emotions and love to be enlightened is like saying one should no longer be human, which makes me question whether it turns someone into a robot.

2. probably should be elaborated upon honestly for people to understand why it’s desireable if they will still die there and get reincarnated.

3. nothing to add

4. nothing to add
 
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