Are they in the right?

TheEldritchGod

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1. That’s what I think is stupid about the philosophical context of enlightenment in the first place. Considering what we know about being human we know that emotions often guide us (sometimes well sometimes horribly) between good and bad things. To sever oneself from emotions and love to be enlightened is like saying one should no longer be human, which makes me question whether it turns someone into a robot.

I ran a D20 campaign that utilized the immortal rule set. So the player started at level 1, got up to epic, became a god, then gave up being a god, started over at 1 and worked up to being a god again. The second time around, they "won" and left the game.

I had two examples of previous gods who tried to pull this off and failed. The purpose is to demonstrate you can become a god 'naturally'. The first time could have been a fluke, so you have to do it twice to prove you qualify for ascension. The first one "cheated". He left a bunch of cheats behind for himself to help with his second life to fast track to becoming a god a second time. The second god accomplished both attempts to becoming a god, but when the final step came he was so pissed off at having been jerked around, that he said, "Nope. I'd like to stay here." and turned down ascension. He couldn't let go of this world.

They served as examples of what happens when you screwed up.

The player let go of everything, ascended, It was quite the finale to the campaign, I assure you, then managed to 'leave' the universe. In the process she was "born" as a universe and was the baby to two very nervous universes that REALLY wanted to have a baby, and they had two previous "miscarriages".

So the Player got to have the entire campaign as the 'final prize' because, they 'became' the campaign by ascending to the next level. And I informed the player that, "I have no idea how to run a campaign where you are an Nth Dimensional Being and an entire universe, so I'm ending it here. But I assure you, your two parent universes are very happy you arrived.

I think that was a good 'ascension', but it also clearly required you to 'give up' your connections to everything as a human to become something BEYOND. What being BEYOND actual means, we as humans cannot imagine, but I have a fairly good 'hint' with the final conclusion and I think it went well.

My point is, some forms of Ascension/Enlightenment might work in a narrative situation as long as the MC is becoming something More Than Human, thus why they have to cut ties to BEING human.

---

BTW, Yes, the player actually played through every single level. The campaign lasted for about a decade.
 

RinThao

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1. I was going for severence of life, cutting all form of humanity and ascending into a higher state, in terms of "true enlightenment". When I think of "enlightenment", one is freed from desire and satisfied with what's currently in their hands. So my playful mind thought of "what about a higher form of enlightenment"? Stupid concept, I do agree that removing one's sense of humanity is idiotic. Embracing the good and bad as a human is, in my opinion, the most beautiful thing to experience as an individual. Of course, one can beg to differ.

2. I used "Heaven" because it's probably easier to understand where Rin would be going. Of course, one could say he is entering a higher realm than the humans. I was raised by families that believed, to reach Heaven one must obtained enlightenment. Of course, I can understand the interpretation of "Heaven" is different from person to person. Hell, if anything, do we even know what "Heaven" looks like?

3. I wasn't sure how to conclude Jennifer's story after Rin ascends. I didn't want to go for the generic, "God sent a beam of light and blinded Jennifer as a sign of punishment". That sounded a little unrewarding. And if I added the epilogue, it would mean Jennifer is still lurking as a tanuki. And that would seem, like I said, unrewarding for readers.

4. It's a bit contradictory I can 100% agree with this one. Bare with me! I was originally going to add a scene where Rin would speak to God, that he would rather reincarnate 1000 times to be with Abigail and obtain a happy ending. OR God would see his love for Abigail was geniune, and give him one more chance to reincarnate as a human before he could fully become "enlightened". But to me, I felt like this was a bit of a cop out.

I do feel like the epilogue is only needed for those who are not satisfied with the current ending of Rin abandoning his humanity and ascending to a higher state.
 

Anon2024

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My point is, some forms of Ascension/Enlightenment might work in a narrative situation as long as the MC is becoming something More Than Human, thus why they have to cut ties to BEING human.
Okay I just want to point out that everything I’m staying now is philosophical because obviously it’s based on conjecture and the current sum of my total human experience.

First, sure the idea of having to sever humanity to go beyond humanity is a concept explored a lot from several novels, stories and religions, but all the people who taught those forms of enlightenment are currently dead.

Hence objectively speaking in the real world we don’t have precedence for it. In the concept of becoming a new universe and ascending as you point out in the scenario it could work but only in the context that higher beings or universes as you state are desirable of separation with those they are states to have amiable feelings towards.

so it would make sense.

In the context of the story by the original poster of this thread though, it doesn’t make sense that the main character does everything he can to be re-United only for BAM! Oh yeah man, I’m ascending because I’m suddenly enlightened.

In contrast, the “losing humanity” idea doesn’t turn the ascended person into a robot but rather a new being that can be happy, where as the example here seems to indicate a severance of both the highs and lows.
1. I was going for severence of life, cutting all form of humanity and ascending into a higher state, in terms of "true enlightenment". When I think of "enlightenment", one is freed from desire and satisfied with what's currently in their hands. So my playful mind thought of "what about a higher form of enlightenment"? Stupid concept, I do agree that removing one's sense of humanity is idiotic. Embracing the good and bad as a human is, in my opinion, the most beautiful thing to experience as an individual. Of course, one can beg to differ.

2. I used "Heaven" because it's probably easier to understand where Rin would be going. Of course, one could say he is entering a higher realm than the humans. I was raised by families that believed, to reach Heaven one must obtained enlightenment. Of course, I can understand the interpretation of "Heaven" is different from person to person. Hell, if anything, do we even know what "Heaven" looks like?

3. I wasn't sure how to conclude Jennifer's story after Rin ascends. I didn't want to go for the generic, "God sent a beam of light and blinded Jennifer as a sign of punishment". That sounded a little unrewarding. And if I added the epilogue, it would mean Jennifer is still lurking as a tanuki. And that would seem, like I said, unrewarding for readers.

4. It's a bit contradictory I can 100% agree with this one. Bare with me! I was originally going to add a scene where Rin would speak to God, that he would rather reincarnate 1000 times to be with Abigail and obtain a happy ending. OR God would see his love for Abigail was geniune, and give him one more chance to reincarnate as a human before he could fully become "enlightened". But to me, I felt like this was a bit of a cop out.

I do feel like the epilogue is only needed for those who are not satisfied with the current ending of Rin abandoning his humanity and ascending to a higher state.
1. Well it’s not “stupid” but as a reader I’d feel cheated. Following Rin the whole time and hoping he gets to be with Abigail and then “oh heya, I ascended boys” it’s kind of an emotional robbing. If his goal all along was ascension it would make more sense. Otherwise all the feelings of love that drove him to do good are meaningless.

2. I personally hate the “subjective” heaven idea because it makes me feel that what I’m reading isn’t concrete. Same reason I don’t like litRPGs with a system that seemingly operates without physics.

that’s a personal issue though. You’ll find a lot of people who love it.

3. That’s the thing, if the only threat she presents is words, it’s kind of meaningless. Unless she is able to deceive or convince Rin he should be evil again or pushes him off his path.

4. this is where I think you can’t really put it in the story with the established lore unless you decide to write a side story of Abigail’s ascension to be with Rin.
 

TheEldritchGod

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In contrast, the “losing humanity” idea doesn’t turn the ascended person into a robot but rather a new being that can be happy, where as the example here seems to indicate a severance of both the highs and lows.
Maybe there's some nuance we're missing. Either way, the author is asking for ideas and as such giving multiple points of view is the point.

Darkmatter2525 has a great video that actually addresses your concerns. I find his "The bible is an end-user agreement" that gives god control over your soul and he remakes you in a fashion that takes away your free will, to be a rather fascinating take on the subject.

If you have not seen Darkmatter2525 on youtube, I highly recommend it. He gets a bit preachy, but most of his arguments are spot on.
 

Anon2024

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Maybe there's some nuance we're missing. Either way, the author is asking for ideas and as such giving multiple points of view is the point.

Darkmatter2525 has a great video that actually addresses your concerns. I find his "The bible is an end-user agreement" that gives god control over your soul and he remakes you in a fashion that takes away your free will, to be a rather fascinating take on the subject.

If you have not seen Darkmatter2525 on youtube, I highly recommend it. He gets a bit preachy, but most of his arguments are spot on.
If you’re talking about the concept of giving up an earthly identity for a heavenly one, or the Christian transformation I know about it.

Although I haven’t seen the video if we are talking biblical ideas the soul is the combination of the earth and breath of god, although we are unique beings we have to still accept the transformation, however I don’t believe we lose our humanity by that transformation like in the context of the OP.
 

Daitengu

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Question: Why does Rin remember his last life? Generally one forgets their last life so they can move on in the natural cycle.
It's kinda why Buddhism has hells in some schools. Burn off the sin, memory wipe, reincarnate.

To give any answer I'd need that info at a minimum. I'd also like to know on who's authority and information Jennifer acts. Cause it could very well just not be her damn business.
 
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Without the specific rules of this setting, I am sticking with standardized meanings. If he alters heaven to be different from baseline "Heaven isn't like that" Situation, then that's fine. His story, his rules. However, he asked a question without many details, so the answer he gets will be left up to the perception of the observer.
Hmm...actually my impression wasn't the kind of heaven you mention i guess. Idk it reminds me of old chinese fable stories demons =bad and buddhist enlightenment and stuff/etc. Especially do you sacrifice enlightenment or go for love? But yes, it could be open up to interpretation.
 

Arkus86

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Without knowing what Rin did, I have to trust Jennifer about the scale of his crimes and good deeds. So her reasoning might be skewed, but it's not outright wrong.

I'm missing what is Jennifer's stake in this though. Is she just a self-proclaimed judge? Does she wage a personal revenge aginst Rin?
 
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