asking for free stuff

Zirrboy

Fueled by anger
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wow, i can't believe the forum decided to branch out its operation and opened its first tackle shop

look at all these BAITS!
The worst thing about baits is the presentation. Like, if I get a stroke just reading it, how am I supposed to rage properly?
 

BenJepheneT

Light Up Gold - Parquet Courts
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The worst thing about baits is the presentation. Like, if I get a stroke just reading it, how am I supposed to rage properly?
i think that was the main attempt; to have us end in a stroke, whether by its poor literacy, dumbass subject matter, or the combination of the two.
 

grandiddykane

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I get you, I think the craft of drawing and writing are not that different, but it's the market appeal that makes the difference. You can sell a customer on a picture in a moment, all they have to do is look at it. Writing however takes a commitment to see if it's even up their alley and even then there is so much room for the error that you can't just spot in a glance.

And nowadays where people's attention spans are as fast as their internet connection that's just gotten worst for us writers. So although I get where you coming from I feel it's the market appeal that chooses the value between the two.
writing is an underappreciated artform, and there's nothing we writers can ever do to bridge that gap between us and artists. what would you have us do? are we supposed to color our words red and blue and include 3D glasses inside of every book? or make it so that every letter is a different color of the rainbow? or maybe the pages themselves can have a cool frame? or we can play around with the fonts?

no.

being a novice has little to do with the quality of your writing. honestly, the only thing that matters is the time you put into it. there's a clear difference between someone who fleshes out every detail of their story (a planner), compared to someone who works everything out as they go along, on the fly (a pantser).

if the person who's doing the writing for your story is the latter, you may as well do it yourself cause you could most likely produce something of the same level, or even of better quality (though that's very rare either/or) than they could ever provide you with. the problem with this is that you'd be stretching yourself too thin and it would take longer before you see any results.

artists have this mentality where they think all writers just feel this bowel movement coming, rush to the bathroom, and crap words out onto a page. they don't know of the blood, sweat, and tears, the heart and soul, that go into every page. at least for some of us (me included).

i think if anyone ever in the future asks for free artwork, whether it be for the cover to a novel or a full on comic, they should show examples of their writing, or give an in-depth explanation on what the story will be about (not just the plot but themes you'd be planning to utilize as well), or if they already have their story out for the world to see, how large of a fan base do they already have?

that should be the deciding factor for artists. "do i see potential in this idea? is the story enough to keep me engaged, let alone the readers? is this story up my alley? can i deliver on what it is the op is looking for (artwork)?" the last thing on your mind should be about how much you would be getting paid.

you know what my answer would be if i was the one asking for an artist, promising them pay, and they asked me how much they'd be getting for their time? i'd tell em, "whatever we make off patreon." that's how it is for us, so why not them, right?

here's a scenario. imagine if i made a thread on here titled," making a comic, looking for an artist to help with that (paid)." what do you think the first response would be like? none of the aforementioned (paragraph 6), of course. instead, they'll shower you with their portfolios saying "they're interested", or ask how much will they be getting. not a single inquiry about your story. obviously later they would ask about it, but the first two things they always do is this.

and when you actually go into detail about what they'll be getting paid, you're scared shtless to suggest a 50/50 split, because god forbid. there's this consensus on every forum of this nature that artists are overall more important than the writers and that they make 99% of the story; that without them, none of it would be possible.

"okay then, does 60/40 sound about right?"

"cold"

"um, then 70/30?"

"warm."

"80/20?"

"warmer."

"90/10?"

"warmer."

"...99.9/0.1?"

"hot, hot, hot!"

so doodling some stick figures gives you people the right to be entitled assholes with inflated egos? because anyone can write, right? it's just that easy. you just pick up a pen and go, gO, GO! finito! masterpiece!

is that what we think. well you know what i think. i think writing is ten times as hard as drawing and ten times more significant.

let me ask you this. artists, if you drew the same pose countless times in repetition, would you say that the next time you draw that pose, you would have it practically mastered? you don't need to answer that, because I already have the answer. i know that unlike writers, artists have the ability to master their craft over time. but with us? it doesn't matter if you're a ny times best seller, it doesn't matter how many copies you sold, it doesn't matter how many books you've read or how many shows and movies you've watched, WRITING CAN NEVER BE MASTERED. not ever.

when you tackle a new project, you always start fresh. when you write you're first draft, it's always a jumbled mess. the insecurity never goes away. you'll never be as good. you think just because you have a magnum opus under your belt, it will get easier from here? nope. never. you will always be just that, a greenhorn. writers are like scientists. they don't have control over anything or everything, they just do whatever works, and if it works, it works. if it doesn't, then it doesn't. that's it. that's what writing is. discovery.

and now, about writing being more important than drawing. real quick, when you read a comic, would you say your time is spent more on gazing at the pictures or reading the words? well, there's your answer. and don't you dare try and lie to me or yourself. i saw a reaction of the latest chapter of the solo leveling manwha (at the time) and the guy reacting to it barely gave the illustrations a second glance, focusing only on the story. how do i know this? he was scrolling like a m'fer soon as he got done with reading a speech bubble. if you're one of those weirdos who does the opposite, good for you, but newsflash, you're in the minority.

so how about we show a little more appreciation towards our writers huh? they deserve it. the most an artist can do on their own is make a stupid gag comic, or a silent film type, or just a plain shitty comic because as i said before they stretch themselves far too thin. but real writers create whole ass worlds for us to sink our teeth into among many other things.

writers are heroes on the same level as doctors, police, fire men, you name it. they exist in everything we live and breathe today. without them we have nothing but our boring nine to fives to clock in to and our fake friends to hang out with, and seeing who cancel culture cancels next and working on correcting our pronouns.

**** a director. **** a cameraman. **** an actor. they all play their part, sure. but they're not what makes the show, and neither do artists. writers are at the core of everything and make it 100x better. breaking bad was only as good as it was because of the writer and the direction they took it in. game of thrones was only as good as it was because of the writer. people seem to forget it's their script that these people follow religiously. without that, THEY ARE NOTHING.

stop looking down on us. we arent some sweat shop workers or ants waiting to be squashed on. we have worth. and you know what. so do artists. i don't want you thinking I don't respect them as people, or for what they do, but it's not like they need me to say that because they literally have it said to them by everyone else. they believe they have a right to treat us like sht and it's because of you (in general) that they think this way. no one gives a crap about writers except when we conveniently happen to write their favorite stories. and let me tell you, your favorite story isn't your favorite story because of the art, it's your favorite story because of the writing.

another thing. I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ENTITLED. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING **** IF ARTISTS WANT TO GIVE ME A FREE COVER FOR MY NOVEL OR NOT, BUT DO NOT DENY ME OR ANYONE ELSE THEIR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH.

and yeah, i know, free speech works both ways, but you know what? no matter how many times you try and warn us, we won't stop. we'll always be those grimy hillbilly bumpkin cheapskates asking for free stuff because we're greedy. because that's what it is. it's not like we come from tough backgrounds or anything or are in a rough spot. nothing like that. just pure greed is what it is.

just in case you missed it, i do not respond to anyone unless they agree with me or if i feel like it, as i do not feel like going back and forth with you all for who knows how long.

so cya :) have a good day
 
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tridetect

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writing is an underappreciated artform, and there's nothing we writers can ever do to bridge that gap between us and artists. what would you have us do? are we supposed to color our words red and blue and include 3D glasses inside of every book? or make it so that every letter is a different color of the rainbow? or maybe the pages themselves can have a cool frame? or we can play around with the fonts?

no.

being a novice has little to do with the quality of your writing. honestly, the only thing that matters is the time you put into it. there's a clear difference between someone who fleshes out every detail of their story (a planner), compared to someone who works everything out as they go along, on the fly (a pantser).

if the person who's doing the writing for your story is the latter, you may as well do it yourself cause you could most likely produce something of the same level, or even of better quality (though that's very rare either/or) than they could ever provide you with. the problem with this is that you'd be stretching yourself too thin and it would take longer before you see any results.

artists have this mentality where they think all writers just feel this bowel movement coming, rush to the bathroom, and crap words out onto a page. they don't know of the blood, sweat, and tears, the heart and soul, that go into every page. at least for some of us (me included).

i think if anyone ever in the future asks for free artwork, whether it be for the cover to a novel or a full on comic, they should show examples of their writing, or give an in-depth explanation on what the story will be about (not just the plot but themes you'd be planning to utilize as well), or if they already have their story out for the world to see, how large of a fan base do they already have?

that should be the deciding factor for artists. "do i see potential in this idea? is the story enough to keep me engaged, let alone the readers? is this story up my alley? can i deliver on what it is the op is looking for (artwork)?" the last thing on your mind should be about how much you would be getting paid.

you know what my answer would be if i was the one asking for an artist, promising them pay, and they asked me how much they'd be getting for their time? i'd tell em, "whatever we make off patreon." that's how it is for us, so why not them, right?

here's a scenario. imagine if i made a thread on here titled," making a comic, looking for an artist to help with that (paid)." what do you think the first response would be like? none of the aforementioned (paragraph 6), of course. instead, they'll shower you with their portfolios saying "they're interested", or ask how much will they be getting. not a single inquiry about your story. obviously later they would ask about it, but the first two things they always do is this.

and when you actually go into detail about what they'll be getting paid, you're scared shtless to suggest a 50/50 split, because god forbid. there's this consensus on every forum of this nature that artists are overall more important than the writers and that they make 99% of the story; that without them, none of it would be possible.

"okay then, does 60/40 sound about right?"

"cold"

"um, then 70/30?"

"warm."

"80/20?"

"warmer."

"90/10?"

"warmer."

"...99.9/0.1?"

"hot, hot, hot!"

so doodling some stick figures gives you people the right to be entitled assholes with inflated egos? because anyone can write, right? it's just that easy. you just pick up a pen and go, gO, GO! finito! masterpiece!

is that what we think. well you know what i think. i think writing is ten times as hard as drawing and ten times more significant.

let me ask you this. artists, if you drew the same pose countless times in repetition, would you say that the next time you draw that pose, you would have it practically mastered? you don't need to answer that, because I already have the answer. i know that unlike writers, artists have the ability to master their craft over time. but with us? it doesn't matter if you're a ny times best seller, it doesn't matter how many copies you sold, it doesn't matter how many books you've read or how many shows and movies you've watched, WRITING CAN NEVER BE MASTERED. not ever.

when you tackle a new project, you always start fresh. when you write you're first draft, it's always a jumbled mess. the insecurity never goes away. you'll never be as good. you think just because you have a magnum opus under your belt, it will get easier from here? nope. never. you will always be just that, a greenhorn. writers are like scientists. they don't have control over anything or everything, they just do whatever works, and if it works, it works. if it doesn't, then it doesn't. that's it. that's what writing is. discovery.

and now, about writing being more important than drawing. real quick, when you read a comic, would you say your time is spent more on gazing at the pictures or reading the words? well, there's your answer. and don't you dare try and lie to me or yourself. i saw a reaction of the latest chapter of the solo leveling manwha (at the time) and the guy reacting to it barely gave the illustrations a second glance, focusing only on the story. how do i know this? he was scrolling like a m'fer soon as he got done with reading a speech bubble. if you're one of those weirdos who does the opposite, good for you, but newsflash, you're in the minority.

so how about we show a little more appreciation towards our writers huh? they deserve it. the most an artist can do on their own is make a stupid gag comic, or a silent film type, or just a plain shitty comic because as i said before they stretch themselves far too thin. but real writers create whole ass worlds for us to sink our teeth into among many other things.

writers are heroes on the same level as doctors, police, fire men, you name it. they exist in everything we live and breathe today. without them we have nothing but our boring nine to fives to clock in to and our fake friends to hang out with, and seeing who cancel culture cancels next and working on correcting our pronouns.

**** a director. **** a cameraman. **** an actor. they all play their part, sure. but they're not what makes the show, and neither do artists. writers are at the core of everything and make it 100x better. breaking bad was only as good as it was because of the writer and the direction they took it in. game of thrones was only as good as it was because of the writer. people seem to forget it's their script that these people follow religiously. without that, THEY ARE NOTHING.

stop looking down on us. we arent some sweat shop workers or ants waiting to be squashed on. we have worth. and you know what. so do artists. i don't want you thinking I don't respect them as people, or for what they do, but it's not like they need me to say that because they literally have it said to them by everyone else. they believe they have a right to treat us like sht and it's because of you (in general) that they think this way. no one gives a crap about writers except when we conveniently happen to write their favorite stories. and let me tell you, your favorite story isn't your favorite story because of the art, it's your favorite story because of the writing.

another thing. I AM NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM ENTITLED. I DON'T GIVE A FLYING **** IF ARTISTS WANT TO GIVE ME A FREE COVER FOR MY NOVEL OR NOT, BUT DO NOT DENY ME OR ANYONE ELSE THEIR RIGHT TO FREE SPEECH.

and yeah, i know, free speech works both ways, but you know what? no matter how many times you try and warn us, we won't stop. we'll always be those grimy hillbilly bumpkin cheapskates asking for free stuff because we're greedy. because that's what it is. it's not like we come from tough backgrounds or anything or are in a rough spot. nothing like that. just pure greed is what it is.

just in case you missed it, i do not respond to anyone unless they agree with me or if i feel like it, as i do not feel like going back and forth with you all for who knows how long.

so cya :) have a good day
Well said. I agree with you.
 

EternalSunset0

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Won't bother quoting because he won't respond anyway, and I really am not in the mood for back and forth arguments. But I wanna get my two cents out since I never contributed to the thread yet other than assuming stuff about his account.

Good writers being underappreciated? Sure. But how did you come to the conclusion of "omg we writers so looked down!" out of people wanting to get paid for drawing for you? If you wanna make art for someone, it's never a prerequisite to know the plot. You, as an artist, do that so you get the "feel" of the scenes you're drawing, but it's never a priority if your art is what's being asked for.

Why should a good artist reject getting paid to draw for a story he doesn't like? When it's a big chance for growth, advertisement reach (no matter how small it is), and to expand a portfolio?

I feel that the source of the issue is that... it's just that the bar for "passable" writing is a lot lower than for art. I put in passable in quotes because while it won't apply to people like you who have high standards, webnovel trends and such indicates that it applies to a lot of people. And we're on a webnovel site.

You talked about it sarcastically, but it really IS easier for someone to write than to draw if you take that statement literally.

That's why some people write. Because they dont have the skills to draw and make their cool idea into a video game, a movie, an anime, a TV serial, a comic, a theatrical production, a musical, etc. They don't know how to code. They don't know how to draw pages after pages of a webcomic. Not to mention the coloring and shading. They can't hire actors or performers. Writing is the form of "creative production" that has the lowest barrier of entry and the lowest time investment to put something out that people will accept.

That people will accept. I'm not saying good.

Think of it this way.

Get some clueless guy a keyboard, a word processor, and basic grammar lessons, and he can come up with a story. Terrible? Yes. Plot that makes no sense? Maybe.

But with a good gauge at what the market wants, the proper premise/tags, and decent pacing as well as the right timing of publishing, you'll get people to gobble that shit up and have it trend. Heck, get the person to improve a bit and you can extend it more and maybe even get an actual book adaptation with a proper editor then eventually a YA movie.

Is it good? I dunno. Likely not because it's by someone who doesn't know how write. But it gets the job done of having readership, and that's what matters. That's why we publish online. Everyone wants readers. Some just want them less or have it as a lower priority than others.

For art? Try posting literal stick figures unironically and see if it will get any traction at all outside of select people memeing it up or intentionally doing it.

Bottomline is that for writing, there seems to be more leeway for bad ones getting rewarded than for art. Which is why people are more hesitant in giving art away as compared to stories as you stated in your first post. It's harder to please a typical client as an artist than as a writer, and experience on sites like this and places like DA have taught me that.

Take a chill pill btw. I know you're capable of talking in a civilized and not so ranty manner, like how you replied to Kilolo. It will make discussions like this way more productive.
 
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SailusGebel

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For art? Try posting literal stick figures unironically and see if it will get any traction at all outside of select people memeing it up or intentionally doing it.
No offense meant, but people do post terrible bottom-level art and get praised for it. Cause criticizing it is, well, a dick move, and it's obvious that the art is trash, and people try to be nice or ignore this art. Dunno why artists can't do the same and ignore people who ask for free art nicely.
 

YuriDoggo

Angery Doggo >ᴗ<
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People don't criticize it because it's a literal stick figure and you can't be unironic about it. People who step into that trap are the real idiots and no one wants to be an idiot.

Now you actually try drawing you might get people giving you tips or whatever, but most of the time shitty art gets ignored. Just like how people who post shitty writing get ignored. If you post a shitty drawing and act all proud of it (like it's actually good, and not as a mark of your improvement), people will definitely mock you if they don't outright ignore you.

Besides, why are you equating "post terrible art and get ignored" with "ask for free art and getting ignored?" One is a "giving" relationship and the other is "receiving."

A better example would be an artist asking a writer if they'll write them a story for free, and most of the time the answer will be no. The better the writer, the higher the chance of rejection and ridicule.
A shitty artist who draws lopsided faces may will have a higher chance of saying yes and calling it practice, just like a shitty writer might do the same.
 

EternalSunset0

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No offense meant, but people do post terrible bottom-level art and get praised for it. Cause criticizing it is, well, a dick move, and it's obvious that the art is trash, and people try to be nice or ignore this art. Dunno why artists can't do the same and ignore people who ask for free art nicely.
No offense taken.

As for the criticism and dick move parts, I think a more accurate correlation to it, instead of the asking for free art situation, is when someone writes something terrible. People try to be nice or ignore trash art, so they should also be nice or ignore trash writing is the correlation I'm getting.

Looks like Yuri typed out my thoughts before I did haha
 

SailusGebel

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No offense taken.

As for the criticism and dick move parts, I think a more accurate correlation to it, instead of the asking for free art situation, is when someone writes something terrible. People try to be nice or ignore trash art, so they should also be nice or ignore trash writing is the correlation I'm getting.
Your correlation is right, but what I mean is, instead of dumping on something you don't like, ignore it. Once again, a person asks something nicely. Okay, if you had a bad experience previously, you can ignore this shit. Just ignore it if a person is nice. If it's someone obnoxious, I will trash him as well; it's a no-brainer. But I just can't wrap my head around thrashing someone who asks nicely. I don't go acting passive-aggressive towards people who 'wronged' me; why do they do?
 

EternalSunset0

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A better example would be an artist asking a writer if they'll write them a story for free, and most of the time the answer will be no. The better the writer, the higher the chance of rejection and ridicule.
A shitty artist who draws lopsided faces may will have a higher chance of saying yes and calling it practice, just like a shitty writer might do the same.
On this, though, I think it's the OP's source of frustration in that people are way more willing to give out stories for free compared to art. People easily write for others for free, whereas people typically don't want to give art away for free. It pretty much boils down to just people's standards and their idea of time investment, I guess.

For me, it's also the fact that that writing IS really easier than drawing. Physically speaking. All you need is a keyboard, a word processor, and decent grammar. Possible in thirty minutes if you don't bother editing or thinking much. Quite literally the "writers can sit and crap words out" thing he's saying.

For art, you'll have to invest on a tablet or master clicking and lining with a mouse, study anatomy, practice on your lines, and such. It will take literal hours on end. All to make a "passable" piece that won't have your client complaining.

Writing's just easier as far as "passable in that you'll be praised and not ridiculed" goes, if we're talking the general public, if experience is anything to go by. Obviously, this does not apply to OP, given his beliefs and the standards that I can infer, but I digress. Generally, from my observation, the standards people have for art that they'll get is just higher.

It's not about commissions, but the point I'm getting at is similar. Good writing takes a lot of hours of thought, practice, planning, and such, but you don't have to give "good in a critical sense" writing to get paid by some random artist in DA or some other site who wants a story. Whereas for art, you have to up your game a bit before people will even consider paying you the minimum.

This does not solve OP's frustrations and even supports it, but at least that answers the "why" question.

Your correlation is right, but what I mean is, instead of dumping on something you don't like, ignore it. Once again, a person asks something nicely. Okay, if you had a bad experience previously, you can ignore this shit. Just ignore it if a person is nice. If it's someone obnoxious, I will trash him as well; it's a no-brainer. But I just can't wrap my head around thrashing someone who asks nicely. I don't go acting passive-aggressive towards people who 'wronged' me; why do they do?
Definitely. This I agree with. I don't see why people need to be super aggressive, too. Heck, I think this thread's the most hostile (?) I've been in the one year plus I've been here, so at least I think I have the right to talk about this lol. I think a softer approach is better if you do have to tell the guy off for some reason.
 
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I feel that the source of the issue is that... it's just that the bar for "passable" writing is a lot lower than for art. I put in passable in quotes because while it won't apply to people like you who have high standards, webnovel trends and such indicates that it applies to a lot of people. And we're on a webnovel site.

You talked about it sarcastically, but it really IS easier for someone to write than to draw if you take that statement literally.

That's why some people write. Because they dont have the skills to draw and make their cool idea into a video game, a movie, an anime, a TV serial, a comic, a theatrical production, a musical, etc. They don't know how to code. They don't know how to draw pages after pages of a webcomic. Not to mention the coloring and shading. They can't hire actors or performers. Writing is the form of "creative production" that has the lowest barrier of entry and the lowest time investment to put something out that people will accept.
you know I was joking when I said that artists have big egos. I had little interactions with any, but now I'm seriously reconsidering this. Their egos are unfathomable. I think it might even be borderline delusions.
 

SailusGebel

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Definitely. This I agree with. I don't see why people need to be super aggressive, too. Heck, I think this thread's the most hostile (?) I've been in the one year plus I've been here, so at least I think I have the right to talk about this lol. I think a softer approach is better if you do have to tell the guy off for some reason.
Yeah, and the thing is, artists are the most aggressive bunch from my personal experience. I even asked my friend, who is a professional video editor. I asked him what he or his colleagues do if someone asks them on a forum or a site to edit a video for free. The answer was, he would either ignore it or do it if the idea was nice. Same for his colleagues. And I think video editing is a bit harder than drawing.
 

EternalSunset0

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Yeah, and the thing is, artists are the most aggressive bunch from my personal experience. I even asked my friend, who is a professional video editor. I asked him what he or his colleagues do if someone asks them on a forum or a site to edit a video for free. The answer was, he would either ignore it or do it if the idea was nice. Same for his colleagues. And I think video editing is a bit harder than drawing.
I can definitely see that. And yeah, video editing is way harder and time-consuming.
 

YuriDoggo

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On the other hand, you also have artists silently selling their art for super cheap, so you should just chalk it up to artists who post on social media are naturally bigger-mouthed and have bigger ego... because less loud people are less likely to be on social media. So there's that natural selection of who enters your perspective.

If you ask someone who never post on this forum if they're willing to write something for you, it'll probably be higher compared to if you asked one of us loudmouths. A few years ago, I'd probably just at the chance at writing for someone. Now, I'd probably be very very picky (also due to my more developed and narrowed interests).

Even without my obsession for yuri, I have enough confidence now that my time is better spent writing my own stuff than writing for someone else for free.
 

grandiddykane

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i don't understand why they had to move the thread. i posted it in artists, requests section and that's exactly what i did, request that artists change their ways.
 

KiraMinoru

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You’ve got people like Damien Hirst selling a fucking grid of polka dots on a white background for millions upon millions of dollars and you don’t want to pay the people who can actually draw more than different colored dots on a piece of paper. If they don’t get paid all the art we’re going to have is fucking polka dots because that seems to be where the money is at. This entire thread is a waste of brain cells.

Good god, abstract art is such a bloody scam. Go bitch about the abstract artists in university who’ve mercilessly fucked the really talented free lance no-name artists in the ass. Artists have every right to be pissed off when there’s this sort of disparity and injustice.

Art isn’t even about art anymore. It’s literally about who can come up with the most bullshit meaning in a blank piece of paper to launder money. You say writers are unappreciated? I say not, just give a blank piece of paper a good enough short story with nonsense “meaning” and you’ll be raining in money as long as you can scam some dumbass rich bastard with bloated pockets.
 
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