Casting spells with/ without materials, which is more orthodox?

NotaNuffian

This does spark joy.
Joined
Nov 26, 2019
Messages
3,626
Points
183
So basically due to too much MMORPGs and stuff, I have always thought that mages (Wizards in this case cuz players level up and learn spells) require only to know the spell and have adequate mana to use magic. Same in Mushoku, same in most JP novels, same in Supreme Magus (including hand gestures) and I thought it is same everywhere.

Then I reread the dumpster fire that is Mages are OP (basically Roland *...I hate that name* has the ability to draw the magic circle in his head and use magic on the whim) has this mechanism that I missed, Roland has two traits that makes him OP, Magic Understanding (ie he good at picture circles in his head) and Require No Materials for casting. It is the second one that bothered me the most because I am reading up on spells in DnD for some of the stories I write and the limitations of using materials to cast spells is troublesome at best.

Now, I understand that DnD focuses on fairness while wish fulfilment novels have the tendency to say "FUCK IT, Ima make magic with blackjacks and hookers" and go put up limits like Mana Points. I infer that DnD's spell slots are like Mana points in the novel (so that no one can eldritch blast/ fire ball their way endlessly in a round) and I thought to myself, why is there a lack of such things in MMORPGs, that led to novels with litrpgs lacking the needs of materials too?

So far I only got one idea and if you have any, please write. Thanks.

It would not be fun for the players playing mage in these games if they have to deal with two resources instead of one. For example of a non-magical character that is mid range like mages, the archer. He uses up arrows, one resource. So in terms of fairness, the mage itself should not be burdened with managing two resources instead of one. If you have an example like a MMORPG, please write. Thanks.
 

LoakaOfTheWind

Active member
Joined
Oct 2, 2021
Messages
2
Points
43
In Dungeons and Dragons, spell slots are basically fuel for a spell. Some spells require better fuel (higher level spell slots), while you can enhance weaker spells with that better fuel instead.

Materials, on the other hand, are rarely bothered with. Every remotely modern edition of D&D gives spellcasters some kind of item to start with (like a wand, or a staff, or what-have-you) called a 'focus' to substitute for these materials. Unless specified, these materials aren't used up. This means you don't need to go find more bat guano and sulfur to cast another Fireball, but something big and important like Resurrection demands you pay up 1,000 GP worth of diamond dust (so that having the spell doesn't invalidate death entirely).

In MMO terms, a Fighter has his Bow as his weapon, and counts his Arrows like a resource, while a Wizard has his Staff (focus) as his weapon, and counts his Spell Slots as the resource. Lots of video games kind of ignore how D&D does magic because D&D itself largely ignores it too. It'd be needlessly fiddly to have a game say "Yeah, you can cast your spell with your staff, but also with this obscure item in hand". Consequently, lots of other media ignores these materials, and it's more common to see systems without it.

A good example of a story that does use materials to cast magic is Fates Parallel (and probably a bunch of other Xianxia/Wuxia stuff) where mages cast spells using prepared talismans. A mage gets the disadvantage of having to do a bunch of prep time, but gets to arrive to a fight with a spell for every occasion.
 

BearlyAlive

Certfied Super Secret Final Secret Final Boss
Joined
Oct 13, 2021
Messages
1,219
Points
153
Using materials or multiple people for bigger or special spells is pretty common. But it's more common to just use intangible things like lifeforce, mana or other magic batteries.

D&D magic sounds like western folklore alchemy. Using A to turn B into C (or making a deal with thr devil to go full FMA).

Using proxies like talismans or charms is still pretty common in western media, tho.
 

Bloodysin28

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 7, 2019
Messages
60
Points
58
So basically due to too much MMORPGs and stuff, I have always thought that mages (Wizards in this case cuz players level up and learn spells) require only to know the spell and have adequate mana to use magic. Same in Mushoku, same in most JP novels, same in Supreme Magus (including hand gestures) and I thought it is same everywhere.

Then I reread the dumpster fire that is Mages are OP (basically Roland *...I hate that name* has the ability to draw the magic circle in his head and use magic on the whim) has this mechanism that I missed, Roland has two traits that makes him OP, Magic Understanding (ie he good at picture circles in his head) and Require No Materials for casting. It is the second one that bothered me the most because I am reading up on spells in DnD for some of the stories I write and the limitations of using materials to cast spells is troublesome at best.

Now, I understand that DnD focuses on fairness while wish fulfilment novels have the tendency to say "FUCK IT, Ima make magic with blackjacks and hookers" and go put up limits like Mana Points. I infer that DnD's spell slots are like Mana points in the novel (so that no one can eldritch blast/ fire ball their way endlessly in a round) and I thought to myself, why is there a lack of such things in MMORPGs, that led to novels with litrpgs lacking the needs of materials too?

So far I only got one idea and if you have any, please write. Thanks.

It would not be fun for the players playing mage in these games if they have to deal with two resources instead of one. For example of a non-magical character that is mid range like mages, the archer. He uses up arrows, one resource. So in terms of fairness, the mage itself should not be burdened with managing two resources instead of one. If you have an example like a MMORPG, please write. Thanks.
Except equality is greatest bullshit lie ever told. The only thing that makes humans equal on is death.
 

Anon_Y_Mousse

Semicolon Enjoyer
Joined
Feb 24, 2020
Messages
698
Points
133
In a writing perspective no materials is more orthodox. Spellcasting in my novel generally requires materials, and I always have to rack my head thinking of components that make sense and not just ripping it out of DnD(Though tbh my magic system is so blatantly DnD that I feel like it won't change anything if I do).

Anyways, magic is supposedly supernatural so it would make sense for the phenomenons to draw power from an unknown source(like mana being a particle you can harness through a focus). I think some novels use stuff like stones for casting, and talismans/magical artifacts as mentioned above.
 

MR.DANTE

Active member
Joined
Dec 15, 2020
Messages
68
Points
33
requiring materials for all spells means a lot of staff to carry around and limited usability in combat, a physical class would just demolish a mage in almost all scenarios save for a few where mages have time and are defended or are prepared in advance for the situation.
most magic systems still require material or preparation for the most demanding task or for permanent magic work but demanding to sacrifice some material for basic spells just make it unappealing and expensive
 

Arkus86

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
253
Points
103
As far as I recall, magic in folklore usually requires specific regeants and steps to follow, so you could call that more orthodox.

As for games, Runescape uses a system where spells consume runes from your inventory, with several categories of runes and each spell requiring different number of runes with different combinations of their categories.
 

Cipiteca396

🌺🌑🐉🪶 Anxiety Overdrive
Joined
Jun 6, 2021
Messages
2,138
Points
153
Materials is definitely more orthodox.

Technically speaking, even in cases where materials aren't used, they still often are. A lot of magic is bloodline based, meaning that instead of using esoteric components, a mage uses their flesh and blood as casting components.

Personally, I like to use components, chants, visualizations and whatnot as 'shortcuts'. Ways to make the extremely difficult practice of using magic easier. Or, at least controllable. A skilled/knowledgeable mage can forgo components with a proper understanding.
That means using components is kind of a primitive practice, but unlike with technology, a primitive method may actually enhance the output since it lets the mage focus on more important things.
 

TotallyHuman

It's good to be home.
Joined
Feb 13, 2019
Messages
3,995
Points
183
I can't imagine writing magic with materials. That sounds so bothersome and overly cluttered. I also doubt the readers would care for the random shit I manage to come up with to use for spells. Who cares that the character had to go on a fetch quest for a little boy's nails and a 100 year old cow horn to cast a spell if its not that significant for the story progress?
Unless there's build up for the materials required (i.e the motivation and the foreshadowing and what not for the fetch quest), I see no reason to ever bother with it.

As for what is more orthodox? I guess material casting. At least historically, we see the shamans and what not smoking weed and using cow blood and shit. Alchemy also used materials. I dunno, I'm no historian

P. S. One may also go on the route of having a handful of spells that the characters use and stock materials for that, which would also add more depth and weight to the story, and would generally be more interesting to read, but writing a story where a mage is limited to being a one-trick pony, is something I don't see myself doing
 
Last edited:

irei1as

Active member
Joined
Aug 1, 2021
Messages
16
Points
43
A classic videogame with a magic that used materials is "Secret of Evermore". It could look cool sometimes but having to grind for materials to level up the magic was not fun.

FF8 had the infamous draw system. That can be seen as magic with the need of an item.

Aside from physical materials there are some media that used the soul or memories as catalysts. Those are finite so it's similar.
Certain pig-cursed fighter needed despair for a powerful skill (he can't use it if he's happy).

And it seems that if a black mage has a weird body odour it's because those magic components needed for magic he carries around.
 

SailusGebel

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 7, 2020
Messages
8,867
Points
233
Oh, I remembered something. In Bloodborne, the player uses silver bullets to cast magic. Though, it's not exactly what you want as there is no mana there.
 

Leyligne

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 17, 2021
Messages
52
Points
58
I agree, requiring materials is more otrthodox. It’s traditional in the West, from eye of newt to runestones. Even in Eastern fiction, they‘re scarfing up thousand year ginseng and various herbs.

But just because it’s tradition, doesn’t mean you can’t have fun with it. I think of gunmages, who can put their reagents in their bullets. A number 7 for a fireball kind of thing. Most cultivators put their reagents inside their own bodies. It needn’t be cumbersome, unless you’re doing an alchemist litRPG. That’s when you want cumbersome.
 

Biggest-Kusa-Out-There

Futanari Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 30, 2021
Messages
350
Points
103
Using materials would be orthodox, but demonstrably wrong.

Using DnD as a base for a magic system is a slippery slope. It's a system that allows Centaurs to ride Horses because a centaur can only run as fast as a human... both being medium sized creatures. So yeah... not very good basis for virtually anything other than creature ideas and very few spells.
The idea of regents for spells are an obstacle to keep player power in check, nothing else. It doesn't expand the plot, it doesn't make characters more complex, it doesn't make the world more interesting. Complex? Yes. Fun? No.
If I write about a smartphone and explain I need to buy a mobile charger once a day... would that be fun? Because it's practically the same. It more often than not halts the progress of the story, and is usually explained away in a single line. "Bobby 3 nuts went to the market and bought the ingredients for 69420 gold coins." You know... like in DnD. It's a wealth check to stop power creep.

Now, if the thing that makes magic work is an outside fuel that is not present inside people, then it'd be better to just have a catalyst as others have mentioned.
If the magic thing is inside people, however, then that already is the fuel to cast magic. A mage would only need to learn how to channel it. A staff could make the spell 'cheaper' or 'stronger' as a focus of some sort like a magnifier.

The pursuit of uniqueness shouldn't be burdened with unnecessary clutter that serves no real purpose outside of when it matters. You'd be creating a parasitic system where you get the ingredients not when you use them but during downtime.
 

ElijahRyne

Not that Lazy…
Joined
Aug 12, 2021
Messages
898
Points
133
Material is more orthodox, I believe this is what separates magic from psychics. If you define material as anything from a grain of sand to time, or mana.

When you are able to control magic with your thoughts, you are no longer spell casting.
 
Top