Changing the rating system

Status
Not open for further replies.

Shiver

Well-known member
Joined
Aug 7, 2020
Messages
37
Points
48
So, I've mentioned this before in other threads, but I'd thought I'd make a thread to ask for a change in the 5-star system used on SH and add my reasoning to it.
Apologies if this has already been discussed and turned down.

Going by the number of threads about 1-star ratings and trolls I've seen appear over the six weeks since I started posting here, it has to be apparent that the 'give your 1 through 5-star rating' for a story causes a lot of frustration among authors when they see those inevitable 1-stars.
Now I know Tony can check out the ratings and will remove those that look like trolling, but that gives him more work to do and doesn't solve the underlying issue.

Youtube published the figures back in 2009 when they switched from their 5-star rating system;
The gist of it is that while a few people carefully consider their star ratings, the overwhelming majority of people use a 5 star to show they like something and 1 star to show they dislike something.
I do not think it's different here.

So I propose a like-dislike binary system.
That would make it clear what the reader thinks of the novel, and every account's opinion carries the same weight.
So no more single one-stars tanking the novel's rating and demotivating the author and/or giving Tony more work.

Now I understand the worth of a visual five-star rating in choosing which novels you want to look at -not to mention whatever math magic the site uses it for to figure things out with-, but switching to a like-dislike binary system doesn't have to change that.
A simple percentage-based system of the number of likes/dislikes compared to the total amount of votes would give an excellent place to base the star rating on.
A 100% of accounts liking the novel would give a 5-star visual. 1 in 10 liking it would give a 0,5 star visual, etc.

That's it, cheers.
 

GDLiZy

Tale Admirer
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
598
Points
133
Just as you say that "it is meh don't vote" is not a valid argument, "it gives an option" is not a valid argument either.

And as I said, like/dislike is not about the quality of the work. You liking something doesn't mean it is great nor you disliking something doesn't mean it is not good. Like/dislike pretty much don't have a middle option (indifferent) because it does not matter.

Stop thinking that like/dislike is the same as rating system with the middle options removed. That like=5 star and dislike=1 star.

That doesn't matter. What we should be concerned is if it works or not.

The thing is, humans are not perfect. You are kinda saying that it would work if only we are faultless, perfect. But, we aren't and never will be.
Ah, I see.

If that is the case, I'll have to choose the star rating instead of the like-dislike system. I would pretty much prefer some nuanced indication of quality more than just I like it and I don't like it. I'm not a fan of like/dislike because it allowed too much bias.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
Ah, I see.

If that is the case, I'll have to choose the star rating instead of the like-dislike system. I would pretty much prefer some nuanced indication of quality more than just I like it and I don't like it. I'm not a fan of like/dislike because it allowed too much bias.
I don't really understand how like/dislike allow for too much bias. Like, people complaining about one star and two star rating as trolling, the general allergy against low ratings that had people crying, and Tony coming to delete them is not bias? Having the majority of the rating be 5 stars, is that not bias? From what I see, star ratings allows for a lot of bias too.

Though, I agree that it allows for more nuance, it is just rare that people use this feature. As said before, the middling ratings (2,3,4) where you will find the nuance you are looking for, are rarely used. 1 star ratings (and now 2 might get included) are hated, discouraged and always on the block for deletion by Tony. While the 5 star ratings proliferate because authors love it, is encouraged and no one really ask for Tony to delete them (for obvious reasons, not that Tony would do that if he don't want people going at him with pitchforks). The nuance is pretty much gone, nor do the ratings actually reflect the works quality.

And, people aren't really good at judging quality. Let them compare a classic art (say The Nigh Watch) and a generic scantily clad waifu girl and they will rate waifu as above the classic.
 
Last edited:

GDLiZy

Tale Admirer
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
598
Points
133
I don't really understand how like/dislike allow for too much bias. Like, people complaining about one star and two star rating as trolling, the general allergy against low ratings that had people crying, and Tony coming to delete them is not bias? Having the majority of the rating be 5 stars, is that not bias? From what I see, star ratings allows for a lot of bias too.

Though, I agree that it allows for more nuance, it is just rare that people use this feature. As said before, the middling ratings (2,3,4) where you will find the nuance you are looking for, are rarely used. 1 star ratings (and now 2 might get included) are hated, discouraged and always on the block for deletion by Tony. While the 5 star ratings proliferate because authors love it, is encouraged and no one really ask for Tony to delete them (for obvious reasons, not that Tony would do that if he don't want people going at him with pitchforks). Nor do those 5 star ratings really reflect the actual quality of the story. The nuance is pretty much gone, nor do the ratings actually reflect the works quality.

And, people aren't really good at judging quality. Let them compare a classic art (say The Nigh Watch) and a generic scantily clad waifu girl and they will rate waifu as above the classic.
I don't know how Tony judges the rating to be trolled or not, but if he did it based on the complaint thread and not because he knew some bots from the same IP were 1-staring everything, then I'll judge him for falsifying the rating.

At least the star rating still presents some choices for those who will use the nuanced part. We can combine it into something like steam rating, which imo better than just separated like and dislike.

Now it's time to complain and generally call people out. I don't get how people "know" someone is "trolling" them with a one-star rating (or two, because my work is so perfect and it can never get anything lower than three [three and four will be next, won't it]). Like, are you that egoistic, or that fragile? If it's the bot army, then tony would have gone to delete it by himself. If it's just one person who rated a lot of the story they read low, then maybe that person's standard is higher than yours?

Simply, there is no way to prove that the "trolls" are trolls who deliberately rate your story low because of his amusement or some unknown agenda. Either you have to be so egoistic (my work is perfect), or mentally fragile (why even post your story anyway?), or shameless to flame them without any evidence in the SHF where you can tell your side of the story and have others consulting you and insulting the unsuspecting person who might or might not be a troll.

If you have any concrete evidence, such as an objectively false review or clear intention to troll, then all is well, but most of what I saw wasn't even close to reasonable doubt.
 

LostLibrarian

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
709
Points
133
I'm pretty much open to anything, but I would like to address one thing that started the discussion and kinda fell off the train when the usual stars vs likes discussion began.

The starting point of the thread was that a lot of writers open threads about trolling 1* ratings, we have people flip out because of a single bad rating, we call trolls when all stories on the new releases get a rating bomb or whatever. That's the situation we have. But no matter which system (again, no motivation to go into that minefield) this situation wouldn't change.

Just renaming the 1* rating different as "dislike" won't change anything about that situation. Authors will still perceive their the like/dislike-ratio as a rating of their work and quality, because that is also what we are trained to expect from sites with such rating systems. Any youtube video without a vastly bigger number of likes is already a questionable video, a 50/50 rating already screams not worth the time. And yeah, this comes (just like with the 5* and 1* ratings) simply from the fact, that mostly people who want to like the video/story will take their time to consume it and rate it afterwards.

But with that perception in mind, would the situation change? The like/dislike-ratio will become the new quality sign, stories with a lot of dislikes will turn users off just like stories with a lot of 1stars. So nothing big will change there. And the new authors and their first 1star ratings? Do you guys really think they'll keep silent and agree with their first dislike? We'll still discuss dislike-bombs on all new releases while asking Tony to take care of it, new authors who get 2 or 3 dislikes will still feel like shit, the whole toxicity still stays in the system.


I mean, there are still arguments for both rating systems, although I would rather try and find a third option. If it's about the authors, even if you take away the dislike function completely, they'll still feel like shit when their work has 1/10th of the positive ratings compared with similar stories. So yeah, I won't take sides with any rating system, because I haven't found one I personally liked. But the starting post argument that a change would better the situation for both the authors and Tony... I can't see that at all...
 

Maple-Leaf

•Deceased
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
681
Points
108
I really don't agree with this argument. In the first place not only do readers mostly rate 1 or 5 which obliterates this nuance you are talking of when only two factors weight so heavily but authors themselves ignore this "nuanced" ratings because they don't carry much impact. I mean, what will affect an author more "this horrible" "it is okay" "it is really great?" I bet "it is okay" is going to be invisible.

The binary system is not wholly terrible and likewise for the current one, it's just too minor of a change to get it adjusted. It wont do anything except make the people who want it happy. It's not worth the time, if you ask me.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
I don't know how Tony judges the rating to be trolled or not, but if he did it based on the complaint thread and not because he knew some bots from the same IP were 1-staring everything, then I'll judge him for falsifying the rating.

At least the star rating still presents some choices for those who will use the nuanced part. We can combine it into something like steam rating, which imo better than just separated like and dislike.

Now it's time to complain and generally call people out. I don't get how people "know" someone is "trolling" them with a one-star rating (or two, because my work is so perfect and it can never get anything lower than three [three and four will be next, won't it]). Like, are you that egoistic, or that fragile? If it's the bot army, then tony would have gone to delete it by himself. If it's just one person who rated a lot of the story they read low, then maybe that person's standard is higher than yours?

Simply, there is no way to prove that the "trolls" are trolls who deliberately rate your story low because of his amusement or some unknown agenda. Either you have to be so egoistic (my work is perfect), or mentally fragile (why even post your story anyway?), or shameless to flame them without any evidence in the SHF where you can tell your side of the story and have others consulting you and insulting the unsuspecting person who might or might not be a troll.

If you have any concrete evidence, such as an objectively false review or clear intention to troll, then all is well, but most of what I saw wasn't even close to reasonable doubt.
Well, what I was trying to say that, of all ratings, 1 star is the one that is on the block for deletion (or maybe the 2 star too). That already presents bias. I mean, can't you make a bot that rates a story 5 stars? But no one would check. After all, we are discussing about bias.
I'm pretty much open to anything, but I would like to address one thing that started the discussion and kinda fell off the train when the usual stars vs likes discussion began.

The starting point of the thread was that a lot of writers open threads about trolling 1* ratings, we have people flip out because of a single bad rating, we call trolls when all stories on the new releases get a rating bomb or whatever. That's the situation we have. But no matter which system (again, no motivation to go into that minefield) this situation wouldn't change.

Just renaming the 1* rating different as "dislike" won't change anything about that situation. Authors will still perceive their the like/dislike-ratio as a rating of their work and quality, because that is also what we are trained to expect from sites with such rating systems. Any youtube video without a vastly bigger number of likes is already a questionable video, a 50/50 rating already screams not worth the time. And yeah, this comes (just like with the 5* and 1* ratings) simply from the fact, that mostly people who want to like the video/story will take their time to consume it and rate it afterwards.

But with that perception in mind, would the situation change? The like/dislike-ratio will become the new quality sign, stories with a lot of dislikes will turn users off just like stories with a lot of 1stars. So nothing big will change there. And the new authors and their first 1star ratings? Do you guys really think they'll keep silent and agree with their first dislike? We'll still discuss dislike-bombs on all new releases while asking Tony to take care of it, new authors who get 2 or 3 dislikes will still feel like shit, the whole toxicity still stays in the system.


I mean, there are still arguments for both rating systems, although I would rather try and find a third option. If it's about the authors, even if you take away the dislike function completely, they'll still feel like shit when their work has 1/10th of the positive ratings compared with similar stories. So yeah, I won't take sides with any rating system, because I haven't found one I personally liked. But the starting post argument that a change would better the situation for both the authors and Tony... I can't see that at all...
While, the original post does talk about that, it more of an introduction to what he thinks was the issue. And the issue was, people don't really use the star rating to signify their judgement of quality of these stories. When people rate five stars, they don't mean that the story is of excellent quality, nor do one stars is because they think the story is horrible. It is because they like and dislike the story receptively.

So, the proposal is to use a system that reflects how the people actually do things.

It might be used as the new measure of quality (though, I don't think people actually believe the story ratings here is an actual measure of quality at all) at its basis it is not, unlike how star ratings propose itself to be. It is a ratio of likes and dislikes that speaks more about the readers reaction and not the quality of the story. You might use it (just like we use other metrics like how many favorites or reads the story have) but it is not in its very core. Not so with Ratings. It is supposed to be a measure of quality and you are supposed to take it as a measure of quality.

Another difference is that in like/dislike system the number of likes and dislike is important. It is not the ratio that you would most notice (just look Youtube for example where the ratio isn't actually represented by a number) but the number of likes or dislikes the story accumulated. With star ratings the number of ratings and how is it distributed is de-emphasized (invisible actually, unless you actually check it in the story's index page) and the average rating front and center with the eyecatching five star visual.

To me, that is big enough difference.
The binary system is not wholly terrible and likewise for the current one, it's just too minor of a change to get it adjusted. It wont do anything except make the people who want it happy. It's not worth the time, if you ask me.
It would improve a lot of things. And if you ask me, the improvements are worth the time.
 
Last edited:

Maple-Leaf

•Deceased
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
681
Points
108
While, the original post does talk about that, it more of an introduction to what he thinks was the issue. And the issue was, people don't really use the star rating to signify their judgement of quality of these stories. When people rate five stars, they don't mean that the story is of excellent quality, nor do one stars is because they think the story is horrible. It is because they like and dislike the story receptively.

So, the proposal is to use a system that reflects how the people actually do things.

It might be used as the new measure of quality (though, I don't think people actually believe the story ratings here is an actual measure of quality at all) at its basis it is not, unlike how star ratings propose itself to be. It is a ratio of likes and dislikes that speaks more about the readers reaction and not the quality of the story. You might use it (just like we use other metrics like how many favorites or reads the story have) but it is not in its very core. Not so with Ratings. It is supposed to be a measure of quality and you are supposed to take it as a measure of quality.

Another difference is that in like/dislike system the number of likes and dislike is important. It is not the ratio that you would most notice (just look Youtube for example where the ratio isn't actually represented by a number) but the number of likes or dislikes the story accumulated. With star ratings the number of ratings and how is it distributed is de-emphasized (invisible actually, unless you actually check it in the story's index page) and the average rating front and center with the eyecatching five star visual.

To me, that is big enough difference.
I suppose so, when talking about whether or not the reader likes the story, 1-5 stars does seem a little unfitting. Reviews is another thing entirely, but that is a good point. But even, so I don't see why changing it is necessary. While it is clearer to tell someone likes the story if they hit "like" it would be the same for "five stars". You just need to realize that if someone rates it five stars, they like it, and if they leave a five star review, they think the story itself is good and others will like it too. You can just clarify those differences and leave the system as is. Changing the system just so it's more intuitive at first glance, is a massive waste of time, when all you have to do is tell people the differences. It may be more convenient, but then it's just up to Tony whether he's willing to sacrifice time for a minor convenience. He may have more important things to do as well.
 

LostLibrarian

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
709
Points
133
It might be used as the new measure of quality (though, I don't think people actually believe the story ratings here is an actual measure of quality at all) at its basis it is not, unlike how star ratings propose itself to be. It is a ratio of likes and dislikes that speaks more about the readers reaction and not the quality of the story. You might use it (just like we use other metrics like how many favorites or reads the story have) but it is not in its very core. Not so with Ratings. It is supposed to be a measure of quality and you are supposed to take it as a measure of quality.
But here we arrive at the same discussion of "what it is meant to be" and "what people use it for". Yeah like/dislike isn't meant to be a quality sign, but it'll end up just like one. That's the whole "people don't use the system the way it is meant to be" argument from your first paragraph in the opposite way. If you have like/dislike instead of 5stars it'll for most users "replace the rating system" which makes it a metric of quality.

It won't be just "a user just disliked the story out of personal interest" but end up as "a user disliked the story because it was shit".

Another difference is that in like/dislike system the number of likes and dislike is important. It is not the ratio that you would most notice (just look Youtube for example where the ratio isn't actually represented by a number) but the number of likes or dislikes the story accumulated. With star ratings the number of ratings and how is it distributed is de-emphasized (invisible actually, unless you actually check it in the story's index page) and the average rating front and center with the eyecatching five star visual.
I mean youtube makes it even easier with the bar, so you can see whether a video is good or bad just by the size of the different colors. Look down in the comment of disliked videos and you find a hundred comments about "the size of the bar" in there.

So yeah, the ratio isn't expressed as a number, but people still know, that "any good video" should have at least ten times the likes (depending on the channel size even 100 times) the likes. Any video with both numbers in the same range is easily seen as bad quality. People will adapt and whether they see a rating as bad, the number of 1stars as bad, or the number of dislikes as bad won't change the issue at heart.

To me, that is big enough difference.
Again, I won't even start with that discussion, because I don't even see any solution that would work.

For something to work, it shouldn't be "either stars or likes" but a system, that can combine those points together. The problem is that trolls will stay trolls and people still will play the system if it has any meaning. My personal idea would go more in the way of make the overall rating only based on reviews and have the like/dislike for chapters. So more or less combine both systems. But then trolls/bots would just go and dislike every chapter and you have 50 dislikes instead of one 1star rating. Or you get "it's meh" 2* reviews just for the sake of it.


Imho if you want a "user enjoyment metric" you need to have it together with a "quality metric" to stand apart. So in that case, likes/dislikes would stand against the "chapter favorites" we have now, while ratings need their work to do. Making a "quality score" with 5stars based solely on the reviews might work and give reviews more weight. But while it makes it easier to see whether those low ratings have a reason, it'll also invite all the more toxicity, double accounts and whatnot.

So yeah, I can't see a system that works fine, because that would have to be a whole behemoth of a system that also have to work more or less automatic. So to me, we would just rename the problem. Likes/dislikes will become the "quality" metric, because there aren't any stars... and people will still act the same way anyway.

Same with your arguments. They are sound in their core, but people won't listen to "dislikes/likes" says nothing about quality. Just like they didn't listen "ratings aren't meant for your likes/dislikes". If we change the system, we'll have the same discussion the other way round. Because it's less of a problem solving discussion and more of a "opinion on how to name things" discussion...
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
I suppose so, when talking about whether or not the reader likes the story, 1-5 stars does seem a little unfitting. Reviews is another thing entirely, but that is a good point. But even, so I don't see why changing it is necessary. While it is clearer to tell someone likes the story if they hit "like" it would be the same for "five stars". You just need to realize that if someone rates it five stars, they like it, and if they leave a five star review, they think the story itself is good and others will like it too. You can just clarify those differences and leave the system as is. Changing the system just so it's more intuitive at first glance, is a massive waste of time, when all you have to do is tell people the differences. It may be more convenient, but then it's just up to Tony whether he's willing to sacrifice time for a minor convenience. He may have more important things to do as well.
Intuitiveness is important. It is a very important part of design. Don't just throw it away like that.

Though, this is for Tony to decide. If he doesn't change it, well, I don't think there would be any harm. I pretty much ignore the ratings in the first place. They are pretty much garbage to me.
But here we arrive at the same discussion of "what it is meant to be" and "what people use it for". Yeah like/dislike isn't meant to be a quality sign, but it'll end up just like one. That's the whole "people don't use the system the way it is meant to be" argument from your first paragraph in the opposite way. If you have like/dislike instead of 5stars it'll for most users "replace the rating system" which makes it a metric of quality.

It won't be just "a user just disliked the story out of personal interest" but end up as "a user disliked the story because it was shit".
The difference is like/dislike doesn't pretend to be one, unlike ratings. I also given you example about how people uses number of favorites and readers as an indication of quality (and there are actually sites where you can only decide based only on these metrics). They can be used but they, as well as like/dislike, might provide indications, and of course readers can use them to for that, but in their essence they don't measure quality . . . ratings however is supposed to measure quality, and fail at it.
I mean youtube makes it even easier with the bar, so you can see whether a video is good or bad just by the size of the different colors. Look down in the comment of disliked videos and you find a hundred comments about "the size of the bar" in there.

So yeah, the ratio isn't expressed as a number, but people still know, that "any good video" should have at least ten times the likes (depending on the channel size even 100 times) the likes. Any video with both numbers in the same range is easily seen as bad quality. People will adapt and whether they see a rating as bad, the number of 1stars as bad, or the number of dislikes as bad won't change the issue at heart.
I think you didn't get my point. You can if you look. I mean you can even look at how the ratings are distributed in SH, but my point is where the emphasis goes. You actually pointed out that the people has to look at the numbers and compare them. This the very same thing when you look at favorites or readers. You look at the numbers and do something with them to make your own judgement.

And also should mention that the ratio isn't the only thing that people would base it on but also the number of likes and dislikes. A video with almost the same ration of like and dislike but one has 100,000 like while the other only has 100, tells you something more that the ration indicates.

Ratings however gives you a single number like 4.7. What does that mean? Well, it supposed to mean that this story is of really really great quality.

See the difference on emphasis and how it affects how you perceive and do things?
Again, I won't even start with that discussion, because I don't even see any solution that would work.

For something to work, it shouldn't be "either stars or likes" but a system, that can combine those points together. The problem is that trolls will stay trolls and people still will play the system if it has any meaning. My personal idea would go more in the way of make the overall rating only based on reviews and have the like/dislike for chapters. So more or less combine both systems. But then trolls/bots would just go and dislike every chapter and you have 50 dislikes instead of one 1star rating. Or you get "it's meh" 2* reviews just for the sake of it.

Imho if you want a "user enjoyment metric" you need to have it together with a "quality metric" to stand apart. So in that case, likes/dislikes would stand against the "chapter favorites" we have now, while ratings need their work to do. Making a "quality score" with 5stars based solely on the reviews might work and give reviews more weight. But while it makes it easier to see whether those low ratings have a reason, it'll also invite all the more toxicity, double accounts and whatnot.

So yeah, I can't see a system that works fine, because that would have to be a whole behemoth of a system that also have to work more or less automatic. So to me, we would just rename the problem. Likes/dislikes will become the "quality" metric, because there aren't any stars... and people will still act the same way anyway.

Same with your arguments. They are sound in their core, but people won't listen to "dislikes/likes" says nothing about quality. Just like they didn't listen "ratings aren't meant for your likes/dislikes". If we change the system, we'll have the same discussion the other way round. Because it's less of a problem solving discussion and more of a "opinion on how to name things" discussion...
Well, the original poster, as I said before, doesn't really want to change the system because trolls are trolls but to reflect how people actually do things. This is what he thinks the main issue was. It is not so much as what works as to what fits better.

So what if they do use it? What is the problem there? If they use it as such, fine, but at least it doesn't pretend to be an actual measurement of quality like the rating does. No one could point at it that say it is erroneous because it is not measuring quality in the first place.

And user enjoyment metric? What garbage is that?

And it is not just naming. As I said before, like/dislike is not ratings with the middle options removed with like-5 star and dislike-1 star. It tells you a very different thing and ask something different from the readers. It presents its content in a very different way too. Just because they involve readers clicking on a number of selections to do their task doesn't mean they are the same with different names.

Though, if you still see all this differences as being cosmetic, i.e. just changing the names, well, agree to disagree.

And while I'm pretty much supportive in changing to a like/dislike system, if Tony decides to just keep the rating system, well, no problem. I pretty much adapted to the platform using my own techniques which amount to ignoring the ratings. I mean, I used fanfiction.net and fictionPress where rating and likes/dislikes (and review system) doesn't exist and I managed just fine, as well as other users apparently. If you want your fancy ratings, well, at least you could keep enjoying it.
 
Last edited:

Moonpearl

The Yuri Empress
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
764
Points
133
But almost everyone. Why must we cater to the minority?

And that is only a maybe. I don't think you even believe that.

Do you think you're a mind reader? I'm sensing that you have some trouble realising that not everyone thinks like you.

Personally, I don't waste my time reading anything that I don't think I'm going to love from the get-go. That really cuts down the number of novels that I rate lower than five stars, but it doesn't mean that the five star ratings I give out are undeserved. I can justify each and every one of them.

Also, that "minority" (assuming that they are a minority, which you don't actually have any proof of) are doing authors the massive favour of providing more nuanced feedback, so you'd be cutting off your nose to spite your face if you decided to get in their way.

What is nuanced about the star rating?

I really don't agree with this argument. In the first place not only do readers mostly rate 1 or 5 which obliterates this nuance you are talking of when only two factors weight so heavily but authors themselves ignore this "nuanced" ratings because they don't carry much impact. I mean, what will affect an author more "this horrible" "it is okay" "it is really great?" I bet "it is okay" is going to be invisible.

A four star rating typically means that the novel was greatly enjoyed, but that there were serious problems that the reader had to factor in when rating it.

Three stars indicates even larger problems.

Two stars means you're not totally shit, but you really weren't good.

The difference matters a lot. I do, in fact, pay attention to the message that people are trying to send me through ratings.

Uh . . . LOL. :ROFLMAO:

SH is like other writing sites. Specifically, it is like a discount version of RoyalRoad.

The star rating is a really popular tool. It is almost everywhere. I'm sure ScribbleHub included a star rating system here because it is popular.

SH is not unique at all. Not to mention, being unique or different doesn't mean good or better.

Actually, we have a different community. Take our thriving LGBT+ authorship, which the features of SH work to support, as opposed to a shithole like RR that's actively driving LGBT+ folk away.

I'm not saying that the star rating system is unique, I'm just saying that judging whether we should or shouldn't change things according to other, possibly shittier writing sites is not always the way forward.

And, people aren't really good at judging quality. Let them compare a classic art (say The Nigh Watch) and a generic scantily clad waifu girl and they will rate waifu as above the classic.

Just because something's a classic, doesn't mean that it's good or that it doesn't have major problems with the writing. I spent whole literature classes ripping the shit out of Sir Philip Sidney with other academics.

Once upon a time, those "classics" were probably your generic scantily clad waifu novel of their time, and it shows.

So, the proposal is to use a system that reflects how the people actually do things.

It might be used as the new measure of quality (though, I don't think people actually believe the story ratings here is an actual measure of quality at all) at its basis it is not, unlike how star ratings propose itself to be. It is a ratio of likes and dislikes that speaks more about the readers reaction and not the quality of the story. You might use it (just like we use other metrics like how many favorites or reads the story have) but it is not in its very core. Not so with Ratings. It is supposed to be a measure of quality and you are supposed to take it as a measure of quality.

Again, you're just assuming that people are mindlessly rating things without considering the quality, but that's a projection of your beliefs onto them.

In most cases, "I like this" and "I don't like this" are genuine parts of the quality judging process, and there's nothing wrong with that.
If someone likes something a lot, then they can probably list of a whole encyclopedia of reasons that it's good and that's their reason for their rating. If they hate it, they can damn well tell you why.

Nobody's sitting around going, "This is well written and has 0 problems, but I hate it with my whole soul! 1 star!"
Because that makes absolutely no sense. People do not work that way.
 

LostLibrarian

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
709
Points
133
Ratings however gives you a single number like 4.7. What does that mean? Well, it supposed to mean that this story is of really really great quality.
Ratings gives you also the total number of ratings and the numbers for each star value. So it's the same again. If you want to argue with "users can compare numbers" they can also do that. If you see a 3 star rating with one 1star and 1five star it's also different compared to a 3star rating with 100 3 stars. So you also get those same total numbers in comparison just like with likes/dislikes.

The main difference is what you name the things ("1 stars" or "dislikes"), what you say it is meant for, and how you display is. But the overall information isn't less with ratings, it's just displayed different. So yeah, we still end up with a matter of opinion on which display is better and what "pretending" is better, as both systems will always end up being played in the same way and being used in the same way... no matter whether the core idea behind it is different or not.

If you like the like/dislike system more, that's great. I have nothing against that system, because I don't care about the type of rating system. But I argued against the switch changing the overall situation or problems or one system giving more or less information than the other. It's a matter of focus and opinion and that's fine. But it shouldn't be discussed as if one system is objectively better than the other...

And user enjoyment metric? What garbage is that?
Your standard dis/like-system which is only based on whether a user enjoyed the content or not...
So yeah... that might be garbage :blob_whistle:

But in all seriousness... as I said, I have no horse in this race and I'm no fan of most of these systems. So we don't have to turn in circles for forever.
But we can agree on your last point: there are things that are good here and things that aren't as good. And as users we just find ways to live with that. Whether that thing is called X or Y...

And that's it from me... I have to edit my story or my readers will lynch me :blob_ghost:
 
Last edited:

Discount_Blade

Sent Here To Piss You All Off
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Messages
1,347
Points
153
That just makes it easier for people to just dislike the thing. 2, 3, 4 stars allow people to articulate themselves in a more concise manner and get pinpoint in how they gauge a work's quality. Turning it into a binary system doesn't make anything better; now people can only give a major approval or a major dislike without anything in between.

It doesn't help anything. Just makes the rating system more shallow than it already is. Now it's harder to discern between an actual dislike or a genuine troll. And don't give me that "legitimate review or troll" crap either. If you're gonna do it with the dislikes you gotta do it with the likes too.
I already complained about this. Everyone bitches and moans about the "woe is me I didn't deserve that one"....I'm pretty sure you didn't deserve that 5 you so desperately want either.

I don't know how Tony judges the rating to be trolled or not, but if he did it based on the complaint thread and not because he knew some bots from the same IP were 1-staring everything, then I'll judge him for falsifying the rating.

At least the star rating still presents some choices for those who will use the nuanced part. We can combine it into something like steam rating, which imo better than just separated like and dislike.

Now it's time to complain and generally call people out. I don't get how people "know" someone is "trolling" them with a one-star rating (or two, because my work is so perfect and it can never get anything lower than three [three and four will be next, won't it]). Like, are you that egoistic, or that fragile? If it's the bot army, then tony would have gone to delete it by himself. If it's just one person who rated a lot of the story they read low, then maybe that person's standard is higher than yours?

Simply, there is no way to prove that the "trolls" are trolls who deliberately rate your story low because of his amusement or some unknown agenda. Either you have to be so egoistic (my work is perfect), or mentally fragile (why even post your story anyway?), or shameless to flame them without any evidence in the SHF where you can tell your side of the story and have others consulting you and insulting the unsuspecting person who might or might not be a troll.

If you have any concrete evidence, such as an objectively false review or clear intention to troll, then all is well, but most of what I saw wasn't even close to reasonable doubt.

Gods man this!!! Whenever I see a new post with someone bitching and moaning about "trolls gave me a 1-star" I cringe and roll my eyes. It's like a fucking daycare center in here at times but without any legitimate counselors.

Like I said, everyone bitches and moans about the "woe is me I didn't deserve that 1-star"....I'm pretty sure you didn't deserve that 5-star you so desperately want either dude.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
Do you think you're a mind reader? I'm sensing that you have some trouble realising that not everyone thinks like you.

Personally, I don't waste my time reading anything that I don't think I'm going to love from the get-go. That really cuts down the number of novels that I rate lower than five stars, but it doesn't mean that the five star ratings I give out are undeserved. I can justify each and every one of them.

Also, that "minority" (assuming that they are a minority, which you don't actually have any proof of) are doing authors the massive favour of providing more nuanced feedback, so you'd be cutting off your nose to spite your face if you decided to get in their way.
I'm not, but I can read the reviews and I can see the ratings. It is pretty much clear what most people do. I mean, anyone can see that.

And the minority are those that gives ratings 2, 3 or 4 and I might also include 1, with the majority rating 5. And if you want nuanced feedback, then there is the review. Ratings doesn't provide any nuanced feedback at all.
A four star rating typically means that the novel was greatly enjoyed, but that there were serious problems that the reader had to factor in when rating it.

Three stars indicates even larger problems.

Two stars means you're not totally shit, but you really weren't good.

The difference matters a lot. I do, in fact, pay attention to the message that people are trying to send me through ratings.
And what you ignore the majority that says 5 stars? I mean, they are also the message that people are trying to send to you through ratings.

And what is nuanced with those? No details at all as to what the problems are. And considering that 5 stars pretty much outnumbers the rest combined.
Actually, we have a different community. Take our thriving LGBT+ authorship, which the features of SH work to support, as opposed to a shithole like RR that's actively driving LGBT+ folk away.

I'm not saying that the star rating system is unique, I'm just saying that judging whether we should or shouldn't change things according to other, possibly shittier writing sites is not always the way forward.
Are we actually talking about community? When? Moving the goalpost much?

And so we copy sites like RoyalRoad (and Webnovel and Wattpad) because apparently it is the way forward? Genius! You just proven how good SH for being different and unique!
Just because something's a classic, doesn't mean that it's good or that it doesn't have major problems with the writing. I spent whole literature classes ripping the shit out of Sir Philip Sidney with other academics.

Once upon a time, those "classics" were probably your generic scantily clad waifu novel of their time, and it shows.
See what I tell you when people aren't good at judging quality?
Again, you're just assuming that people are mindlessly rating things without considering the quality, but that's a projection of your beliefs onto them.

In most cases, "I like this" and "I don't like this" are genuine parts of the quality judging process, and there's nothing wrong with that.
If someone likes something a lot, then they can probably list of a whole encyclopedia of reasons that it's good and that's their reason for their rating. If they hate it, they can damn well tell you why.

Nobody's sitting around going, "This is well written and has 0 problems, but I hate it with my whole soul! 1 star!"
Because that makes absolutely no sense. People do not work that way.
I didn't, I looked and read. Of course not all of them but you seem to ignore nuances.

And see what I mean when I said that people aren't judging quality? Liking or disliking something have very little to do with quality (there are things like preferences at work). And when you based the quality of work solely on that . . .

And while no one bitches like that, that doesn't mean people don't rate good stories one star. To prove that, you only have to look. Every story have people rating one star. So, all this stories are terrible? None of them good? If not, then why they give one star? At least you are not the only one who could use appeal to ridicule as an argument. I can too.
Ratings gives you also the total number of ratings and the numbers for each star value. So it's the same again. If you want to argue with "users can compare numbers" they can also do that. If you see a 3 star rating with one 1star and 1five star it's also different compared to a 3star rating with 100 3 stars. So you also get those same total numbers in comparison just like with likes/dislikes.

The main difference is what you name the things ("1 stars" or "dislikes"), what you say it is meant for, and how you display is. But the overall information isn't less with ratings, it's just displayed different. So yeah, we still end up with a matter of opinion on which display is better and what "pretending" is better, as both systems will always end up being played in the same way and being used in the same way... no matter whether the core idea behind it is different or not.

If you like the like/dislike system more, that's great. I have nothing against that system, because I don't care about the type of rating system. But I argued against the switch changing the overall situation or problems or one system giving more or less information than the other. It's a matter of focus and opinion and that's fine. But it shouldn't be discussed as if one system is objectively better than the other...
Uh! I already explained this in detail. I missed stuff, go back and read again.

And what is better about a system (ratings) that doesn't work at its job at all?
Your standard dis/like-system which is only based on whether a user enjoyed the content or not...
So yeah... that might be garbage :blob_whistle:
LOL. But like/dislike doesn't say much about user enjoyment nor is it a metric of their enjoyment and it doesn't measure it.

On the other hand, you people keep saying that like/dislike is just ratings in a different name. Now are calling ratings kinda garbage too? I mean, you said they are the same.
But in all seriousness... as I said, I have no horse in this race and I'm no fan of most of these systems. So we don't have to turn in circles for forever.
But we can agree on your last point: there are things that are good here and things that aren't as good. And as users we just find ways to live with that. Whether that thing is called X or Y...

And that's it from me... I have to edit my story or my readers will lynch me :blob_ghost:
Yeah. We just use this platform and take what we want and can use and pretty much ignore everything else. I pretty much find the rating system garbage and I don't want to flood the platform with authors crying foul (or actually crying) by rating a lot of stories 1 or 2 stars. I pretty much pretend the ratings doesn't exist.
 
Last edited:

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
To me, it just seems like everyone's trying to prove their the bigger victim. LGBTQ people, people whining about trolls, people complaining about this, complaining about that.... it's pitiful really.
Playing the victim card. Nothing unusual with these people.
 

Moonpearl

The Yuri Empress
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
764
Points
133
Oh, never mind. I'm arguing with incels, apparently. Well, I've got rules against doing that - you guys can circle jerk yourselves to sleep without me.
 

Maple-Leaf

•Deceased
Joined
Jun 4, 2020
Messages
681
Points
108
I really don't understand why this discussion exists. People are only picking two of the star choices? Then pretend like their likes and dislikes for fucks sake. Five stars and one stars are disingenuous? Yeah, so are literally any other review out there. Anyone could be lying about how they feel about something whether they gave it three stars, two stars or a hundred stars. Whether you want to take them seriously is a decision you need to make on your own. Maybe I've just been skimming through the arguments, but I don't see the difference in a binary system and the current one. People will still get "dislike bombed" no matter what the system is. And people will still complain about perfectly reasonable ratings because they don't like them.

I think I missed something because I'm totally confused right now. Wouldn't the system be flawed no matter what it is? Why does it need to be changed? Unless you can come up with a full proof solution, right here and right now, it's not going to change.
I don't understand what's being discussed, can someone explain please?
 

Moonpearl

The Yuri Empress
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
764
Points
133
I really don't understand why this discussion exists. People are only picking two of the star choices? Then pretend like their likes and dislikes for fucks sake. Five stars and one stars are disingenuous? Yeah, so are literally any other review out there. Anyone could be lying about how they feel about something whether they gave it three stars, two stars or a hundred stars. Whether you want to take them seriously is a decision you need to make on your own. Maybe I've just been skimming through the arguments, but I don't see the difference in a binary system and the current one. People will still get "dislike bombed" no matter what the system is. And people will still complain about perfectly reasonable ratings because they don't like them.

I think I missed something because I'm totally confused right now. Wouldn't the system be flawed no matter what it is? Why does it need to be changed? Unless you can come up with a full proof solution, right here and right now, it's not going to change.
I don't understand what's being discussed, can someone explain please?

The logic is flawed, that's why.
 

Discount_Blade

Sent Here To Piss You All Off
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Messages
1,347
Points
153
Oh, never mind. I'm arguing with incels, apparently. Well, I've got rules against doing that - you guys can circle jerk yourselves to sleep without me.
Lol incels? XDDD Its funny that's your response. You didn't even use the word correctly either. Pathetic. I was attempting to debate with a petty child throwing a tantrum because her opinions weren't accepted.
 

Discount_Blade

Sent Here To Piss You All Off
Joined
Jul 2, 2019
Messages
1,347
Points
153
I really don't understand why this discussion exists. People are only picking two of the star choices? Then pretend like their likes and dislikes for fucks sake. Five stars and one stars are disingenuous? Yeah, so are literally any other review out there. Anyone could be lying about how they feel about something whether they gave it three stars, two stars or a hundred stars. Whether you want to take them seriously is a decision you need to make on your own. Maybe I've just been skimming through the arguments, but I don't see the difference in a binary system and the current one. People will still get "dislike bombed" no matter what the system is. And people will still complain about perfectly reasonable ratings because they don't like them.

I think I missed something because I'm totally confused right now. Wouldn't the system be flawed no matter what it is? Why does it need to be changed? Unless you can come up with a full proof solution, right here and right now, it's not going to change.
I don't understand what's being discussed, can someone explain please?
I wasn't complaining about the system. I was talking about the people crying about getting 1 stars and immediately calling it trolling. Seems like they just want 5's only.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top