Deeprotsorcerer
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I feel like I missed a season of an anime, like I'm a late game character shoved in to fill a gap in the plot.
Decline in moral standards in web novels
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SailusGebel
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I'm not that old, LOL, old man. Okay, a slightly more serious answer would be, I don't remember the nicknames. There were some activist people. How are they called, I don't know, woke? Those types of people, they were here, and blade would talk to them in his own charming manner. But there is none left. They all left, and the ones that appear every now and again go away because there is a lack of response.
Good thing that I don't like a single soul here.
SilvCrimBlac
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Lol. Moonpearl was a cunt at best, and something far worse on the norm. I wasn't even the one arguing with her and she rubbed me the wrong way.
Awww. My feelings </3
Daitengu
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Art reflects society. The Chinese people have been under the control of a corrupt regime for nearly a century now. When everyone in power is corrupt, can you really blame people for having it influence everything in their lives?
Then we got loose control capitalism that rewards sociopaths and psychopaths. Causing most high value corporations to be run by people who don't mind slave and child labor or running people into suicide to make as much money as all their employees combined.
We also got a bought media and gov leaders in the US, Canada, and the UK.
When you got people that can't trust their government or employers to have anything but their own wallets as an interest you're going to have a ton of people have the equivalent of a temper tantrum in their stories and art.
Lloyd
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How dare you insult the honor chairman Xi!
ABCGUY
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Mao isnt pleased
owotrucked
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Here's my 2 cents about the topic:
Moral really adds depths to stories because it's a logical extension of emotions as opposed to pure rationality (and a story is supposed to raise emotions). The feelings of justice and injustice are social animal instincts (there's an experiment about rewarding monkeys unequally for the same task). Since emotions are personal, moral is subjective.
For instance, if you have to sacrifice a life for another, how do you weight the values? Is there a purely rationale reason for saving a trout over a salmon? There's no real answer, but only pretexts that are guided by feelings. For most people, a human life is more valuable than any other animals because they are emotionally involved (empathizing with the life at risk).
That said, as we move through time, society truly seem to yeet out moral.
Originally, civilization exchanged goods and service through credit and trust between people who know each others. Then, the advent of market created an impersonal place where maximizing profit and purely pursuing material goods were the only things that mattered. Religion grew as a counter movement to remind humanity that material goods weren't the only things important. It aimed to create a long term environment of peace, but economy and human greed kept growing in power without the world taking any good turn. With the progress of science and the hypocrisy of corrupted of religious institutions, their messages lost credibility.
After destroying everything left of religion and morality, we've reached a point where the profits of company's owners matter more than human life. This systemic moral bankruptcy seeps into the individuals, especially in China. The world hurts you, so you hurt back the world. This is the level of personal morality and justice they're grasping onto.
Looking at the food-processing industry across the world gives a grim outlook on the state of morality in this world. In Europe, companies sue organizations that disclose the carcinogenic components in their products because 'it hurts their profit, and the ingredients don't even kill that many people per year.' (not making that up, it was the CEO's lines during an interview lol) In the United States, simply looking at Monsanto is enough. And in China, baby milk is tainted, your food is dyed with toxic chemicals, meat blended with cardboard, cooked in gutter oil, grown with lean meat powder, and injected with water to increase its weight.
When you think about it, the global market has become like a giant anonymous place. Left alone, the concern for maximizing profits leads to horrible things: counterfeit products, long-term health hazards, and planned obsolescence.
What do emotions tell us about waste? About all the food and products destroyed purely for the sake of driving the price up? Imagine all the misallocated resources that were diverted from humanity to create and destroy those things.
The government sometimes beat the companies into the lines. But more often than not, it yield to the power of money.
This immorality for the sake of profit pervades into every levels of society. Because it will do its absolute utmost to turn people into the cogs of the market to enrich handful people. The inflationist money policy and the education of children (things such as student loans) are good tools to bind the oblivious citizens to awful jobs for the sake of sustenance. Inflation will devalue savings while incentivizes people to work new current jobs with updated wages. Student debts and mortgage that appear almost like necessary steps of life will crush people into jobs as they have to pay back their loans.
According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, people seek: physiological goals (food, wate, sleep), safety goals (home, security, stability), belonging and love, self-esteem (achievement, status), and self-actualization (giving to the world the maximum value in a personal way). People aren't blank slate. They come with their own set of strengths, weaknesses, and values. And self-actualization requires individuals to have a rich inner understanding of their own self (to trust themselves, to follow through their mission, and to know their pitfalls). But rather than nurturing people's strengths to bring the best to the world, society would stiffle their potential to add them to their pool of desperate job seekers (through the means of the previous paragraph) and keep them worrying about food and home.
A company's goal is to extract maximum value from their employees. As a result, they must pay as little as possible. It means that they need a large enough pool of job seekers that are desperate enough to work for them for little wage.
Once again, stealing from the greater good to enrich the pocket of a fews. Those entities grow powerful enough to fund political figures, who then have to fulfill their part of the deal by selling their own country and people.
In conclusion, if anyone has the vague impression that moral has left the chat, you're not the only one.
On that note, I recommend the game Library of Ruina which is a story set in a dystopia where humanity has exhausted all the energy resources of the world, but have harnessed supernatural singularities to thrive. One of the theme is about living in a shitty immoral world, and coping with the feeling of absolute helplessness in face of society.
Moral really adds depths to stories because it's a logical extension of emotions as opposed to pure rationality (and a story is supposed to raise emotions). The feelings of justice and injustice are social animal instincts (there's an experiment about rewarding monkeys unequally for the same task). Since emotions are personal, moral is subjective.
For instance, if you have to sacrifice a life for another, how do you weight the values? Is there a purely rationale reason for saving a trout over a salmon? There's no real answer, but only pretexts that are guided by feelings. For most people, a human life is more valuable than any other animals because they are emotionally involved (empathizing with the life at risk).
That said, as we move through time, society truly seem to yeet out moral.
Originally, civilization exchanged goods and service through credit and trust between people who know each others. Then, the advent of market created an impersonal place where maximizing profit and purely pursuing material goods were the only things that mattered. Religion grew as a counter movement to remind humanity that material goods weren't the only things important. It aimed to create a long term environment of peace, but economy and human greed kept growing in power without the world taking any good turn. With the progress of science and the hypocrisy of corrupted of religious institutions, their messages lost credibility.
After destroying everything left of religion and morality, we've reached a point where the profits of company's owners matter more than human life. This systemic moral bankruptcy seeps into the individuals, especially in China. The world hurts you, so you hurt back the world. This is the level of personal morality and justice they're grasping onto.
Looking at the food-processing industry across the world gives a grim outlook on the state of morality in this world. In Europe, companies sue organizations that disclose the carcinogenic components in their products because 'it hurts their profit, and the ingredients don't even kill that many people per year.' (not making that up, it was the CEO's lines during an interview lol) In the United States, simply looking at Monsanto is enough. And in China, baby milk is tainted, your food is dyed with toxic chemicals, meat blended with cardboard, cooked in gutter oil, grown with lean meat powder, and injected with water to increase its weight.
When you think about it, the global market has become like a giant anonymous place. Left alone, the concern for maximizing profits leads to horrible things: counterfeit products, long-term health hazards, and planned obsolescence.
What do emotions tell us about waste? About all the food and products destroyed purely for the sake of driving the price up? Imagine all the misallocated resources that were diverted from humanity to create and destroy those things.
The government sometimes beat the companies into the lines. But more often than not, it yield to the power of money.
This immorality for the sake of profit pervades into every levels of society. Because it will do its absolute utmost to turn people into the cogs of the market to enrich handful people. The inflationist money policy and the education of children (things such as student loans) are good tools to bind the oblivious citizens to awful jobs for the sake of sustenance. Inflation will devalue savings while incentivizes people to work new current jobs with updated wages. Student debts and mortgage that appear almost like necessary steps of life will crush people into jobs as they have to pay back their loans.
According to Maslow's hierarchy of needs, people seek: physiological goals (food, wate, sleep), safety goals (home, security, stability), belonging and love, self-esteem (achievement, status), and self-actualization (giving to the world the maximum value in a personal way). People aren't blank slate. They come with their own set of strengths, weaknesses, and values. And self-actualization requires individuals to have a rich inner understanding of their own self (to trust themselves, to follow through their mission, and to know their pitfalls). But rather than nurturing people's strengths to bring the best to the world, society would stiffle their potential to add them to their pool of desperate job seekers (through the means of the previous paragraph) and keep them worrying about food and home.
A company's goal is to extract maximum value from their employees. As a result, they must pay as little as possible. It means that they need a large enough pool of job seekers that are desperate enough to work for them for little wage.
Once again, stealing from the greater good to enrich the pocket of a fews. Those entities grow powerful enough to fund political figures, who then have to fulfill their part of the deal by selling their own country and people.
In conclusion, if anyone has the vague impression that moral has left the chat, you're not the only one.
On that note, I recommend the game Library of Ruina which is a story set in a dystopia where humanity has exhausted all the energy resources of the world, but have harnessed supernatural singularities to thrive. One of the theme is about living in a shitty immoral world, and coping with the feeling of absolute helplessness in face of society.
NotaNuffian
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Whelp, this thread has managed to split both ways (as usual) with one side side still on track while the other one fo gossip town. Btw, I never knew that Blade got rearended constantly by Tony the one above all, I just thought that he either got shanked by RL in the alley way and left bleeding out like most of the gone members or at least find better things to do than haunting the chats with his presense.
I also never knew about woke people in chat here, thank the pasta god.
So anyway, what OP said about moral in novels, from past trend to current times, as well as the fruitful replies, not going to lie but if you look from the animes of the olden days like Inuyasha (possibly talking about acceptance, a sense of mission and saving the world that is neither good or bad), Naruto (season one, the only sort of good season that talks about hardwork) and Law of Ueki (Boys be JUSTICE is my only takeaway, thank you Mr Kobayashi) to the current Mushoku Tensei (that explores redemption of the man who refused to get up once fallen and maybe how fucked up Japan is), xianxia (taking wuxia so up far in the ass, it is wish fulfilment on coke and most people are HAM) and Smartphone (wish fulfilment of Japanese, which is fine I guess).
The thing is, all of these works provide escapism from the dull, mundane and possibly monochrome real life. You can only fantasize about saving the world while still being just a nobody like Power Rangers, Sailor Moon and Kamen Rider whereas in real life, all you are needed for is by your superior; ie your parents, your teachers and your bosses.
As for morals, you can obviously see the trend from the goody men (I mean, if you are a kid back then, the media you watched were supposed to impart good values like friendship, loyalty, being obedient to the state. I binged Crayon Shinchan, so fuck me) to emo teen phase as the hormones kick in to legally adult (legal to go die for your country) where you see the world in a spectrum from white to black.
Rather than a declining moral values, it is more on shifting moral values with emphasizing on which values that hold the most importance to us the ones who consume media.
For instance, I value familial relations blindly, so I can omit myself to whatever atrocities commited by my blood. This value is specifically sift from the dozens like honor, precious of life and kindness. Not because it is the correct one, but like the Amigara Fault, it fits me.
I also never knew about woke people in chat here, thank the pasta god.
So anyway, what OP said about moral in novels, from past trend to current times, as well as the fruitful replies, not going to lie but if you look from the animes of the olden days like Inuyasha (possibly talking about acceptance, a sense of mission and saving the world that is neither good or bad), Naruto (season one, the only sort of good season that talks about hardwork) and Law of Ueki (Boys be JUSTICE is my only takeaway, thank you Mr Kobayashi) to the current Mushoku Tensei (that explores redemption of the man who refused to get up once fallen and maybe how fucked up Japan is), xianxia (taking wuxia so up far in the ass, it is wish fulfilment on coke and most people are HAM) and Smartphone (wish fulfilment of Japanese, which is fine I guess).
The thing is, all of these works provide escapism from the dull, mundane and possibly monochrome real life. You can only fantasize about saving the world while still being just a nobody like Power Rangers, Sailor Moon and Kamen Rider whereas in real life, all you are needed for is by your superior; ie your parents, your teachers and your bosses.
As for morals, you can obviously see the trend from the goody men (I mean, if you are a kid back then, the media you watched were supposed to impart good values like friendship, loyalty, being obedient to the state. I binged Crayon Shinchan, so fuck me) to emo teen phase as the hormones kick in to legally adult (legal to go die for your country) where you see the world in a spectrum from white to black.
Rather than a declining moral values, it is more on shifting moral values with emphasizing on which values that hold the most importance to us the ones who consume media.
For instance, I value familial relations blindly, so I can omit myself to whatever atrocities commited by my blood. This value is specifically sift from the dozens like honor, precious of life and kindness. Not because it is the correct one, but like the Amigara Fault, it fits me.
I find this explanation to be a VERY simple.
Most web novels today are written in a ‘video game’ style. They are high on action and low on emotions to keep the readers attention.
The incentive for this is that there are literally thousands of other options for the reader to choose from, so authors want to start with a ‘bang’. When the author is rewarded with money/views, the will naturally continue to write their GTA-edition fantasy story.
There are still print-quality web novels, but the ones that thrive are usually swallow. This isn’t to insult people who like the cut throat MC’s, a lot of readers would be playing games in they weren’t reading.
Most web novels today are written in a ‘video game’ style. They are high on action and low on emotions to keep the readers attention.
The incentive for this is that there are literally thousands of other options for the reader to choose from, so authors want to start with a ‘bang’. When the author is rewarded with money/views, the will naturally continue to write their GTA-edition fantasy story.
There are still print-quality web novels, but the ones that thrive are usually swallow. This isn’t to insult people who like the cut throat MC’s, a lot of readers would be playing games in they weren’t reading.
D
Deleted member 54065
Guest
A lot has been spoken about this stuff, and also a lot of derailment, but here's what I'll say...
Most of the authors can still distinguish fiction from reality.
Most of the authors can still distinguish fiction from reality.
A perfect example of this is how some aborigine tribes would cannibalized their victims to 'honor' them, while in a 'civilized' society it is looked upon with horror and disdain.
owotrucked
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I think morals is a component of decision making by being emotionally aware of the circumstance and the consequences that it brings in the long term (scaling up one's action).
---
1. Moral decline as in total absence of introspection
It is perfectly possible to act without assessing that dimension. In that case, it's justified to call it a decline.
Basically, the author just need to expose the MC's feeling process.
If your MC kills a villain, the author has to weight what murder entail with why the MC values it above all punishment and vendetta it might trigger. MC could even be forced to murder more further down the line and need an answer for his actions.
For sexuality, it would be feeling how the MC would react if the rest of the world (family, parents, sons, daughters) do the same.
Author can purposefully create a piece of shit character as long as it conveyed that it's okay to hate that character.
(To echo OP's part about rape: unless the character wants to live in a world where he can be raped or have his wife, mother, sisters, and daughters be raped, the natural moral assessment would be to not commit rape. If the character commits a rape without adressing this issue, it's automatically a moral decline instead of a moral shift.)
---
2. Moral decline as unrealistic solution or leading the world in dumber directions
If the author fully expose the characters morals, the reader's own sense of morals and life experience can still clash with the author's.
In that case, nobody can really assess if it's a decline. So you're right, nobody can be sure.
There are some stuffs we know for sure that didn't better the world though. So far, genocide and terrorism has yet to give any good result but people are still trying lol
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NotaNuffian
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This is my bias speaking but I think the OP is just going through the phase that faces us all, except it is just in novel forms.
As a youth and lacking internet access, the works provided are PG and family friendly with "moral of the story" being the crux. The work is there to enjoy and provide some level of education for OP's young mind, that doesn't mean that fucked up shits did not exist, they are just at the top shelves where OP can't reach.
Then when he gets older, the media he exposed has changed as well, becoming more NC-17 with topics like rape, betrayal and maybe murder (can't really help on that as I have been murdering terrorists in miniclip, so I am ok with murder). It is this shift of genre exposed that made the OP uncomfortable enough to start posting, kind of like having your first pubic hair.
It is like the comic industry in the early days, where Superman is shown as the boy scout he is because many need the hope he brings in the Great Depression. Of course then the age rating comes along as people understand that comics can show their fucked up side (for me it is Crimson Comics, so much lightning). Which makes me think that morality isn't declining, it is either never there or just used as a convenient tool like a shovel.
Now go and be a good worker bee, Steeve.
As a youth and lacking internet access, the works provided are PG and family friendly with "moral of the story" being the crux. The work is there to enjoy and provide some level of education for OP's young mind, that doesn't mean that fucked up shits did not exist, they are just at the top shelves where OP can't reach.
Then when he gets older, the media he exposed has changed as well, becoming more NC-17 with topics like rape, betrayal and maybe murder (can't really help on that as I have been murdering terrorists in miniclip, so I am ok with murder). It is this shift of genre exposed that made the OP uncomfortable enough to start posting, kind of like having your first pubic hair.
It is like the comic industry in the early days, where Superman is shown as the boy scout he is because many need the hope he brings in the Great Depression. Of course then the age rating comes along as people understand that comics can show their fucked up side (for me it is Crimson Comics, so much lightning). Which makes me think that morality isn't declining, it is either never there or just used as a convenient tool like a shovel.
Now go and be a good worker bee, Steeve.
MorgueAnna
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Excellent video to share.
A small tidbit I would like to contribute: for people who are unable to separate ficiton from reality in a healthy manner, it seems the actions of characters as a moral judgement on people who might enjoy those stories. I see this with younger audiences or more sheltered folks.
I don't read stories with cruel protagonists, generally, so I may be out of my depth, but there's a reason why The Count of Monte Cristo and other revenge tales are popular. As well as some anti-heroesnl and villainous characters who are relatable. Many people can empathize with a character who is pushed to their breaking point and beyond. So they might get some catharsis from seeing that okay out in fiction. But most people who enjoy those stories probably wouldn't re-enact them in reality and if they did, one would have to call into question how well they grasp reality and the consequences of their actions and take appropriate measures to protect that person (and others) from their delusion.
There are also many stories with characters put into terrible situations but are generally morally upstanding (to various cultural standards) and the struggle overcome their situation while remaining true to their code is usually quite riveting fiction. But goodness knows I'd hate to go through that myself or judge someone else for lapses made under pressure.
Then again there are some cruel figures in fiction who might be raised on a pedestal by some readers. It's not for me. Personally, I can't condemn people for enjoying things I don't (unless it's actively harming others in reality) so I accept that I am not the target audience and move on to find something I might actually enjoy.
I hope OP can find some peace and let go of the urge to judge "degenerate" fiction. This is how censorship happens and censorship isn't great.
EternalSunset0
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I'm just here to read the comments and especially the gossip and drama. Much has been said already, and I did enjoy seeing people's perspectives.
As for the woke/activist/whatnot mentioned somewhere, I do remember a series of drama threads like half a year ago because someone wanted to write loli romance and consulted the forum. I think it was two threads or so. And all the horsemen were there along with the super mad commenter.
As for the woke/activist/whatnot mentioned somewhere, I do remember a series of drama threads like half a year ago because someone wanted to write loli romance and consulted the forum. I think it was two threads or so. And all the horsemen were there along with the super mad commenter.
NotaNuffian
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Yes Lolita No Touch!
Yes loli. No touch.
I'm sorry to ask this question, it's probably written somewhere on the internet or even this forum but I can't find it. Where does "Yes loli No touch"...
forum.novelupdates.com
