Does gender bender tag apply to this

Aoibh

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Tbf, a large part of Gender Fuck or Gender Bender were by crossdressers making a political statement. Eliminating Crossdressing from the equation is like removing mythology from the definition of fantasy. Sure, there are a few valid arguments for it, but it feels ungrateful.

Whether it's sexless or genderless, it's still gender bender. Unless you mean sexless like, not having sex. In which case yeah, that would be celibacy, not gender bender.
Someone being genderless would fall into the non-binary and would be permitted the transgender sub tag whilst going to sexless would be just GB, whilst most trans GB does use the GB tag not based on gender changing but on the sex instead, since there isnt a tag for that side of thing GB has become the most common term to use for such thing to be searchable on such transformative plot or change, before you say that there is a trans tag, there is, but not all trans stories talk about magical/sci-fi/isekai physical change which would be normally labelled as GB whilst the crossdressing aspect can be simply moved to crossdressing if one dresses and acts as the opposite gender of the binary.

Maybe I should ask Tony if he could add like a specific sub tag for such type of change and we could leave GB out of the main tag, since we are in two halves about it, maybe TSF but it can be seen as derogatory but so can GB but at least it would be clear on what the genre would be about and easly searchable, even tho most of the GB on here is more based on physically change anyways.

Now I’m thinking this all over, the GB genre just confuses everything.


Oh and we are talking about GB as genre and not a statment or an act of protest.
Tbf, a large part of Gender Fuck or Gender Bender were by crossdressers making a political statement
 
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Cipiteca396

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Someone being genderless would fall into the non-binary and would be permitted the transgender sub tag whilst going to sexless would be just GB, whilst most trans GB does use the GB tag not based on gender changing but on the sex instead, since there isnt a tag for that side of thing GB has become the most common term to use for such thing to be searchable on such transformative plot or change, before you say that there is a trans tag, there is, but not all trans stories talk about magical/sci-fi/isekai physical change which would be normally labelled as GB whilst the crossdressing aspect can be simply moved to crossdressing if one dresses and acts as the opposite gender of the binary
Woah, use a period or seven. It's really hard to understand you.

Gender Bender is a genre, which can use minor tags like 'Crossdressing', 'MTF', 'FTM', 'Transgender', etc. to help people understand the exact contents. Rather than a whole new genre, some extra tags for non-binary and anything else that's missing would be a better investment.
 

Aoibh

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Gender Bender is a genre, which can use minor tags like 'Crossdressing', 'MTF', 'FTM', 'Transgender', etc. to help people understand the exact contents. Rather than a whole new genre, some extra tags for non-binary and anything else that's missing would be a better investment.
In this instance I think Transgender should be considered the main genre than the sub genre where GB should be the sub genre, so there isn't mixed messages with lumping it together with crossdressing.


Woah, use a period or seven. It's really hard to understand you.
I don't like full stops :blob_catflip:
 

Ddraig

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Woah, use a period or seven. It's really hard to understand you.

Gender Bender is a genre, which can use minor tags like 'Crossdressing', 'MTF', 'FTM', 'Transgender', etc. to help people understand the exact contents. Rather than a whole new genre, some extra tags for non-binary and anything else that's missing would be a better investment.
Cross dressing really doesnt fall under Gender bender.

No one argues stuff like Date A Live is gender bender just coz the mc cross dresses for a decent portion of the story.
Assassination Classroom is not gender bender just coz the mc can pass as a girl and uses that as a trick sometimes.
Baka to Test is not a gender bender even if like half the volumes have someone or the other crossdressing.
 

Cipiteca396

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Cross dressing really doesnt fall under Gender bender.

No one argues stuff like Date A Live is gender bender just coz the mc cross dresses for a decent portion of the story.
Assassination Classroom is not gender bender just coz the mc can pass as a girl and uses that as a trick sometimes.
Baka to Test is not a gender bender even if like half the volumes have someone or the other crossdressing.
I don't watch any of those shows, so I can't tell you why.

What I can say is, the point of Gender Bender is to defy gender norms. Wearing clothes you aren't allowed to wear is thus Gender Bender. It's as simple as that.

Gender Bender as a genre though, as I mentioned before, specifically requires it to be a plot point. Even if you have a trans character, or a crossdressing character, or an intersex character or whatever else you can think of, it may not be listed as gender bender just because it doesn't matter to the story. At least part of the plot must be motivated by whatever it is. For the record, this plot point would be digging into the meaning of sexuality, gender and society, not just pulling a DisneyMulan and trying to trick your way into the quidditch team; though there can be overlap.

If it is a plot point, and it's not labeled as Gender Bender, it's probably because it's comedy or something. Specifically, the kind of crap that makes trans people the butt of the joke. A lot of anime pretends to be trans inclusive only to make a caricature of trans characters.
 

Aoibh

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Gender Bender as a genre though, as I mentioned before, specifically requires it to be a plot point. Even if you have a trans character, or a crossdressing character, or an intersex character or whatever else you can think of, it may not be listed as gender bender just because it doesn't matter to the story. At least part of the plot must be motivated by whatever it is. For the record, this plot point would be digging into the meaning of sexuality, gender and society, not just pulling a DisneyMulan and trying to trick your way into the quidditch team; though there can be overlap.
So you’re saying, quite a bit of the GB on this website has been misGENRED-(I thought this was funny)?
 

Cipiteca396

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So you’re saying, quite a bit of the GB on this website has been misGENRED-(I thought this was funny)?
Well, it's a pun, so funny or not depends on who you ask.

Tbh, if someone adds the gender bender tag just because they have a gender bent character, that's fine. Most people add it for the views, so it's more likely to be there even when it's not totally needed. This is more about stories that could have it, not having it. There's no reason to force the point. It's not like we're doing math and we'll get the wrong answer if we use inexact terms.
 

Aoibh

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If it is a plot point, and it's not labeled as Gender Bender, it's probably because it's comedy or something. Specifically, the kind of crap that makes trans people the butt of the joke. A lot of anime pretends to be trans inclusive only to make a caricature of trans characters
Ive never seen many trans people in anime, so I don't see your point on this. The only ones that I have seen that the a trans person wasn't represented well mainly by her family was ‘Stop!! Hibari-kun’ Apart from that it is a good show for its time.
What I can say is, the point of Gender Bender is to defy gender norms. Wearing clothes you aren't allowed to wear is thus Gender Bender. It's as simple as that.
That can be seen as quite confusing, since a trans story could be written with a family that would consider the character dressing as their true self as wrong. And then people labelling that as GB in-which it isn't.
Tbh, if someone adds the gender bender tag just because they have a gender bent character, that's fine. Most people add it for the views, so it's more likely to be there even when it's not totally needed. This is more about stories that could have it, not having it. There's no reason to force the point. It's not like we're doing math and we'll get the wrong answer if we use inexact terms.
This just makes my point to be had, there would be a need for a new genre or sub genre since GB doesn't seem to be a tag that can be used properly, it really is maths from my perspective, with a sum that doesn't add up. We need a tag like TSF but with not that a meaning of TSF since it’s a medical term and quite cringe. Like we have a language that can express this many different ways but all we could come up with is ‘gender-bender’ it’s a rubbish word.


Yeah I came into this with the thoughts of kicking the ‘crossdressing’ part out of it, and now I'm coming back with wanting a new tag that better represents quite the huge part of the genre all to the thought of gender being an internal thing and not a physical thing.


@TrashyHuman got more than they bargained for :sweating_profusely::sweating_profusely::sweating_profusely:
 
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Cipiteca396

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Ive never seen many trans people in anime, so I don't see your point on this. The only ones that I have seen that the a trans person wasn't represented well mainly by her family was ‘Stop!! Hibari-kun’ Apart from that it is a good show for its time.
To the anime trans characters. It's common to have something like a deep voiced, bearded, musclebound person wearing terrible make-up and a dress that doesn't fit. And then everyone around them is like, "It's none of my business" or, "If I say anything, they'll beat me up, so I'll just pretend to acknowledge them". It's not like they openly tell everyone they're transphobic. They just show it where anyone who doesn't know what they're looking at can think, "Oh, is that what a transperson is like." You might not even notice it unless you're looking for it.
The other common stereotype would be the 'Body alters mind' one. A character goes through a forced transformation, and then suddenly they like doing stereotypical things associated with their new assigned sex. That one is really common, since it's a popular excuse for closeted trans people to say they aren't really trans. "I'm not trans, I just got swapped and now I enjoy it. You would do the same if you got swapped." It's ironic in that it's hostile to transpeople while also being wish fulfillment for transpeople.
That can be seen as quite confusing, since a trans story could be written with a family that would consider the character dressing as their true self as wrong. And then people labelling that as GB in-which it isn't.
That would be gender bender though. If the family says they shouldn't dress that way, it's a direct challenge to their gender and their identity. That's the point of the Gender Bender genre, not being trans or going through a forced transformation. Technically that would be the Transgender tag, and not the Crossdressing tag though.
A better example would be a tomboy being told not to wear pants because it's 'not right for girls'. Or, it would have been 50 years ago. At this point, girls wearing pants is publicly acceptable, so nobody would think of labeling it as Gender Bender anymore. It still is though. It's a direct challenge to traditional gender roles.
 

Aoibh

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That would be gender bender though. If the family says they shouldn't dress that way, it's a direct challenge to their gender and their identity.
It really isn't, that is just insinuating that the trans person are bending their gender which they aren't, they are being forced to be one way that they aren't. Trans storeys not be listed into the GB genre at all if everything is going well with the MC, like there is no confrontation and them being trans was stated from the start and never brought up again. GB should be applied If the MC didnt know they were trans and found out after they changed from a magical/iseakai/sci-fi or reincarnation change, then the author should consider on how to proceed with the community they representing and demographic.


The other common stereotype would be the 'Body alters mind' one. A character goes through a forced transformation, and then suddenly they like doing stereotypical things associated with their new assigned sex. That one is really common, since it's a popular excuse for closeted trans people to say they aren't really trans. "I'm not trans, I just got swapped and now I enjoy it. You would do the same if you got swapped." It's ironic in that it's hostile to transpeople while also being wish fulfillment for transpeople.
Yeah I agree to this one because I’ve seen this a lot in web novels where they act like tranpeople dont exist, or totally invalidate the trans person by making them seem like perverted grotesque freaks (particularly at trans women, they always seem to be the butt of every joke aimed at trans people invalidating trans men on the go and non-binary folk) that just want to get a kick out of transitioning. The end up making the person who changed to be seen as the real woman and then use snide comments towards trans women.

I also bumped into a transgender tagged novel on here where the author detransitioned a trans guy because he fell for another guy and kept repeating misgender him... but its okay, because whole novel made him look like a right idiot. Anyone with a brain would see that.
 

Cipiteca396

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It really isn't, that is just insinuating that the trans person are bending their gender which they aren't, they are being forced to be one way that they aren't.
Trans storeys not be listed into the GB genre at all if everything is going well with the MC, like there is no confrontation and them being trans was stated from the start and never brought up again.
These two statements contradict each other. The trans person is in conflict, because 'they are being forced to be one way that they aren't' by their family. For the record, it's possible for internal conflict to be the primary struggle, so enemy family members aren't necessary either. All that's needed is for conflict to occur on the basis of gender or identity.
author detransitioned a trans guy because he fell for another guy and kept repeating misgender him... but its okay,
From a Boys Love? Though I haven't dug into it too much, I've heard that it's a common fetish for some girls. 'Fujoshi'. The equivalent of the guy who thinks lesbians just exist to be a tool to get a threesome.

It's not okay, really. Even if you know they're an idiot, not everyone who reads it will.
Edit: Thinking about it, this might be the place for a two star review, or a one star if they have garbage language skills as well. A way to warn other readers, and maybe the author as well.
 
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Ddraig

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Gender Bender as a genre though, as I mentioned before, specifically requires it to be a plot point. Even if you have a trans character, or a crossdressing character, or an intersex character or whatever else you can think of, it may not be listed as gender bender just because it doesn't matter to the story. At least part of the plot must be motivated by whatever it is. For the record, this plot point would be digging into the meaning of sexuality, gender and society, not just pulling a DisneyMulan and trying to trick your way into the quidditch team; though there can be overlap.

If it is a plot point, and it's not labeled as Gender Bender, it's probably because it's comedy or something. Specifically, the kind of crap that makes trans people the butt of the joke. A lot of anime pretends to be trans inclusive only to make a caricature of trans characters.
Nah, I doubt you recognize this series but Kampfer is a series about a guy who acquire magical powers. Except only girls can have magical powers, so he becomes a girl everytime he uses his powers. There is zero social commentary, it is more or less an ecchi series but no one will argue it is not Gender Bender.

What I can say is, the point of Gender Bender is to defy gender norms. Wearing clothes you aren't allowed to wear is thus Gender Bender. It's as simple as that.
Nah, it is nothing so grand - it is just about stories where someone changes their gender due to some kind of plot or something. Usually it meant physical change or body swap but you can extend it to mental gender if you wish. I really dont see why you are insisting on crossdressing implying gender bender.

If it is a plot point, and it's not labeled as Gender Bender, it's probably because it's comedy or something. Specifically, the kind of crap that makes trans people the butt of the joke. A lot of anime pretends to be trans inclusive only to make a caricature of trans characters.
Or it is just a light hearted series... like say, Grand Blue is a comedy series, it used crossdressing in a beauty contest to basically say, "Hey Char B, there is no need to let yourself be bullied to fit into a the popular group - be yourself" or something long those lines.

Here is a more popular example, Pokemon - Ash has crossdressed multiple times throughout his eternal 10 year old journey. I think we all can agree that there was no social commentary or making fun of trans chars here...

Also honestly, and this is my personal preference, but I enjoy mc crossdressing, it makes for hilarious situations that I dont mind in almost any novels. Gender bender on the other hand is something I only want when I am specifically looking for it.

Basically Gender Bender has a higher chance to have plots with the trans/gender plot points but the genre itself does not imply that to be the case. There is no need to limit it to just that...
Crossdressing on the other hand neither has the higher chance going nor the implication.
 
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Aoibh

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These two statements contradict each other.
I was literally writing two sentences at once o.o I was talking about the already existing reincarnation/isekai that literally to bring up what happened at the start like it never mattered and then just put the gb tag on.
From a Boys Love?
No, it was a cis guy making the terf cliché of saying the trans guy was a confused delicate girl that needed help. 🤮🤮🤮 Honestly terfs going out for ‘equal’ rights then go into misogynistic and misandristic ideology sorry for the off topic o.o
Kämpfer is messed up :sweating_profusely:
 

Aoibh

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<.<
>.>
I honestly kinda dont remember it well
It was basically a fetish anime about crazed lesbian trying to turn author-san into a girl so crazed lesbian can fall in love with him and fuck.... Japan.
Edit: Thinking about it, this might be the place for a two star review, or a one star if they have garbage language skills as well. A way to warn other readers, and maybe the author as well.
I was looking for the novel I left the commemt on, but I think the author either deleted the comment or deleted the novel.
Oh I needed to apply jazz hands with ‘Japan’.
 
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Ddraig

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It was basically a fetish anime about crazed lesbian trying to turn author-san into a girl so crazed lesbian can fall in love with him and fuck.... Japan.
It was a fanservice anime full on, zero plot till I remember. Oh and also our genderbent mc was the hottest thing amongst lesbians.

Then again tbf, Kampfer is not the kind of stuff you regular encounter or see it being mentioned :blobrofl:
 

Cipiteca396

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I'm tempted to just leave it there, but I'll give it one more try.
I really dont see why you are insisting on crossdressing implying gender bender
I don't really see why you insist it isn't.
Or it is just a light hearted series... like say, Grand Blue is a comedy series, it used crossdressing in a beauty contest to basically say, "Hey Char B, there is no need to let yourself be bullied to fit into a the popular group - be yourself" or something long those lines.

Here is a more popular example, Pokemon - Ash has crossdressed multiple times throughout his eternal 10 year old journey. I think we all can agree that there was no social commentary or making fun of trans chars here...

Also honestly, and this is my personal preference, but I enjoy mc crossdressing, it makes for hilarious situations that I dont mind in almost any novels. Gender bender on the other hand is something I only want when I am specifically looking for it
Though this might be the problem. You can take a character wearing a disguise or costume as a joke and call it crossdressing, but when I think of crossdressing I think of the people who aren't doing it as a joke.
Crossdressing on the other hand neither has the higher chance going nor the implication.
It does have an implication though. 'This character is doing something they shouldn't be doing. Instead of getting mad, we want you to laugh at their folly.' It's the same 'joke' as when a character gets caught peeping in the girls bath. Because it's being played for laughs, the result is [the pervert gets slapped by a bunch of girls and enjoys it] instead of [the pervert gets castrated and dragged through the city streets]. Very funny, right?
Laughing at the funny crossdressing scene is good fun, until they turn around and ask, "Do you really think this is a joke?"
 

Aoibh

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The trans person is in conflict, because 'they are being forced to be one way that they aren't' by their family. For the record, it's possible for internal conflict to be the primary struggle, so enemy family members aren't necessary either. All that's needed is for conflict to occur on the basis of gender or identity.
Oh I forgot to reply to this, basically everything here is a reality for quite a few trans people tho, its not gender-bending this is just default discrimination to the reality of quite a few trans lives who are less unfortunate to be accepted by those around them. So I totally disagree with this should be part of the genderbending tag, when people mostly only put GB in it for the magical/isekai and so on story, and not having another option to use, because it is drastically different compared to the other stuff that is represented in the GB tag in general.
specifically looking for it.
I like the more mature crossdressing comics and novels and it being BL as well o.o I have my likes :blob_pout:
 
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Cipiteca396

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because it is drastically different compaired to the other stuff that is represented in the GB tag in general
Just because a few people misuse it doesn't mean we should change the real definition. Gender Bender is and always has been an lgbt term. Abandoning it because a few people wrote some head-in-the-clouds fetish fuel or wish fulfillment is dumb.
If that wasn't the point you were trying to make, sorry. I'm way too tired to try to puzzle out your writing.
 
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