Favorite weapon?

[NotaNuffian]

Dude... if they're having you do ridiculous stuff like THAT with a spear, it's not a new weapon you need. You need to find yourself a new style.

More realistic spear combat, about all you really need is knowing how to step and move in order to re-position the tip should the other guy try something sneaky in order to get in under your spear. You need some quick ways to shorten your weapon in order to re-position and re-align in those cases, but theoretically the only way to effectively get past a spear even in single combat would be to use a shield or be wearing full plate with a good helmet. Otherwise, most methods will leave you wide open and simply not allow you to approach fast enough.

(I suppose rolling in under is an option, but you ought to be able to build distance and re-position about as fast as they are closing it with their roll so long as you are paying attention.)

Never roll.
Do not backflip.
Do not Spin.

Here is a fun fact, I twisted my right ankle twice with the stunt.

The other guy who joined in for fun had to staple the tendons of his right big toe and never to do sports ever again.

We had a lithe girl able to pull the stunts though, from making a spear tip flutter and fly into a bouquet to bend it like Beckham. Fyi the spear we used is thin, like a thumb and half thick in diameter and seeing how flexible and fast that thing can go was fun.

Also, the spear techniques inside have things like use the entire body of the spear, which is the butt and body. If the opponent is close, either push them away with the body or knock them with the butt.

 

[Jemini]

Never roll.
Do not backflip.
Do not Spin.

There are extremely limited circumstances where a roll works, but I will agree that the cases where it would work in weapons combat are so vanishingly small you might as well not even consider it. Most of them come up in unarmed grappling combat, and they involve rolling out of a grapple or mitigating damage from a throw. However, getting past a spear in single combat is one of the areas where it might be worth at least thinking about. (of course, it heavily depends on what you are holding and wearing. I am going to presume you don't have a shield or a pole-arm though, otherwise you would have far better tactics easily available.)

Spinning... yeah... haha! The cases where that's useful are about half the size of rolling in weapons combat, and it is actually a WORSE idea in unarmed combat. It would only work if you could get fully out of measure during the portion where your back is turned and only begin to come back in after you have your eyes on the target. The question though is what you are trying to accomplish that couldn't just as easily be done by spinning the weapon around your head while keeping your eye on the target.

Backflip? Are you serious? Do people actually do that stuff? Enlighten me, I am having a hard time picturing the kind of idiot who would try something like that.

 

[BenJepheneT]

honestly, a damn good penis.

nothing is more demoralizing than submitting to some good dicking. a sword cleaves the flesh, but a dick cleaves through reason.

the influence of a phallus is no trifling matter. there's a reason mind break is so frowned upon. it is not the consequence it brings, but the power it holds.

 

[Cipiteca396]

Enlighten me,

I unfortunately couldn't find a good graphic of why rolling is bad though. If the other side has a spear though, and you try to roll under it, all they have to do is lower the tip a little and you'll impale yourself on it. Probably in your back. Rolling is only a good way to get up fast if someone tries to knock you down.

 

[SailusGebel]

There are extremely limited circumstances where a roll works, but I will agree that the cases where it would work in weapons combat are so vanishingly small you might as well not even consider it. Most of them come up in unarmed grappling combat, and they involve rolling out of a grapple or mitigating damage from a throw. However, getting past a spear in single combat is one of the areas where it might be worth at least thinking about. (of course, it heavily depends on what you are holding and wearing. I am going to presume you don't have a shield or a pole-arm though, otherwise you would have far better tactics easily available.)

Spinning... yeah... haha! The cases where that's useful are about half the size of rolling in weapons combat, and it is actually a WORSE idea in unarmed combat. It would only work if you could get fully out of measure during the portion where your back is turned and only begin to come back in after you have your eyes on the target. The question though is what you are trying to accomplish that couldn't just as easily be done by spinning the weapon around your head while keeping your eye on the target.

Backflip? Are you serious? Do people actually do that stuff? Enlighten me, I am having a hard time picturing the kind of idiot who would try something like that.

How come a simple question about personal preferences made you write all of this? I'm talking about all your tirades, and I'm genuinely interested.

 

[Jemini]

I unfortunately couldn't find a good graphic of why rolling is bad though. If the other side has a spear though, and you try to roll under it, all they have to do is lower the tip a little and you'll impale yourself on it. Probably in your back. Rolling is only a good way to get up fast if someone tries to knock you down.

This seems to presume you are still out of measure as the roll begins. If you are even half competent, you will already be under the spear's range by the time you hit the ground. At that distance, the main concern will be trying to avoid running into the other guy's legs while you are in an awkward position which would give him enough time to draw the spear back. If you manage to roll off-line though, you will have successfully closed the distance.

EDIT: Basically, the idea would be either they are holding the spear by the middle, in which case you don't need to roll. You only need to drop your shoulder under the spear head and lunge, and you will be able to take their center mass. Or, they are holding the spear at the back, in which case you can drop your shoulder under the tip (at which point you are already under the spear,) and then go into the roll in order to make up all the distance they are covering due to how they are holding the spear. If they are holding it that far extended, they would need some good training and a level head in order to correct the spear orientation quickly enough to respond. (and yes, I am properly trained enough to know exactly how to draw it back. It would involve pulling the rear hand back as the front hand guides the point and moves up the shaft.) Although, if the spear is long enough to warrant a roll, then it is probably long enough that they can't use this technique in a single smooth motion and thus you would have enough time to rise to standing before they can level the spear at you again.

I'll grant you this though. It would never work on a person who's expecting the roll. If you asked me to test this, you would get me every time. The only way this works is if you take the other guy by suprise.

How come a simple question about personal preferences made you write all of this? I'm talking about all your tirades, and I'm genuinely interested.

It's a martial arts thing. If you have studied real martial weaponry, you can't help but discuss the actual principles behind weapons combat. Also, I don't believe I've actually told anyone they are wrong for their preference, I've only given facts about the weapons that were brought up. The only time I've directly contradicted something that someone has said was when they said something factually wrong such as that comment with the rapier.

That person who mentioned daggers, I agreed that daggers are a pretty darn effective weapon. It's just that they really are not used in the way that was described.

 

[SailusGebel]

This seems to presume you are still out of measure as the roll begins. If you are even half competent, you will already be under the spear's range by the time you hit the ground. At that distance, the main concern will be trying to avoid running into the other guy's legs while you are in an awkward position which would give him enough time to draw the spear back. If you manage to roll off-line though, you will have successfully closed the distance.



It's a martial arts thing. If you have studied real martial weaponry, you can't help but discuss the actual principles behind weapons combat. Also, I don't believe I've actually told anyone they are wrong for their preference, I've only given facts about the weapons that were brought up. The only time I've directly contradicted something that someone has said was when they said something factually wrong such as that comment with the rapier.

That person who mentioned daggers, I agreed that daggers are a pretty darn effective weapon. It's just that they really are not used in the way that was described.

Don't take me wrong I wasn't saying what you did is wrong(though you derived the original topic), nor was I accusing you. I want to ask another question if you would excuse me. Do you understand that actual principles behind weapons aren't set in stone, and you might be wrong? I mean, what you give as facts, isn't 100% true.

 

[Jemini]

Don't take me wrong I wasn't saying what you did is wrong(though you derived the original topic), nor was I accusing you. I want to ask another question if you would excuse me. Do you understand that actual principles behind weapons aren't set in stone, and you might be wrong? I mean, what you give as facts, isn't 100% true.

I know enough about weapons to know what is 100% true due to the fact that what I'm saying is literally in the definition, and what is a trend and tendency within the period. The whole back-and-forth I'm having about rolling right now with another guy who's into martial arts is one of those areas that are genuinely up for debate. What's not up for debate is the shape of a rapier and the principles behind it (basket hilt, double edged blade, longer than a normal arming sword, and primarily used as a dueling weapon,) and the fact that longer weapons are more effective in combat thus a dagger not being a good primary weapon, although it has historically been a VERY effective side-arm weapon especially against armored opponents for coub-de-grace finishers.

These principles about armored combat are fairly well discussed in historical martial arts communities, and armor is fairly under-rated in fantasy writing compared to how overpowered it was in real life. This lack of understanding about how effective real armor is would also be an explanation behind why we have largely forgotten about the dagger's real deadly usefulness in getting past armor where a weapon you have less tip-control over like a sword or a spear can not do as good a job.

EDIT: If your objection is that I don't know everything there is to know about weapons and armor, that's certainly true. The level at which they are being discussed here though is really not all that advanced. We are still well within the bounds of what has more or less been verified as absolute fact by the historical communities.

 

[Cipiteca396]

derived

I think you mean derailed. Queue Princess Bride quote.

 

[SailusGebel]

I know enough about weapons to know what is 100% true due to the fact that what I'm saying is literally in the definition, and what is a trend and tendency within the period. The whole back-and-forth I'm having about rolling right now with another guy who's into martial arts is one of those areas that are genuinely up for debate. What's not up for debate is the shape of a rapier and the principles behind it (basket hilt, double edged blade, longer than a normal arming sword, and primarily used as a dueling weapon,) and the fact that longer weapons are more effective in combat thus a dagger not being a good primary weapon, although it has historically been a VERY effective side-arm weapon especially against armored opponents for coub-de-grace finishers.

These principles about armored combat are fairly well discussed in historical martial arts communities, and armor is fairly under-rated in fantasy writing compared to how overpowered it was in real life. This lack of understanding about how effective real armor is would also be an explanation behind why we have largely forgotten about the dagger's real deadly usefulness in getting past armor where a weapon you have less tip-control over like a sword or a spear can not do as good a job.

Yeah, though you forget that historic documents might be wrong. They might be misinterpreted, the technology level was different at times, and other stuff like that. Everything is up for debate, in my opinion. It's not like we actually saw how this was done, right? And the info from books, guidelines, records may be wrong. Not everything written in books is 100% correct. Also, it's history. History is biased, and that's why you can't be sure for 100% percent. History is written by the winners and blah-blah. It's not like every weapon wielder studied these exact books, not everyone attended these exact fencing schools. You also forget that there is lost info, lost books, lost knowledge. Yeah, right now, we think about this as logical, as truth. We have books, but in the end, it's nothing but a replica, and it can be wrong. Every weapon was used to kill. So far, I haven't seen people killing each other as they experiment. Ballistic gel and animal carcasses can't substitute for the human body.

You as well forget about different martial schools when you talked about spears. Asian martial arts can be different from European martial arts, so all the flips and other 'unnecessary' moves you mentioned might be intended. But, I agree that armor is underrated, sword-fighting is portrayed poorly, and people rarely depict fights with shields good enough. I, as well, wasn't talking about a specific example of a rapier you mentioned. I talked about HEMA in a broader sense.

I think you mean derailed. Queue Princess Bride quote.

Yes, thanks for pointing this out. More times than not my autocorrect fails me.

 

[Jemini]

Yeah, though you forget that historic documents might be wrong. They might be misinterpreted, the technology level was different at times, and other stuff like that. Everything is up for debate, in my opinion. It's not like we actually saw how this was done, right? And the info from books, guidelines, records may be wrong. Not everything written in books is 100% correct. Also, it's history. History is biased, and that's why you can't be sure for 100% percent. History is written by the winners and blah-blah. It's not like every weapon wielder studied these exact books, not everyone attended these exact fencing schools. You also forget that there is lost info, lost books, lost knowledge. Yeah, right now, we think about this as logical, as truth. We have books, but in the end, it's nothing but a replica, and it can be wrong. Every weapon was used to kill. So far, I haven't seen people killing each other as they experiment. Ballistic gel and animal carcasses can't substitute for the human body.

Wow. So, what you're saying here is that the best historically accurate recreations we can make are only 99.99% likely to be true, therefore we have to throw it all out the window?

There is a lot of debate within the HEMA community, and a lot that can be discerned as fact. And, as I said, the information I have discussed so far, with the exception of rolling, is nowhere even close to the grey area where there is any kind of unknown. Everything other than rolling that has been discussed is in that might-as-well-be 100% territory.

You as well forget about different martial schools when you talked about spears. Asian martial arts can be different from European martial arts, so all the flips and other 'unnecessary' moves you mentioned might be intended.

Asian martial arts is actually my primary area of study. Tae-Kwon-Do, Karate, Aikido, Taijutsu, Jujutsu, and jujitsu (yes, the one spelled with a "u" and the one spelled with an "I" are two completely different martial arts.) Acrobatics are not a part of any legit martial art anywhere in the world. The stuff that was being described there is more of a theater performative art, kind of like what Jackie Chan studied. This is evidenced by what @NotaNuffian said about the injuries during the spear training. Those kinds of injuries would not be received in a reasonable martial arts practice.

Legit martial arts like you to keep your footing, keep your spine straight, and keep your stride even. If you leave the ground, something went wrong. It's generally something you want to avoid.

EDIT: Just re-read your post and caught this part and realized what you were probably trying to say.

I talked about HEMA in a broader sense.

So, focusing in on this line, are you saying the question is not so much with specific examples I brought up, but rather you are taking an issue with the general HEMA community and the information that community produces?

Again, I bring up the point. It may not be 100%, but it's the best we have. That means some random thing you come up with is significantly less likely to be accurate. Unless you came up with it in simulated combat and it was found to be an effective use of the weapon while obeying the principles of momentum and edge-alignment, it is probably not a proper use of the weapon. Hollywood stunts are significantly less likely to be accurate as well.

The truth is, real combat is ugly and brutal. It doesn't have fancy flips and flourishes. It does not look pretty or showy. All that pretty stuff is purely an invention of the film industry.

 

[SailusGebel]

Wow. So, what you're saying here is that the best historically accurate recreations we can make are only 99.99% likely to be true, therefore we have to throw it all out the window?

There is a lot of debate within the HEMA community, and a lot that can be discerned as fact. And, as I said, the information I have discussed so far, with the exception of rolling, is nowhere even close to the grey area where there is any kind of unknown. Everything other than rolling that has been discussed is in that might-as-well-be 100% territory.



Asian martial arts is actually my primary area of study. Tae-Kwon-Do, Karate, Aikido, Taijutsu, Jujutsu, and jujitsu (yes, the one spelled with a "u" and the one spelled with an "I" are two completely different martial arts.) Acrobatics are not a part of any legit martial art anywhere in the world. The stuff that was being described there is more of a theater performative art, kind of like what Jackie Chan studied. This is evidenced by what @NotaNuffian said about the injuries during the spear training. Those kinds of injuries would not be received in a reasonable martial arts practice.

Legit martial arts like you to keep your footing, keep your spine straight, and keep your stride even. If you leave the ground, something went wrong. It's generally something you want to avoid.

Nah, I haven't said anything about throwing them out. I said to keep yourself more open to ideas that may contradict your views. It's mostly about word choice, I think? Nevermind. I guess you already think of me as an amateur(perhaps a stupid one). I don't want to derail the initial topic even further. Otherwise, we would send loads of texts back and forth without actually changing each-others opinions.

 

[Jemini]

Nah, I haven't said anything about throwing them out. I said to keep yourself more open to ideas that may contradict your views. It's mostly about word choice, I think? Nevermind. I guess you already think of me as an amateur(perhaps a stupid one). I don't want to derail the initial topic even further. Otherwise, we would send loads of texts back and forth without actually changing each-others opinions.

Ah. Well, anyone seriously approaching historical study would already have an open mind about what might be. It's just that there is some stuff that has become established as most likely, and even some that has risen to the realm of verifiable fact. Most of what we've been dealing in with this discussion so far has been in the realm of fact, and I am plenty willing to hear other ideas that might change my mind, and if the new information is backed by evidence that exceeds what set my mind to my current thinking then my mind will be changed. Simple as that.

I understand the concern, but it is misplaced in this case. The entire reason I've managed to become as informed as I am on various subjects is because I am constantly open to and seeking out new information.

But anyway, yes, we have pretty well derailed this topic with this little back and forth. (Not that it wasn't already becoming derailed with the rolling Vs. not rolling discussion Vs. a spear user thing I had going.) So, yeah. Good talk. But, your concerns are entirely unwarranted in this case.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Wow. So, what you're saying here is that the best historically accurate recreations we can make are only 99.99% likely to be true, therefore we have to throw it all out the window?

There is a lot of debate within the HEMA community, and a lot that can be discerned as fact. And, as I said, the information I have discussed so far, with the exception of rolling, is nowhere even close to the grey area where there is any kind of unknown. Everything other than rolling that has been discussed is in that might-as-well-be 100% territory.



Asian martial arts is actually my primary area of study. Tae-Kwon-Do, Karate, Aikido, Taijutsu, Jujutsu, and jujitsu (yes, the one spelled with a "u" and the one spelled with an "I" are two completely different martial arts.) Acrobatics are not a part of any legit martial art anywhere in the world. The stuff that was being described there is more of a theater performative art, kind of like what Jackie Chan studied. This is evidenced by what @NotaNuffian said about the injuries during the spear training. Those kinds of injuries would not be received in a reasonable martial arts practice.

Legit martial arts like you to keep your footing, keep your spine straight, and keep your stride even. If you leave the ground, something went wrong. It's generally something you want to avoid.

EDIT: Just re-read your post and caught this part and realized what you were probably trying to say.



So, focusing in on this line, are you saying the question is not so much with specific examples I brought up, but rather you are taking an issue with the general HEMA community and the information that community produces?

Again, I bring up the point. It may not be 100%, but it's the best we have. That means some random thing you come up with is significantly less likely to be accurate. Unless you came up with it in simulated combat and it was found to be an effective use of the weapon while obeying the principles of momentum and edge-alignment, it is probably not a proper use of the weapon. Hollywood stunts are significantly less likely to be accurate as well.

The truth is, real combat is ugly and brutal. It doesn't have fancy flips and flourishes. It does not look pretty or showy. All that pretty stuff is purely an invention of the film industry.

Well Wushu is basically acrobatics with weapons, namely to attract people to join the court.

I was initially attracted by sanda and hopped from taekwondo, only to later discover that the court itself teached less on the fighting in sanda portion and more on weapon handling. Fyi, depending on your height and weight, you get an allocation of a weapon and some techniques and stick with it your entire session. I basically join the cudgel gang (population: just me) for my less than ten years in court. While they did taught me on how to use the stick, it is still just mostly preparation for the rigid movement performance you see over in the list in youtube... I cannot find my own procedure anymore.

 

[Jemini]

Well Wushu is basically acrobatics with weapons, namely to attract people to join the court.

Wow. I have never really looked into Wushu all that seriously, but I was under the impression it was an actual legit martial art similar to Taijutsu. Guess not from what you're saying.

Yeah, there are definitely better ways to learn a weapon out there. Preferably one without a high risk of personal injury. That said, training with a stick is pretty good. A spear is basically just a bo-staff with a pointy thing at one end after all.

 

[NotaNuffian]

Wow. I have never really looked into Wushu all that seriously, but I was under the impression it was an actual legit martial art similar to Taijutsu. Guess not from what you're saying.

Yeah, there are definitely better ways to learn a weapon out there. Preferably one without a high risk of personal injury. That said, training with a stick is pretty good. A spear is basically just a bo-staff with a pointy thing at one end after all.

In all seriousness, don't need to look too deep into the sports though. It is more of performance art than as sport, at least in the weapon wielding. In sanda, my coach on that time stated, "you can hear BSs like something mountain fist sect and somthing flying kick guild, once they go up the ring, they just ORA ORA ORA each other until one drops down and the last guy do their signature pose." Fuck the rigid techniques and it is just boxing with kicks. If I want to learn actual fighting techqinues, here is one; learn to run and don't get yourself in the trouble in the first place."

 

[punchew]

ak

 

[owotrucked]

+5 chaos zweihander

 

[SilvoidVorstellung]

Molotov because glass bottle you can found everywhere and gasoline you steal from any vehicle plus if you get any bottle and didn't touch it, technically you can get away from murder. If I have to kill someone I make sure that broke contact with the person then wait for many year then do the deed so no one will suspect that I'm the one who did it.

 

[SilvCrimBlac]

This. The two-pronged hilt, at least in the anime, was very useful for catching and breaking enemy blades. The blade for this sword was also about half a foot longer than a standard katana.

I can't really find what kind of sword it was, some articles claim it is a Tsurugi like what @Jemini in an earlier post. Also, seeing as it is from the Ryukyu Islands, and they had their own form of weaponry/style that was very distinct from any of their neighbors, I suppose it would be called something like an "Okinawan-style Tsurugi" or something. Idk. Fav sword of all time though.

It even has a detachable hidden dagger at the end of the scabbard. Like Mugen said, the hidden dagger was his "ace in the hole."