Healers

[Deleted member 26725]

I don’t think it’s fair that Healers only heal and that’s it. They should be capable of defending themselves, like Medics from first person shooting games!

 

[Surfing_Cipher]

Thats just the perspective every author when writing healers heal or not, non combat = dying immediately against a punch , or healing doing everything like redo of the healer

 

[SailusGebel]

Paladins, cough, paladins, cough-cough, are the healers you are looking for.

 

[Ai-chan]

There is no need to follow the trope that healers can only heal. The idea that healers can only heal is based on modern hippocratic oath system, it's a fairly modern invention. Hippocratic oath itself is ancient, but it's been institutionalized in modern warfare via Geneva Convention. Geneva Convention stated that shooting at medics is a war crime, and the opposite is true, in that medics are not allowed to carry weapons or to act as combatant unless their lives are under threat.

In the past, healers were allowed to fight as well. An example being the Knights Hospitaller/Order of Saint John/Knights of Saint John who provided care and healing to pilgrims in Jerusalem during the age of crusades. Even to this day, The Order of Saint John is active in various forms, such as the organization known as Saint John's Hospital (which separated itself from the martial Order of Saint John in order to avoid being associated with a religious order) and the Knights of Malta. The paladins in pop culture was based off of the Knights Hospitaller.

However, due to the Geneva Convention, those identified as medics are not allowed to carry weapons unless those justly identified as self-defense weapon. If you story is based off a medieval setting, there is no need to apply modern logic to your world.

 

[Mechaphobic]

I think that most healers would be more likely to be combat supports, or they would be completely dedicated to it and avoid combat altogether. In an army, you don't want anyone to be irreplaceable, or if they die it is all over. I imagine that healers would act like Manato from Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash, where he sort of did everything, but that would be the entire party. They also tend to be dead weight when combat isn't going on, and that is boring. I think games like paladins and overwatch display it the most correctly with characters like Baptiste or Soldier 76.


There is a lot of problems with fantasy tropes in general, Goblin Slayer was just too efficient when it came to designing a character.

 

[SailusGebel]

There is no need to follow the trope that healers can only heal. The idea that healers can only heal is based on modern hippocratic oath system, it's a fairly modern invention. Hippocratic oath itself is ancient, but it's been institutionalized in modern warfare via Geneva Convention. Geneva Convention stated that shooting at medics is a war crime, and the opposite is true, in that medics are not allowed to carry weapons or to act as combatant unless their lives are under threat.

In the past, healers were allowed to fight as well. An example being the Knights Hospitaller/Order of Saint John/Knights of Saint John who provided care and healing to pilgrims in Jerusalem during the age of crusades. Even to this day, The Order of Saint John is active in various forms, such as the organization known as Saint John's Hospital (which separated itself from the martial Order of Saint John in order to avoid being associated with a religious order) and the Knights of Malta. The paladins in pop culture was based off of the Knights Hospitaller.

However, due to the Geneva Convention, those identified as medics are not allowed to carry weapons unless those justly identified as self-defense weapon. If you story is based off a medieval setting, there is no need to apply modern logic to your world.

Wasn't there a more simple reason? Healers are basically mages\priests. And pure mages\priests doesn't train in martial arts or self-defense. Pure mages spent most of their life reading, studying, etc. So their bodies wither, and they become old and frail. Priests spent most of their time preaching and doing stuff for their gods. And sometimes, the said priest will be bind by their god's beliefs.

 

[Mechaphobic]

Wasn't there a more simple reason? Healers are basically mages\priests. And pure mages\priests doesn't train in martial arts or self-defense. Pure mages spent most of their life reading, studying, etc. So their bodies wither, and they become old and frail. Priests spent most of their time preaching and doing stuff for their gods. And sometimes, the said priest will be bind by their god's beliefs.

Why would you let your body wither if you went anywhere near a battlefield? Do they think artillery operators only sit around and drink alcohol, dreaming of the day they can fire their weapons? That is the trope I hate the most in fantasy, it was impossible to be lazy unless you were rich. Standard fantasy feels almost slice of life in comparison. You either use the game trope so you can avoid it, or it reads like a slice of life where it is glossed over. Even taking a dump was hard in the medieval periods, how could you let yourself become frail?

 

[Ai-chan]

Wasn't there a more simple reason? Healers are basically mages\priests. And pure mages\priests doesn't train in martial arts or self-defense. Pure mages spent most of their life reading, studying, etc. So their bodies wither, and they become old and frail. Priests spent most of their time preaching and doing stuff for their gods. And sometimes, the said priest will be bind by their god's beliefs.

That wasn't how mages and priests of old work though. Sure, there were priests of the old religion who swore an oath of no harm, such as the priests of Apollo. However, a lot of the priests and 'mages' of the past did not subscribe to the idea of pacifism. Ai-chan doesn't know how many of them are on either side of the spectrum, so just treat this as Ai-chan's opinion.

For example, the priests of Wotan (or those who paid homage to Wotan) actually participated in wars against the Roman empire as active participant. The druids of the British Isles too actually fought in battles against the Roman empire. The mage-priests of of Zoroastrianism in the Persian Empire too fought in wars.

In a sense you can also consider the Persian Immortals as mages too, because most who fought them claimed that Immortals kept getting back up despite mortal wounds. Though in reality they were simply replaced by other Immortals and their dead hidden away to give the illusion that they couldn't die.

In the far east, there is a concept of Warrior Monks/Priests, who were devotees of Mahayana or Taoism beliefs. They fought based on their school doctrine. Many of these priesthood also practice healing arts, though they also learn martial arts. In Japan during the Warring States period, the Ikko Ikki consisted of warrior monks who violated pretty much every Buddhist prohibitions and clashed with Nobunaga for 11 years.

 

[SailusGebel]

Why would you let your body wither if you went anywhere near a battlefield? Do they think artillery operators only sit around and drink alcohol, dreaming of the day they can fire their weapons? That is the trope I hate the most in fantasy, it was impossible to be lazy unless you were rich. Standard fantasy feels almost slice of life in comparison. You either use the game trope so you can avoid it, or it reads like a slice of life where it is glossed over. Even taking a dump was hard in the medieval periods, how could you let yourself become frail?

I'm not telling how it should be or what is the right thing to do. I'm telling my opinion on WHY this was portrayed like this or that. Pure mages and priests are scholars. It's not like they WANT to wither, it's just that they didn't have internet. They didn't have google translate, heck, they didn't even have normal lightning. They are going through tons of material, books, scrolls, etc, and simply don't have enough time to exercise. Even nowadays some people don't have enough time to exercise, because they have so much to do. Imagine how it is in the medieval setting?

That wasn't how mages and priests of old work though. Sure, there were priests of the old religion who swore an oath of no harm, such as the priests of Apollo. However, a lot of the priests and 'mages' of the past did not subscribe to the idea of pacifism. Ai-chan doesn't know how many of them are on either side of the spectrum, so just treat this as Ai-chan's opinion.

For example, the priests of Wotan (or those who paid homage to Wotan) actually participated in wars against the Roman empire as active participant. The druids of the British Isles too actually fought in battles against the Roman empire. The mage-priests of of Zoroastrianism in the Persian Empire too fought in wars.

In a sense you can also consider the Persian Immortals as mages too, because most who fought them claimed that Immortals kept getting back up despite mortal wounds. Though in reality they were simply replaced by other Immortals and their dead hidden away to give the illusion that they couldn't die.

In the far east, there is a concept of Warrior Monks/Priests, who were devotees of Mahayana or Taoism beliefs. They fought based on their school doctrine. Many of these priesthood also practice healing arts, though they also learn martial arts. In Japan during the Warring States period, the Ikko Ikki consisted of warrior monks who violated pretty much every Buddhist prohibitions and clashed with Nobunaga for 11 years.

Erm, I wasn't talking about real-life background, but about things like DND from where most of the current fantasy tropes stemmed.

 

[Mechaphobic]

That wasn't how mages and priests of old work though. Sure, there were priests of the old religion who swore an oath of no harm, such as the priests of Apollo. However, a lot of the priests and 'mages' of the past did not subscribe to the idea of pacifism. Ai-chan doesn't know how many of them are on either side of the spectrum, so just treat this as Ai-chan's opinion.

Points Ai-chan towards the crusades. "Look at all of the weak priests!"

I'm not telling how it should be or what is the right thing to do. I'm telling my opinion on WHY this was portrayed like this or that. Pure mages and priests are scholars. It's not like they WANT to wither, it's just that they didn't have internet. They didn't have google translate, heck, they didn't even have normal lightning. They are going through tons of material, books, scrolls, etc, and simply don't have enough time to exercise. Even nowadays some people don't have enough time to exercise, because they have so much to do. Imagine how it is in the medieval setting?

I know it is an opinion, I just think it is a funny one when you look at the tropes. I imagine most mages would be like Lara Croft type characters. If magic existed then learning it would be very difficult and restricted. I can only imagine the amount of legwork necessary to get all the proper paperwork and licenses. The other reason I said they would likely be in shape is that they don't have any of that stuff. You would have to go back and forth everywhere just to get the information you seek. Have you ever seen a frail librarian? No, they are all in really great shape usually, even the old ones seem nearly immortal.

 

[SailusGebel]

Points Ai-chan towards the crusades. "Look at all of the weak priests!"



I know it is an opinion, I just think it is a funny one when you look at the tropes. I imagine most mages would be like Lara Croft type characters. If magic existed then learning it would be very difficult and restricted. I can only imagine the amount of legwork necessary to get all the proper paperwork and licenses. The other reason I said they would likely be in shape is that they don't have any of that stuff. You would have to go back and forth everywhere just to get the information you seek. Have you ever seen a frail librarian? No, they are all in really great shape usually, even the old ones seem nearly immortal.

Honestly, I've never seen a single fit librarian. I also don't think that going here and there looking for books would make you fit. Not every physical activity led to greater physical shape. I've seen more than enough people who engage in physical activity, but they don't look that great. Don't forget that they might simply sit with a bad posture over one or two books copying things for hours. Some of them will have problems with vision as well, as they would mostly use candles if they don't have access to light magic.

And lastly. I'm not saying that you are entirely wrong about the things you said. You might be right. But, but, how can a fit person engage in a close-quarter fight with someone who trained his whole life on how to wield weapons and so on. Technically they can defend themselves, but when a simple soldier engages in in-fighting, what can a scholar do? We are talking about healers here, not mages that can hurl fireballs or fire breath or stone skin, etc. They MAY be fit, I will give you this. But even a fit person can't do a thing to someone who trained at least a little bit in fighting.

 

[Mechaphobic]

You might be right. But, but, how can a fit person engage in a close-quarter fight with someone who trained his whole life on how to wield weapons and so on. Technically they can defend themselves, but when a simple soldier engages in in-fighting, what can a scholar do? We are talking about healers here, not mages that can hurl fireballs or fire breath or stone skin, etc. They MAY be fit, I will give you this. But even a fit person can't do a thing to someone who trained at least a little bit in fighting.

Why the hell would you be stupid enough to fight them like that? Run the hell away! The goal is not to fight a gorilla in hand-to-hand combat, the goal is to run far enough to aim your rifle at his hairy face. You need to think of Dr. Eggman in the old sonic games, just fast enough to outrun the hero!

 

[SailusGebel]

Why the hell would you be stupid enough to fight them like that? Run the hell away! The goal is not to fight a gorilla in hand-to-hand combat, the goal is to run far enough to aim your rifle at his hairy face. You need to think of Dr. Eggman in the old sonic games, just fast enough to outrun the hero!

Erm, wasn't the whole point of this thread: "They should be capable of defending themselves, like Medics from first person shooting games!" I said why they couldn't defend themselves according to old tropes(in my opinion ofc). Then you say they should run away. I am confused now.

 

[Jemini]

I don’t think it’s fair that Healers only heal and that’s it. They should be capable of defending themselves, like Medics from first person shooting games!

And just what kind of fantasy series have you been reading lately? All the ones I've exposed myself to which have healers in them make healers pretty bad-ass in combat.

One of the far-and-away standouts would have to be "Azarinth Healer." MC becomes one of the most powerful people around specifically because of all the sustain that healing gives her. The best part about it is that it does NOT go the route of Redo of Healer in which it just makes it so the healer is completely OP and can do everything. She has the exact same move-set limitations as everyone else and is working within the same system. It's just because the fact that one of her moves happens to be a healing move she is able to outlast absolutely everyone else and thus can take more risks and get more XP to level up. Level for level, she's actually sub-par in both DPS and healing (compared to pure healers.) She just plain outlevels everybody so the middling move-set doesn't matter.