Help with Commission Issues

35c

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Apr 3, 2020
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CALL UP PAYPAL ON THE PHONE.

Going through the automated services can be a risk. Calling them up and talking to a real flesh and blood person about the issue will go smoother. A lot of people who get shot down through the automated claims find better luck by calling and talking it out over the phone.

You may want to check out Artists Beware. I suggest collating your evidence and posting a beware -- but if you really don't want to, try making an advice post on the forums. Most of the members there are working artists and can provide much better advice because they deal with this more often.

My general advice is talk to the artist and present an ultimatum: provide either the art or a refund, or you will post a public beware about them. Maybe they'll throw a fit and harass you, but trust me, that will just make them look worse, especially to the people that matter -- other potential customers. Start saving screencaps now. PayPal transactions, your conversations, everything. Get the receipts, start putting together a post for insurance, keep it objective. It's manipulative, but in these situations, the cooler head comes out looking better. Ring PayPal directly -- there is no reason they should have denied you a refund. You paid for a service, that service was not provided in the agreed upon terms between you and the other party. Stress that you tried to work things out privately with the other party but they didn't co-operate. Again, get the screencaps and provide them as proof.



Customers have buyer protection for, well, protection. Artists basically only have good faith. There are also so few other instances where payment is expected after the fact, even on the internet. When you buy, say, furniture or a book online, do you say, "Okay, please send it to me and I promise to pay for the item+shipping after it arrives"? No. You buy the product, you pay for the product, you receive the product, in that order. "On the internet" doesn't change the order of things, it just changes the venue. It's not a "demand" to be asked to be paid for your goods and services (and it is a service) up front. It's just the extremely common way business works.

PP very often sides with the disputer, and even if in the end they rule in the artists' favour, it can still leave a permanent black mark on their account, leave them in the red for the duration of the dispute, can cause overdraft fees, etc.

I'll try calling Paypal. If what the other's say is true and purchase protection does cover artwork, then they should be able to help me. Is there a certain position I should take? Like say, I only want half the money refunded because the artist at least sent me drafts. I think it's fair that they get paid for the work they did do. But if I take this position when contacting Paypal, is there a smaller chance they would side with me? Would it be safer to try for a full refund instead of a partial refund?
Like the difference between saying "Hey I never received my artwork" and there like "Okay, here's your refund." Versus saying, "Hey I never received my artwork. But the artist sent me some drafts so I only want a partial refund" so there like "You received drafts? That's artwork right, guess you're not getting any money back"
 

35c

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Apr 3, 2020
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Here's common commission etiquette:
  • If the commission is cancelled due to issues on the commissioner's end, then the commissioner will receive a partial refund for the work left unfinished.
  • If the commission is cancelled due to issues on the artist's end, then the commissioner is entitled to a full refund.
YMMV, but most people who are operating in art circles in good faith go by this rule. This isn't a case of you backing out, or receiving a product you agreed upon but then later changed your mind -- the artist was the one who failed on their end in this transaction. You are absolutely entitled to a full refund, as far as I'm concerned. If you yourself only feel comfortable taking a partial refund for work completed, I won't argue, you should do what feels right for you. But the artist not only did not give you the final product you asked for, they refused to co-operate in resolving things peacefully. They broke down on their side of the transaction. If you decide you only want a partial refund, pick out a hard number beforehand, $50 or whatever you think the initial work is worth. Also make it clear that you are accepting a partial refund on the basis that the initial sketch is yours to keep, maybe discuss taking it to another artist to complete if you wanted. But that's really on the basis that it would still be of use to you completed -- considering the deadline is well gone and even if you got a final product from another artist, it's a moot point as the time you needed it is past.

I'm lucky, as I've never had to go through the process of getting a refund on PP, so I can't give you any advice based on personal experience; only what I've absorbed secondhand through others' discussions. The folks on AB have a wealth of experience on both sides of the fence, which is again, why I suggest posting there. But my personal opinion is: ask for a full refund. Seriously, I can't stress this enough. You're not at fault here, and the work which was completed is no longer of use to you due to the passed deadline. Tell PayPal you would like a full refund, but if the artist is willing to actually communicate in resolving this with PP adjudicating as a third party, you're willing to discuss a partial -- but there needs to be a discussion.

But again! I have no experience. All I can give is opinion.

Post a beware to AB. Although they don't have the same presence as they did back in the LJ heydays, they have a lot of credibility. You can then repost a link to the post on any and all social media you have -- Twitter, facebook, dA, whatever. After that you can only rely on word of mouth and people doing due diligence beforehand to find it. And finally, the way to get them to believe you is with screencaps. All AB posts are reviewed and posted only after approval from the mods, and a necessary part of getting your beware posted is providing adequate proof. This proof is:
  1. A screencap of the PayPal payment with sensitive info blocked out.
  2. A screencap of relevant conversations through whatever avenue you used, whether that's dA notes or discord or whatever. This means conversations about the commission covering discussing of the deadline, the details of what you wanted down, the drafts provided, the later final product that differed from the initial approved draft, attempts at compromise.
  3. A screencap of the attempted refund.
I found the AB community literally because one of my best friends got posted on there as an artist. She came to me to vent, I looked at the post and because of the community policy of providing clear documented proof, my response to her was... "you fucked up, just own up and fix your mistake". They also have a strict anti-harassment policy -- they're there to criticise and archive poor business, not insult the people behind them -- which means for those who aren't being wilfully obtuse, they will recognise you're just trying to give people some awareness about the artist's poor behaviour.

Proof, proof, proof. The proof is in the pudding. BNAs have been held accountable when called out by little no namers before when the proof was provided (and I use the words "held accountable" not "cancelled" because we can all agree, that's not what the aim here is -- you're not out to ruin this person's life, you just don't want others to go through the same shit you did, which is a completely fair and ethical thing to do).


Oh, and most importantly, because I forgot to say this earlier: I am genuinely so, so sorry this happened to you. It's such a shitty situation, you didn't do anything to deserve this, the artist is entirely at fault here for a breakdown in communication and delivering the wrong product, and you definitely cannot be blamed for being wary of working with artists you don't know ever again. It's such a shitshow of a situation to be in, and I genuinely hate that this happened to you, and really really really hope you get at least some of your money back.

I talked with Paypal but they said there was nothing they could do about it, Purchase Protection just doesn't cover artwork. They told me to contact my bank and try to resolve the issue with them. I got in contact with my bank through email, I'm waiting to see what they say. If they don't reply by tomorrow I'll try calling them, that might be faster.

I also contacted the artist again to see if we could resolve things, but they weren't interested.
I'll wait to post on AB until after this whole issue is resolved, so I can give a better account of what happened.

Also, thank you for genuinely caring and trying to help me out. I didn't want to post here because I didn't know if I would just be bothering everyone, but instead you guys have trying helping. Thank you.
 

35c

New member
Joined
Apr 3, 2020
Messages
9
Points
1
Maybe its a new policy. Or it might be because of the virus. Personnel is low so if they don't have to take a case their avoiding it.

And thanks, that would help a lot.
 
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