Historical Fantasy Gripe: 'The Smart MC'

T.K._Paradox

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It is has been increasingly obvious to me as of late I am not a big fan of the 'smart MC' in historical fantasy, specifically in an isekai setting.

When being a mage isn't an option these 'powerless' MCs will use modern day knowledge to their advantage in these fantasy worlds.

Whether it be gunsmithing, military formations, engineering, city planning these guys have it all, and somehow have the ability to actually put it into working practice.

And despite the limitations of the current technology of the world they somehow manage to create things in little to no time.

AND they never have any problem getting the materials for the thing they are creating.

My main problem when it comes to this type of protagonist is that it installs the idea that the MC with enough time will be able to find a way to overcome his problem not once being limited by his tools in resources.

And doesn't really set up any other goal for the MC to overcome besides waiting a small bit to overcome the current obstacle.
 

AliceShiki

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military formations
Honestly, this one is the one that bothers me the most.

Like... You (as in, the Isekai'd MC) really think that you're better at organizing military formations than the people who are there and have years of experience on their field? You aren't.

"But I'm a military nerd who read all sorts of textbooks on it!"

Great job. You're still garbage when compared to people with actual field experience.

"But I can use my knowledge of trench warfare in this medi-fantasy setting to make them use their spells much more efficiently!"

You moron author. If trench warfare was viable in this medi-fantasy setting, then it would have already been developed. How long do you think it took to develop trench warfare once guns became widespread, huh? The answer is: Not much! The people of any time-period are not stupid. The military generals will figure out how to make a functional military formation with the tools available to them. And they'll do it better than your isekai'd MC because this is actually their job and they have years and years of experience with this.


... That said, there was one time where I saw military formations come from an Isekai'd character and it made sense.

It was in one of the earlier volumes of Youjo Senki. A modern fantasy setting focused on wars and stuff.

The current setting was in a situation that was somewhat similar to what was about to become WW1... As in, technology (and magic) had advanced considerably since the last big war, so people's tactics and formations were outdated because they did not have actual field practice using the new tools that had been developed in recent years.

Isekai'd MC was aware of the power of the new tools because she was isekai'd. She knew how much of an advantage they had over an enemy country simply because they had air superiority in terms of technology, which isn't something that the generals of her country were aware of because... Well, they had not done any big wars with planes and flying mages yet.

So, she made full use of this advantage to quickly stomp some enemy forces, before they could realize the disadvantageous position that they were in.

This works specifically because it's a scenario somewhat akin to WW1. Like... The kind of scenario that completely revolutionized the way that wars were fought... I believe some people took horses with them to WW1 at first, because they really thought they were going to be useful... They had no idea what they were getting at.

So like... If your MC is going to use better military tactics specifically in a setting where a technological revolution has just happened and the military commanders have yet to properly adapt to the new technology? Sure, that can work. Isekai'd knowledge is helpful there.

... Otherwise, it just feels really really dumb. The people in the setting should know how to use their tools. The isekai'd MC should not be able to do it better than them.
 
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Empyrea

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It's just a different flavor of power fantasy. People like to think of themselves or their society as better. I think it's fine for some writers to fill the fantasy for some readers.

Lots of types of fiction are unrealistic and accepted as such. I say let the authors and readers interested in it do what they want.
 

Syringe

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You're telling me you wouldn't be able to make a revolver out of stone and raw, unprocessed ores? Isn't it obvious that you can use any barrel and metal for a chamber without it blowing up the gun?

Oh what that's that? You can't make a Main Battle Tank with this modern schematic I pulled out my a**? Damn, you Dwarves are useless.

Daaaamn, you guys are still using wooden cups but not plastic? One second, let me go whip up some fresh polyethylene. I'll teach you all how to make it later. It's easy I swear.

The kingdom's getting wrecked? Perfect. I, a teen from a different world, will know exactly what to do. Thanks for trusting me, wise king.

I read the Art of War (knows only like 3 quotes). I know what I'm doing. Your generals with decades of war experience got nothing on me.

Damn the bows aren't doing much damage to them huh? Don't worry, we'll use modern bows. I heard in a youtube comment they do more damage than bullets! Luckily, I looked at the schematics once on the way home from school after tripping over an ice cream slick, exactly at an intersection before I was hit by a truck.

Here, let's add some red dot sights, a suppressor, foregrip and a bluetooth chip for wireless coms and Apple Play.

Wait, this world doesn't have certain metals? Don't worry, I know the perfect composition of them at the molecular level, so we can make an alloy that is 100% similar to them.

ICBMs? C'mon, which teenager wouldn't know how to make them? Aren't you like 1,000 years old? How aren't you even at that level yet?

You want me to stop an illegal drug trade in this fantasy world? Easy. I have a Master's Degree in Breaking Bad. I know how the game works.

/s obviously.

But in all seriousness, it's fun. I really do enjoy seeing fantasy stories introduce modern stuff, even if it's unrealistic as hell (Arifureta comes to mind. But I love it so much). Just slap magic onto it and I'm easily convinced lol.
 
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AliceShiki

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engineering, city planning
Btw, it's a bit funny to think of these too, like...

The gunsmith I can kinda understand, since making guns is a very very specific type of knowledge that a gun nerd could realistically learn and could reproduce with magic. I can kinda pass on that one (as long as the MC is a gun nerd, of course).

But engineering and city planning? I mean... https://news.mit.edu/2023/roman-concrete-durability-lime-casts-0106

Turns out the Romans were better at making concrete than 2022 architects were.

Stuff like Pyramids and the gardens of Babylon are also amazing feats of engineering. And many ancient civilizations had very complex systems of irrigation and the like to make sure that they got maximum productivity from crops and stuff.

Oh, and Romans had sewers too.

So, what I'm trying to get is... Engineering and City Planning are very very complex subjects and are extremely complicated and need an extreme amount of study to do right... And even then, people from ancient civilizations were already amazing at making those work, so... What are you even going to do that is going to overcome the locals? The isekai'd MC most likely would be lost at the mere difference in materials to do construction, never mind taking into account the local environment, defensability according to weapons of the time and the like...

Isekai'd MC being able to do engineering and city planning really feels like a forced development, honestly... >.>
 

JayDirex

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It is has been increasingly obvious to me as of late I am not a big fan of the 'smart MC' in historical fantasy, specifically in an isekai setting.

When being a mage isn't an option these 'powerless' MCs will use modern day knowledge to their advantage in these fantasy worlds.

Whether it be gunsmithing, military formations, engineering, city planning these guys have it all, and somehow have the ability to actually put it into working practice.

And despite the limitations of the current technology of the world they somehow manage to create things in little to no time.

AND they never have any problem getting the materials for the thing they are creating.

My main problem when it comes to this type of protagonist is that it installs the idea that the MC with enough time will be able to find a way to overcome his problem not once being limited by his tools in resources.

And doesn't really set up any other goal for the MC to overcome besides waiting a small bit to overcome the current obstacle.
Bruv, what you are reading are amateurs who strip the stories of all subtext. There's no true "story engine," where the MC gets to actually show some impressive knowledge to a reader based on an expertise that he has, like a good author would.

So what you are reading are the copycats who just strip all of the expertise out and just blatantly say "I know how to "x" and voila here it is! See how I've made your life easier!?" Without any of the context of how he got it done and the expertise he used.

You get me?

No subtlety, no expertise. Makes a bad story engine.
 

Cipiteca396

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How long do you think it took to develop trench warfare once guns became widespread, huh?
About a hundred years and like... five wars.
So like... If your MC is going to use better military tactics specifically in a setting where a technological revolution has just happened and the military commanders have yet to properly adapt to the new technology? Sure, that can work. Isekai'd knowledge is helpful there.
Usually the MC causes the technological revolution... So that part's pretty much guaranteed to be true.
... Otherwise, it just feels really really dumb. The people in the setting should know how to use their tools. The isekai'd MC should not be able to do it better than them.
historical fantasy
I do wish more fantasy stories weren't reliant on medieval settings though... It'd be nice to see more advanced magic/technology hanging around.
 

AliceShiki

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About a hundred years and like... five wars.
Uhn... Sorry, let me rephrase.

How many years passed since the creation of guns that were actually usable in trench warfare, and the actual creation of trench warfare?

Rifles that didn't have a slow-loading problem were created in 1840 (rifles before that time were slower to reload than a musket. They were not exactly feasible to use in a trench).

New Zealand Wars of 1845 already had some usage of trenches and bunkers, though it seems to be a mostly one-sided thing from the defenders.
Crimean War of 1853 already used trench warfare, and the American Civil War of 1861 used too.

Granted, those weren't exactly the same as the trench warfare of WW1, but WW1 also had even better technology and like... 40x more people than the American Civil War or something? (I actually just looked at the casualties numbers to compare the number of combatants. I wouldn't be surprised if the gap was bigger than 40x)

Oh, and American Civil War had 20,000 rifles, more or less... WW1 had 41,000,000, so... About 2000x more rifles?

This kind of thing naturally creates changes in how the warfare develops.
Usually the MC causes the technological revolution... So that part's pretty much guaranteed to be true.
Ah, in that case I agree that it's fine.

I was working under the assumption that the MC was working with existing tech and was just using tactics though.
I do wish more fantasy stories weren't reliant on medieval settings though... It'd be nice to see more advanced magic/technology hanging around.
Well, modern fantasy has its charm, but I'm personally a lot more fond of medi-fantasy~

It's just something dependent on taste, I guess. I like my medi-fantasy.
 
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Kenjona

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Funny enough, most (pretty sure nearly all) technology was "invented" before it was functionally built, by decades to even hundreds of years. The issue was not so much in the design, but in the a materials we had access too.
Much of our chemical usage and knowledge, is because we discovered a use for the waste of another chemical process.
The reason the Romans had better cement was not because we suddenly lost the knowledge to make it, it is because we lost access to the specific materials for their form of cement, and so ended up losing the "recipe" for it. This is true of a lot of "ancients did it better" stuff, not so much that they had better knowledge, but they had better access to certain materials, we either no longer have access to (mined or stripped out) or because there is insufficient quantities of that particular material so we need to use alternatives, or need to use processes to get close to that materials form.
My biggest pet peeve, is the "I invent a "game" and it earns me millions." type of trope, like no one is going to copy your game and make it themselves. You invented Chocolate? Wonder how long that is going to stay a secret.
 

TheEldritchGod

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Dude, I'm on my phone, but most of these stories involve magic with a classic 4 element structure. I could make a fusion bomb with the water element alone. People assume nukes are complicated. They aren't. The addition of magic allows the breaking of physics in ways that will hurt your brain.

Don't have time to do the math, but yeah, real world physics applied with magic to get past certain limitations equals nukes.

Now if you are griping about non magical settings as well, saltpeter plus sulfur plus coal equal boom. Give me time to experiment, in a society without gunpowder or magic, I'll have cannons. Once I have cannons, I win. Grapeshot against knight's win.

The Zulu vrs the British. That is what gunpowder vrs not is like on an industrial scale.

The average modern dude, just understanding the concept of the assembly line, can transform society. So the Manga condenses it down to a shorter time frame? They take dramatic license with the specifics. Big deal.
 

T.K._Paradox

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This is a really nice public review.

And this is why I avoid having my works posted here. I want to write what I want to write.
You are sorely mistaken if you think I am speaking about your work Hans.

I genuinely like your series.

Hell I was going to use your story as this character type done right.
 

CarburetorThompson

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I hate this troupe so much. I remember watching The Gun Hero anime, where the guy uses magic to make an H1 hummer in a fantasy world. First off H1 hummers are cheap as shit and super uncomfortable to ride. Second the creation magic lets him create anything he can think of so I guess that means he knows the complete inner workings of an internal combustion engine, ac unit, radio, drive shaft etc. There’s not many car mechanics that know all of that. Also we’re just gonna assume this Japanese highschooler knows how to drive. Thank you for coming to my Tedx Talk
 

AliceShiki

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The reason the Romans had better cement was not because we suddenly lost the knowledge to make it, it is because we lost access to the specific materials for their form of cement, and so ended up losing the "recipe" for it.
I dunno about the other things where "the ancients did it better", but this is definitely not the case for the Roman Concrete.

Let me quote the most important part related to this from the article I linked a bit above.
Previously disregarded as merely evidence of sloppy mixing practices, or poor-quality raw materials, the new study suggests that these tiny lime clasts gave the concrete a previously unrecognized self-healing capability.
So, it really seems like a case of losing the recipe. Especially because...
As a result of these successful tests, the team is working to commercialize this modified cement material.
“It’s exciting to think about how these more durable concrete formulations could expand not only the service life of these materials, but also how it could improve the durability of 3D-printed concrete formulations,” says Masic.
Through the extended functional lifespan and the development of lighter-weight concrete forms, he hopes that these efforts could help reduce the environmental impact of cement production, which currently accounts for about 8 percent of global greenhouse gas emissions.
So like, we definitely have had access to plenty of the material to make the Lime Clasts that make the Roman Concrete durable.

We just... Lost the knowledge, and it took us a huge amount of time to figure out what was missing.

... Though apparently we hadn't figured it out for so many years mainly because of incompetence tbh. Like...
“The idea that the presence of these lime clasts was simply attributed to low quality control always bothered me,” says Masic. “If the Romans put so much effort into making an outstanding construction material, following all of the detailed recipes that had been optimized over the course of many centuries, why would they put so little effort into ensuring the production of a well-mixed final product? There has to be more to this story.”
How did nobody think this until now? Like... Seriously? Nobody tried experimenting with the Lime Clasts until just now and instead just assumed that they were there due to low quality control? o.0

Feels like incompetence on the part of the researchers to me, but it doesn't change the fact that the recipe wasn't lost due to losing access to the materials.
Dude, I'm on my phone, but most of these stories involve magic with a classic 4 element structure. I could make a fusion bomb with the water element alone. People assume nukes are complicated. They aren't. The addition of magic allows the breaking of physics in ways that will hurt your brain.

Don't have time to do the math, but yeah, real world physics applied with magic to get past certain limitations equals nukes.
Generally speaking, the way magic and physics interacts isn't perfect. Otherwise it becomes too easy to break the setting (and many things plain and simply don't work if you try respecting physics too much).

Magic is magic, it doesn't need to follow physics.
Now if you are griping about non magical settings as well, saltpeter plus sulfur plus coal equal boom. Give me time to experiment, in a society without gunpowder or magic, I'll have cannons. Once I have cannons, I win. Grapeshot against knight's win.
You have to know that saltpeter + sulfur + coal creates explosives (far from a common knowledge), and you have to find ways to obtain those materials in large enough quantities, figure out ways to safely experiment with them (don't wanna die in your own experiments, after all), and you have to figure out how to make a cannon that withstands the explosion.

You also need to figure out ways to properly preserve the ingredients, as I imagine too much humidity/dryness can alter them.

Then, you need to find ways to make your cannon mobile (well, you can put them on forts at least, to avoid the mobile part) and easy enough to aim to be usable... And well, you'll still need knights to protect your cannons (since they'll probably be unable to rapid-fire), and you'll need to make sure to not hit allies with friendly fire with your extremely unstable weapon.

... Doesn't seem like as much of an easy plan as you're suggesting. Especially if you're reborn as commoner.
The average modern dude, just understanding the concept of the assembly line, can transform society. So the Manga condenses it down to a shorter time frame? They take dramatic license with the specifics. Big deal.
Uhn... How will you incorporate a functional assembly line without something akin to actual machines that require the assembly line?

What is your blacksmith assembly line? What is your seamstress assembly line? What is your woodcutting assembly line?

This... Doesn't seem helpful in the slightest.
Second the creation magic lets him create anything he can think of
... Can't he make a carriage moved by oxygen or something? I mean... If anything goes, then you can probably do something better than the Hummer.

Or rather... Good old super robots? Make them move together with the pilot's movements (magically, of course) so as to not need to create any complex control system, and make them powered up by oxygen or whatever. This way you only need to know how to properly imagine the joints and you're good to go.
 

T.K._Paradox

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You are sorely mistaken if you think I am speaking about your work Hans.

I genuinely like your series.

Hell I was going to use your story as this character type done right.
Also speaking of said review I am trying to at least read up your current novel about the Elf Saint @Hans.Trondheim.

Look forward to my review of the series, as it will also be a talk on isekai in general.
 

ElijahRyne

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Now if you are griping about non magical settings as well, saltpeter plus sulfur plus coal equal boom. Give me time to experiment, in a society without gunpowder or magic, I'll have cannons. Once I have cannons, I win. Grapeshot against knight's win.
Fun fact, the ancient Greeks designed steam powered cannons, and I am pretty sure they built them as well, so there might be no need for the gunpowder…
It is has been increasingly obvious to me as of late I am not a big fan of the 'smart MC' in historical fantasy, specifically in an isekai setting.

When being a mage isn't an option these 'powerless' MCs will use modern day knowledge to their advantage in these fantasy worlds.

Whether it be gunsmithing, military formations, engineering, city planning these guys have it all, and somehow have the ability to actually put it into working practice.

And despite the limitations of the current technology of the world they somehow manage to create things in little to no time.

AND they never have any problem getting the materials for the thing they are creating.

My main problem when it comes to this type of protagonist is that it installs the idea that the MC with enough time will be able to find a way to overcome his problem not once being limited by his tools in resources.

And doesn't really set up any other goal for the MC to overcome besides waiting a small bit to overcome the current obstacle.
Like I can see how someone can teach a Stone Age society how to advance to the Iron Age, assuming they are well versed in that type of knowledge. But, I find it hard for them to do much more than instill the scientific method after that.
 
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