How do girls feel about Harems for guys?

AliceShiki

Magical Girl of Love and Justice
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What the

Is this true????????? I thought everyone knew I was a girl, I write BL....
I mean... If you don't set a gender in your profile and put "handsome" in your title, I'm naturally gonna assume you're a man... >.>

I usually assume the gender on someone's profile is their gender... But if there is none listed, then I just go by avi/title... >.>
 

happypanda

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Harems? Amazing for short term fun. You get to have sex with a lot of people, maybe arrange a few gangbangs or orgies.
Long term? What if... say, one of the harem members develop last stage cancer? Or someone gets in crippling debt? What happens then? Do they all take care of the troubled person? Or does the harem king/queen suddenly finds them to be not so attractive anymore/an eyesore, and suddenly there is a new harem member to replace the old one? Will they start killing each other's children when property inheritance come into question?
As a guy with severe trust issues, I find any harem or polyamorous relations to be unreliable. Maybe it works out well for some people, but to convince me they'll have to sustain the 'happy harem family' for a few decades.
 

LinXueLian

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Well, I call it offensive because of Keyaruga's morals doh. I'm not gonna say anything else, except for the fact that that shit is hentai.
Oh, THAT. I don't really associate art or creations with personal morals, so I don't find it offensive. An author may not agree with the character's intentions or morals, after all - he or she pens the stories as is, sometimes.

Hentai's out of the world, man. Can't take it seriously LOL

That's a hard thing, like most of the content for women that I see consist of being surrounded by handsome men and all that. And, in the internet, I basically assume everyone's a guy unless they provide proof that proves that they are girls.

I see. So you're put off by the "surrounded by handsome men" thing? Well, hold on to that feeling - because that's what a lot of girls probably feel too when they see titles surrounded by bishoujos. It might also answer your question as to what girls sometimes feel about waifu novels, or harems or shounen titles with pantyshot boobshot fanservice - they're a turn-off for some. It's just that, "yuck, ewww" moment perhaps.

Like... If I see a waifu or something on the cover of a title or novel... I'd go "whoops, no thanks, not for me!" and immediately hit the back button and look for something else. I believe most guys go "yuck, girly gay shit" when they see hot guys on the cover. They aren't very different from the other, it seems.

As for gender divide in internet content comments....... there's probably a reason why girls are less vocal in comment sections in anime, leading to you believing most consumers are male. I see pretty often that we get bashed in the anime Disqus comments by guys for the things we like. I remember this guy at work who bashed BL and said that we fujos were invading Pixiv and "dirtying it". A week later he asked me out without a single apology for ragging at my interests. So yeah..... with that sort of thing happening pretty often, very few girls who like anime are going to talk to guys who like anime or want their comments to be seen by them. We girls tend to have our private chats. I'm part of one right here in SH, invite only. It's appears to be a safe-zone away from guys who'll judge us - girls probably feel freer to say things they want to say.

Probably a reason why a lot of guys who like anime are single, come to think of it. :blob_hmm: Like, holy shit, did I just answer that age-old question as to why otaku guys usually can't get girls although there are many otaku girls out there? Bros have scared the girls all off with their angry manry rant bashing LOL BYE GUYS AVOIDING YOU FOREVER LOL

Anyways back on track, I usually see comments of them saying "Just don't hide anymore!" and fangirl stuff like that. So, it's hard to find some good shit comments given by actual girls.
Whaaaaaa
Fangirl stuff are gold to me tbh! I fangirl ALL the time! It's good shit in a way that it's natural - fangirling is very raw, and if you were to look past that sort of thing, you can tap into the mindset of a girl, especially if you're dead afraid of approaching one for a conversation. A girl gushing over a male character, for example, might give an idea as to what sort of male characters are an ideal to a girl reading or watching something. You mentioned wanting to write male characters that girls will like - at least in a romantic setting - that's one way to take notes.

Not all research, especially of the inter-relation kind, is available on the spoon to us. If we want to truly understand a demographic, we'll have to dig deep, deconstruct these statements, and learn.

For example, otaku guys don't give me much to work with either. It's usually a, "wow Shion boobs hot on slime head" or "wow waifu boobs hot nice panties I'm a man of culture". It's not good shit but... it's still shit. I learn quite a bit about the mindset of anime-loving guys that way. :blob_okay:

Though the best comments I've seen were along the lines of, "I would turn gay for Gojyo Satoru pls be my piano teacher". Ah, Gojyo-sensei, turning 2021 into the world's hottest year

I don't write solely on their genders, I like to mix-mash some personalities, and even ask some of my IRL friends about their OCs in which case, I happily put in (less stress for character building hehehe) and develop in the story itself.
Nah, it's cool. I don't mind how you write your characters - it's your story, you do what you want. That sort of thing is meant mostly for your readers. I just pointed the gender thing out in case anyone else was also reading this and trying to figure out what to do with their female characters. One can go the stock-anime way of hyper-feminizing it to attract a certain readership (young males), or one could write it a different way based on current feministic trends (young females). You will still get readers either way.

The reason why I wanted them to be realistic is because of Attack on Titan. Me and my brother fell in love with how the characters there were humans. Some actually being broken by the fact that they have to face the titans, Eren being so mad at the titans to the point where his goal is to drive them extinct and proves it with his actions. Those are the types of characters I want.

I'm not sure what you mean. I don't find any of the characters in AOT realistic perse. They do have goals and they're driven by their own motives, but "realistic" isn't a word I'd describe the characters with. "Memorable", "raw and emotional" or "entertaining", perhaps, but.... as for realistic, I wouldn't really think so, at least not one hundred percent. There's being broken and angry, and then.... there's this. I find a lot of the motives, expressions and emotions expressed in AOT by the characters rather over the top, for the most part - they're very...... anime. Poignant and poetic perhaps, but... realistic...... that's a little far-reaching, even for me. :sweating_profusely:

These characters and their world are immersive, no doubt. It's quite different from "realistic" imo, which is semantically tied to real life, documented events or an actual time period. I've never met anyone like AOT characters - those traits don't appear to exist in real life too often. They're culturally anime.

Overall, AOT characters aren't bad. They're lovable and enjoyable, and definitely people populating their world, which is fantasy-based with semi-historical elements. They're of course, culturally acclimated to their own world and their surroundings. This makes them feel natural to their setting - so as an audience, it won't feel so jarring when you're consuming the media.

Judging from what you've said so far, I personally feel that the characters you seem to want aren't so much "realistic", but rather, immersive, naturally acclimated and memorable like the ones in AOT - something people can enjoy, remember and talk about fondly. Characters like these are a completely different kettle of fish altogether to write - there's a different way of writing and constructing these people and their worlds. From what I've seen, authors who can successfully do this don't always write these worlds and characters with realism in mind, but rather an understanding of what ticks with a readership, and how to channel emotions of a reader through a narrative.

My core audience is... Well yeah, young males who want isekai. But I want to change isekai. For me, isekai had been an escapism from reality, but now that I've grown up, I knew that there was no escaping reality. That's when I thought, "What if we show them what isekai would feel if it really did happen?" With the story my brother gave me as the foundation, I basically destroyed it all excluding its original goal, and changed almost everything. I want girls to like the male characters, I want the males to like the females, heck maybe even same gender liking their gender, I want to make a novel like that.

Aha yeah your core audience would young males into isekai of course, what SH is full of :blob_happy: - out of curiosity, how are you marketing to potential female readers though? :blob_hmm: Female characters that female readers can relate to aren't necessarily a draw for us, mind - remember how you mentioned stuff geared towards girls are mostly about being surrounded by hot guys? If you're not into it..... which female reader is going to give your novel the time of their day? Will they even click on it?

In the case of popular titles with large demographics picking them up... AOT had Levi and Erwin's relationship subtext-wise. Bear in mind that the writer knew exactly what he was doing, the same way Kishimoto Masashi did when he planted Iruka on the mom's side of Naruto's wedding and the other male parental figure, Kakashi, on the dad's. Watanabe's editor knew exactly what he was doing when he said, "change Onoda and Toudo into guys". Eren is pretty, Armin is pretty, Levi is petite - Mikey from Tokyo Revengers is small and pretty with a Draken hovering around him for contrast. They were very obviously designed for peripheral marketing, the sort of thing that generates hype and draws in a secondary audience to re-market it their own way.

Wanting to make a novel like that - and have a female audience - means having to make sacrifices on your end. On top of it it'll also mean you'll need to decide which type of female audience you want reading your work. Pretty curious how you're going to work this out :blob_cookie:

I mean... If you don't set a gender in your profile and put "handsome" in your title, I'm naturally gonna assume you're a man... >.>

I usually assume the gender on someone's profile is their gender... But if there is none listed, then I just go by avi/title... >.>
Ehhhh? Oh no, I thought I set it to female... but in fact I had set nothing!!! :blob_teary: I'm such a potato, a potato
 

Snusmumriken

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This is where a good editor would come in handy. or an opposite-gender beta-reader.

I find that an outside perspective is more than enough sometimes to disassociate from genders and enjoy characters as individuals instead. I've personally read decent BL stories in the past even though it is not my cup of tea (pun intended @LinXueLian) (and mostly because a lot of authors either spend too much time on visuals or outright have no idea how it works)

To compound on all that I've said earlier about harems - make believable characters first. make them desire things (that are not MC) have them work to pursue their own agendas that don't necessarily align with MC MO. have them act as a human being first and members of harem second.

This is why i was stressing out the historical aspect of harems: people joined them for a specific reason and that reason wasn't love. At least not the type of love a modern-day person associates with.
 
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Sylverius

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I see. So you're put off by the "surrounded by handsome men" thing? Well, hold on to that feeling - because that's what a lot of girls probably feel too when they see titles surrounded by bishoujos. It might also answer your question as to what girls sometimes feel about waifu novels, or harems or shounen titles with pantyshot boobshot fanservice - they're a turn-off for some. It's just that, "yuck, ewww" moment perhaps.
Uhhh no. I'm not off put by the "surrounded by hot men" thing. I rather respect it! I mean, as you mentioned, there's waifus. The only problem was that that's the only thing I could find hahaha
I'm not sure what you mean. I don't find any of the characters in AOT realistic perse. They do have goals and they're driven by their own motives, but "realistic" isn't a word I'd describe the characters with. "Memorable", "raw and emotional" or "entertaining", perhaps, but.... as for realistic, I wouldn't really think so, at least not one hundred percent. There's being broken and angry, and then.... there's this. I find a lot of the motives, expressions and emotions expressed in AOT by the characters rather over the top, for the most part - they're very...... anime. Poignant and poetic perhaps, but... realistic...... that's a little far-reaching, even for me. :sweating_profusely:

These characters and their world are immersive, no doubt. It's quite different from "realistic" imo, which is semantically tied to real life, documented events or an actual time period. I've never met anyone like AOT characters - those traits don't appear to exist in real life too often. They're culturally anime.

Overall, AOT characters aren't bad. They're lovable and enjoyable, and definitely people populating their world, which is fantasy-based with semi-historical elements. They're of course, culturally acclimated to their own world and their surroundings. This makes them feel natural to their setting - so as an audience, it won't feel so jarring when you're consuming the media.

Judging from what you've said so far, I personally feel that the characters you seem to want aren't so much "realistic", but rather, immersive, naturally acclimated and memorable like the ones in AOT - something people can enjoy, remember and talk about fondly. Characters like these are a completely different kettle of fish altogether to write - there's a different way of writing and constructing these people and their worlds. From what I've seen, authors who can successfully do this don't always write these worlds and characters with realism in mind, but rather an understanding of what ticks with a readership, and how to channel emotions of a reader through a narrative.
Ahhh... Sorry, I didn't realize I was using the wrong term HAHAHA

Sorry, I must have switched their meanings in my head, thanks for telling me that again though. But yes, Immersion's the right term, sorry about that. But I think the reason why I confused it is the fact like "what will you do if you were living here?" kind of thing so I must have confused it. I don't know, I suck at my mother tongue, I suck at english, my brain's slow and dumb and all so I easily mistake the most obvious things such as this.

Aha yeah your core audience would young males into isekai of course, what SH is full of :blob_happy: - out of curiosity, how are you marketing to potential female readers though? :blob_hmm: Female characters that female readers can relate to aren't necessarily a draw for us, mind - remember how you mentioned stuff geared towards girls are mostly about being surrounded by hot guys? If you're not into it..... which female reader is going to give your novel the time of their day? Will they even click on it?

In the case of popular titles with large demographics picking them up... AOT had Levi and Erwin's relationship subtext-wise. Bear in mind that the writer knew exactly what he was doing, the same way Kishimoto Masashi did when he planted Iruka on the mom's side of Naruto's wedding and the other male parental figure, Kakashi, on the dad's. Watanabe's editor knew exactly what he was doing when he said, "change Onoda and Toudo into guys". Eren is pretty, Armin is pretty, Levi is petite - Mikey from Tokyo Revengers is small and pretty with a Draken hovering around him for contrast. They were very obviously designed for peripheral marketing, the sort of thing that generates hype and draws in a secondary audience to re-market it their own way.

Wanting to make a novel like that - and have a female audience - means having to make sacrifices on your end. On top of it it'll also mean you'll need to decide which type of female audience you want reading your work. Pretty curious how you're going to work this out :blob_cookie:
Ah yes, "Tokyo Revengers", love that shit. Mikey's a fucking bean doh HAHAHA

So, I did actually have a plan for that. The 2 of the 5 main cast, Kenny and Gran are described as attractive. Gran is described to be the cool short guy that goes full on chuunibyou while Kenny is that one big (near 6-footer while he's only 13 years old. I'm only 5'2" and I'm nearing the legal age:sweating_profusely:) wholesome guy that everyone goes to when you're sad. He's also a bro. The third guy of the main cast, Kuro, who's also the main character of the series, isn't so attractive, but rather average looking in terms of that world. He's not too nice, he can act like an insensitive jerk at most times, but that's because he never learned how to respect people properly in his past life. However, even with that kind of personality, if one of his friends will/is/are in trouble, he will never hesitate to go in head first to save them. That's the summary of personalities I've placed on the 3 guys in the main cast. Not just that though, I do plan on giving out more male side characters, attractive, average and not so much. There are also girls of the main cast for the guys. Levy who is the cool and serious girl while also being very pretty, is Kuro's assistant in battle. They're the main people who deal the melee attacks. Then there's Bea who's the cute, reserved and shy type of girl who's also introverted except for their group. I also plan on adding more girls, attractive, average and not so attractive. NO GENDER'S BIASED ON MY NOVEL.

Like... If I see a waifu or something on the cover of a title or novel... I'd go "whoops, no thanks, not for me!" and immediately hit the back button and look for something else. I believe most guys go "yuck, girly gay shit" when they see hot guys on the cover. They aren't very different from the other, it seems.
1622573006747.png

Me who reads this: ... Yeah, this plot's decent for me.
Again, I don't really particularly mind the "surrounded by hot guys" type of thing, it just doesn't bother me like the other incels who disrespect people's opinions. Although, I am very immature, more so at my age. It's okay for these to exist, as proof, I fucking read this manhwa. Just, not yaoi. As a guy, I'm not the type of guy who reads yaoi. To each their own.

I see pretty often that we get bashed in the anime Disqus comments by guys for the things we like. I remember this guy at work who bashed BL and said that we fujos were invading Pixiv and "dirtying it". A week later he asked me out without a single apology for ragging at my interests.
What a fucking asshole. As an (self-proclaimed) advocate of gender equality, if there's R34 for guys, then there's R34 for girls. Simple as that. I know pixiv, I use it a lot for admiring the fanarts and looking at my bad art. Damn do I suck at art.

I'm part of one right here in SH, invite only. It's appears to be a safe-zone away from guys who'll judge us - girls probably feel freer to say things they want to say.
That's good! At least you can speak to your gals without having to be interrupted by a guy that will call girls inferiors. That's nice to hear really, and I don't mean it in a negative way like "Uhh good! At least we won't have to see your girly shit". I mean it in a way that no one will say that to you. I wanted to clarify it just in case hahaha.

Whaaaaaa
Fangirl stuff are gold to me tbh! I fangirl ALL the time!
1622573807164.png

Me:
1622574032445.png


I also fangirl a lot, only if they're cute (not sexy kind of cute, just purely cute!) hahaha
The only reason why I was a bit mad at the fangirling stuff in the comments obviously made by girls is the fact that they're the only things I can see that's obviously made by girls.

To compound on all that I've said earlier about harems - make believable characters first. make them desire things (that are not MC) have them work to pursue their own agendas that don't necessarily align with MC MO. have them act as a human being first and members of harem second.

This is why i was stressing out the historical aspect of harems: people joined them for a specific reason and that reason wasn't love. At least not the type of love a modern-day person associates with.
Almost forgot to address this, but this was my plan, with harem or none, don't worry. My main goal for the characters since the very beginning was to make them act as humans before ACTUALLY PUTTING THEM IN THE STORY. When I put a character in the story, I put in a lot of effort about them.

Gender, what's their gender? Appearance, are they attractive? Is their apparel practical? Personality, is it "human"? Goals, is it possible? Is it absurd? Powers, is it OP? is It too weak? Name, is it stupid? Signature ability, is it too OP? Is it leaning towards weak? Backstory, is it sad? Is it happy? Does it fall in the context of the novel's world? Point of progression, when and where should I put them in this novel?

This is basically the process or the "behind the scenes" whenever I make a new character. It hurts my head.


So, I hope this clears up some stuff. Again, I'm not disgusted by anything related to the opposite genders (for yaoi, I'm just disturbed. But I don't mind its existence, it's for girls after all). I don't hate fangirling, I do that quite often, especially when I read romance mangas and manhwas, my brother's annoyed at how much I laugh and squeal by how cute they are as a couple and all. Heck, even he does that! There's nothing wrong with that. It's just that it's the only things I can see OBVIOUSLY made by girls. I had to emphasize the word "obviously" because you might get the wrong idea. I'm no guru that can tell if someone's a girl or a guy, as I mentioned, my MC is me, if he's insensitive, so am I. I based my MC as me but more exaggerated. Don't worry, I know how to respect. That's the one thing I was taught before many else.
 
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its alright @LinXueLian XD. sometimes our personality sounds different than what others expect us to look like. had that experience once XD.
 

EternalSunset0

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Dropping by and saying that I'm loving your replies on the thread @LinXueLian

A lot of helpful tips and such, especially in terms of characters in AOT. Made a good case for periphery demographic too, which I think we should all know about. Would be interesting to see more of this in data, as I would feel that most ecchi shows are male-dominated in terms of fanbase, but I feel that a select few of them slip through and get a relatively sizable female fanbase.

And I did see some aggressive behavior from male fans towards BL fans and such. Heck, even I had a bit of that like... ten years ago? When I was in the last few years high school and just started being a weeb, but it also extends to ecchi, yuri, and all the "quirky" sections of anime. Was completely a new shounen fanboy back then. Funny how I ended up completely embracing the fanservice and waifus since then.

Speaking of, just Googled and got this mildly interesting set of data on Reddit. Perfect for those who love to go through tables and numbers like I do

 
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LinXueLian

Always Handsome
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Uhhh no. I'm not off put by the "surrounded by hot men" thing. I rather respect it! I mean, as you mentioned, there's waifus. The only problem was that that's the only thing I could find hahaha
Hmmmmmmmm. If you're actually looking for a title that's aimed towards women that isn't about being surrounded by hot guys, the Heroic Legend of Arslan (anime: Arslan Senki) is one of them. Magi: Labyrinth of Magic (the one with a blue-haired baby Aladdin) is another I can think of might work. There's also Kuroshitsuji, which is mostly about mystery-solving in the Victorian era. Toboso Yana was a BL mangaka, but she swapped her demographics out to create it for a Josei audience, meaning close to zero romance.

If you're looking for a romance title targeted towards girls where the guy doesn't look handsome at all, there's Ore Monogatari.

There you go! Plenty of research material right there. :blob_okay:

Ahhh... Sorry, I didn't realize I was using the wrong term HAHAHA

Sorry, I must have switched their meanings in my head, thanks for telling me that again though. But yes, Immersion's the right term, sorry about that. But I think the reason why I confused it is the fact like "what will you do if you were living here?" kind of thing so I must have confused it. I don't know, I suck at my mother tongue, I suck at english, my brain's slow and dumb and all so I easily mistake the most obvious things such as this.
Nah, it's fine. It's a learning curve after all. "What would you do in this world" is a great question to ask people when it comes to immersion. The best created worlds are those where readers and fans want to create OCs and stick them in to work. Makes the whole thing feel very believable. I remember seeing a lot of people create superhero OCs of their own for Hero Academia!

Dr. Stone's a super super good title too. I totally thought of some stone-age clothing for it, the character and world style is so good, bless :blob_aww:

Ah yes, "Tokyo Revengers", love that shit. Mikey's a fucking bean doh HAHAHA
Ikr? I'm stealing his look since our bangs and hair length are about the same right now. My hair's only half-blonde now and it pisses me off that I can't go outside to bleach it wholly. Ugggh pandemic why you do this to me :blob_teary:

So, I did actually have a plan for that. The 2 of the 5 main cast, Kenny and Gran are described as attractive. Gran is described to be the cool short guy that goes full on chuunibyou while Kenny is that one big (near 6-footer while he's only 13 years old. I'm only 5'2" and I'm nearing the legal age:sweating_profusely:) wholesome guy that everyone goes to when you're sad. He's also a bro. The third guy of the main cast, Kuro, who's also the main character of the series, isn't so attractive, but rather average looking in terms of that world. He's not too nice, he can act like an insensitive jerk at most times, but that's because he never learned how to respect people properly in his past life. However, even with that kind of personality, if one of his friends will/is/are in trouble, he will never hesitate to go in head first to save them. That's the summary of personalities I've placed on the 3 guys in the main cast. Not just that though, I do plan on giving out more male side characters, attractive, average and not so much. There are also girls of the main cast for the guys. Levy who is the cool and serious girl while also being very pretty, is Kuro's assistant in battle. They're the main people who deal the melee attacks. Then there's Bea who's the cute, reserved and shy type of girl who's also introverted except for their group. I also plan on adding more girls, attractive, average and not so attractive. NO GENDER'S BIASED ON MY NOVEL.
Oh hey, you're shorter than me! :blob_happy: I'm 5'3, I'm taller hehehehehe!!!
So if you're adding girls for each guy, then your target periphery is shoujo readers, correct? I suppose you'll just have to try it out to see if it works. Good luck!!

Though, as far as I know, the girls here whom I've met in SH are majority fujos. Cultivation BL novels are pretty huge what with Netflix and all highlighting them - even TGCF's donghua is available on Netflix now under "romance", so we've come here. I'm not sure if there are many girls here reading non-BL works of the OEL (original English language) variety, so there's a chance that you'll need to make some advertisements outside the site to draw them into SH. Idk if that will cost money though... :blob_shock:


Again, I don't really particularly mind the "surrounded by hot guys" type of thing, it just doesn't bother me like the other incels who disrespect people's opinions. Although, I am very immature, more so at my age. It's okay for these to exist, as proof, I fucking read this manhwa. Just, not yaoi. As a guy, I'm not the type of guy who reads yaoi. To each their own.
Lol incels be threatened by 2D guys

Nah, it's cool. Straight hot-blooded guys mostly gonna be weirded out by yaoi. Same as most straight hot-blooded women getting weirded out by yuri lol. Some in the middle, some don't mind! Each to their own, like you say~

What a fucking asshole. As an (self-proclaimed) advocate of gender equality, if there's R34 for guys, then there's R34 for girls. Simple as that. I know pixiv, I use it a lot for admiring the fanarts and looking at my bad art. Damn do I suck at art.
Ikr???? Dude did end up with an anti-feminist who hated yaoi with her guts. Proof right there that there's someone for everyone, bless their hearts. The hilarious thing was that he blamed me for turning him down because of... get this, his RACE. Mofo pulled a "you're racist" card to make me look bad. Wtf forever LOL

He told me to hush it up but until today it's a story I fondly tell my friends over tea and biscuits. Good tea LOL :blob_happy: I will always fondly remember this soldier, he's made my life quite colourful :blob_happy::blob_happy::blob_happy:

"Uhh good! At least we won't have to see your girly shit". I mean it in a way that no one will say that to you. I wanted to clarify it just in case hahaha.
Ehhh I've actually seen on Webnovel comments in a BL novel saying, "thanks for tagging this as yaoi so we know to avoid it" :blob_happy: I'm pretty sure we're annoying to many guys to a degree, but heck, free Internet. Bros just gotta hafta share it with us dirty ladies. We're here to stayyyy :blob_shade:

The only reason why I was a bit mad at the fangirling stuff in the comments obviously made by girls is the fact that they're the only things I can see that's obviously made by girls.
Y'know, I don't see that as often in some of the titles I read and watch. The comments for the novel, "I Have Medicine", sort of look like this:

Oh no! I’m caught up. 🙁

This whole arc shows how valuable pharmacists are, honestly. Granted that Gu Zuo is far above the norm in terms of ability, but no martial artists could survive this path without either a pharmacist along to shove pills down their throat as they fight or the luck to be able to take out their gigantic stockpile of pills before the creatures or people in their surroundings destroy them. A second of delay is deadly!

Thanks for your hard work translating!

This one in the TGCF donghua:
"That tasteless piece of shit" got one of the most character development in the entire series and i'm hella looking forward to seeing him lol.

sigh. we finally got through the first half of book one. it'd be so golden if they could do the other half too...but if not i guess i'll make peace that this feels somewhat complete. besides hua cheng disappearing in thin air anyways. not like xie lian can't call him back though

well i was eyeing that teaser for quite some time after billi/liners posted it and ooh did they deliver. if/when they continue i know it'll be good

They're definitely made by girls - we be fujos gaggling together. Let's not forget my giant comments in other people's AO3 fics.... :blob_shock: Maybe I'm just noisy....

I've personally read decent BL stories in the past even though it is not my cup of tea (pun intended @LinXueLian) (and mostly because a lot of authors either spend too much time on visuals or outright have no idea how it works)
You're not wrong when you say a lot of BL authors don't always write it well - the same can be said for all genres featuring amateur writers, frankly speaking. In all cases, whether we're writing BL or not, it's still very important to know how a target demographic works, and how to deliver these things to them. I'm more of a consumer than a producer - this makes me extremely fussy about the BLs that I consume too.

You won't get fujos to support your work if you just slapped two guys together nilly-willy. It doesn't work like that. We can't just rely on a character's looks, man, you gotta have substance too. There are a lot of BL titles I can't stomach either.

But when I do find something I like, whoo boy, waterfall of gushing LOL, I've written over 500 words in a single comment for a story before, I can't shut up :blob_happy: TOO GOOD

its alright @LinXueLian XD. sometimes our personality sounds different than what others expect us to look like. had that experience once XD.
I'm honestly curious now as how everyone thinks I look and sound

I hope it's like this: :blob_aww::blob_aww::blob_aww:
1622631284593.jpeg



Dropping by and saying that I'm loving your replies on the thread @LinXueLian

A lot of helpful tips and such, especially in terms of characters in AOT. Made a good case for periphery demographic too, which I think we should all know about. Would be interesting to see more of this in data, as I would feel that most ecchi shows are male-dominated in terms of fanbase, but I feel that a select few of them slip through and get a relatively sizable female fanbase.
Ayyyy thanks! Was hoping they could be a bit helpful :blob_aww:

Unfortunately, it's like you said - it's not easy to find data about it. A lot of the titles that take off have very experienced editors. I remember hearing from an anime that before even the storyboarding cycle or process is started, character designs and profiles need to be approved first. Therefore, your editor has to be really experienced in the market, and also quite good at handling new markets.

Ecchi shows can indeed get a sizable female fanbase. A few I can think of is That Time I Got Reincarnated As A Slime, and Seven Deadly Sins (that one with the blond MC) - two much older titles called Air Gear and GetBackers were pretty big too. They're extremely ecchi, targeted towards young males, but I know a lot of girls who love them.

Each of these had their own "winning formula" with a female fanbase. As far as I know, they weren't just drawing via visuals either. I've watched them almost to their entirety.

And I did see some aggressive behavior from male fans towards BL fans and such. Heck, even I had a bit of that like... ten years ago? When I was in the last few years high school and just started being a weeb, but it also extends to ecchi, yuri, and all the "quirky" sections of anime. Was completely a new shounen fanboy back then. Funny how I ended up completely embracing the fanservice and waifus since then.
Yeeeeah the Internet and anime has become mainstream, so we get a lot of flak everywhere for our quirky animu fan aspects

More females are watching anime now, which also means guys beginning to see a shared space. It just takes them a bit of getting used to, really. While I do see a lot of hate for BL by guys, I also see a lot of guys fighting off other guys for hating on it. I was at a hentai site looking up stuff when I saw a BL title I recognize pop up. In the comments were a lot of guys going, "discusting yaoi" but there were also a lot of guys who got mad that they wrote that, saying all spaces should be shared and every deviant should be welcome.

The types who are welcoming make these spaces so much more warmer. :blob_melt: So I don't think it's so bad.
 
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Aetheo

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Okay so, to be clear: I'm NB, not a girl, and poly to begin with (with experience in actual poly relationships, so that's an actual bias talking, not a theoretical), but my opinion? The primary driving factor in poly or "harem"-style stories is that you need commitment, clarity/communication, and trust between all the parties involved for it to be nice. If all those factors are there? I don't see why not! Not that that's the norm, mind you; it's for those reasons that the vast majority of harem stories very, very quickly send me off somewhat-to-very disgusted with the author.

People's understanding of poly/harems are often (and mistakenly, if they want something that lasts at all) driven entirely by the sexual/"illicit" thrill of it, and that's just not very interesting whatsoever. The actual draw is, and always has been, having a set of fulfilling romantic relationships of multiple different styles and engagements unique to the people they're between. Personally, I don't experience jealousy at all (which some people obviously think means you're less committed to your partner, for reasons I can't understand- if you want your partner to be happy, and they're both happy with you and happy with someone else at the same time, what exactly is the problem here?) but working through that can be interesting.

I guess this is a place where I can say something about Midnight Moonlight (on royalroad or Neovel), my absolute favorite story that I can never recommend or talk about... It's a really good example of how poly relationships can feel and function, even if it doesn't have the longer timescales. The main character is a woman, and she gets in relationships with several other people of both the masculine and feminine persuasions, and it's all discussed and clear with the characters involved in an incredibly healthy way, given everything that's going on around them (some of the people in relationships with the main character are also in relationships with each other, too, which is something worth considering).

Essentially, so long as you actually spend the time to set up each relationship with its own weight, strengths, weaknesses, draws and problems, as well as how that relationship affect the other relationships around it, it's not an issue! But if you go into "collect-em-all" mode or forget/neglect to develop a character, it's no longer worth it. That said, you're inherently working against a well-earned, if not necessarily entirely deserved, reputation here. Many women may not even be willing to give the stories a shot, even if in real life they're more open to polyamory, explicitly because there's so much garbage.

The again... it wouldn't scare away your probably primary core audience, I'd suggest throwing a guy or two at your guy just for fun. Nothing quite offsets your F/F like a good M/M for a few pages to scare off the annoying ones. So, my advice may be useful to a good character or relationship, but maybe not so much to a marketable story :blob_teehee::sweating_profusely:

Edit: and because I'm not sure it was clear: The people talking about "the members of the harem won't get along"? They're talking BS. People in non-mono relationships need to at least mostly get along with the metas (metamour, aka the poly term for person-who-is-dating-the-person-you're-dating-but-who-you-are-not-dating) for it to be anywhere near healthy, and that's really not all that hard to do! Like I opened with; commitment, communication, and trust.
 
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bigbear51

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I'm sure plenty of comments will have useful insight. It's not like the genre isn't obviously labeled to be targeted towards one specific gender or anything.
 

Sylverius

Old name: Sylphias
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So uhh I won't be able to reply for about 2 weeks or so. My PC is being cleaned, and this will be a good time to take a break for a while. Still, leave your replies here! I'll answer literally all of them if I have the words to do so, I can't really reply to all of them so uhhh yeah. I don't know what else to say hahaha
 

COLOC_Kid

morphing-state
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350
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if a women is bi she will be fine more fun. if she is straight, heck no, she is not sleeping with other girls it's embarrassing. A reverse harem is diffrent bi ok with it not the best maybe another female should be there. Straight absolute heaven. though some may find it uncomfortable to provide cohesive attention to each.
 

sabazurc

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Do you have any sexual attractions to Astolfo?
Yes :D
if a women is bi she will be fine more fun. if she is straight, heck no, she is not sleeping with other girls it's embarrassing. A reverse harem is diffrent bi ok with it not the best maybe another female should be there. Straight absolute heaven. though some may find it uncomfortable to provide cohesive attention to each.
I dislike reverse harem more than actual harem. The guy who is ok with his girlfriend sleeping around disgusts me much more...maybe because I am a guy myself. I've heard and met such people and often they were...I do not know...pathetic is the word I guess. If she is only with one guy and others are merely trying to win her heart it's ok for me. I know I'm biased but I do not want to lie, that's how I feel.
 
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chaoticflesh

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This is a question I've been curious about. You see, I like making my characters more "human". This was because I was inspired by "Attack on Titan". Really good show, but don't watch it because the ending's utter Dogshit. Back on the topic, I want the characters to be "Human". I do read some stupid stories, these stories are basically about how "the MC is super OP oh wow he gets those puss-puss for free oh EZ, this girl likes me? Well I didn't know still wanna suck my D?" type of shit. It hurts, but it's very rare to come across really good stories. So, I decided, "Fuck it, why not make my own good story (self-proclaimed)?". As I took in many inspirations, stories like "Berserk", "Attack on Titan", "Tensura", "Beginning after the End", "Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood", "BNHA", "Mushoku Tensei", "Konosuba" and... SO MUCH MORE, that I saw one similarity between the majority of them... They included Harems. And they're in medieval times. With magic. Now, this is a huge problem in the story I'm trying to write. Harems, though they were in medieval times and a dream of many guys, isn't so fair with my story. I, for one, like being fair with guys and girls. I want it to be an equal footing, however, though I have this kind of vision, I want to see your opinions.

Harems are, though a dream for many guys, is a bit weird. If you, the lover or the main girl of the guy, suddenly brings home about 10 other girls, would you be okay with it? Or, for the guys out there, if your girl were to suddenly bring out 10 guys to your home, would you be okay with it?

I wanna see your opinions on this, and depending on your opinions, I might change up the future part of the story. Why? Well, because I'm on a 50/50 stand with this.
I would contest the notion that harems are a necessary component of popular stories. There are multiple highly popular stories without any. I'll also note that the series you're talking about tend to just have a bunch of girls crushing on the same guy, not actually dating him. Many of those popular series only have the guy hook up with one of the girls in the end or even none of them.

That said if you do decide to go the harem route, it is better if everyone involved is likable and have their own things going on. And the guy (I'm assuming you're going to write a guy at the center) should be just as desirable as the girls. Ideally he should be hot in some way and have a personality that's more than just being nice. If you want to attract girls you absolutely should understand what they like in guys. Try studying the male leads in series popular with girls (just study those series period if you want a broad audience). Also talk with girls about what they like in male characters. People watching in comment sections like another of the girls here suggested is a good idea too. Now that I'm done with the marketing advice I'll go into what I personally prefer as a bisexual transfeminine person who is open to poly.

I agree with the people saying that a fully polyamorus relationship is a decent option (it's what I would personally prefer in a story). A setup where at least some of the members are dating each other adds extra life to the romantic aspect since the love interests' romantic lives don't just revolve around the one person. Even more so if at least one person is dating someone who isn't dating the main character.

Poly relationships can take many shapes and the more people involved, the more likely things are to take on some very interesting shapes. Others have already covered this very well.
 

Sylverius

Old name: Sylphias
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*Me about to type this in my potato phone*

Oh boy

That said if you do decide to go the harem route, it is better if everyone involved is likable and have their own things going on.
True

Ideally he should be hot in some way and have a personality that's more than just being nice.
So uhh about this, my male lead isn't hot, just average looking without even a sense of fashion. About his personality, he's very shameless, not giving a damn if people think that the way he talks is rude (he knows how to be respectful when necessary), the way he walks is weird, and basically everything about him is wrong, he won't give a fuck. But, he knows when to be kind, for example, when he's with his friends. Though a bit of a jerk, he's still kind to them and even looks out for them. He's also fond of children, being able to become the brother figure of multiple children in his past life (just in case, yes, my story is an isekai). When someone that he loves has their life on the line or are in genuine trouble, he will always charge in head first like a missile coming for dat ass. He won't care if his life is in danger because of his actions, but he will only care about his friend's safety. He's also quite immature, but that progresses slowly throughout the whole novel. What do you think about this type of character though?

If you want to attract girls you absolutely should understand what they like in guys.
Aight, lemme try that out by opening a thread.


People watching in comment sections like another of the girls here suggested is a good idea too.
Sadly, my novel isn't that quite famous nor does it have too much comments. There's barely anything aside from the fact that they like the novel which I appreciate.


I agree with the people saying that a fully polyamorus relationship is a decent option (it's what I would personally prefer in a story). A setup where at least some of the members are dating each other adds extra life to the romantic aspect since the love interests' romantic lives don't just revolve around the one person. Even more so if at least one person is dating someone who isn't dating the main character.

Poly relationships can take many shapes and the more people involved, the more likely things are to take on some very interesting shapes. Others have already covered this very well.
Alright then, I'll note that comment.

It's really hard to type in this phone of mine, so I'll leave it as a short note (is it though?).
 

UniUrchin

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Forget what the normies want. Write the story you want to read.
I kind of agree with this statement.
Hmmm. In this case it'd be pretty challenging. In all honesty, realism in fiction's very tricky, especially when it comes to harem stories. The rest here seem to have contrasted polyamory with harems, and they do have a point. They're not necessarily the same thing, after all - for harems, if you do want a sense of realism in, you can try giving older texts like Yang Gui Fei a look to get a gist of it, or dig through historical articles. It's really because harems tend to place a woman in a situation where the man is "in charge" or the "lord" in a house or relationship. In this case, in a harem, it's a lot more about power and politics when it comes to how the women work around with things.

In the case of realistic harems, it's not about the female characters having personalities that are realistic but more of realistic choices, coping and mindset. I think that's what folk here are calling out regarding harem stories. Realistic harems would likely require intense historical research. It's not easy, and most readers might give up reading halfway because it's pretty convoluted, leading to a LOT of text just trying to explain the situation.

In short, it has a higher chance of the story becoming, well, boring.
I really like this comment.

Polyamory aside, one thing to keep in mind about many historical relationships if that most people did not marry out of love. Marriages born out of a love are mostly a modern notion, and many of these historical harems were born out of functional purpose rather than romance. I think a majority of people probably find harems (or reverse harems) unromantic from the perspective of peripheral members.

I think if "realism" is your focus, I think it's important to keep in mind that relationships in the real world are filled with conflict and turmoil. Around half of American relationships end in divorce, and most people experience more breakups than 'successful' relationships. In a harem or polyamorous relationship, you should expect that drama will be even more frequent. People get upset, and most people already struggle to keep a monogamous relationship intact.

If you're working with the idea that everyone in a harem will be always 'happy', 'lovey-dovey', romantic, and harmonious, I think you've already fallen out of the realistic picture by default.

I like love triangles (which isn't necessary a harem), so in some senses I can sometimes relate to the perspective of 'harem members' who all like the same person. However, I think a critical thing to realize is that for me, love triangles are filled with pain, and I like reading tragedies and suffering. If you take that element of pain, envy, and fragile self-esteem away, the characters become much more superficial and not believable to me.
 

K5Rakitan

Level 34 👪 💍 Pronouns: she/whore ♀
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I kind of agree with this statement.

I really like this comment.

Polyamory aside, one thing to keep in mind about many historical relationships if that most people did not marry out of love. Marriages born out of a love are mostly a modern notion, and many of these historical harems were born out of functional purpose rather than romance. I think a majority of people probably find harems (or reverse harems) unromantic from the perspective of peripheral members.

I think if "realism" is your focus, I think it's important to keep in mind that relationships in the real world are filled with conflict and turmoil. Around half of American relationships end in divorce, and most people experience more breakups than 'successful' relationships. In a harem or polyamorous relationship, you should expect that drama will be even more frequent. People get upset, and most people already struggle to keep a monogamous relationship intact.

If you're working with the idea that everyone in a harem will be always 'happy', 'lovey-dovey', romantic, and harmonious, I think you've already fallen out of the realistic picture by default.

I like love triangles (which isn't necessary a harem), so in some senses I can sometimes relate to the perspective of 'harem members' who all like the same person. However, I think a critical thing to realize is that for me, love triangles are filled with pain, and I like reading tragedies and suffering. If you take that element of pain, envy, and fragile self-esteem away, the characters become much more superficial and not believable to me.
I've had almost as many breakups as I've had relationships, and breakups are not a bad thing!
 

BenJepheneT

Light Up Gold - Parquet Courts
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Dropping by and saying that I'm loving your replies on the thread @LinXueLian

A lot of helpful tips and such, especially in terms of characters in AOT. Made a good case for periphery demographic too, which I think we should all know about. Would be interesting to see more of this in data, as I would feel that most ecchi shows are male-dominated in terms of fanbase, but I feel that a select few of them slip through and get a relatively sizable female fanbase.

And I did see some aggressive behavior from male fans towards BL fans and such. Heck, even I had a bit of that like... ten years ago? When I was in the last few years high school and just started being a weeb, but it also extends to ecchi, yuri, and all the "quirky" sections of anime. Was completely a new shounen fanboy back then. Funny how I ended up completely embracing the fanservice and waifus since then.

Speaking of, just Googled and got this mildly interesting set of data on Reddit. Perfect for those who love to go through tables and numbers like I do

FUCK YEAH, TOP 1 is CARS

SHIGENO FTW
 

Sylverius

Old name: Sylphias
Joined
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Messages
216
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If you're working with the idea that everyone in a harem will be always 'happy', 'lovey-dovey', romantic, and harmonious, I think you've already fallen out of the realistic picture by default.
Question with this one, what if it's just like, for example, a normal couple's relationship (1girl 1boy) and they just really love one another and both are really harmonious. Is that realistic? I don't really know things about relationships other than things shown in movies and all of that.
I like reading tragedies and suffering.
I aim for realism in a fantasy world, you will see tragedies and sufferings at some points in my novel. If you plan to read it doh.
Polyamory aside, one thing to keep in mind about many historical relationships if that most people did not marry out of love. Marriages born out of a love are mostly a modern notion, and many of these historical harems were born out of functional purpose rather than romance. I think a majority of people probably find harems (or reverse harems) unromantic from the perspective of peripheral members.
I do see that on most of the comments here, but I'll continue to note it.
Speaking of, just Googled and got this mildly interesting set of data on Reddit. Perfect for those who love to go through tables and numbers like I do

Well ain't this stupid... How come I never checked this before?!
 

Snusmumriken

Vagabond and traveller
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Question with this one, what if it's just like, for example, a normal couple's relationship (1girl 1boy) and they just really love one another and both are really harmonious. Is that realistic? I don't really know things about relationships other than things shown in movies and all of that.
That is a preferred outcome. But in the beginning, all relationships not only can but should have rocky situations - you are dealing with two recent strangers deciding to be together from now on. Even though both want it - both still have their own characters and personal desires that might and most commonly will come at odds with each other.

Think of a family - especially relationships between parents and children - even if they were harmonious there are issues popping up because children develop personalities and during that development come at odds with the established personalities of their parents.

a truly harmonious relationship will have arguments and bickering - what actually makes it harmonious is when the pair don't try to win an argument against their spouse but overcome the challenge together. On the other side, a relationship without any issues is usually a relationship without love or emotions since they don't care enough to initiate arguments or stand their ground.
 
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