How do you feel about betrayal?

TheEldritchGod

A Cloud Of Pure Spite And Eyes
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
2,807
Points
153
So I had an idea where a close friend to the MC was actually setting them up the whole time, but I'm starting to get cold feet because I'm not sure if I set it up enough.

I have a feeling it'll blind side everyone and come across like a Ryan Johnson movie.

I expect the character to have a change of heart and switch sides back to team MC, but I'm worried it'll ruin the world building. Trusting the author not to lie to you is important. I feel like this set up will just make people go, "Well, if that character is a backstabbing douchebag, then anyone can be at any time. How can I trust any character?"

Dramatic tension says yes, my heart says, "too far".

What are your thoughts about the MC's close friend/lover being revealed a traitor all along?
 

Echimera

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 29, 2021
Messages
271
Points
103
It can work really well, including a redemption arc afterwards.
But it requires that the motivation of the friend is explored properly, starting with the innitial (potentially fake) friendship, the betrayal and the following guilt and the motivation to change.

Even more so than other sitiuations, consistency is very important and can make the difference between a standout character the readers will love and a character that can break a story.
 

Keerith

Active member
Joined
Sep 10, 2021
Messages
1
Points
43
I'm usually willing to give the author a lot of suspension of disbelief when I am enjoying a story, but it still needs to be internally consistent I suppose. Betrayal-for-the-sake-of-Drama is a quick way to deplete a good impression, but if there are logical reasons for it it's easier to swallow. Maybe stop just before the big backstab, show some of the reasons why this character has been driven to do it and some of the things they have done, then let it rip. When done well, it'll leave a lasting mark. xD
 

JayDirex

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 5, 2019
Messages
582
Points
133
I'm usually willing to give the author a lot of suspension of disbelief when I am enjoying a story, but it still needs to be internally consistent I suppose. Betrayal-for-the-sake-of-Drama is a quick way to deplete a good impression, but if there are logical reasons for it it's easier to swallow. Maybe stop just before the big backstab, show some of the reasons why this character has been driven to do it and some of the things they have done, then let it rip. When done well, it'll leave a lasting mark. xD
Exactly ^ !

@TheEldritchGod Eldritch, Don't blindside the reader like that. What you want is the reader to be also sympathetic to the friend, while also dropping hints as to why the friend will betray the MC. But the point is to get the reader also on the side of the friend, with more lead up and backstory, so that the reader can feel conflicted when the betrayal happens. 😈

But if you blindside them, as Keerith so eloquently put it:

"Betrayal-for-the-sake-of-Drama is a quick way to deplete a good impression."
 

J_Chemist

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2022
Messages
1,817
Points
128
Nah, if it fits the character and you can set it up properly within your plot, send it. Don't let your feelings dictate how reality spins in the novel. It comes off as plot armor and you forcing the characters to fit a certain mold just because you yourself are too scared to take that final step.

It's honestly really boring and disappointing when I read stories with that kind of outcome. You've set all the bricks in place, the character screams backstabber, and yet you do nothing with it and it's a waste of time. As a reader, I definitely would make a mental note of it. But that's just me.

Apologies if this whole deal sounds aggressive. I'm currently cracked up on pre-workout and bucked up pump, but if you aren't going to use it, I recommend changing the character.

Also, no redemption arc is needed. At least I don't think so. It's super cheesy to see in every story how all the bad guys or "friends turned bad" somehow become/return to being good guys. Nah. Stick to it. If he's backstabbed the MC, punish them. No free candy. Free candy is boring and leaves no lesson to be made.
 

TheEldritchGod

A Cloud Of Pure Spite And Eyes
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
2,807
Points
153
Will their betrayal ever be explained in a sympathetic way?
I was figuring the betrayal was for "the cause" and they came to regret it thinking that being an asshole even for the cause was wrong. The cause was going to be explained as steel manned as possible.
 

J_Chemist

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2022
Messages
1,817
Points
128
I was figuring the betrayal was for "the cause" and they came to regret it thinking that being an asshole even for the cause was wrong. The cause was going to be explained as steel manned as possible.
I like this. It sounds like your character has some inner disdain for the MC that's been building but their heart isn't necessarily in a bad place. Maybe it's less betrayal and more a misguidance or lack of understanding of their own feelings.

These are both traits that can be recovered from. Definitely send that. It'll make them a stronger support character later on in your story if they have a presence afterwards.
 

J_Chemist

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 17, 2022
Messages
1,817
Points
128
That's the problem. I'm not sure I did make it obvious, or... at all. I think I may have been too subtle.
If you've been subtle about it than that means you have time to further develop. Continue to build, don't rush it, and let it fester until it's more noticeable and workable. Maybe attach the betrayal to a plot point later on and build on the tools said character has available. It'll make his betrayal more substantial and carry more weight that might be able to affect not just the MC but multiple members of your cast.
 

georgelee5786

2024 Shovel Duel Champion
Joined
Mar 6, 2022
Messages
3,214
Points
183
I like it when they betray them if it is set up right, but I dislike when the author tries to spin it around to say "They were just manipulated" or something. If a side character commits betrayal, then they stay that way, imo
 

Paul_Tromba

Sleep deprived mess of a published author
Joined
Jan 29, 2020
Messages
4,171
Points
183
The thing is that betrayals have to happen naturally. If a character is fleshed out and could be a candidate for betrayal under the right circumstance then go for it. If the character has absolutely no reason to betray the MC then it isn't worth it, they aren't a good candidate for a betrayal. Second thing is that betrayals work best when there is an emotional impact from the betrayal. For example, When Frodo gave in at the last moment, if Samwise Gamgee betrayed Frodo and pushed him with the ring into Mt. Doom to save everyone else would be a massive shock with a major impact. He has a reason for the greater good to do so but would be so hurt over killing his best friend that everyone, even the readers would be torn.
 

NotaNuffian

This does spark joy.
Joined
Nov 26, 2019
Messages
3,626
Points
183
You know, I always wanted to write a story where the system cultivates the MC gradually and then harvest him nearing the end of the story.

Soul of Negary did it at the start of the chapter and it felt... meh. The Man on top of the Food Chain by Bear Wolf Dog did a similar premise but the betrayal came in the middle of the story. It might be slightly out of nowhere but still it was fun, the demon isn't a sympathetic character and MC is a dellusional bastard, they go together hand in hand. Then the author tried to pull it again in his second book as the climax of the end and... it is shit.

There are reasons why I stopped reading to the end of CN stories; they know how to pick it up but they sure can't put it down.

Also, the premise of making a sympathetic betrayer feels cheap, yes I understand it is to let the readers not feel alienated. But if you can pull an Aizen off, that shit will be good (and I mean pre Hogyoku Aizen).
 

K5Rakitan

Level 34 👪 💍 Pronouns: she/whore ♀
Joined
Apr 15, 2020
Messages
8,162
Points
233
I think it sucks, but since it makes the story interesting, I would rather it be an accidental betrayal or the friend was framed for it or something.
 

Cipiteca396

🌺🌑🐉🪶 Anxiety Overdrive
Joined
Jun 6, 2021
Messages
2,138
Points
153
My main problem with betrayal is that it's a direct blow against the suspension of disbelief. When it happens, the reader will (un)consciously look back at everything that's happened and reconsider everything.

If there wasn't enough evidence of the character's treachery, the reader will call foul: "How could anyone possibly act that well, with such sincerity? This must be an asspull or a clone or any number of other plot devices."

If there was too much evidence, the reader will wonder why the MC didn't notice. "Are they stupid? How could they not have noticed? I would have killed that guy in chapter 12."

When it's done well, it still leaves a bitter feeling. Tragedy and such. I rather liked how Master of Monsters did it though. It tied into a major theme of the story, so that's probably why.

In your case... I'd say write what you want to write. If the idea of treachery no longer appeals to you, then you might just have the character feel the same way. Not everyone has what it takes to stick it to their friends. If you really, really want the character to go through with it, then trust in the story.
 

Iamnotabot

Bot of [Envy]
Joined
Jun 1, 2022
Messages
667
Points
108
My question is : will that person get rapped aftter the betrayal.
 

CupcakeNinja

Pervert Supreme
Joined
Jan 1, 2019
Messages
3,066
Points
183
So I had an idea where a close friend to the MC was actually setting them up the whole time, but I'm starting to get cold feet because I'm not sure if I set it up enough.

I have a feeling it'll blind side everyone and come across like a Ryan Johnson movie.

I expect the character to have a change of heart and switch sides back to team MC, but I'm worried it'll ruin the world building. Trusting the author not to lie to you is important. I feel like this set up will just make people go, "Well, if that character is a backstabbing douchebag, then anyone can be at any time. How can I trust any character?"

Dramatic tension says yes, my heart says, "too far".

What are your thoughts about the MC's close friend/lover being revealed a traitor all along?
leave the MC so traumatized he'll never be able to feel trust or love again.
Until, that is, a big tiddy milf squeezes his cock between her ass cheeks,

The fastest way out of a depressive state is, after all, having your knob absolutely slobbered on by a comely maiden
 

TheOneWho

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 20, 2019
Messages
110
Points
103
In my opinion, as long as it's in character or makes sense than its fine. I hate when betrayal is only used for drama.
 

Ilikewaterkusa

You have to take out their families...
Joined
May 21, 2021
Messages
2,373
Points
153
So I had an idea where a close friend to the MC was actually setting them up the whole time, but I'm starting to get cold feet because I'm not sure if I set it up enough.

I have a feeling it'll blind side everyone and come across like a Ryan Johnson movie.

I expect the character to have a change of heart and switch sides back to team MC, but I'm worried it'll ruin the world building. Trusting the author not to lie to you is important. I feel like this set up will just make people go, "Well, if that character is a backstabbing douchebag, then anyone can be at any time. How can I trust any character?"

Dramatic tension says yes, my heart says, "too far".

What are your thoughts about the MC's close friend/lover being revealed a traitor all along?
based
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2022-12-11 18.59.23.png
    Screenshot 2022-12-11 18.59.23.png
    177.3 KB · Views: 20
Top