How much did you pander to the audience?

[NotaNuffian]

Original Vampire (CN) just ended yesterday and the ending is expectedly disappointing. The thing had been a gentle lowering into the grave since a month ago with Colin too OP even until the last fight against the supposed "big bad".

Then the afterwords of the author made me want to post this thread. Tldr, author pandered to the readers by killing off some important antagonists along the way and somehow screwed up his plot so badly that the work is rushed to its finale.

Onr example being a mercenary's son who killed off his father, in the first ten chapters he was foreshadowed to have a major effect on the latter part of the plot. He then got killed off unceremoniously and I was more confused than disappointed by his sudden death so early in the work. The second example is the eastern duke's younger son who is a vile schemer dying in Colin's hands before he can be a real problem, while I do find his death gratifying cuz he is annoying af, I also lament a bit about the lost potential of a cockroach villain.

Then of course there is the issue of the author moonlighting as an author and got a bunch of health issues popping up so he had to drop the work fast.

My question is, how much do you as an author listens to the whims of your readers, so much so that it irreversibly screw with your planned plot?

And yes, my main objective of the question is for money. Specifically, how much would you write what you want and how much would you write for the readers' (and subsequently payers') sake. Because writing is a free* hobby that can pay the bills if used properly. I am not using it properly. T_T

*Assuming that you have not paid for artworks, either because you are a good artist as well (in that case, bless you and damn you) , you go for the free stuff online or just go NIP.

 

[ForestDweller]

I should've pandered to make my work less depressing.

 

[EternalSunset0]

My question is, how much do you as an author listens to the whims of your readers, so much so that it irreversibly screw with your planned plot?

And yes, my main objective of the question is for money. Specifically, how much would you write what you want and how much would you write for the readers' (and subsequently payers') sake. Because writing is a free* hobby that can pay the bills if used properly. I am not using it properly. T_T

*Assuming that you have not paid for artworks, either because you are a good artist as well (in that case, bless you and damn you) , you go for the free stuff online or just go NIP.

I have like a dozen active readers, so there's not much to pander to

Although I have joked a bit with some of them about killing off characters they hate or considered rewriting stuff they didn't like, so there's that. Never really gone through with either, though. When it comes to my beta reader, however, I try to come up with a compromise in case we have differing ways on how the plot should go.

For money matters, I'm in no position to give advice because it hasn't crossed my mind. But of course, if opportunity comes for me to monetize my work, I'll do it, but as an outsider to the whole monetized writing thing, I chalk up being able to successfully monetize your work more as a product of you having a good enough work in its own right and mostly being at the right place at the right time.

Of course, knowing how to go at the monetizing thing properly is also a thing, since we do have a handful of monetized writers here, and it's more of they also know "how to do it" in the same way as knowing the proper form when shooting a basketball or the right way to turn and move your arms and legs when swimming.

I'm of the belief that readers should just stay for the ride instead of meddling with major plot points, however. Like it's ok to react or want something to happen, but to threaten an author to drop their subscription just because you refuse to kowtow to the plot they wanted is nothing short of immature.

 

[TotallyHuman]

There are two examples I know of, where the author probably (as I read it way after the novels were completed) didn't pander to the audience much, but I imagine (based on how long and how high quality they were. Because this kind of novel takes time and dedication, and I hardly believe that the author would put so much work into it if it didn't bring them some profit, and even if they were willing like hell do I believe they could write so well in-between other things) they were pretty popular.
One is worm, where protagonist is consistently bullied, worn down, trampled upon and rarely gets to catch a breath.
The other is the ancestor of our sect isn't acting like an elder, which is way too fucking long, and the antagonists consistently outsmart, outperform and outluck the protagonist while doing some things that made me as a reader bite my nails in frustration a few times.

 

[Monaka]

Original Vampire (CN) just ended yesterday and the ending is expectedly disappointing. The thing had been a gentle lowering into the grave since a month ago with Colin too OP even until the last fight against the supposed "big bad".

Then the afterwords of the author made me want to post this thread. Tldr, author pandered to the readers by killing off some important antagonists along the way and somehow screwed up his plot so badly that the work is rushed to its finale.

Onr example being a mercenary's son who killed off his father, in the first ten chapters he was foreshadowed to have a major effect on the latter part of the plot. He then got killed off unceremoniously and I was more confused than disappointed by his sudden death so early in the work. The second example is the eastern duke's younger son who is a vile schemer dying in Colin's hands before he can be a real problem, while I do find his death gratifying cuz he is annoying af, I also lament a bit about the lost potential of a cockroach villain.

Then of course there is the issue of the author moonlighting as an author and got a bunch of health issues popping up so he had to drop the work fast.

My question is, how much do you as an author listens to the whims of your readers, so much so that it irreversibly screw with your planned plot?

And yes, my main objective of the question is for money. Specifically, how much would you write what you want and how much would you write for the readers' (and subsequently payers') sake. Because writing is a free* hobby that can pay the bills if used properly. I am not using it properly. T_T

*Assuming that you have not paid for artworks, either because you are a good artist as well (in that case, bless you and damn you) , you go for the free stuff online or just go NIP.

I have seen far too many story with potentials ruined because the authors listened to the whims of their reader so much they turned into a choose your own interactive story knockoff.

It's hard to find a delicate balance between pandering your audience while still maintaining control of your story's direction, but the end result won't disappoint. I don't have to worry about that since I have no readers, though.

 

[Ai-chan]

If Ai-chan's readers want the skirt to be blue, then it will be fucking blue!
If the readers want the horse to have a purple ass and sings Californication, it will fucking happen!
If Ai-chan's readers just want some flavour that doesn't change the plot much or if the plot itself has some leeway for changes, Ai-chan would oblige them.

The problem is, most readers do not say anything, so there's nothing to pander to.

 

[ArcadiaBlade]

Well, its not like readers are secretly wizards, capable of causing some mysterious powers out of nowhere, capable of cutting off someone's internet and power out of their whims.

Oh wait, I fucking experience that first-hand!

I didn't like to pander to my readers, thinking that my ideas where just good enough to get them interested, even earning money from the ideas I made, which is good enough to invest into my works.

While working on the next chapter for the novel, the powerline got cut off out of nowhere which I didn't mind since I got used to it. Till I realize that my internet was also cut off for like 3-5 days, only to come back with negative reviews. Then, I only realize that in that one fucking review, it was also the moment the same time my power went offline did I realize that the reader must've summoned Zeus from the skies and bolted both the radio tower and the powerline which I now fearfully realize how much authors pander to their readers, only those who have good luck can be radical enough to not pander to their readers.

I already have a negative point in luck, why must you make me suffer like this. I don't even like to write the novels because I'm too afraid that it might me posideon would come and flood my house the next time another reader dislike my novel...

 

[Toripuru-S]

I have seen far too many story with potentials ruined because the authors listened to the whims of their reader so much they turned into a choose your own interactive story knockoff.

It's hard to find a delicate balance between pandering your audience while still maintaining control of your story's direction, but the end result won't disappoint. I don't have to worry about that since I have no readers, though.

THIS!

If an author already has a clear ending to a "story arc/series ending" in mind, then that author should just wait until executing that vision first, before taking plot direction advice from the readers. If it bombs, hey, they can always remake it if they believe in it enough. Or accept the loss, and move on to a new project to write.

Sure, sometimes the audience knows exactly what they want, but sometimes they don't know what they want. Answering their calls to pandered be to could've robbed them of an otherwise unique experience.

(Of course an author should be open to criticism every step of the way, but that's different)

 

[K5Rakitan]

Not at all. It's my story, bitch!

 

[Kitsura]

Since I write for myself, I pander myself when I want.

I think reader impression of a story is very important. Sometimes it's difficult to distinguish reader outrage because the story is enticing and an annoying event happened v.s. the story being bad.

This is why following your own internal sense is the best measure of what is "right". I guess I "pander" to readers because (At least I think) it's good storytelling.

I will insert a quote by Ira Glass on why your own taste is more important.

Nobody tells this to people who are beginners, and I really wish somebody had told this to me.

All of us who do creative work, we get into it because we have good taste. But it's like there is this gap. For the first couple years that you're making stuff, what you're making isn't so good. It’s not that great. It’s trying to be good, it has ambition to be good, but it’s not that good.

But your taste, the thing that got you into the game, is still killer. And your taste is good enough that you can tell that what you're making is kind of a disappointment to you. A lot of people never get past that phase. They quit.

Everybody I know who does interesting, creative work they went through years where they had really good taste and they could tell that what they were making wasn't as good as they wanted it to be. They knew it fell short. Everybody goes through that.

And if you are just starting out or if you are still in this phase, you gotta know it's normal and the most important thing you can do is do a lot of work. Do a huge volume of work. Put yourself on a deadline so that every week or every month you know you're going to finish one story. It is only by going through a volume of work that you're going to catch up and close that gap. And the work you're making will be as good as your ambitions.

I took longer to figure out how to do this than anyone I’ve ever met. It takes awhile. It’s gonna take you a while. It’s normal to take a while. You just have to fight your way through that.

 

[Sola-sama]

The problem is, most readers do not say anything, so there's nothing to pander to.

I feel this in my soul. Even if I wanted to pander to my readers, am not a shrink that could read minds, so unless they stated what they want, I can't pander them. Still, on the case where some readers voiced out their opinion, I still held my principle. As long as what they want wouldn't affect the end-goal that I want to achieve, I won't mind to indulge them.

 

[Omnifarious]

 

[RavenRunes]

Not at all. If they don't like my stories they can write their own.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

Tldr, author pandered to the readers by killing off some important antagonists along the way and somehow screwed up his plot so badly that the work is rushed to its finale.

So you know the original story and what was intended and know the author changed it?

My question is, how much do you as an author listens to the whims of your readers, so much so that it irreversibly screw with your planned plot?

This is a question? How much do I listen to my readers? How much is too much? When have I listened too much?

Your question is written in a way that implies that ANY feedback from a reader is ALWAYS bad. Can you rephrase this in a manner that is clear so I can answer it?

 

[Imahermit]

Well it’s kind of hard to pander to non existent readers so I can’t really say anything on this subject except, don’t absolutely change the plot because your readers want that, maybe a little but not entirely.

 

[NotaNuffian]

So you know the original story and what was intended and know the author changed it?

I don't. But judging by how from the start of how Colin is scrambling from conspiracies to conspiracies and having to deal with schemers after schemers, I was half expecting a World's Best Martial Artist plot where lore is looped in. But in the end the entire thing turns into Colin using his vampiric power to plow through everything, which is fun on its own but it shifted the flow of the work.

Of course, the genre shift can be easily explained with "Colin was weak, therefore need brain. Colin now strong, hulk smash." But I do feel the biggest shift the most is when he hit level six when dealing with the eastern duke and everything becomes Colin using his high level puppets to zerg rush the enemies while forgoing using them for spyworks, etc. It does not help that when he reaches level six, he is already just one level below the level cap.

Also, there is a hindsight bias when the author admitted that yes, it was supposed to have schemes and plots but readers want to feel empowered, so he gave Colin a ton of power ups to brute force his way through.

Your question is written in a way that implies that ANY feedback from a reader is ALWAYS bad.

Yes, that is how I am framing it, even though it is not true as the notion is at the far (Bad) end of the All Good-All Bad spectrum. Author-readers interaction should be present to ensure that the journey they partake together goes smoothly, but problem starts to arise when some readers would try to hijack the story and let it fly on their terms. While I do get that the start of the problem can be from the author (boring plot, poor execution, etc) and the readers are trying to help with the story off the suicide path, I also feel the irritation of dealing with nagivators (navigators who nag) and ended up the author becoming a chauffeur to his own creation.

On the other hand, the readers can help the author dealing with his sunk-cost fallacy, there's that.

This is a question? How much do I listen to my readers? How much is too much? When have I listened too much? Can you rephrase this in a manner that is clear so I can answer it?

As an author who had already fleshed out his plot progression, charted each major events and given significant roles to characters that are unable to be changed. Are you willing to change all of them just on the whims of your readers?

Or put it more simply, are you willing to make your novel all about harem even though you had planned for no romance or just one because your reader base is crying for it?

 

[CarburetorThompson]

My most recent story was a multi perspective tragedy centered around a WW1 style dogfight. Can’t pander to an audience that doesn’t exist, at least not on this site.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

As an author who had already fleshed out his plot progression, charted each major events and given significant roles to characters that are unable to be changed.

I have written more than 250k words on Hara-Kari Nonfeasance. I am prepared to burn every last word if I feel I wrote it wrong. I typically write in upwards of three times what I need and toss out at least half, before slowly whittling down what I have left until I have pure, distilled product of the highest quality I can make.

I listen to feedback from readers and others. If what they say makes sense and they have a good argument, I am prepared to admit I was wrong and I will course correct. I have no problem throwing out months of work, if the work doesn't fit. Currently on HKN, I am looking at ditching the first 25 chapters of my story in a rewrite, because the consensus is clear: I did not achieve the desired result.

As an author, I have a goal. If my goal is my story, then why am I sharing it? The goal is not the story. The goal is to convey the story. If the story is not received well by some, that happens. If the story is not getting across to my intended audience, that that's my fault. It is a bad author who blames the audience for failing to understand what he's trying to say.

I have multiple plots 'fleshed out' at any given point. I have multiple timelines and concurrent story lines that can be picked up or abandoned as the needs of the story dictate. I have given out significant roles and charted major events, but I cannot say I have ever been in a place I cannot change what has not happened yet.

I cannot change what has happened, however. Once I do something, I am stuck with it. I do not do retcons. However, Procons are another story. You might consider all my plots to be Shrodinger's plots. They exist in multiple states and do not have a single form until finally observed. I do not consider this "changing" the plot, since I write multiple futures then select the one that is true as the "present" of my story arrives at that point in the story.

Are you willing to change all of them just on the whims of your readers?

On a "whim"? No. However, if the reader makes a suggest that makes sense and is better than the idea that I came up with, yes, I will steal that idea. I will pounce on that idea like a starving squirrel on the last peanut on Earth. I make no claim to be perfect and if someone comes up with a better 'future plot' to my story than I thought up, I am not so prideful as to look a gift horse in the mouth.

A good idea is a good idea.

Now, if every reader says, "I really want to see X fuck his sister." my response would be, "I do ghost writing, and I charge 6 cents a word (10k min). You want a private fanfic? I can be bought, but my name goes no where near it." Just because a concept is popular doesn't make it a good idea. They do not know the whole story. They do not understand the sacrifices to future pay offs to other plot lines. They do not know the consequences to certain actions.

I would not change on a "whim", but I will admit I have had readers make off handed comments that sound much better than what i came up with and stole that idea without a hint of guilt or shame.

That said, I do not change the plot/story just because you figured it out. Guessing the outcome of a plot happens and it isn't my place to be a dick and change everything just to prove you wrong. This isn't the second season of 'Lost'. If you figure me out, Great. I will just have to work harder in the future.

Or put it more simply, are you willing to make your novel all about harem even though you had planned for no romance or just one because your reader base is crying for it?

No.

However, I would be willing to consider a side story that did fulfill the requests of a vocal fan base. I am of the opinion, you can always write more. You can always make more plot. You can always make more story. You can always expand your universe. Maybe I'm unique, but I have never suffered from true writer's block.

Do I want my readers to be happy? Sure. I wish to improve their lives. I am not so arrogant as to assume I know every way to make your world better.

However, what you need to remember is is doesn't matter what I write. What matters is what you READ.
If you fail to understand me, If I fail to get my message across, I HAVE FAILED AS AN AUTHOR.

I am the one communicating to YOU. Your feedback tells me what you heard. If you heard something other than what I said, I need to fix my message.

I do not see that as pandering, however. I see that as common sense. It is the duty of an author to be convey the message as intended. This includes confusing the reader, if I intend to confuse you. I am manipulating your emotions. I am fucking with your head. I have an ethical mandate to do so responsibly. I should know what result I want and if I am not getting it, admit my failure and fix it.

If part of that requires me to give the MC a haram... well... I can't see a situation where that would need to happen, but stranger things have happened.

---

I wrote and recorded a fan based version of Welcome to Nightvale called Good Morning Night Vale Tonight. The story line demanded the death of the MC. However, as the story unfolded, I came to an inescapable conclusion that I fucked up. To kill the MC would defeat the point of the story, yet, to not kill the MC would not make sense. It was the first time I managed to write myself into a corner where I truly didn't know what to do.

I asked the few people listening what they wanted and went with that.

Sometimes you just do fan service. Especially when you don't know what to do next. You could do a whole lot worse than giving your audience what they want. However, it would most likely be best to never get yourself painted into a corner like that in the first place.


Side note:
If you like WTNV (early stuff), Most of the story line was trash, but this episode was good.
A Story About Him.

If you're bored and wanna listen to insanity for 48 minutes.

 

[ElliePorter]

Well... I added alternate chapters to end my Magazine arc more successfully as the two original chapters made my readers depressed as the villain scooted free without any repercussions.

 

[NotaNuffian]

I have written more than 250k words on Hara-Kari Nonfeasance. I am prepared to burn every last word if I feel I wrote it wrong. I typically write in upwards of three times what I need and toss out at least half, before slowly whittling down what I have left until I have pure, distilled product of the highest quality I can make.

I listen to feedback from readers and others. If what they say makes sense and they have a good argument, I am prepared to admit I was wrong and I will course correct. I have no problem throwing out months of work, if the work doesn't fit. Currently on HKN, I am looking at ditching the first 25 chapters of my story in a rewrite, because the consensus is clear: I did not achieve the desired result.

As an author, I have a goal. If my goal is my story, then why am I sharing it? The goal is not the story. The goal is to convey the story. If the story is not received well by some, that happens. If the story is not getting across to my intended audience, that that's my fault. It is a bad author who blames the audience for failing to understand what he's trying to say.

I have multiple plots 'fleshed out' at any given point. I have multiple timelines and concurrent story lines that can be picked up or abandoned as the needs of the story dictate. I have given out significant roles and charted major events, but I cannot say I have ever been in a place I cannot change what has not happened yet.

I cannot change what has happened, however. Once I do something, I am stuck with it. I do not do retcons. However, Procons are another story. You might consider all my plots to be Shrodinger's plots. They exist in multiple states and do not have a single form until finally observed. I do not consider this "changing" the plot, since I write multiple futures then select the one that is true as the "present" of my story arrives at that point in the story.


On a "whim"? No. However, if the reader makes a suggest that makes sense and is better than the idea that I came up with, yes, I will steal that idea. I will pounce on that idea like a starving squirrel on the last peanut on Earth. I make no claim to be perfect and if someone comes up with a better 'future plot' to my story than I thought up, I am not so prideful as to look a gift horse in the mouth.

A good idea is a good idea.

Now, if every reader says, "I really want to see X fuck his sister." my response would be, "I do ghost writing, and I charge 6 cents a word (10k min). You want a private fanfic? I can be bought, but my name goes no where near it." Just because a concept is popular doesn't make it a good idea. They do not know the whole story. They do not understand the sacrifices to future pay offs to other plot lines. They do not know the consequences to certain actions.

I would not change on a "whim", but I will admit I have had readers make off handed comments that sound much better than what i came up with and stole that idea without a hint of guilt or shame.

That said, I do not change the plot/story just because you figured it out. Guessing the outcome of a plot happens and it isn't my place to be a dick and change everything just to prove you wrong. This isn't the second season of 'Lost'. If you figure me out, Great. I will just have to work harder in the future.



No.

However, I would be willing to consider a side story that did fulfill the requests of a vocal fan base. I am of the opinion, you can always write more. You can always make more plot. You can always make more story. You can always expand your universe. Maybe I'm unique, but I have never suffered from true writer's block.

Do I want my readers to be happy? Sure. I wish to improve their lives. I am not so arrogant as to assume I know every way to make your world better.

However, what you need to remember is is doesn't matter what I write. What matters is what you READ.
If you fail to understand me, If I fail to get my message across, I HAVE FAILED AS AN AUTHOR.

I am the one communicating to YOU. Your feedback tells me what you heard. If you heard something other than what I said, I need to fix my message.

I do not see that as pandering, however. I see that as common sense. It is the duty of an author to be convey the message as intended. This includes confusing the reader, if I intend to confuse you. I am manipulating your emotions. I am fucking with your head. I have an ethical mandate to do so responsibly. I should know what result I want and if I am not getting it, admit my failure and fix it.

If part of that requires me to give the MC a haram... well... I can't see a situation where that would need to happen, but stranger things have happened.

---

I wrote and recorded a fan based version of Welcome to Nightvale called Good Morning Night Vale Tonight. The story line demanded the death of the MC. However, as the story unfolded, I came to an inescapable conclusion that I fucked up. To kill the MC would defeat the point of the story, yet, to not kill the MC would not make sense. It was the first time I managed to write myself into a corner where I truly didn't know what to do.

I asked the few people listening what they wanted and went with that.

Sometimes you just do fan service. Especially when you don't know what to do next. You could do a whole lot worse than giving your audience what they want. However, it would most likely be best to never get yourself painted into a corner like that in the first place.


Side note:
If you like WTNV (early stuff), Most of the story line was trash, but this episode was good.
A Story About Him.

If you're bored and wanna listen to insanity for 48 minutes.