I hate the 'sad mass murderer' trope.

forli

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You sound like one of those mayflies that reads a story knowing full well how much they despise the premise and leave behind a 0.5 review because its somehow the authors fault that they forced themselves to read a novel full of themes they hate.

Mass murderer may be going a little far, though. Personally, that's just about as ridiculous as saying that a god checked your protags soul and marked it as "really good person", but for the opposite side of the spectrum. Its just a deus ex machina to explain the 'evil' of your main character.

But evil protagonists are frustrating and boring? Your opinion, mate. Don't know about you, but I personally enjoy being invested in a story I'm reading.
Happy go lucky, pure and wholesome protagonists with bricks for brains, those possessing the legendary talk-no-jutsu or even worse, formerly bullied people unrealistically becoming heroes instead of villains, is just pathetically unrealistic wish fulfillment. I require the cold, hard, reality of the situation.
At the end of the day, 'evil' protagonists will always be more realistic and viable than their fantastically single-minded counterparts.

If that is what the op is trying to say, well they have a very weird way of showing it, lmao.
1.
This thread was supposed to be about one specific trope. The talk about evil protagonists only started because someone started to talk shit about good protagonists in a very inflammatory tone, so I responded in kind by talking shit about evil protagonists in the same tone because I'm tired of that discussion always being one-sided with only the 'pro-evil' side being allowed to shit on everyone else. And now you come here talking even more shit in an even worse tone, so don't complain when I explain why those evil characters you love so much are all trash. Don't dish it out if you are not ready to take it.

2.
I've not seen anyone give a 0.5 rating because they didn't like that a protagonist was evil. I've certainly seen plenty of the opposite, plenty of assholes throwing shitfits whenever a character has some morals and does not cater to their deluded conception of what is 'realistic' (and you sound exactly like one of them).

3.
No, I don't go looking for stories with themes I don't like. I made this thread after encountering this trope in a story that presented itself as a light-hearted slice of life (and keep pretending to be one even after the piece of shit character was introduced). This crap keeps appearing in every genre, there's no way to avoid it other than to stop reading web novels completely.
 

Ymadthepirate

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Same a tree I watch john Wolfe was playing a Jeff the killer game then all of a sudden it says reach Jeff's heart I'm like bro what he murders people his family couldn't reach his heart your just some bitch
 

LordJoyde

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1.
This thread was supposed to be about one specific trope. The talk about evil protagonists only started because someone started to talk shit about good protagonists in a very inflammatory tone, so I responded in kind by talking shit about evil protagonists in the same tone because I'm tired of that discussion always being one-sided with only the 'pro-evil' side being allowed to shit on everyone else. And now you come here talking even more shit in an even worse tone, so don't complain when I explain why those evil characters you love so much are all trash. Don't dish it out if you are not ready to take it.

2.
I've not seen anyone give a 0.5 rating because they didn't like that a protagonist was evil. I've certainly seen plenty of the opposite, plenty of assholes throwing shitfits whenever a character has some morals and does not cater to their deluded conception of what is 'realistic' (and you sound exactly like one of them).

3.
No, I don't go looking for stories with themes I don't like. I made this thread after encountering this trope in a story that presented itself as a light-hearted slice of life (and keep pretending to be one even after the piece of shit character was introduced). This crap keeps appearing in every genre, there's no way to avoid it other than to stop reading web novels completely.
"Ah yes, something something is all "trash" and my opinion is utterly unassailable because it is mine, duh!"

If you've never seen anyone give a 0.5 rating for that reason, you must have not been an author for very long or are extremely lucky in that regard. Good for you. No comment on the delusional conception of reality. I don't exactly feel like attempting to hammer through a wall.

And don't dish it out if I'm not ready to take it? Really dude, I just got here. We haven't even begun.

Nobody ever looks for stories they don't like. That does not mean people are exempt from reading something they initially enjoy, only to find out that the author has a very different theme in mind for the future of the novel, which is fairly disappointing, of course.
Question though, someone made a slice of life story about a mass murderer turned good because they weren't sad anymore, if I'm getting you right? On this, I'll agree with you and say that that's just concrete bullshit, lmfao.
 

forli

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Ah yes, something something is all "trash" and my opinion is utterly unassailable because it is mine, duh!
That's what you and your friends do. I only started doing something similar in response to someone doing it first in this thread.

Stop with the projection.
 

N0xiety

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Curious question, would John Wick be a piece of trash character by your standards? He killed close to a hundred people just because someone killed his puppy, which was the last gift from his deceased wife. Her sudden death left John in deep mourning so he already wasn't in a good place, and when someone destroyed the last memento of her, he just went all killing machine. And he was an elite assassin in the first place, so i'm sure he must have killed many more before the events even happened.

Ofc, those he killed in the movie could hardly be called 'innocent', but i don't see many protags who actually kill innocents as you claim tbh. Like, there are many who kill hudreds of people, but they are his enemies at the end of the day. They stand in the path and confront the protagonist, they don't just stay in the sideline.

The only questionable action i can think of that sometimes happens in novels where innocents are killed is clan eradication. Tho that can also come down to some philosophical debates about how you define 'innocent'. Like, are the sons and daughters of a clan that eradicate other clans for resources and benefits innocent? These kids enjoy all the resources earned by spilling blood, and then gain their strength through it, which in the future adds to the clans ability to earn more resources to continue their high standing. Not to mention, bloodline in cultivation setting actually exists as a solid benefit, and it is improved through all these warring actions throughout dozens of generations. Those noble clans kids everything is built on suppressing others to obtain more benefits for the clan. Even their talent is something obtained through it, they don't just get born talented out of nowhere, there is a reason the kids of powerful clans are talented, and that reason is based on so much bloodshed over generations. The mere presence of their powerful bloodline could be seen as a 'crime' that is rooted in blood from a certain point of view. So, should they be protected as innocents? Should their bloodline preserved? Or, should the clan be eradicated, like they have done to so many others in their path to power for thousands of years?
 
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CupcakeNinja

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Main reason I couldn't get into redo of the healer or shield hero. Why can't we have more characters like the punisher
....because he' an extremist who'd kill you for waning to protect your identity? The man is psycho. Lets not pretend he actually has the flexibility to judge people. He's like the Hammurabi Code made manifest. There's a reason they dont exist anymore
Curious question, would John Wick be a piece of trash character by your standards? He killed close to a hundred people just because someone killed his puppy, which was the last gift from his deceased wife. Her sudden death left John in deep mourning so he already wasn't in a good place, and when someone destroyed the last memento of her, he just went all killing machine. And he was an elite assassin in the first place, so i'm sure he must have killed many more before the events even happened.

Ofc, those he killed in the movie could hardly be called 'innocent', but i don't see many protags who actually kill innocents as you claim tbh. Like, there are many who kill hudreds of people, but they are his enemies at the end of the day. They stand in the path and confront the protagonist, they don't just stay in the sideline.

The only questionable action i can think of that sometimes happens in novels where innocents are killed is clan eradication. Tho that can also come down to some philosophical debates about how you define 'innocent'. Like, are the sons and daughters of a clan that eradicate other clans for resources and benefits innocent? These kids enjoy all the resources earned by spilling blood, and then gain their strength through it, which in the future adds to the clans ability to earn more resources to continue their high standing. Not to mention, bloodline in cultivation setting actually exists as a solid benefit, and it is improved through all these warring actions throughout dozens of generations. Those noble clans kids everything is built on suppressing others to obtain more benefits for the clan. Even their talent is something obtained through it, they don't just get born talented out of nowhere, there is a reason the kids of powerful clans are talented, and that reason is based on so much bloodshed over generations. The mere presence of their powerful bloodline could be seen as a 'crime' that is rooted in blood from a certain point of view. So, should they be protected as innocents? Should their bloodline preserved? Or, should the clan be eradicated, like they have done to so many others in their path to power for thousands of years?
what? Xianxia protags, at least kill innocents all the time...they regularly kill entire families just because a few became their enemies and they dont want to leave anyone alive to take revenge on him later. They're too pussy to accept the consequences of their actions and would rather kill women and children who had nothing to do with the conflict between himself and some asshat young masters or elders instead.

Happens alot in jap and korean stories too, to a lesser extent.

You probably just dont read stories with those kind of mcs very often.
 
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N0xiety

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what? Xianxia protags, at least kill innocents all the time...they regularly kill entire families just because a few became their enemies and they dont want to leave anyone alive to take revenge on him later. They're too pussy to accept the consequences of their actions and would rather kill women and children who had nothing to do with the conflict between himself and some asshat young masters or elders instead.
Like i said, the children of those clans, their mere existence can be viewed as a sin from a certain point of view. There is a reason why the kids of those powerful clans are talented. They didn't just become talented out of nowhere by chance, the clan wouldn't be able to survive by chance for so long, so much bloodshed over thousands of years lies behind the culmination of their superior bloodline. For their bloodline to be improved to such a point, they carry the sins of the clan itself just from being born. They can not be free of responsibility when they enjoy all the benefits. Their existence itself relies on it, so they must carry the responsibility of the clan too. It is nonsensical to think the kids of those clans as completely 'innocent' just because they are kids. In that kind of cultivation setting, parents and ancestors sins are a part of their existence and bloodline, that can not be disregarded.

Btw, most of the time mc doesn't even need to eradicate a clan completely. Since the clans are so arrogant and have been in power for so long, they keep on coming till their most powerful ancestor is eradicated. When the clan is left without power, their enemies take the chance to eradicate or enslave the rest of the bloodline anyways even if mc doesn't do anything about it. It really changes nothing whether mc takes the time to completely eradicate the bloodline or not in the end. Even when it's not explicitly stated, that's obviously what's happening in the background.
 
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SakeVision

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it's written for emotional teens who think their hormonal depression is the end of the world
Main reason I couldn't get into redo of the healer or shield hero. Why can't we have more characters like the punisher

bruuuh, it was supposed to be shield hero's flaw, and he has a character development arc where he gets over it

As for rapist of the healer, it's just rape fantasy made for cumbrain
 

CupcakeNinja

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Like i said, the children of those clans, their mere existence can be viewed as a sin from a certain point of view. There is a reason why the kids of those powerful clans are talented. They didn't just become talented out of nowhere by chance, the clan wouldn't be able to survive by chance for so long, so much bloodshed over thousands of years lies behind the culmination of their superior bloodline. For their bloodline to be improved to such a point, they carry the sins of the clan itself just from being born. They can not be free of responsibility when they enjoy all the benefits. Their existence itself relies on it, so they must carry the responsibility of the clan too. It is nonsensical to think the kids of those clans as completely 'innocent' just because they are kids. In that kind of cultivation setting, parents and ancestors sins are a part of their existence and bloodline, that can not be disregarded.

Btw, most of the time mc doesn't even need to eradicate a clan completely. Since the clans are so arrogant and have been in power for so long, they keep on coming till their most powerful ancestor is eradicated. When the clan is left without power, their enemies take the chance to eradicate or enslave the rest of the bloodline anyways even if mc doesn't do anything about it. It really changes nothing whether mc takes the time to completely eradicate the bloodline or not in the end. Even when it's not explicitly stated, that's obviously what's happening in the background.
(aorry for the long rant, my man, and hope you dont think i sound like too much of an ass or that im tryna pick a fight lol...just giving my own perspective too. )

Bro you really sound like you're making excuses for child murder here. And its based on some nonsensical notion about their "sins" via a mere accident of birth. Now, those in powerful clans ARE often very arrogant scum, even as children, but thats not always the case. And they ALL need to die?

Yes not every MC kills the entire clan and other clans just pounce on them when the MC KILLS the elders and patriarchs who supported the clan.....so? thats another topic, or rather besides the point. Im just talking of the Mcs here and i say they're pissy little cunts for any mass extermination of a family unless they know for a fact every man, woman and child is guilty of some grave crime.

Its like blaming someone's kids for being born rich when their parents worked hard to earn that wealth they enjoy. Its fucking ridiculous. People always moan about unfairness when they didn't put in the same effort as others did to become as well off as they are. It being easier to attain great wealth when you're born into already wealthy families is simply your right, earned by and given to you by your parents or grandparents or whoever.

If im a xianxia clan leader and i killed thousands to make my clan powerful, thats MY sin. You can just push it onto my offspring and later descendants or say that they hold some blame for enjoying the things I provided them. If someone doesn't like it, they can claw their way up too.

I
 

Templary

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Mmm those situations are also very good to develop the characters, although many, many times they are wasted, I think that the vital thing is to make it known that he is putting his feelings/goals about all those massacred and there is a reason for it
 

BearlyAlive

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Let's be honest: Most of us are/were/will be either angsty or edgy teens that suffer from severe lack of confidence, love, human interactions, empathy, common sense, a good fuck, some hugs, reality checks or all of the above.

So of course they'd like Chaddick McMurderface, the guy who killed the whole multiverse because someone looked at him over some weird person that is strughling to live their live when they could just do the "smart" thing and murder and rape everything into oblivion. Heh, stupid losers not killing all their problems...


I like well-written evil characters as much as everyone else (maybe even a bit more) but a character whose only trait is MUH EDGE, MUH ANGST, MUH MURDER is just a terribly written excuse of a character.

Those mass murder types need to get redeemed. Or used as a warn sign by either being responsible for the lifes of others while trying to prevent a repetition of their own mistake, or die being denied their goal/wish after realizing what they actually did.
 

Akasora

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Like i said, the children of those clans, their mere existence can be viewed as a sin from a certain point of view. There is a reason why the kids of those powerful clans are talented. They didn't just become talented out of nowhere by chance, the clan wouldn't be able to survive by chance for so long, so much bloodshed over thousands of years lies behind the culmination of their superior bloodline. For their bloodline to be improved to such a point, they carry the sins of the clan itself just from being born. They can not be free of responsibility when they enjoy all the benefits. Their existence itself relies on it, so they must carry the responsibility of the clan too. It is nonsensical to think the kids of those clans as completely 'innocent' just because they are kids. In that kind of cultivation setting, parents and ancestors sins are a part of their existence and bloodline, that can not be disregarded.

Btw, most of the time mc doesn't even need to eradicate a clan completely. Since the clans are so arrogant and have been in power for so long, they keep on coming till their most powerful ancestor is eradicated. When the clan is left without power, their enemies take the chance to eradicate or enslave the rest of the bloodline anyways even if mc doesn't do anything about it. It really changes nothing whether mc takes the time to completely eradicate the bloodline or not in the end. Even when it's not explicitly stated, that's obviously what's happening in the background.
Bro... You need to stop justifying genocide...
 

Love4NovelGuy

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Like i said, the children of those clans, their mere existence can be viewed as a sin from a certain point of view. There is a reason why the kids of those powerful clans are talented. They didn't just become talented out of nowhere by chance, the clan wouldn't be able to survive by chance for so long, so much bloodshed over thousands of years lies behind the culmination of their superior bloodline. For their bloodline to be improved to such a point, they carry the sins of the clan itself just from being born. They can not be free of responsibility when they enjoy all the benefits. Their existence itself relies on it, so they must carry the responsibility of the clan too. It is nonsensical to think the kids of those clans as completely 'innocent' just because they are kids. In that kind of cultivation setting, parents and ancestors sins are a part of their existence and bloodline, that can not be disregarded.

Btw, most of the time mc doesn't even need to eradicate a clan completely. Since the clans are so arrogant and have been in power for so long, they keep on coming till their most powerful ancestor is eradicated. When the clan is left without power, their enemies take the chance to eradicate or enslave the rest of the bloodline anyways even if mc doesn't do anything about it. It really changes nothing whether mc takes the time to completely eradicate the bloodline or not in the end. Even when it's not explicitly stated, that's obviously what's happening in the background.

(aorry for the long rant, my man, and hope you dont think i sound like too much of an ass or that im tryna pick a fight lol...just giving my own perspective too. )

Bro you really sound like you're making excuses for child murder here. And its based on some nonsensical notion about their "sins" via a mere accident of birth. Now, those in powerful clans ARE often very arrogant scum, even as children, but thats not always the case. And they ALL need to die?

Yes not every MC kills the entire clan and other clans just pounce on them when the MC KILLS the elders and patriarchs who supported the clan.....so? thats another topic, or rather besides the point. Im just talking of the Mcs here and i say they're pissy little cunts for any mass extermination of a family unless they know for a fact every man, woman and child is guilty of some grave crime.

Its like blaming someone's kids for being born rich when their parents worked hard to earn that wealth they enjoy. Its fucking ridiculous. People always moan about unfairness when they didn't put in the same effort as others did to become as well off as they are. It being easier to attain great wealth when you're born into already wealthy families is simply your right, earned by and given to you by your parents or grandparents or whoever.

If im a xianxia clan leader and i killed thousands to make my clan powerful, thats MY sin. You can just push it onto my offspring and later descendants or say that they hold some blame for enjoying the things I provided them. If someone doesn't like it, they can claw their way up too.

I

Like @CupcakeNinja said, whatever justification you use, how can you blame a child for the ‘sins of the father’? (You can look that up as a trope).
That’s just pure nonsense.

@N0xiety, I get where your coming from as a fellow Xianxia reader who has seen the tropes multiple times, but things can only get better if there’s change. Plus, there’s a difference between understanding and including the META added to story (like it being Ancient China most the time, where cruelty was seen differently), and trying to portray your mass murderer as virtuous.

Readers absolutely love Reverend Insanity when he goes on a killing spree. Why? It’s because he doesn’t flaunt how ‘good’ he is like Chu Feng from MGA and Yun Che from Against the Gods.

But they do hate it when the supposed ‘good guy’ gets long monologues like: “Oh woe is me, I had no choice but to kill these innocent babies still sucking on their momma’s milkers, as well as pregnant women. Because they would influence me in a bad way in the future after what I did.

What? They’ll fall into poverty and not be able to do anything to me anyway since I killed all the leading figures, and they need time to re-elect elders and leaders that could move them?

You’re saying I could have used my supposed ‘wit’ and ‘intelligence’ to put my people in positions of power to control the clan? Using a clever manipulation of fear and intimidation?

Nah, killing them is way easier.”

Alright, I get I’d exaggerated some of that, but you get what I’m getting at. Women and children above the age 4 aren’t what I’m get here. The normal trope that leads to genocide is usually that the protagonist is following customs.

Killing families in response to a wrong done by one individual happen a lot in Ancient China settings. They’re usually done for the shock value and to show a character’s ruthlessness.

Some Xianxia writers don’t get that and instead just use it to eliminate potential plot holes since they have a setting where everyone is magic. It’s usually less about morality and more about the MC refining a weapon out of their blood or smth.

The readers can’t ask why a certain clan with a genius bloodline disappeared later if the MC kills them first. Plus, edgy teens just love protagonists that can stand up for themselves by murdering a bunch. Slaughter is just a trope now.

But like I said before, you can only improve a genre by identifying the common tropes and executing them better (or in this case, removing the problem altogether). Enough said.
 
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