Is it bad when you find joy in people hating your character?

[yansusustories]

I am a bit too much of a media and popculture geek sometimes and forget not everyone is!

It's probably a combination of that and me living under the metaphorical rock most of the time. The list of stuff I haven't seen and sometimes haven't even heard of despite it being popular is huuuuuge

It clashes so much with all the advice of "write more realistic characters, we're tired of cardboard cutouts and archetypes". And then, when you do, they will be cranky again because now it's not very enjoyable to read because people try to escape realism for a reason.

I guess what is actually wanted is a cardboard cutout that was just painted over with a very thin layer so it looks like it actually has a personality Or maybe I'm just cynical

 

[Freesia.Cutepearl]

Funny how you all started talking about character Archetypes.

Also sidenote, Queenie, you are a queen of all this pop-culture stuff. Also, I still plan to respond to your post in my thread about how people talk to each other, I just want to find a time to watch that video and be in a clear headspace. I don't want to get distracted as I often do and lose focus and then reply half assed.

ANYWHO-WHATSIT

I just finished not long ago typing a long reply to @Assurbanipal_II who has been helping me with my writing, we've been having a lot of talk in the comments, it's been really awesome

Where A2 said that Elicia was much more relatable to them, more human, than my main character and her two newly acquired sidekicks.

I think it's kind of interesting, how you have to use archetypes, at least first, really? I tried to combine multiple for the two new characters, to create a decent small backstory and motivation for them.

Assurbanipal_II· · 54 mins ago

Elicia seems much more human to me. I can relate to her emotions much more than to Lilith and her party. And, yes, I should read your forum entry.

Freesia.Cutepearl· Author · · 20 mins ago

I had hoped, Lilith's personality, thoughts, and feelings had been splayed all over her narration.

While I do want to try and make it more readable, it's meant to be sloppy and conveyed how someone might actually talk, as in, humans don't usually create perfectly crafted sentences or thoughts, and Taylor/Lilith especially is more scatterbrained that typical, like someone else you might know, A2

(Hey, I resemble that remark!

)

As for Lilac and Nellie, as in a recent discussion on the forums, it's a bit hard to convey character in writing without using archetypes, at least at first. I hope to develop them into more fleshed out people as we go along.

Lilac is the Archetype that's dedicated to research and the pursuit and furtherment of human knowledge, at nearly any cost to herself, and mostly within standard morales, though she could find herself running astray under the right circumstances.

She's also bisexual, in the closet even to herself, along with being influenced by her growing up as part of a group of three friends, the other two guys, her half brother, and his best friend. Whom ended up fighting over her as noble politics tore the two guys apart, causing her to run away to academia and project her disdain for noble politics onto other men of stature.

Nellie on the other hand is the Archetype of a hard-working person born with an unlucky lot in life. Forced to be serious most of her early life, she fights against her own nature of being bubbly and cheerful, behavior unbecoming a servant trained at such a prestigious academy.

She is fiercely dedicated to those she cares about, and once she becomes attached to someone she would quite literally kill to protect them, even if they were in the wrong. Her morales are only concerned with those she cares about, anyone else might as well just be in the way.

Her dream to travel and see the world was born out of being cooped up her entire childhood, teenage, and young adult life. Having read many books, some during study, and others out of boredom and longing to be free of confinement. She has an idealist fantasized view of the world, though she is aware of how dark it can be.

I hope that the Archetypes and tropes are clear from my description and that I managed to combine and weave them into a decent starting point for those two new characters, Lilac and Nellie.

It is interesting though, it seems like, in some way, using Archetypes makes a character more relatable than writing a realistic, muddled person? Or maybe it's just me?

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Funny how you all started talking about character Archetypes.

Also sidenote, Queenie, you are a queen of all this pop-culture stuff. Also, I still plan to respond to your post in my thread about how people talk to each other, I just want to find a time to watch that video and be in a clear headspace. I don't want to get distracted as I often do and lose focus and then reply half assed.

ANYWHO-WHATSIT

I just finished not long ago typing a long reply to @Assurbanipal_II who has been helping me with my writing, we've been having a lot of talk in the comments, it's been really awesome

Where A2 said that Elicia was much more relatable to them, more human, than my main character and her two newly acquired sidekicks.

I think it's kind of interesting, how you have to use archetypes, at least first, really? I tried to combine multiple for the two new characters, to create a decent small backstory and motivation for them.









I hope that the Archetypes and tropes are clear from my description and that I managed to combine and weave them into a decent starting point for those two new characters, Lilac and Nellie.

It is interesting though, it seems like, in some way, using Archetypes makes a character more relatable than writing a realistic, muddled person? Or maybe it's just me?

You know. I read quite a few novels and I am an understanding type due to my knowledge of history in general.

I am someone beyond the black and white morality, which is applicable to your audience is this case. They believe Lilith to take a moral high ground and your characters to a lot to justify themselves and their actions, but they come across as snobbish and self-centred instead.

They feel like US foreign policy. They believe they are right no matter what, crusaders of justice, which was this time the case, albeit the actual situation is very grey, but they never doubt their motives. I feel no self-reflection from Lilith and friends, no reconsideration. They feel like characters driven by ideology and righteousness rather than by genuine benign motives like a MC from a Chinese cultivation novel.

That is why I can relate to Elicia more. Her emotions are more genuine, more logical. Her hatred is real, many of your readers just seem to hate her because she opposes the MC, which is a weak reason. They hate her because of MC bias, which is simplistic.

 

[Queenfisher]

Funny how you all started talking about character Archetypes.

Also sidenote, Queenie, you are a queen of all this pop-culture stuff.

Erm... I sure hope not o_o. I am just a procrastinator who watches/reads too much stuff, lol. It gets sorted and categorized into more manageable chunks in my brainspace sooner or later, but I am no expert,

I hope that the Archetypes and tropes are clear from my description and that I managed to combine and weave them into a decent starting point for those two new characters, Lilac and Nellie.

It is interesting though, it seems like, in some way, using Archetypes makes a character more relatable than writing a realistic, muddled person? Or maybe it's just me?

Mmm...

From what I've learned, there are no actual non-Archetypes in fiction, really. Every character in existence can be boiled down to it, and TV Tropes helps with a lot of categorizing it into easily-digestible character molds.

For me, the ideology of writing is such that:

1. To succeed, it needs to be targeted and marketed at a specific audience and correctly.

2. Therefore, it needs to be able to use something recognizable like a brand or a iconic element that others can discern at a glance. Tags and genres (even here, on SH), for instance, is one such thing that helps authors to do it efficiently. But only at the onset.

3. Once inside the story, it has to do the same work again -- make the reader understand WHAT they're reading, WHY they should care, and HOW much they will/will not enjoy it.

4. To do that -- we have to operate with generalizations and categories that are recognizable very fast. I.e. -- tropes, themes, stylizations, understandable and simple premises, archetypes, and sometimes even cliches. Once again -- with the popculture stuff I constantly quote, just look at the general models they use in Mad Men when they sell people stuff. Their ads are ridiculously generic, but that's why they work. They don't care about being original. They care about selling the product.

5. True originality comes later when your readers already care about your story and trust you as the author to take them and lead them whenever you want to explore.

I guess that's it, for me at least? I cannot overemphasize the importance of trust in the author in accepting a lot of non-standard things in fiction. But before I can trust them, I got to see how they handle the general archetypes, cliches, generic premises, etc, in gauging their skill and mindset. It usually is a good indicator of how they will write more complex stuff and that they will not disappoint me there.

 

[Freesia.Cutepearl]

I am someone beyond the black and white morality, which is applicable to your audience is this case. They believe Lilith to take a moral high ground and your characters to a lot to justify themselves and their actions, but they come across as snobbish and self-centred instead.

They feel like US foreign policy. They believe they are right no matter what, crusaders of justice, which was this time the case, albeit the actual situation is very grey, but they never doubt their motives. I feel no self-reflection from Lilith and friends, no reconsideration. They feel like characters driven by ideology and righteousness rather than by genuine benign motives like a MC from a Chinese cultivation novel.

That is why I can relate to Elicia more. Her emotions are more genuine, more logical. Her hatred is real, many of your readers just seem to hate her because she opposes the MC, which is a weak reason. They hate her because of MC bias, which is simplistic.

It might not be coming across well, but, Lilith is questioning herself a ton, and really worried about what is becoming of her, she's also not really, truly accepted that this is her new reality and hasn't been treating it quite as carefully as she might have on earth. The other two, new characters, have their own motivations, which are mostly selfish currently.

Ultimately, as is referenced by the Title, Lilith is not going to be some moral high ground character, or at least, that's my intent. And I hope to contrast her own feelings and thoughts, and skewed narration with that of other POV as things progress.

I was hoping to show the messy reality of someone who was a sheltered earthling, who thought of themselves as reasonable good, pushed by the trauma of their own brutal murder, as well as the real and perceived injustices of life, into someone who tries, and does do some good, but also does some very bad things. A real person, given great power, and how she might grow into it and, also, how she is being shaped by the "Goddess" who gave her that power, who is using Lilith for her own means(which is the whole reason for the Isekai to have occurred.)

But I'm a new writer and I suck horribly so IDK how well I'm managing. Based on your feedback, not nearly as well as I'd hoped. Though to be fair, I've only wanted to hint at what's going on with Lilith and lul people into following along only to surprise them with the realization that things are messier than they first seemed.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Erm... I sure hope not o_o. I am just a procrastinator who watches/reads too much stuff, lol. It gets sorted and categorized into more manageable chunks in my brainspace sooner or later, but I am no expert,



Mmm...

From what I've learned, there are no actual non-Archetypes in fiction, really. Every character in existence can be boiled down to it, and TV Tropes helps with a lot of categorizing it into easily-digestible character molds.

For me, the ideology of writing is such that:

1. To succeed, it needs to be targeted and marketed at a specific audience and correctly.

2. Therefore, it needs to be able to use something recognizable like a brand or a iconic element that others can discern at a glance. Tags and genres (even here, on SH), for instance, is one such thing that helps authors to do it efficiently. But only at the onset.

3. Once inside the story, it has to do the same work again -- make the reader understand WHAT they're reading, WHY they should care, and HOW much they will/will not enjoy it.

4. To do that -- we have to operate with generalizations and categories that are recognizable very fast. I.e. -- tropes, themes, stylizations, understandable and simple premises, archetypes, and sometimes even cliches. Once again -- with the popculture stuff I constantly quote, just look at the general models they use in Mad Men when they sell people stuff. Their ads are ridiculously generic, but that's why they work. They don't care about being original. They care about selling the product.

5. True originality comes later when your readers already care about your story and trust you as the author to take them and lead them whenever you want to explore.

I guess that's it, for me at least? I cannot overemphasize the importance of trust in the author in accepting a lot of non-standard things in fiction. But before I can trust them, I got to see how they handlethe general archetypes, cliches, generic premises, etc, in gauging their skill and mindset. It usually is a good indicator of how they will write more complex stuff and that they will not disappoint me there.

Excellent advice.

 

[Freesia.Cutepearl]

Excellent advice.

I wonder if I'm too far in to capitalize on such a thing now.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

It might not be coming across well, but, Lilith is questioning herself a ton, and really worried about what is becoming of her, she's also not really, truly accepted that this is her new reality and hasn't been treating it quite as carefully as she might have on earth. The other two, new characters, have their own motivations, which are mostly selfish currently.

Ultimately, as is referenced by the Title, Lilith is not going to be some moral high ground character, or at least, that's my intent. And I hope to contrast her own feelings and thoughts, and skewed narration with that of other POV as things progress.

I was hoping to show the messy reality of someone who was a sheltered earthling, who thought of themselves as reasonable good, pushed by the trauma of their own brutal murder, as well as the real and perceived injustices of life, into someone who tries, and does do some good, but also does some very bad things. A real person, given great power, and how she might grow into it and, also, how she is being shaped by the "Goddess" who gave her that power, who is using Lilith for her own means(which is the whole reason for the Isekai to have occurred.)

But I'm a new writer and I suck horribly so IDK how well I'm managing. Based on your feedback, not nearly as well as I'd hoped. Though to be fair, I've only wanted to hint at what's going on with Lilith and lul people into following along only to surprise them with the realization that things are messier than they first seemed.

You don't suck. The scene is more complex and it wasn't Lilith who annoyed me. She was rather passive in the exchange except for killing Trist-something.

I disliked her sidekicks. They seem like the stupid side characters that are foolishly loyal. Lilith remains beneath her surface a bloodsucking vampire succubus that feeds on human energy. All curiosity and her nice deeds aside, Lilith essentially remains a monster.

 

[Freesia.Cutepearl]

You don't suck. The scene is more complex and it wasn't Lilith who annoyed me. She was rather passive in the exchange except for killing Trist-something.

I disliked her sidekicks. They seem like the stupid side characters that are foolishly loyal. Lilith remains beneath her surface a bloodsucking vampire succubus that feeds on human energy. All curiosity and her nice deeds aside, Lilith essentially remains a monster.

Yes! She is a Monster, a Flawed Human, given a Monster's powers, well, there's more to it, but.. SPOILERS.

Her new sidekicks are indeed very selfish, and there is a contrivance to their loyalty, for Lilac, she was already biased in her maniacal pursuit of study, having forsaken people mostly because of her experience growing up. Combined with being influenced by Lilith's powers, while being drugged, while ALSO being unknowingly attracted to women(bisexual), she's basically put all her eggs in Lilith's basket.

Nellie is idealistic and ruthless and is basically using Lilith to help her see the world, although, after the weird incident where Lilith tried to do something crazy with her telepathy, Nellie has an inside view of Lilith's experiences and thoughts, Lilith knows nothing of Nellie, really. So she has a lot of power to manipulate Lilith. She does care for her though, after experiencing so many of Lilith's memories. But, exactly how she cares for Lilith, remains to be seen.

Edit: P.S. This all does feel really heavy and a lot to take on as a new writer, for my first story, with like a month's experience.

Not to mention, I'm very flawed myself at understanding people, my brain is not Neurotypical. I am on the Autistic spectrum.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Yes! She is a Monster, a Flawed Human, given a Monster's powers, well, there's more to it, but.. SPOILERS.

Her new sidekicks are indeed very selfish, and there is a contrivance to their loyalty, for Lilac, she was already biased in her maniacal pursuit of study, having forsaken people mostly because of her experience growing up. Combined with being influenced by Lilith's powers, while being drugged, while ALSO being unknowingly attracted to women(bisexual), she's basically put all her eggs in Lilith's basket.

Nellie is idealistic and ruthless and is basically using Lilith to help her see the world, although, after the weird incident where Lilith tried to do something crazy with her telepathy, Nellie has an inside view of Lilith's experiences and thoughts, Lilith knows nothing of Nellie, really. So she has a lot of power to manipulate Lilith. She does care for her though, after experiencing so many of Lilith's memories. But, exactly how she cares for Lilith, remains to be seen.

Edit: P.S. This all does feel really heavy and a lot to take on as a new writer, for my first story, with like a month's experience.

Not to mention, I'm very flawed myself at understanding people, my brain is not Neurotypical. I am on the Autistic spectrum.

Ah, that makes sense. Now a few things become clear. But to be fair, it doesn't help that I jumped all previous chapters and dived into chapter 16 directly.

 

[Queenfisher]

I wonder if I'm too far in to capitalize on such a thing now.

Silly Cutepearl!

If your book has many readers who care about it -- it means you did everything exactly right! The only issue is if you lied about something and the book actually promises something it won't go into, but then, you would fail at the very first point of "correct marketing". I hope you didn't!

I can't comment on the rest of your and Assu-hime's exchange since I haven't read your book yet, but I can comment on this:

Not to mention, I'm very flawed myself at understanding people, my brain is not Neurotypical. I am on the Autistic spectrum.

I am too ^^.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Silly Cutepearl!

If your book has many readers who care about it -- it means you did everything exactly right! The only issue is if you lied about something and the book actually promises something it won't go into, but then, you would fail at the very first point of "correct marketing". I hope you didn't!

I can't comment on the rest of your and Assu-hime's exchange since I haven't read your book yet, but I can comment on this:



I am too ^^.

Are all people I meet here on scribble on the autistic spectrum? So far the rate is frighteningly high.

 

[Queenfisher]

Are all people I meet here on scribble on the autistic spectrum? So far the rate is frighteningly high.

Why do you think we all came here???

It says more about you who are not one and are still hanging around this place than about all of us

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

Why do you think we all came here???

It says more about you who are not one and are still hanging around this place than about all of us

Am I? I am not sure anymore. What is real? What is imaginary? Who am I?

 

[yansusustories]

Who am I?

I think you changed your profile picture a while ago so I'm afraid I for one can't help with answering that question

 

[Freesia.Cutepearl]

The only issue is if you lied about something and the book actually promises something it won't go into

This one point right here, I do worry about.

I've hinted, probably rather strongly, I feel, that things will be dark, and not stay so light and moral high grounds. Both with Tags such as "Dark" but also the Title itself. "The Compassion & Terror ..."

Lilith is going to be torn by her human desires for love and joy, and the fear, hatred, and bloodlust arising from her Trauma as well as circumstance and manipulation.

I hope to eventually create a contrast, a Jekyll and Hyde if you will between her inner turmoil, that will affect the world at large, eventually.

I have been considering whether or not the "Horror" genre would be too wrong for my story, I do want to explore horror elements, but it's not likely to be a constant or central focus. I give genres more weight and consideration than tags, I've included some tags, like Futanari because I expect Lilith to experiment at some point.

Also, while I am using the "Smut" tag, I never intended it to be a big feature, more just, I wanted to explore writing everything, and not be stuck in a situation where, two characters like each other and unlike real humans, stay perpetually in PG 13 territory. Real people have sex, for many reasons. Real people are lude, we all fantasize, it's part of being human.

 

[Queenfisher]

This one point right here, I do worry about.

I've hinted, probably rather strongly, I feel, that things will be dark, and not stay so light and moral high grounds. Both with Tags such as "Dark" but also the Title itself. "The Compassion & Terror ..."

Lilith is going to be torn by her human desires for love and joy, and the fear, hatred, and bloodlust arising from her Trauma as well as circumstance and manipulation.

I hope to eventually create a contrast, a Jekyll and Hyde if you will between her inner turmoil, that will affect the world at large, eventually.

I have been considering whether or not the "Horror" genre would be too wrong for my story, I do want to explore horror elements, but it's not likely to be a constant or central focus. I give genres more weight and consideration than tags, I've included some tags, like Futanari because I expect Lilith to experiment at some point.

Also, while I am using the "Smut" tag, I never intended it to be a big feature, more just, I wanted to explore writing everything, and not be stuck in a situation where, two characters like each other and unlike real humans, stay perpetually in PG 13 territory. Real people have sex, for many reasons. Real people are lude, we all fantasize, it's part of being human.

It might be problematic down the line. I can't advise you anything -- it's too scary, especially when you have such big reader counts as you do! And then you say you never intended it to be super serious at the onset and wanting just to experiment first... I can imagine how big the pressure on you now is!



Personally, when I realized that some of my original tags and genres don't work, I changed them. For me, it was better to advertise it correctly to the future readers than to keep (and perhaps inadvertently trick) those who already were. But I wasn't having a lot at stakes because I have a small reader base in general.

If you do it -- you might face much harsher consequences which would be super scary to me,

I guess, try to ask among your actual readers what they think? Or maybe even here on SH, in a separate thread -- about advertising tags and genres but then rethinking them. There are a lot of very popular authors here who had probably encountered something of the sort, so they will be able to help you more than someone like me.

I think you changed your profile picture a while ago so I'm afraid I for one can't help with answering that question

Snot teardrop ---> loli ---> loli eating holding a VERY big bird. Simple ^^.

 

[yansusustories]

Personally, when I realized that some of my original tags and genres don't work, I changed them.

Since I already jumped in again, I wanna try and say something of value: I think that this way of going about things is very good. Sometimes, we just change our minds. I haven't had the problem with tags and genres so much (although I've adjusted some smaller stuff) but I have a synopsis that doesn't fit a story any longer and made some changes to content that I had more or less announced already in comments (e.g., I said a character shared with another story wouldn't appear but guess what? It happened after all because I couldn't help myself). It's not exactly the same but I think the solution is really just to go with what you think is better and announce it if something else was previously communicated to the readers.
I don't think anybody will be angry about it if they like the rest of the story. I think few people start reading something for just one tag and stick around if it doesn't appear soon. So the main reader base will likely be people that enjoy the story overall.

Simple ^^.

I don't think that's simple at all

 

[Freesia.Cutepearl]

It might be problematic down the line. I can't advise you anything -- it's too scary, especially when you have such big reader counts as you do! And then you say you never intended it to be super serious at the onset and wanting just to experiment first... I can imagine how big the pressure on you now is!

I've tried to be clear with it as time goes along, for example, there is a huge tell in her 2nd meeting with Izanami in chapter 9.

Spoiler: Excerpt of 2nd Meeting with Izanami

With a sly smile, Izanami replied, “I have my reasons, I will tell you eventually if I feel you are ready.” Pausing to savor another puff from her pipe, she tilts her head back slightly as she expels the smoke cloud, before looking towards Lilith as she speaks, “As for who made it, is it not obvious by now? Another God created it.”

Lilith frowned slightly as she questioned, “What is your relationship to this other God?”

Izanami’s lips curled into a devious smile as she simply responded, “Mmm, let us suppose, dear, that he is not exactly on friendly terms.”

It was as Lilith feared, nervously she asked for confirmation, “This world belongs to that other God?”

Still smiling, Izanami replied with a chuckle, “For the time being.”

Lilith could feel her heart beginning to race as she offered up her next question, “What are you expecting of me here?”

Izanami’s expression became warmer as she spoke sweetly, “My Dear, you need not concern yourself for now.”

Lilith’s anxiety rose to match her quickened heartbeat, as she began to speak “But I am concerned, I know nothing about anything, I can’t speak to anyone to learn, the RPG system won’t give me spells, where do I even get this ‘training’ I need? Worse yet, people tried to kill me, some maniac wants to experiment on me. I have no idea how to use most of my abilities, there’s barely a paragraph for most of them and some are just garbled text. I feel completely unprepared for anything!” She was breathing very heavily now, after her rant she was clearly agitated.

Looking at Lilith with a smile across her face, Izanami took another puff of her pipe and simply responded, “I see.”

Lilith felt angry, she understood that she was meant to be used, she was going to be Izanami’s tool, she didn’t really care, it was better than being in that hell of reliving her murder, but the anger, and frustration of it all, her past life, the murder, this world, feeling like a clueless toy, it erupted from her before she realized it, she found herself standing over the table, her claws ripped into the table as she slashed at the tray of fancy snacks, scattering them into the void.

“Mmhmhmhm, the passionate rage within your heart is exceptional, my dear,” Izanami chuckled as Lilith continued to stand there maintaining her angry posture while breathing heavily.

She stood there a moment, facing an unfazed Izanami who simply took another puff from her pipe. Further frustrated by Izanami’s continued nonchalant attitude, Lilith growls, “Use me how you like but be honest with me!”

Izanami seemed unfazed, exhaling a puff of smoke as she replied, “I promised to discuss your concerns, I never promised that you would like the answers.”

Like a marionette whose strings were cut, Lilith collapsed to her knees, as her anger and frustration drained from her like water down a bathtub with the drain plug removed. ‘What am I doing?’ she thought to herself, confused by her sudden outburst. Her attention was shifted away from her thoughts as Izanami laughed in a cackle.

Tears began to flow from Lilith’s eyes, her emotions felt twisted and jumbled together into an unrecognizable mess. She did not know what she was supposed to do, or why she felt the way she did. She was questioning who she even was.

As Izanami stopped laughing she addressed Lilith again, “Mmm, sorry Dear, I stoked the anger in your soul a bit. It lurks within you like a monster beneath a still lake, it can make a powerful ally but be mindful lest it consume you.”

Lilith continued to stay in her slumped position, without raising her head to look at Izanami, she said in a wobbly voice, “What am I even supposed to do? I don’t understand the world, and I can’t speak to anyone to learn, how can I do anything for you when I don’t feel prepared in the slightest?”

“For now, simply survive and grow. Do not concern yourself with time. An unbloomed Rose is of no use to me.” Izanami responded coolly as she took another puff of her pipe, exhaling the sickly sweet smoke in Lilith’s direction.

As the puff of smoke settled around Lilith she could smell it as she unwittingly took in a deep breath, realizing when she exhaled that she was back within the city, still leaning against the wall, only instead of the pendant in her hand, was a champagne glass filled with the same drink as before.

And again in chapter 14

Spoiler: Chapter 14 Excerpt, Lilith fights her Bloodlust

I can barely avoid shaking as I try to reign in my fury, probably more afraid of myself than the people in this room are of me right now, I look toward the naked, former top hat man, and demand of him, “There will be no auction, bring them to me, I am releasing the girl from your care,” my voice wavering as I struggle to maintain my coherence and calm myself down as I begin to take many long deep breaths.

The room seems to freeze around me as stillness takes over, it’s occupants unmoving and silent. Eventually, I realize nothing is really happening and my frustration breaks the stalemate as I clench my fists tightly and simply ‘shout’ one word as loudly as I can with all of my intent, “NOW!”

Finally things begin to happen as I can hear some of these ants begin to scurry to obey my command. About time. Right now I feel as if I could kill the lot of them on a whim. Yet they just stand there and gawk at me as they cower in fear. If I could go back to earth I would make all of those people who hurt me and Evelyn feel the suffering they caused others, over and over, I would make it become their entire existence, they would only know their suffering, that which they inflict upon others. If only I had this power then, I could have saved… saved... I… saved Lilac.

I look over towards Lilac and feel a little calmer as I try to smile at her, I lean closer to her and she recoils away from me in fear like the rest of the people here. I realize right away I’m losing myself and my entire purpose here was to save Lilac, just what the fuck am I doing now?! And what am I becoming?!

As I myself recoil away, I stare at her meekly, ashamed of myself. I notice she has a collar around her neck and remember back to when I first noticed it as a spider, and could nearly slap myself on the head. I gesture meekly towards her neck and ask, “I don’t want to hurt you, I… uh… does that collar hurt?” my hand is shaking as I worry about what sort of monster I am. I feel so ashamed of scaring her, am I no better than when those men were scaring Evelyn?

As well as many other small references sprinkled about.

 

[Queenfisher]

I've tried to be clear with it as time goes along, for example, there is a huge tell in her 2nd meeting with Izanami in chapter 9.

Spoiler: Excerpt of 2nd Meeting with Izanami

With a sly smile, Izanami replied, “I have my reasons, I will tell you eventually if I feel you are ready.” Pausing to savor another puff from her pipe, she tilts her head back slightly as she expels the smoke cloud, before looking towards Lilith as she speaks, “As for who made it, is it not obvious by now? Another God created it.”

Lilith frowned slightly as she questioned, “What is your relationship to this other God?”

Izanami’s lips curled into a devious smile as she simply responded, “Mmm, let us suppose, dear, that he is not exactly on friendly terms.”

It was as Lilith feared, nervously she asked for confirmation, “This world belongs to that other God?”

Still smiling, Izanami replied with a chuckle, “For the time being.”

Lilith could feel her heart beginning to race as she offered up her next question, “What are you expecting of me here?”

Izanami’s expression became warmer as she spoke sweetly, “My Dear, you need not concern yourself for now.”

Lilith’s anxiety rose to match her quickened heartbeat, as she began to speak “But I am concerned, I know nothing about anything, I can’t speak to anyone to learn, the RPG system won’t give me spells, where do I even get this ‘training’ I need? Worse yet, people tried to kill me, some maniac wants to experiment on me. I have no idea how to use most of my abilities, there’s barely a paragraph for most of them and some are just garbled text. I feel completely unprepared for anything!” She was breathing very heavily now, after her rant she was clearly agitated.

Looking at Lilith with a smile across her face, Izanami took another puff of her pipe and simply responded, “I see.”

Lilith felt angry, she understood that she was meant to be used, she was going to be Izanami’s tool, she didn’t really care, it was better than being in that hell of reliving her murder, but the anger, and frustration of it all, her past life, the murder, this world, feeling like a clueless toy, it erupted from her before she realized it, she found herself standing over the table, her claws ripped into the table as she slashed at the tray of fancy snacks, scattering them into the void.

“Mmhmhmhm, the passionate rage within your heart is exceptional, my dear,” Izanami chuckled as Lilith continued to stand there maintaining her angry posture while breathing heavily.

She stood there a moment, facing an unfazed Izanami who simply took another puff from her pipe. Further frustrated by Izanami’s continued nonchalant attitude, Lilith growls, “Use me how you like but be honest with me!”

Izanami seemed unfazed, exhaling a puff of smoke as she replied, “I promised to discuss your concerns, I never promised that you would like the answers.”

Like a marionette whose strings were cut, Lilith collapsed to her knees, as her anger and frustration drained from her like water down a bathtub with the drain plug removed. ‘What am I doing?’ she thought to herself, confused by her sudden outburst. Her attention was shifted away from her thoughts as Izanami laughed in a cackle.

Tears began to flow from Lilith’s eyes, her emotions felt twisted and jumbled together into an unrecognizable mess. She did not know what she was supposed to do, or why she felt the way she did. She was questioning who she even was.

As Izanami stopped laughing she addressed Lilith again, “Mmm, sorry Dear, I stoked the anger in your soul a bit. It lurks within you like a monster beneath a still lake, it can make a powerful ally but be mindful lest it consume you.”

Lilith continued to stay in her slumped position, without raising her head to look at Izanami, she said in a wobbly voice, “What am I even supposed to do? I don’t understand the world, and I can’t speak to anyone to learn, how can I do anything for you when I don’t feel prepared in the slightest?”

“For now, simply survive and grow. Do not concern yourself with time. An unbloomed Rose is of no use to me.” Izanami responded coolly as she took another puff of her pipe, exhaling the sickly sweet smoke in Lilith’s direction.

As the puff of smoke settled around Lilith she could smell it as she unwittingly took in a deep breath, realizing when she exhaled that she was back within the city, still leaning against the wall, only instead of the pendant in her hand, was a champagne glass filled with the same drink as before.

And again in chapter 14

Spoiler: Chapter 14 Excerpt, Lilith fights her Bloodlust

I can barely avoid shaking as I try to reign in my fury, probably more afraid of myself than the people in this room are of me right now, I look toward the naked, former top hat man, and demand of him, “There will be no auction, bring them to me, I am releasing the girl from your care,” my voice wavering as I struggle to maintain my coherence and calm myself down as I begin to take many long deep breaths.

The room seems to freeze around me as stillness takes over, it’s occupants unmoving and silent. Eventually, I realize nothing is really happening and my frustration breaks the stalemate as I clench my fists tightly and simply ‘shout’ one word as loudly as I can with all of my intent, “NOW!”

Finally things begin to happen as I can hear some of these ants begin to scurry to obey my command. About time. Right now I feel as if I could kill the lot of them on a whim. Yet they just stand there and gawk at me as they cower in fear. If I could go back to earth I would make all of those people who hurt me and Evelyn feel the suffering they caused others, over and over, I would make it become their entire existence, they would only know their suffering, that which they inflict upon others. If only I had this power then, I could have saved… saved... I… saved Lilac.

I look over towards Lilac and feel a little calmer as I try to smile at her, I lean closer to her and she recoils away from me in fear like the rest of the people here. I realize right away I’m losing myself and my entire purpose here was to save Lilac, just what the fuck am I doing now?! And what am I becoming?!

As I myself recoil away, I stare at her meekly, ashamed of myself. I notice she has a collar around her neck and remember back to when I first noticed it as a spider, and could nearly slap myself on the head. I gesture meekly towards her neck and ask, “I don’t want to hurt you, I… uh… does that collar hurt?” my hand is shaking as I worry about what sort of monster I am. I feel so ashamed of scaring her, am I no better than when those men were scaring Evelyn?

As well as many other small references sprinkled about.

Since I haven't read the rest of it, I have only the thinnest of understandings of what you mean with these quotes.

But -- just as an aside,

Readers of fiction are interpretative. It might astound you how much stuff people can ignore, twist, misconstrue, or overemphasize when evaluating art. That's what makes it so fun . The majority of creative writing is like Rorschach painting, dependent on the particular viewer/reader. The author cannot control all of their perceptions even when we overexplain to be more or less precise.

And your two quotes above are not very precise, I'd say. They still open a lot of room for interpretation.

What I mean by this is -- don't count on effectively communicating any messages or ideas through fiction. I am a very flamboyant reader, for instance. I almost always get something different from what the author intended, and no doubt I'm not the only one like that. If you are prepared for a lot of ambiguity and space for creative interpretation in your readers -- then good.

But if you want to effectively communicate something to them so that they get it 100%, then, to paraphrase the fakely-attributed quote by S. Goodwyn -- "I want a story. If you want to send a message, use Western Union". Or for SH users -- use Author's Notes.



Because otherwise, they WILL misunderstand and might even call back on you and claim that you are at fault for misleading them.