Magic is controlled by religious institutions

[Ilikewaterkusa]

Context: I am thinking of a stereotypical medieval fantasy setting.

Drawing some parallels with reality, religion has had an important weight in the history of humankind in its function of directing and moralizing people: forbidding attitudes, establishing by force a series of unbreakable moral laws (I mean, unbreakable for common people, the Church can send these rules to hell if it suits it), sexually repressing, initiating witch hunts.
(I am thinking mostly of religions related to Christianity, my little western mind does not allow me to think of other parts of the world).
It would not be strange to think that an institution with so much power would prohibit magic to the common people to ensure its hegemonic exercise of power.

I just think a story dealing with religious repression regarding magic would be interesting.

This is not limited to a group of commoners resisting and learning magic clandestinely, but also how the world of the story would change if religious institutions started to lose their power to other nascent institutions or some natural disaster (a State that starts to take shape and wants to break away from the Church, feudal lords who start to own large tracts of land and people and start to dislike giving religious tribute, some pandemic that leaves the world in ruins and starts a mass apostasy, that sort of thing).

In the case of the pandemic, if religious institutions accumulated all the knowledge about healing magic.... Would they let people die simply to control them, so that their health must always depend on the Church? Would all the hierarchies that make up these religious institutions agree to this? Couldn't some of them rebel by teaching these secrets to ordinary people, founding resistance groups?

I can also imagine a sort of medieval dystopia (with some elements of modern dystopia) where the Church subjugates absolutely every aspect of ordinary people's lives through magic.

Another possible scenario is that this leads to fights between many religious institutions with their different interests, resulting in feuds ranging from battles with hundreds of thousands of deaths to skirmishes between two religious people in a tavern.

Hell, do you want to write a love story between two individuals of different religions amidst all the repression? Go ahead.
You want people to use magic for sex in rebellion against religious repression? I guess you can too.

I think making magic almost taboo would give a sense of intimacy to people, as if that magic was part of them and the Church or Churches were cutting off this part of them, depriving them of their full potential. So magic would have a deeper meaning than just being pretty lights and destructive attacks (nothing wrong with that, I love it when a character blows up half the city with a superpower).

Also the use of magic would have its strong moral implications: could magic be used as a method of contraception? Would religions forbid this? Would they punish those who did this to themselves? If this contraception magic started to become public knowledge, how would it affect population growth? Would it age the population, reducing the labor force or religious adherents?

Church Fucking based af

 

[Zirrboy]

You do realize that paper was introduced to Europe only in the 13th century? And it took three other centuries for it to become commonplace. Including two centuries it took to invent the printing press.
Before that commonplace was parchment. Made from animal skin and very, very expensive. Everyone was very selective about its usage, not to mention that every book was a work of art made over the course of weeks.

Yes I do. What do you think I meant with this?

Of course there were undeniable hindrances from having everyone read it,

And I'm talking about the language, as well as behavior after the problems you mentioned were resolved.
That doesn't make what you said wrong, but neither can I see this as a disproval of my post in any capacity

Church Fucking based af

Yeah, we all need that bit of totalitarianism in our lives right about now.
People think too much and it's showing

 

[AKnightWithaKnife]

You do realize most people couldn’t read very well into the 1800s? The Bible was mainly told verball.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

Yes I do. What do you think I meant with this?

And I'm talking about the language, as well as behavior after the problems you mentioned were resolved.
That doesn't make what you said wrong, but neither can I see this as a disproval of my post in any capacity


Yeah, we all need that bit of totalitarianism in our lives right about now.
People think too much and it's showing

Yes. We literally do. It is in weakness and the discord and disorder of life which people turn to totalitarianism, but it is in competent and moral mind where government is effective yet not too small or too large.

 

[Zirrboy]

You do realize most people couldn’t read very well into the 1800s? The Bible was mainly told verball.

Yep, that doesn't mean that nobody could read though.
Merchants and the likes relied on written documents much earlier than that. But they couldn't read latin for the most part.

The ceremonies were spoken in latin, too, for a long time. Which shouldn't make sense if an-alphabets were the reason nobody bothered with translating the bible.

And if you're selling absolution for money on the basis of nobody but you completely understanding the faith the society is built on I am somewhat hesitant to call it faithful spread of the word.
The tenth tax, useful or not, was also often handwaved as something owed to the church by decree of the bible if I recall correctly.

Yes. We literally do. It is in weakness and the discord and disorder of life which people turn to totalitarianism, but it is in competent and moral mind where government is effective yet not too small or too large.

Meh, all morals proclaimed as betterment for society I've come across so far appeared pretty bullshit to me

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

Yep, that doesn't mean that nobody could read though.
Merchants and the likes relied on written documents much earlier than that. But they couldn't read latin for the most part.

The ceremonies were spoken in latin, too, for a long time. Which shouldn't make sense if an-alphabets were the reason nobody bothered with translating the bible.

And if you're selling absolution for money on the basis of nobody but you completely understanding the faith the society is built on I am somewhat hesitant to call it faithful spread of the word.
The tenth tax, useful or not, was also often handwaved as something owed to the church by decree of the bible if I recall correctly.


Meh, all morals proclaimed as betterment for society I've come across so far appeared pretty bullshit to me

opinion on pedophiles

 

[Zirrboy]

opinion on pedophiles

Which I have yet to hear about as "societal" aspect.

I don't like it personally, but if I forbid one detrimental aspect of others' lives I might as well go for all of them.
Drawing lines somewhere in between is about sentiment more than anything else.
(Which isn't supposed to be sarcasm, even if it might sound like it. Both choices are valid imo)

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

Which I have yet to hear about as "societal" aspect.

I don't like it personally, but if I forbid one detrimental aspect of others' lives I might as well go for all of them.
Drawing lines somewhere in between is about sentiment more than anything else.
(Which isn't supposed to be sarcasm, even if it might sound like it. Both choices are valid imo)

yes.

 

[longer]

Meh, all morals proclaimed as betterment for society I've come across so far appeared pretty bullshit to me

True. Really hate it when society tells me to wipe after shitting.

Which I have yet to hear about as "societal" aspect.

Pedophilia is bad for society because it warps how the younger generation views sexuality and is likely to lead to abuse due to the extreme imbalance between both parties. More importantly, the real danger is how the younger generation will grow up and view this as acceptable and perpetuate the practice since they perceive it as normal.

 

[Zirrboy]

True. Really hate it when society tells me to wipe after shitting.

You have made me recall rather disturbing memories.

Pedophilia is bad for society because it warps how the younger generation views sexuality and is likely to lead to abuse due to the extreme imbalance between both parties. More importantly, the real danger is how the younger generation will grow up and view this as acceptable and perpetuate the practice since they perceive it as normal.

People lived and abused each other for most of history with little to no concept of mental health or child safety.
Sure there are certain... losses, but almost any variant has them.

The thing is though, I lean towards the side of more regulation rather than less, which this pedophilia argument would fall into. The "bullshit" part about aforementioned norms for me lies in the separation between acceptable liberties and restrict-worthy error.

"Your freedom stops where another's begins" is a decent take, but twistable as most others.
Because where does it begin?
Almost all actions affect others and once you're at the point of weighing interests you've long since left what I can accept as universal

 

[Alfir]

Have you heard of Scientism?
It's an interesting concept that is intimately familiar how magic deceives people the same way how the backwards religion ranging from cults, shamans and stuff were influencing a community.

A dystopian community would be the best kind of setting in this magical world where the religious sects are monopolizing.

 

[BearlyAlive]

Church-controlled magic would most likely split the church a few times. At the end of it we'd have at least three different ones: One that forbids magic, one that uses magic to strenghten their position... Maybe even more like one forbids harm but teaches healing, templars throwing fireballs, invisibility magic spanish inquisition (nobody expects them) and more