MMO Races

Yorda

Villainess Yorda the Virtuous Flower of Evil
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Well, if this was an MMO that I was going to play, then it would be something crazy that currently doesn't exist. Currently, there is no MMO that has character customization and immersion to a level high enough to satisfy me. Character customization is the most important thing to me in all games. Since you are asking about an MMO that I would play, with a focus on races and balance, then I shall take the liberty to propose a completely new race system that currently doesn't exist in any game.

New Race System
*Hybrid races can exist, it is possible for characters and NPCs to have more than 1 racial heritage
*Each race has specific traits and variant traits that individuals can inherit, hybrids can inherit multiple traits but their power may be reduced in proportion to how much genetics/blood they have inherited from a particular race
*Each race has distinctive physical traits that can be inherited by hybrids to varying degrees, players would have a lot of physical appearance customization options with this
*Hybrid's stats are a combination built up from their genetic heritage, players can adjust their stat growth by allocating points, however, races that have strong inclinations towards particular stat types have fewer points that can be shuffled around. Players might get around this limitation by changing the amount of genetic inheritance they receive from their various races.
*The more races available the better, there should be like 50+ different races at least if it's not going to be generic AF, and these races shouldn't all be heavily humanoid
*More emphasis is given to race based culture, often games don't take unique culture seriously enough when crafting races
*There needs to be more monster type races, games always seem to heavily favour humans and humanoids, but when I ask myself if this is makes the games more fun the answer is no, it just makes things more generic. Eg. Trade a human city for a spiderkin city, and a stone castle is traded for a nature/spider inspired citadel, common leather/metal armour shops are turned into spidersilk plate armour shops, etc.
*Geography and national borders are deeply intertwined with racial territories, undead rule in barren and frigid lands, speed/flight based beasts rule in the plains, strong but low agility races dominate in forests and underground locations, island nations are a mix between aquatic races and many others, etc.
*More micro-nations, city-states, federations, and alliances exist due to the diversity of races

At one point in time I was trying to make the biggest comprehensive list of monsters/races that I could by searching everywhere. I never even really heard of half of them. I think a crazy MMO would have races like that, races that people have never heard of but are interesting and show deep creative involvement by the developers.

Edit: I think that some races are just flat out incompatible for hybridization without very strange circumstances. For example, let's say you want to create a plant race + undead race hybrid. They can't copulate and have a baby right? So maybe a person starts as a plant race character, but gets cursed, rots/withers/dies, and becomes an undead rotted plant race hybrid.

So perhaps, any time a person wants to create a hybrid race that combines majorly different categories, like artificial beings, plants, undead, energy beings, etc. there need to be really weird/unique circumstances.
 
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ohko

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At one point in time I was trying to make the biggest comprehensive list of monsters/races that I could by searching everywhere. I never even really heard of half of them. I think a crazy MMO would have races like that, races that people have never heard of but are interesting and show deep creative involvement by the developers.
So on this point -- do you prefer completely original made-up races (like those final fantasy races that the developers just invented?)

Or do you prefer that the races be borrowed from something existing already bizarre and random... like jabberwocky?
 

Yorda

Villainess Yorda the Virtuous Flower of Evil
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So on this point -- do you prefer completely original made-up races (like those final fantasy races that the developers just invented?)

Or do you prefer that the races be borrowed from something existing already bizarre and random... like jabberwocky?

It's hard for developers to make up good races, but FF staff have done a pretty good job with only humanoid type races (banga, viera, nu mou, moogles, etc). However, I feel that FF series doesn't have any monster type races with well developed language, culture, and civilization.

I believe that the grand majority of human creations are either conscious or subconscious amalgamations/combinations of different animal features, especially mythology. Medusa, just snake+woman. Pegasus, just horse+bird. Troll, goblin, orc, just fugly people. Elves, pointy ears+vegetarians. Halflings, short+human. These combinations are pretty mundane, but they work.

There are so many extremely bizarre creatures on this planet with insane traits that never get used. I see that as a creative failure.

Though I would like to point out that J.R.R. Tolkien did an fantastic job of giving different races cultures with real depth and uniqueness. Halflings, their homes, mannerisms, nature, all of it is very distinctive and well developed.

One of the best series to introduce fantastically wonderful races is Zelda. Old Zelda games have the Goron, Zora, and Deku races. Each of these races is extremely distinct and their cultures are so well-developed. They are truly a part of their worlds and fit with their geographical locations and ecology. Really, this might be one of the best examples of good race design in history. I'm not even that much of a Zelda fan, but when I think about right now it's something I never noticed before.

My preference, hmmm.
() Zelda does an amazing job.
() Races need to have a unique culture, otherwise they just seem sloppy and generic.
() Races need to be diverse. Just having variations of humans is no longer enough in contemporary fantasy, but forcing bizarre original races without reason or good development also is no good.
() Races should seem organic. They should fit with the geography and be part of the interconnected environment. The development of their civilization and the way they live their lives should be a product of their unique existence. Example, elves aren't just pointy-eared people. They have a deep connection with nature and the forest that has shaped their people for thousands of years.

Edit: Just look at these Deku people from Zelda. Incredible character design.


Such a rich feeling of culture and attention to detail. The deku chief/king looking guy has a seed flower staff and pompous bulb crown. The princess looking character has flowers, vines, and colourful leaves decorating her. Fruit earrings. The butler has a vine moustache and leaf bow tie. Damn.

All sorts of questions are going through my mind. How do they celebrate? Do they have special holidays, feasts, and rituals? Marriage? How do they make babies? What's it like to be a deku mother/father? What are their tastes like? How to they build homes, farm, what do they eat? How do they view other races? How do deku race people live and die?

Maybe a deku mother would fawn over her child saying the red leaf on his head is soooo cute. Maybe deku race people reproduce by pollination? Maybe babies are born from seeds?

Maybe deku race people die by withering during old age slowly? Humans experience organ failure, but maybe deku people start to experience splitting bark or slow rot of one of their limbs. Maybe old deku race people get tired and start to sleep for longer and longer periods of time until they stop waking up altogether and just root themselves as normal plants becoming their own gravestones. It's almost horrifying. Just imagine a deku girl visiting a tree that used to be her parent before they 'died' feeling great sorrow and attachment to the forest and homeland that they protect from other races that don't understand their culture.

I have like a hundred of these ideas for deku/plant people now and it's just blowing my ******* mind.

There is so much depth and potential in this race.
 
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Yorda

Villainess Yorda the Virtuous Flower of Evil
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It's hard for developers to make up good races, but FF staff have done a pretty good job with only humanoid type races (banga, viera, nu mou, moogles, etc). However, I feel that FF series doesn't have any monster type races with well developed language, culture, and civilization.

I believe that the grand majority of human creations are either conscious or subconscious amalgamations/combinations of different animal features, especially mythology. Medusa, just snake+woman. Pegasus, just horse+bird. Troll, goblin, orc, just fugly people. Elves, pointy ears+vegetarians. Halflings, short+human. These combinations are pretty mundane, but they work.

There are so many extremely bizarre creatures on this planet with insane traits that never get used. I see that as a creative failure.

Though I would like to point out that J.R.R. Tolkien did an fantastic job of giving different races cultures with real depth and uniqueness. Halflings, their homes, mannerisms, nature, all of it is very distinctive and well developed.

One of the best series to introduce fantastically wonderful races is Zelda. Old Zelda games have the Goron, Zora, and Deku races. Each of these races is extremely distinct and their cultures are so well-developed. They are truly a part of their worlds and fit with their geographical locations and ecology. Really, this might be one of the best examples of good race design in history. I'm not even that much of a Zelda fan, but when I think about right now it's something I never noticed before.

My preference, hmmm.
() Zelda does an amazing job.
() Races need to have a unique culture, otherwise they just seem sloppy and generic.
() Races need to be diverse. Just having variations of humans is no longer enough in contemporary fantasy, but forcing bizarre original races without reason or good development also is no good.
() Races should seem organic. They should fit with the geography and be part of the interconnected environment. The development of their civilization and the way they live their lives should be a product of their unique existence. Example, elves aren't just pointy-eared people. They have a deep connection with nature and the forest that has shaped their people for thousands of years.

Edit: Just look at these Deku people from Zelda. Incredible character design.


Such a rich feeling of culture and attention to detail. The deku chief/king looking guy has a seed flower staff and pompous bulb crown. The princess looking character has flowers, vines, and colourful leaves decorating her. Fruit earrings. The butler has a vine moustache and leaf bow tie. Damn.

All sorts of questions are going through my mind. How do they celebrate? Do they have special holidays, feasts, and rituals? Marriage? How do they make babies? What's it like to be a deku mother/father? What are their tastes like? How to they build homes, farm, what do they eat? How do they view other races? How do deku race people live and die?

Maybe a deku mother would fawn over her child saying the red leaf on his head is soooo cute. Maybe deku race people reproduce by pollination? Maybe babies are born from seeds?

Maybe deku race people die by withering during old age slowly? Humans experience organ failure, but maybe deku people start to experience splitting bark or slow rot of one of their limbs. Maybe old deku race people get tired and start to sleep for longer and longer periods of time until they stop waking up altogether and just root themselves as normal plants becoming their own gravestones. It's almost horrifying. Just imagine a deku girl visiting a tree that used to be her parent before they 'died' feeling great sorrow and attachment to the forest and homeland that they protect from other races that don't understand their culture.

There is so much depth and potential in this race.

This is making me second guess my entire creative philosophy as an author. Maybe I can create a story one day with seriously diverse and non-human races like this one day. I feel so stupid for not being more creative when the world is filled with so many good examples like this.
 

ohko

tilda~ me~ home~ ♪
Joined
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Messages
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It's hard for developers to make up good races, but FF staff have done a pretty good job with only humanoid type races (banga, viera, nu mou, moogles, etc). However, I feel that FF series doesn't have any monster type races with well developed language, culture, and civilization.

I believe that the grand majority of human creations are either conscious or subconscious amalgamations/combinations of different animal features, especially mythology. Medusa, just snake+woman. Pegasus, just horse+bird. Troll, goblin, orc, just fugly people. Elves, pointy ears+vegetarians. Halflings, short+human. These combinations are pretty mundane, but they work.

There are so many extremely bizarre creatures on this planet with insane traits that never get used. I see that as a creative failure.

Though I would like to point out that J.R.R. Tolkien did an fantastic job of giving different races cultures with real depth and uniqueness. Halflings, their homes, mannerisms, nature, all of it is very distinctive and well developed.

One of the best series to introduce fantastically wonderful races is Zelda. Old Zelda games have the Goron, Zora, and Deku races. Each of these races is extremely distinct and their cultures are so well-developed. They are truly a part of their worlds and fit with their geographical locations and ecology. Really, this might be one of the best examples of good race design in history. I'm not even that much of a Zelda fan, but when I think about right now it's something I never noticed before.

My preference, hmmm.
() Zelda does an amazing job.
() Races need to have a unique culture, otherwise they just seem sloppy and generic.
() Races need to be diverse. Just having variations of humans is no longer enough in contemporary fantasy, but forcing bizarre original races without reason or good development also is no good.
() Races should seem organic. They should fit with the geography and be part of the interconnected environment. The development of their civilization and the way they live their lives should be a product of their unique existence. Example, elves aren't just pointy-eared people. They have a deep connection with nature and the forest that has shaped their people for thousands of years.

Edit: Just look at these Deku people from Zelda. Incredible character design.


Such a rich feeling of culture and attention to detail. The deku chief/king looking guy has a seed flower staff and pompous bulb crown. The princess looking character has flowers, vines, and colourful leaves decorating her. Fruit earrings. The butler has a vine moustache and leaf bow tie. Damn.

All sorts of questions are going through my mind. How do they celebrate? Do they have special holidays, feasts, and rituals? Marriage? How do they make babies? What's it like to be a deku mother/father? What are their tastes like? How to they build homes, farm, what do they eat? How do they view other races? How do deku race people live and die?

Maybe a deku mother would fawn over her child saying the red leaf on his head is soooo cute. Maybe deku race people reproduce by pollination? Maybe babies are born from seeds?

Maybe deku race people die by withering during old age slowly? Humans experience organ failure, but maybe deku people start to experience splitting bark or slow rot of one of their limbs. Maybe old deku race people get tired and start to sleep for longer and longer periods of time until they stop waking up altogether and just root themselves as normal plants becoming their own gravestones. It's almost horrifying. Just imagine a deku girl visiting a tree that used to be her parent before they 'died' feeling great sorrow and attachment to the forest and homeland that they protect from other races that don't understand their culture.

There is so much depth and potential in this race.
Another question I have is how to reconcile conflicting or opposing canons?

One of the problems I encountered when trying to make a Lizardmen race was that there were many existing preconceptions about Lizardmen already out there (DND, Warhammer), and I felt compelled to figure out a way to synthesize the various existing stuff so that people wouldn’t ask things like (“Why don’t your elves have pointy ears”).

The warhammer series has extremely extensive lore, yet I also felt reluctant to flat out adopt it over more stereotypical perceptions about Lizardmen (i.e. in Overlord)... yet at the same time I was worried about alienating people who felt like X race should have Y qualities thanks to canon established elsewhere.

How would you recommend resolving this?

Of course, there obviously isn’t this kind of problem if you only create a new races from scratch, but I fine that I inevitably run into this when trying to have an inclusive “you can play any species” approach.

Do you make your elves vegetarian or do you buck the classic norm and do something different? And at what point do you upset your user base because you deviated too far from their expectations/desires?
 

Yorda

Villainess Yorda the Virtuous Flower of Evil
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Another question I have is how to reconcile conflicting or opposing canons?

One of the problems I encountered when trying to make a Lizardmen race was that there were many existing preconceptions about Lizardmen already out there (DND, Warhammer), and I felt compelled to figure out a way to synthesize the various existing stuff so that people wouldn’t ask things like (“Why don’t your elves have pointy ears”).

The warhammer series has extremely extensive lore, yet I also felt reluctant to flat out adopt it over more stereotypical perceptions about Lizardmen (i.e. in Overlord)... yet at the same time I was worried about alienating people who felt like X race should have Y qualities thanks to canon established elsewhere.

How would you recommend resolving this?

Of course, there obviously isn’t this kind of problem if you only create a new races from scratch, but I fine that I inevitably run into this when trying to have an inclusive “you can play any species” approach.

Do you make your elves vegetarian or do you buck the classic norm and do something different? And at what point do you upset your user base because you deviated too far from their expectations/desires?

I think that giving too much consideration to being consistent with other stories' canons or pandering to stereotypes is effort given in a completely wrong direction. Whatever game a person is making, or whatever a story a person is writing, their primary concern should be on more important things like gameplay, plot, world-building, and characters. Plus, trying really hard to fit the mould or roll with existing stereotypes makes it tough sometimes, like fitting square blocks through round holes or fitting puzzle pieces together when they are obviously wrong.

If an elf-like race isn't necessary then don't include them. If an elf-like race is necessary, include them. If the elf-like race deviates significantly from stereotypical elves, then name them something different because they are different; don't confuse people. If a necessary elf-like race differs from normal elves but not too significantly, then just classify them as a variant race and introduce some background to clarify, eg. dark elves, mine elves, plain elves, wood elves. Maybe those elves have different historical roots, religions, diverged from their ancestors, have a different ideology, etc.
 

BenJepheneT

Light Up Gold - Parquet Courts
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I think that giving too much consideration to being consistent with other stories' canons or pandering to stereotypes is effort given in a completely wrong direction. Whatever game a person is making, or whatever a story a person is writing, their primary concern should be on more important things like gameplay, plot, world-building, and characters. Plus, trying really hard to fit the mould or roll with existing stereotypes makes it tough sometimes, like fitting square blocks through round holes or fitting puzzle pieces together when they are obviously wrong.

If an elf-like race isn't necessary then don't include them. If an elf-like race is necessary, include them. If the elf-like race deviates significantly from stereotypical elves, then name them something different because they are different; don't confuse people. If a necessary elf-like race differs from normal elves but not too significantly, then just classify them as a variant race and introduce some background to clarify, eg. dark elves, mine elves, plain elves, wood elves. Maybe those elves have different historical roots, religions, diverged from their ancestors, have a different ideology, etc.
i feel like people constantly give Berserk shit because their fantasy setting is generic and doesn't deviate from the normal token Tolkien copy without considering that the setting actually complements the story and that the story complements the setting. it never felt like a bard's tale about some crazy swordsman travelling the lands he had no means of changing. it felt like the man is changing and shaping the adequately built world he's put in.

i think the idea that most people have behind their fantasy settings is that they have to make it UNIQUE and HUGE and JAM PACKED OF LORE and WORTHY OF A DEDICATED WIKIA PAGE. no, fucko. if your race serves no other purpose other than to be there, then what's the fucken point? warhammer's lore worked because every race was a factor and an answer to a question of another race's motivation and actions. it's not a lore jam where the writers sat in a room, snort whites and come up with ideas. they're meticulously crafted so that they players can utilize that world and lore to make good DnD campaigns and games out of it. they're not flailed buckets; they're, and i can't stress this enough, METICULOUSLY CRAFTED TO FIT THEIR NEEDS.

back on Berserk, the world is lacklusture when compared to the other fantasy worlds, but as its own, it stands as one of the most believable fantasy settings out there. there is never unnecessary activity going on beyond what the characters interact with, and with that, Guts actually feels more influential to the world around him than most protagonists do. every other fantasy lore try to play how big their races really are, with hundreds of years of unneeded backstory and lore behind, only for the protagonist to go there and SHAPE THEIR TRADITIONS. if they're this easy to be influenced, then what's the fucken point of the backstory then? in the other hand, Berserk shapes its races and lore with themes and motivations that actually feels personal. the apostles and their desire to be greater than human. the sea god and their parasite behavior. the cursed beasts motivated by an emperor's will to climb the ladders and rule the world. they're all believable with their motives and traits and backstories that actually makes sense and contribute to the plot, to which when Guts comes along and ruin their plans, shows just how powerful Guts really is. he is just a suffering wanderer, trying to get to his destination and every race he passes he just demolishes. his motives don't even correlate with the other guys, and he just smashes right through, telling them to 'get the fuck out of his way'.

if you've ever wondered how guts ended up on most Top 10 Most Powerful Anime Characters aside from the typical shounen isekai gifted lords, it's the setting, and how small guts really is compared to their small but densely layered universe, and how, despite Gut's relatively small role, still manages to shape the day everytime his Dragon Slayer lay waste to any apostle. along with Muira's viceral art style and Gut's golden backstory, the setting and races complement the story and the plot, thus making it not only seem real, but violent and surreal at the same time.
 

Astaroth

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So here's a quick question. Suppose you're going to play a fantasy MMO -- what races would you want to see?

The only requirement is that it needs to be somewhat balanced... as there really shouldn't be one race that is far OP over the other ones.
I mean why wouldn't I want as many races as possible?

The only reason not to have countless (playable) races is because generally speaking every race added would make it more difficult, expensive, and time consuming for the developers to develop the game; but that's not something I as a player would care about, right?


And even "unbalanced" races are ok, I'd totally be fine even if some players could become dragons or something that are 100 times as strong as your average human player could be.

All that really matters is that the game is still enjoyable to play; which it wouldn't be if there's a million dragons flying around and razing the entire game world to the ground, but just because a race is playable it doesn't have to mean that everyone gets to play as it.

For example, continuing the dragon example, there might only be a few player 'slots' available in the game, say only 10players of the entire playerbase is allowed to be dragons at one time. And what if dragon players have permadeath unlike regular players? Meaning they'd have to start over from scratch if they were to die.

And what if even if they're dragons, they start as newborn dragon whelps that are still very weak and most of them don't even survive until they grow big enough?

What if their starting zones are super dangerous?


Imo, saying that certain races wouldn't be ok to be playable because it would be unbalanced is part of the problem that plagues MMORPGs and why they're so boring.
Well, if this was an MMO that I was going to play, then it would be something crazy that currently doesn't exist. Currently, there is no MMO that has character customization and immersion to a level high enough to satisfy me. Character customization is the most important thing to me in all games. Since you are asking about an MMO that I would play, with a focus on races and balance, then I shall take the liberty to propose a completely new race system that currently doesn't exist in any game.

New Race System
*Hybrid races can exist, it is possible for characters and NPCs to have more than 1 racial heritage
*Each race has specific traits and variant traits that individuals can inherit, hybrids can inherit multiple traits but their power may be reduced in proportion to how much genetics/blood they have inherited from a particular race
*Each race has distinctive physical traits that can be inherited by hybrids to varying degrees, players would have a lot of physical appearance customization options with this
*Hybrid's stats are a combination built up from their genetic heritage, players can adjust their stat growth by allocating points, however, races that have strong inclinations towards particular stat types have fewer points that can be shuffled around. Players might get around this limitation by changing the amount of genetic inheritance they receive from their various races.
*The more races available the better, there should be like 50+ different races at least if it's not going to be generic AF, and these races shouldn't all be heavily humanoid
*More emphasis is given to race based culture, often games don't take unique culture seriously enough when crafting races
*There needs to be more monster type races, games always seem to heavily favour humans and humanoids, but when I ask myself if this is makes the games more fun the answer is no, it just makes things more generic. Eg. Trade a human city for a spiderkin city, and a stone castle is traded for a nature/spider inspired citadel, common leather/metal armour shops are turned into spidersilk plate armour shops, etc.
*Geography and national borders are deeply intertwined with racial territories, undead rule in barren and frigid lands, speed/flight based beasts rule in the plains, strong but low agility races dominate in forests and underground locations, island nations are a mix between aquatic races and many others, etc.
*More micro-nations, city-states, federations, and alliances exist due to the diversity of races

At one point in time I was trying to make the biggest comprehensive list of monsters/races that I could by searching everywhere. I never even really heard of half of them. I think a crazy MMO would have races like that, races that people have never heard of but are interesting and show deep creative involvement by the developers.

Edit: I think that some races are just flat out incompatible for hybridization without very strange circumstances. For example, let's say you want to create a plant race + undead race hybrid. They can't copulate and have a baby right? So maybe a person starts as a plant race character, but gets cursed, rots/withers/dies, and becomes an undead rotted plant race hybrid.

So perhaps, any time a person wants to create a hybrid race that combines majorly different categories, like artificial beings, plants, undead, energy beings, etc. there need to be really weird/unique circumstances.
Someone else who gets it!
 

Yorda

Villainess Yorda the Virtuous Flower of Evil
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I mean why wouldn't I want as many races as possible?

The only reason not to have countless (playable) races is because generally speaking every race added would make it more difficult, expensive, and time consuming for the developers to develop the game; but that's not something I as a player would care about, right?


And even "unbalanced" races are ok, I'd totally be fine even if some players could become dragons or something that are 100 times as strong as your average human player could be.

All that really matters is that the game is still enjoyable to play; which it wouldn't be if there's a million dragons flying around and razing the entire game world to the ground, but just because a race is playable it doesn't have to mean that everyone gets to play as it.

For example, continuing the dragon example, there might only be a few player 'slots' available in the game, say only 10players of the entire playerbase is allowed to be dragons at one time. And what if dragon players have permadeath unlike regular players? Meaning they'd have to start over from scratch if they were to die.

And what if even if they're dragons, they start as newborn dragon whelps that are still very weak and most of them don't even survive until they grow big enough?

What if their starting zones are super dangerous?


Imo, saying that certain races wouldn't be ok to be playable because it would be unbalanced is part of the problem that plagues MMORPGs and why they're so boring.

It sounds very difficult for people to design and maybe not that fun for multiplayer. There would be so many people who want to try making a dragon character for the difficulty, but the game itself would prevent them from playing because they wouldn't be able to make a dragon character. I've played enough games that don't let me enjoy things the way I want and I'm sick of them, especially since I was a PC gamer (glory to mods!).

I would say that rather than making a MMO where you limit the majority of players freedom, it might be a more fun game if it was just single player instead without restrictions. Or the game could be something where small teams could play together without restrictions.

Someone else who gets it!

You know what I think? Races generally fall under initial character customization, which is pretty important to me. Players should have a lot of freedom and control over their characters. So many MMOs have very good character creation, but it's limited to just changing somewhat superficial physical features like eyebrows. I'm not aware of any character creators where people can make serious changes to a character's body shape and physique (like adding an extra arm or tail or horn). And there don't seem to be any MMOs that incorporate race changes into the game. I'll give an example. Your character gets cursed and over time they undergo undeath and become an undead. I think that one of the elder scrolls games had something like this with werewolves or vampirism.

In addition to this, games really limit skill trees. I understand that they do this for the purpose of imposing PVP and PVE balance for their content, but it has always prevented me from making a truly unique character. Personally, I might be happier playing a single player game with the biggest baddest skill tree system I've ever seen (a game where nobody has to worry about restricting players gameplay for balance).

I'm going make a new thread for people to describe their ideal game rather than just dump a hot mess here.
 
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