My issue or my opinion about BL and gender bender novel

[Queenfisher]

@yansusustories
Lol, SHF threw a tantrum at me for writing such a long post! Sorry it needs to get separated! This is part 2 of 3!


Running the Linguistic Code for "male" with only one Line set to "1"​

I decided to do an experiment to see if the linguistic code for a "male" character can still run and project an image of a male into the mind of the reader when all lines are omitted save for one.

Here are the results. And also -- when you view them, please note that it's not about whether you "actually perceive the male in the example" -- but rather if "you CAN perceive the example offered as a male". If you can -- then the code can run successfully with 90% removed information. Which would imply that a "male character" sets of attributes and characteristics are incredibly thin and volatile and can be manipulated (hacked) easily. And that even so -- they would still work.

It's all under spoiler because there are 13 examples overall @_@. For each example, there is a sub-spoiler note below revealing the actual code "running" so to say ^^. Look at it only after you guess which values these were!

Spoiler: Examples of Linguistic Code for "male"

John walked down the armageddon-melted landscape. Breath -- hitched, heart-rate -- up all the way, vision -- blurring. John knew blacking out any moment was the most certain possibility. But it was not an option.
"Gods damnit it! Fucking werebeasts..."
Blood mixed with sweat on John's tongue.
Please, do not stop.
Please keep going.
John had to run, and keep on running no matter how hard it would get.


Male naming convention -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


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He had no idea where the girl came from on this lonely drifting wood in the middle of the still ocean, but he knew he had to help her. Why not? It wasn't like he had anything better to do. And she looked so harmless.
So... innocent.
He leaned over the board and extended his arm only to have the sharpest teeth in existence crunch down on his fingers.


Male pronoun -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


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Cleito sized the other person up and down, derisive. What a shameful creature. The barbarians from the north had lost all sense of what constituted dignity, it seemed.

The barbarian in question wore a bizarre shirt -- bulky and made of wool, but so bright and gaudy, it made Cleito's eyes fill with tears. On the poor wretch's bottom sat the most embarrassing piece of clothing Cleito had ever seen. Something like flutes of fabric in a rigid pale blue material, hugging the person's legs -- thighs, ankles, even the crotch area -- in an extremely suggestive manner.

Can not be a male, Cleito thought with horror. No man in their right mind would put such exposing items on themselves in clear daylight!

"Hey, girl," Cleito said. "Cover yourself up! Or people will drag you to the agora to shame you!"

Sam blinked blearily at some pompous... young chick (?). She had long hair and beautiful long lashes and wore what could only be perceived as a skimpy hippie dress. And for some reason, the chick now tried really hard to kick Sam's ankle with her foppish little golden sandal.

What a cute girl, Sam thought, instantly forgetting about having just isekai'ed into hell knew where.



Male stereotyped clothing (western culture, separate) -- 1
Male stereotyped clothing (ancient Greece, separate) -- 1
Female and gender-neutral nouns (applied across) -- 1
Male and female pronouns (applied across and misattributed) -- 1

All other values -- UNKNOWN


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The father led the sheep across the wasteland. The gods chased after, hurricanes, and thunder, and locust swarms marring the sky above.
But the men kept their guard. The houses they erected, the wilderness they conquered. Their fellowship was as strong as ever. The doctor helped the wretched, the soldier manned the garrison, the cook fed the needy, the lumberjack cut wood, and the cowboys shielded the herd from the predators. Everything withstood the assault of the elements and the cruel existence.

All because the father commanded the way and the other patriarchs and lords abided by the God's words that came to them solely through the father's lips.

And nobody questioned them.

Traditionally male nouns -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


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"Inmate HG13642!" the command came like a whip. "The punishment for fighting with other inmates is isolation ward! How many times do you need to be told, you asshole?!"

The other inmates of the Silver Dolphin All-male prison huffed with anger and fury. Most spat blood out from within their broken lips and caved-in teeth, some cradled torn limbs to their chests, some whimpered lamely lying in the pool of their own piss beneath my feet.

I smirked at the prison guard the way I always did. "We were just having fun, come on. A nice homecoming party with the guys. What's so bad about that?" I glanced back at the other inmates, and they flinched like one. "People, don't keep quiet! Say something and defend a fellow from an unjust accusation, will you?"



Traditionally male-attributed situation -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN
Gender-neutral pronouns (applied across) -- 1

---------

This is an old riddle:

A father and son are in a horrible car crash that kills the dad. The son is rushed to the hospital; just as he’s about to go under the knife, the surgeon says, “I can’t operate—that boy is my son!”

Explain.


Conventionally-male-perceived occupation -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN

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My body is not much to talk about. It's all right, I guess. Other people compliment me often enough, but myself, I am not that vain to fuss about it, you know?
Yeah, the short, perfectly-cut hair. Just tossed about in the wind; no gel, no brush. The natural look, the way the kids appreciate it nowadays.
Steely-blue eyes, long, straight nose, that Michelangelo-inspired chin -- hot damn.
My thin, well-defined lips. Heyyyy, that smirk, too. Even I can't deny it looks insane-good when I smile, lifting just one corner of it but not the other.
The pecks, the abs, the biceps. You know the drill. The underpants fitting all snug and tight, exposing the godlike, muscled ass when I turn in front of the mirror.
Yeah, I'm not vain or shallow, but honestly? At a question if I'd spread my legs for someone who looks like myself, you surely know what my answer would be, don't you?


Traditionally-male-attributed looks -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


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Dad and I met my brother's girlfriend right outside when he and she exited the car.

She was one of the most beautiful girls I've ever seen. Tan, with long, curly hair. Her plump lips naturally red, not make-up at all. Just the way she was born.

A glorious yellow sundress exposing her slender shoulders and her cleavage, going down to her frail-looking thin legs, a few frills and bows hugging her hourglass-like waist.

She blushed when my gaze lingered for too long on her. She clung to Rob's elbow as though trying to hide behind him. Thoughtfully, I averted my eyes and put on a bright smile.

"She's a stunner, though, isn't she?" I joked to Dad to dispel the awkwardness.

Rob, my brother, cleared his throat. "Donald is my boyfriend," he said, nodding at his flustered partner beside him. "He just enjoys feminine style more I think it looks lovely, too." Rob hugged Donald from the side and pecked him softly on the cheek.

Under my and Dad's gazes, Donald froze.

Fear was drawn all too obvious and pained on his face.

"Well, Rob, Donald, come on in!" Dad ushered them into the house with nary a pause. "The dinner's getting cold."

"Donald sounds so formal," I complained only a little as I held the door open for them.

But Donald spoke at last, right when he passed me. "Don is fine too."


Traditionally-female looks, behaviors, clothes -- 1
Female pronouns and nouns (until the end) -- 1
Conventionally-male name -- 1
Self-identifies as male -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


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I sobbed, swallowing my tears and trying to not whimper too loudly. Mike had done it once again. He had broken my heart like he'd done hundreds of time already.
Jerk.
I jumped, swinging my fists at him. But of course he diverted them easily. They wouldn't deal any more damage than a mosquito bite, even if I struck with all my power.
I was not that strong. Yet, at least.
But my rage still overflowed. It would come out like an unstoppable disaster; I knew it. I could not hold it in any longer.
"Give it baaaaaack!" I screeched, bubbling with tears and snot and stomping my feet. "Give me my toy train back, you bully! Or I'm gonna tell Mom!"



Male behavior (very common in males under four-years-old) -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN

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If I could hide it, I would. But the erection was all too obvious for him not to notice in the middle of the steam-soaked showers, and so the only thing I could do was pretend I didn't care who saw it and who didn't.
"Yeah, it's a dick," I snapped at him for staring a bit too long for my liking. "Canvas, oil. Welcome to Louvre, I guess? Do you want to take a picture of it, too?"


Traditionally-male-associated biology -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


---------


I roared through gritted teeth, barely suppressing an urge to punch something. I had never felt so frustrated in my life. Our years-long project, rejected?!
Were all of them insane up there in the council?!
Dana kept talking something about the postman and the neighbor's new dog and the triplets Jenna had given birth to last week, completely oblivious to my inner turmoil.
Because I was frigging repressing it, like all self-respecting people did. Not because I'd actually moved on!
"Dana, I don't give a shit about someone's babies or the milkman!" I snapped, finally releasing my fury at the steering wheel. I smacked it once-twice, ten times! honking at the moron in front of us, and still didn't feel it was enough. "Please shut up and let me fucking think!"

Traditionally-male-associated emotions -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


---------



She looked quite innocent, staring up at me from her knelt-down position in the schoolyard mud. Innocent and slightly scared. Or perhaps flushed?
How charming.

I leaned down and gripped the edge of her chin, forcing it up to have her look me in the eye. Not painfully; I managed my strength well. Just enough to show her who was the one in control here.

Yet a startled gasp still escaped her lips as though I hurt her deeply.

"Is this how you greet the Class President? Slapping me on the face and dumping iced coffee on my new uniform." I smirked, noting in the reflection in her eyes just how cold and dashing I could look when I did that. "Shouldn't some punishment be in order, perhaps?"

"B-but... ahh," she breathed, her cheeks flushing with a faint rosy tint. "I.. didn't mean to, I s-swear, ahhh!"

So hot and bothered already? What a sweet victim to sink my teeth in, she was.

I bent down to brush my lips against her earlobe as I whispered. Her flesh went goosebumped just from this tiny motion. "In the debate class, after the second period. Will see you there."


Traditionally-male-associated behavior -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN


---------


"Jess Green, the class bully," the director read out-loud as though reciting all the sins, all the terrible mistakes I've ever done in my life. "Jess Green, the epitome of arrogance, stubbornness, foul-mouthiness. How many people have you hit, punched, kicked or straight-out mutilated, mmm? Jess Green, the one who chases after every skirt in school and is known for dumping each and every girl too stupid to not be charmed by a few flirty words. Jess Green, the rage and tempest of the entire school. Apparently." She stopped right before me, her head tilted just so.
Her menacing smile grew wider with each second.

"Let's see what we can do to fix you, my most recent test subject," she purred, savoring the reaction she had on me. My slowly-budding panic. "What do you say, Jess Green?"


Traditionally-male-associated social status -- 1
All other values -- UNKNOWN

Most lines that have "traditionally" or "conventionally" can be easily hacked and manipulated, of course, due to cultures, zeitgeist, and stylizations chosen by the authors.

The point of this is not to write stories with such rigid restrictions (GODS NO) but to see how, when combined, several of the previously omitted lines in this code would result in 99,99999999% identification of a character as "male" and which ones can be safely omitted without losing much information (the answer -- any one of them can be easily omitted. The Nouns and pronouns are just harder to go around, but even they can be worked against).

Which brings me back to the definition I originally gave to you:

"Male in fiction = linguistic code based on certain attributes and characteristics".

But sorry -- I cannot see efficiently creating a "male" character every single time while omitting ALL of these values except for "identifies as male". I feel like you are not going fully with your definition, really, and would rely on some other lines in the code (at the least, behavior, thoughts, emotions, etc) -- thus making it much more than just "identifies as male".

Thus this definition would not work for all instances of male characters.

If only that line "identifies as male" is necessary for making a male character in a BL story, then this premise would also work:

A blob of goopy flesh in Alpha-Centauri-c who identifies as "male" of their species, distinct from "females" by having a green sheen instead of a blue one on their surface. It catches the male gay astronaut and proceeds to mentally and physically harass him while being actually unable to communicate, emote, think, or even feel the empathy toward him in a manner that the astronaut would recognize.
But he gives the astronaut unbelievable pleasure in the sex-related endeavors and slowly but surely, the astronaut begins to feel love toward the goopy flesh puddle.
The goopy flesh puddle's love narration for the astronaut is omitted like many MLs' in BL tend to be, solely relying on the Internal Monologue of the astronaut who is in love. The only thing known for sure is that the goopy puddle identifies as male because creatures like him glow pink when they do.

Would that really constitute a BL story in your definition?

But the mushroom that talks, walks, feels, emotes, thinks, and loves like a human man -- and is in a consensual relationship with a human man -- will not pass your definition of a BL couple because he doesn't identify as male due to not knowing what "male" even is?

At least the second BL premise has more code lines in it... and thus gives much more room for assumptions...

Also, people grown in isolation would also probably be unable to identify as male due to not having seen any. A boy who grows up in a lab and has no idea what males are -- would he not pass your idea of a "male" when he falls in love with the first guy he sees and just defines both himself and that guy as "human" instead (they are not exposed to women to define the difference)?

This boy can feel male and think male but so can the mushroom -- yet neither of them will ever be able to identify these feelings and thoughts because they are not exposed to the external comparisons of groups and categories with which they can align themselves.

Once again, your definition would only favor those who rely on external associations and experience, but not for those who are only internally-male, without relating their "maleness" to outside of themselves...

So this is the whole reason why I was confused with your definition at the onset and now. I feel like it lacks some specifics of how it works and is neither better nor worse than the majority of other definitions used in its place. Like others, it perceives a "specific pattern" of what constitutes a male, and my definition encompasses that. "Set of characteristics and attributes" = patterns.

Thus, either we are not actually disagreeing and are simply talking parallel to each other -- or I am missing something else about your definition? I might be.

I spent three whole days overthinking males in fiction, LOL

Not that I mind, but still... so many males O_O to think of.

I feel slightly perverted now like some kind of a male-fetishist +_+. Your fault

Part 2 of 3

Elegant music
Please return to reading this thread after a short intermission!
To be concluded =====>
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[Queenfisher]

@yansusustories

FORUM, are you kidding me??? What is wrong with my post! Why do I have t split it into several parts??? This is part 3 of 3!



Now I will address your points! (Sorry it takes me so long, but I just cannot understand your definition well without explaining why I can't +_+).

So, a biologically-born man that identifies as male is male. A biologically-born woman that identifies as male is also male (no matter the state of his transition). A man that transmigrates and ends up in the body of a biologically-born woman but still identifies as male is male. A woman that transmigrates and ends up in the body of a biologically-born man but still identifies as female isn't male.

So, no, to me, it doesn't. I mean, I can see what you were thinking to come up with this definition but I don't think it can still hold true. Because if it was as easy as (my code) then as I've said in my examples many times before, you could just use a female character with the same characteristics as what you'd assign a male character and just say 'this is BL'. But it wouldn't be. You can't have a BL novel with a hetero couple, only with a male-male couple. You just can't because the core ingredients are wrong. You would have a different dish, a hetero romance novel.

In the first quote, you use "biologically-born woman", but in the second one -- only "female character". I assume for the second one, you always use your definition of gender as "identifies as"?

The problem is that this definition is extremely narrow and excludes many cases. Like I showed in the example above with the blob of flesh that identifies as "male" -- your definition is also subject to hacking and is severely limiting to less than a 10% of all books of the chosen genre where they are featured.

For example, to battle the narrowing-down of definitions, I always used a wide conjunction of values when I quoted my linguistic code: looks/feelings/thoughts/behaviors/nouns -- precisely because that is enough to draw a picture of a man EVEN when the "identifies as" value is missing.

I also feel like your example of why my version wouldn't work is because you assume that if the value "identifies as male" = UNKNOWN or 0 it would mean "it's a female".

That is an extreme example (like the blob of flesh is, too). And it negates the fact that my definition always is based in linguistic code (nouns, adjectives, and pronouns are integral part of it). Therefore --

A female character who behaves, thinks, emotes, and looks like a male but is referred to as "she" -- does not mean she identifies herself as such. It only means that I, the author, refer to her in this manner, thus being in the chain of assumptions of who she is.

If she is referred to as a "he" -- that also does not say anything about her identity. Only about my, the author's, choice to narrate it in this manner. But me being second hands, unless I state somewhere distinctly that he identifies as "male" -- you cannot really assume that me writing about him "he" = him identifying as a "he".

How is that different from a guy on the street telling me a story about his brother's entire life and misgendering his brother all the while with the use of "she" pronoun? The author's voice =/= the final instance of truth because a lot of the time, the actual author of the story =/= the narration used as "author's voice" in the same story. Plus, I am not even going to go into the whole "the author is racist, homophobic, transphobic, etc"...

See? There are many instances of misgendering people in the world. But when we do not have the actual word and acknowledgement and addressing from the person themselves (in this case, a character) -- the author can misgender them all they want. And we, the reader, will have nothing better to do than to go on along with that.

We would lack any information about the actual identity. Only the storyteller's point of view from the side.

______________________​

More about your example of a "female" instead of a "male" in omitted field of "male identity". Faust, Odyssey, Achilles, Dante, Gilgamesh, Kullervo, Osiris, Hamlet, countless other men in fiction do not have the value of "identifies as male" filled out. It is always omitted. Why would anyone assume they identify as women if that is what your example implies?

Omitted means we do not have access to that information and have to fill it out with our assumptions instead. The rest of the linguistic code for "male" would allow exactly that. Why would we jump to a conclusion about the omitted information to be so aggressively "anti-male" when it never said so? It is just lacking, not oppositional.

All in all, my definition tries to be as wide as possible for fictional characters whose self-identity we cannot perceive other than through second hands (author/reader). Of course it is subject to hacking, as most wide definitions are. But so is yours. But yours also fails to actually define the majority of cases, thus, in my opinion -- cannot apply.

(And also because it is cyclical and cannot work as a definition, I'm afraid. For this -- see above).

Another example of how your definition could fail -- is:

A woman who identifies as male out-loud and in her thoughts but isn't. She is an unreliable narrator. Identity cannot be claimed in fictional characters as the truth because, again, true self-identity is impossible for fictional characters since they do not possess selves. Thus, if she claims out-loud to be male but at the end of the third book in the saga it is revealed she had lied -- what would that make her "identification as male" in the first two books WHILE those books were the only published material?

Likewise, you say AI cannot be viewed as male because he never identifies himself as such in the book. Okay, but what if -- like in Metroid series, he identifies himself as male in one of the sequels?

Now, tomato ketchup is defined on Wikipedia like this: "Tomato ketchup is a sweet and tangy condiment made from tomatoes, sugar, and vinegar, with seasonings and spices." So, if you remove 1% of it (e.g. seasonings and spices) and add basil instead, the general recipe won't change because it'll still be "a sweet and tangy condiment made from tomatoes, sugar, and vinegar, with seasonings and spices". If you remove the tomatoes though, it'll stop being tomato ketchup at all because those are a hard requirement (same with the sugar, and vinegar). So it would totally depend on what the thing is that you take away.
Similarly, I think that you can't take away the 'male' component of BL because it's, well, Boys' Love. If you don't have Boys (aka some kinda male character) or don't have some type of Love (whether that'll be sexual or romantic or something else) it'll not be BL anymore. On the other hand, everything else (aka the seasonings and spices) can absolutely be changed. Whether you set it in a modern, futuristic, or ancient world, it's BL if the B and L are there. It's also BL whether you have the dense protagonist trope in there or the husband-and-wife relationship trope or whatever, it stays BL as long as you don't change the core ingredients. Additional ingredients can be changed but not the core ones, otherwise, you end up with a different sauce.

YES, I also cannot believe we are talking about ketchup at such length!

But that's entirely my fault, I know!

My failure was that I used the definition of ketchup from Google and it just says "tomatoes and vinegar", so my bad. Originally, I planned to use something obscenely weird in my 1% ketchup metaphor like banana or apple -- but I realized that it's too weird to suspend the disbelief for -- and used Basil without checking that a lot of ketchups actually put it in! @_@

Sorry!

But I would still go back to the definition of what constitutes "male" in BL (does it rhyme? or am I going insane with talking about BL so much +_+). For me, "identifies as male" = spices. For you, "identifies as male" = tomatoes.

We are on absolutely different floors in the same building, lol.

So, yes, I absolutely get why you're so weirded out by this. Whether your stories are actually BL or rather something else is something only you can decide, my arguments be damned. I have my opinion on what constitutes the genre but I'm not going to point fingers at somebody who thinks differently (people can keep their mushrooms as well if they want to). Even if you would decide it isn't BL sometime in the future, I don't think it'd be bad though. It's just that things change and sometimes we just get a new perspective. That's okay.

Thank you. Most often, I am writing to disable the linguistic status-quo. I am always confused or fascinated with different layers of language and bias and frustration it can cause. If I can strain the suspension of disbelief about societal norms about some social construct -- I will do it. I am evil like that.

Most of my characters are actually genderless (due to my phobia of writing women as I told you somewhere else on SH) and I try to upend my gynephobia by severely hacking the "male linguistic code" in all my stories ^^. I feel like since male characters are much more iconic and widespread in fiction across all cultures -- working with questioning the status quo of "male character" to solve my issues with writing women will help me one day graduate to writing women again!

That makes almost all my men very androgynous, even feminine (to varying degrees), and thus I understand why you would say my hacking of the linguistic code can go fully into the "is this female???" territory. The answer is -- no, it isn't ^^. If my character is female, then I am obviously failing to question to status quo of "male", which is my primary current job in writing . I need to strain the concept, not rip it apart. The issue with BL in particular is that the majority of people don't like two feminine men together, so I have to constantly play around with which values I can safely omit or subvert and which I have to keep "largely conventionally male" to not alienate my audience... @_@.

It's... not easy.

_____________________________​

All in all, the definitions can fail (and probably would if someone intentionally strains them), but the point is -- I think it's fascinating to talk about nonetheless. Your push for "identify as" made me actually try and come up with the code lines of what makes a male character.

Even if it's useless to anyone but myself, I am still going to use it for my "disabling" the status quo later, mwahahahaha! Because it would just make my job there easier. I like analyzing, It makes me consume and produce art much smoother ^^.

So thank you -- even if we do not agree, this was such a cool discussion for me. I don't know about you and I am sorry if I did it again (went on and wrote a fucking thesis). Please do not kick me +_+.

I am trying to grow and learn and also to write the review of your BOOK already but you are distracting me with interesting topics on the forum that are directly related to my entire writing goals!!!

P.S: even if the rest of this post is just nonsense to you -- can you check my examples of linguistic code that omits some values? I am really interested if I managed to write gender-neutrally while focusing only on some parts of what constitutes "male" in fiction... Half of these examples were actually written with girls or genderless people in mind, but I am mainly focused whether one can assume a "male" in any of them.

Swelling orchestral Music

Fin​

 

[yansusustories]

Also, I was a very bad girl, writing so much on the forum lately. My backlog slipped all the way and I had to fix it stat! Writing >6k words a day to do it was quite...

Tell me about it I only have a single chapter left on my stockpile and I'm juggling six projects atm Also, it's 3 am again and I'm seeing your comment is pretty long and there is another page with comments from other people (probably ) so I'm only going to read this tomorrow and hopefully after I actually finished my work.

Edit: The forum just showed me right after posting that the next page is all on you. Can't say I didn't expect this

 

[Queenfisher]

Tell me about it I only have a single chapter left on my stockpile and I'm juggling six projects atm Also, it's 3 am again and I'm seeing your comment is pretty long and there is another page with comments from other people (probably ) so I'm only going to read this tomorrow and hopefully after I actually finished my work.

Edit: The forum just showed me right after posting that the next page is all on you. Can't say I didn't expect this

I am kinda about the fact that the thread originally meant to question the necessity of BL (and GB, too!) we have turned into a --



BL-express leaves the platform! Everyone who was on board and doesn't want to be is advised to jump off now OR --!

 

[thedude3445]

I like stories with gay male protagonists, but I've almost never been able to get stories labeled BL. What exactly is it about the genre that is turning me off, because I really haven't been able to pinpoint it over all these years. I want to find the BL stories that win me over!

 

[yansusustories]

I am kinda about the fact that the thread originally meant to question the necessity of BL (and GB, too!) we have turned into a --



BL-express leaves the platform! Everyone who was on board and doesn't want to be is advised to jump off now OR --!

Sounds like us Actually, sounds like every BL reader ever

And I'm still trying to write chapters so you'll need to wait longer for your response

 

[Moonpearl]

People who say "queer is a slur" are ahistorical in addition to being usually pretty terfy, and are easy to ignore.

I don't know about that. Many of the people I encountered who didn't like it were upset because it was being actively used as a slur against them, and hearing it still made them flinch.

 

[tigerine]

I don't know about that. Many of the people I encountered who didn't like it were upset because it was being actively used as a slur against them, and hearing it still made them flinch.

We use 'queer' for our history, events, organizing, and studies. It is the preferred word to be inclusive without being specific, which is great because so much of our identities are in flux. I get people's discomfort with the word. I was there, I've heard it used as a slur as well. But "queer is a slur", as a concept, has been effectively linked to radfem and terf rhetoric, so it's important to actively interrogate whether one is not claiming a queer identity for personal reasons or whether one is saying no one can be queer. Frankly I've encountered too many terfs not to be suspicious. ymmv