My issue or my opinion about BL and gender bender novel

yansusustories

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...Not sure if I'd ever waste one of the 25 more relevant tags about the story on something so seemingly minuscule :blob_frown:. For those who read, it's usually apparent who the MC is just by looking at the blurb.

But if we're filtering by tags, then yeah :blob_no:.

Still. I'd prefer a more story-relevant tag like "Calm Protag", "Ruthless Protag", "Cute Protag" than the gendered one. I'd only consider putting it in it if it's brought out of the 25-tag limit, really.
I'm a bit afraid we're totally going to derail the post here but the question really has me intrigued. Like, I can absolutely see why somebody would want to filter for a character's gender. Some people like to identify with the MC and that's often easier if they are of the same gender as the reader. On the other hand, some people might not want to read a story with an MC of a certain gender because of whatever reason. And we have male, female, transgender and genderless protagonist tags if I remember correctly so we can generally cover the whole bandwidth of gender identities.
So it would actually make sense in most genres to tag the gender. But then again, BL and GL make it pretty obvious which gender the MC is so in these specific cases, it might be irrelevant (since a BL MC should be male with a male love interest and nothing else, same with GL just that both are female). In other genres though, I can totally see it being something worth tagging. So I guess people who want to filter out a certain gender for the MC might be able to do it by also excluding BL or GL or include either of those if they are looking for an MC of a certain gender. It's something additional you have to keep in mind though.

As for the blurb, I agree that it's a bit of a problem since you can't look through all the stories' blurbs one-by-one to find what you're looking for. I mean, you can but it's not cost-effective in terms of time so I understand why it might be annoying if stuff (outside BL and GL likely) isn't tagged for the right gender of the protagonist.
And I'm just realizing that I often don't tag for the MC's personality either :blob_blank:

Oh, another thing I just remembered: This is something that will be difficult for multiple POV stories :blob_hmm_two:
 

Daitengu

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I'm fine with anything if it's good. Well except for BL. But that's more to do with me than the material. BL just remind me of the fact that I hate being a guy, and see all guys as ugly to meh. A certain amount of reader attraction to the characters is part of the BL/yuri formula. Without it, most bl/GL romance stories get boring fast.

I suppose an analogy would be like 90% of the men are in the ugly basterd category, and I'm sick of it.
 
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Queenfisher

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I'm fine with anything if it's good. Well except for BL. But that's more to do with me than the material. BL just remind me of the fact that I hate being a guy, and see all guys as ugly to meh. A certain amount of reader attraction to the characters is part of the BL/yuri formula. Without it, most bl/GL romance stories get boring fast.

I suppose an analogy would be like 90% of the men are in the ugly basterd category, and I'm sick of it.

:blob_blank:

One of the most popularly-used synonyms of BL is "danmei", which literally means "indulgence in beauty" .

:blob_hmm: Whatchoo mean by "ugly basterds"?

In our BL?

On a less serious note, I am vaguely offended because I prefer to draw my guys to be prettier than 90% of girls, so... :blob_cookie:

So it would actually make sense in most genres to tag the gender. But then again, BL and GL make it pretty obvious which gender the MC is so in these specific cases, it might be irrelevant (since a BL MC should be male with a male love interest and nothing else, same with GL just that both are female).

Both "transgender" and "genderless" can fit in too, I think (since you mentioned them above). Many instances I can imagine, and by that margin, if they are going to be used on some BLs/GLs, that might imply the "male protag"/"female protag" would have to be used as well in order to filter-out the "majority" vs "niche" the way we argued about M+F tag.

Thus, probably no genre can be free of needing the "Gender X protag" if people are really using such filters. :blob_hmm_two: Maybe I'm wrong though...
 

Sabruness

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There actually isn't that much BL on SH... at least compared to NU.
aint that the truth :blobrofl: :blobrofl: :blobrofl: :blobrofl: :blob_sir: :blob_sir:

Just filter it out. out of sight, out of mind. I have BL et al tags filtered out and it does wonders for the release list that i see. on the topic, i should probably filter out bisexual protag as well.
 

minacia

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I'm fine with anything if it's good. Well except for BL. But that's more to do with me than the material. BL just remind me of the fact that I hate being a guy, and see all guys as ugly to meh. A certain amount of reader attraction to the characters is part of the BL/yuri formula. Without it, most bl/GL romance stories get boring fast.

I suppose an analogy would be like 90% of the men are in the ugly basterd category, and I'm sick of it.
I think what confuses me is that not being attracted to a gender, at least for me, means apathy rather then hate/dislike/revulsion.

Like I personally tend to have an extremely strong (almost exclusive) preference for guys, and I generally don't read that much yuri because I just don't get very interested in the characters... (I'm sorry! >.< I guess I'm just subconsciously horny or something... or I'm just always looking for wish fulfillment or something?)

...But I don't dislike yuri/GL. I just don't get very invested in it when I read it and I tend to lose interest...

But that's almost like a neutral feeling for me (similar to how I might have neutral feelings about reading a historical fiction novel or very high fantasy with tons of invented jargon language), and I just lack interest.
 

yansusustories

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Both "transgender" and "genderless" can fit in too, I think (since you mentioned them above). Many instances I can imagine, and by that margin, if they are going to be used on some BLs/GLs, that might imply the "male protag"/"female protag" would have to be used as well in order to filter-out the "majority" vs "niche" the way we argued about M+F tag.

Thus, probably no genre can be free of needing the "Gender X protag" if people are really using such filters. :blob_hmm_two: Maybe I'm wrong though...
Ah, shit, now that you say it ... I was actually thinking of agender and everything non-binary (since I was trying to think of whatever would be not-female and/or not-male) which I personally would not accept in a BL since, well, they're not male. The characters should be male for it to be a BL (and vise versa for GL, of course) imo. Otherwise, I'd throw it under the general romance genre.
I kind of neglected that transgender would just as much refer to just a trans guy so authors might wanna tag it with both male protagonist and transgender because the character would be both :blob_no: Although I stand by the point that if you tagged it transgender and threw it in the BL genre, that should already tell readers it's a trans guy since, well, BL. But maybe I'm thinking wrong :blob_blank:
 

Queenfisher

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Ah, shit, now that you say it ... I was actually thinking of agender and everything non-binary (since I was trying to think of whatever would be not-female and/or not-male) which I personally would not accept in a BL since, well, they're not male. The characters should be male for it to be a BL (and vise versa for GL, of course) imo. Otherwise, I'd throw it under the general romance genre.
I kind of neglected that transgender would just as much refer to just a trans guy so authors might wanna tag it with both male protagonist and transgender because the character would be both :blob_no: Although I stand by the point that if you tagged it transgender and threw it in the BL genre, that should already tell readers it's a trans guy since, well, BL. But maybe I'm thinking wrong :blob_blank:

Mmmmm...

Sorry for derailing yet another thread ( :blob_no:) but what if I write this premise:

An AI in an artificial body of what most closely resembles a male? Thus, the sex (outwardly) would be male and he can even be programmed to behave in a stereotypically masculine way. But inwardly, this AI would not actually have a gender. But it will still fall in love with a human man and even behave in a completely BL-trajectory manner throughout the book. Its thoughts would never refer to it as male, just ignore this area of thought altogether, but would face all the exterior prejudice/support/reactions to it as if it were born a man. The question of its inwardly-perceived gender never comes in the story as relevant, thus rendering it essentially male for the readers' purposes and the tropes the story uses.

(Also, change the same premise to an infinity-immortality-aberration god as well who assumed a body of a male for the story, which thus becomes fantasy and not scifi).

Would that not constitute an Agender Protagonist BL story? :blob_hmm:
 

yansusustories

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Would that not constitute an Agender Protagonist BL story?
Not to me, no :blob_sweat: And it's because of these two things:
But inwardly, this AI would not actually have a gender.
Its thoughts would never refer to it as male
Like, I don't know if this is maybe a wrong parallel to draw but to me, that's as if you wrote a story about a man and a trans woman who can't/won't transition throughout the story and is thus perceived by others as a man while actually being a woman and declare that BL. To me, it would be het romance (with a transgender tag) and I'd be angry if I saw that in the BL genre. Because no matter how other people in the story see the person, she is still a woman, just like the AI in your premise would still be genderless instead of a man. What others think of the character isn't as important as the inner world of the character IMO.
 

Queenfisher

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Not to me, no :blob_sweat: And it's because of these two things:


Like, I don't know if this is maybe a wrong parallel to draw but to me, that's as if you wrote a story about a man and a trans woman who can't/won't transition throughout the story and is thus perceived by others as a man while actually being a woman and declare that BL. To me, it would be het romance (with a transgender tag) and I'd be angry if I saw that in the BL genre. Because no matter how other people in the story see the person, she is still a woman, just like the AI in your premise would still be genderless instead of a man. What others think of the character isn't as important as the inner world of the character IMO.

But the point is whether it comes up in the story or not. Like I said, the issue never gets addressed by the AI protagonist. Actually, I think I've read premises like this already, and in them, god-like beings distinctly claim they do not comprehend gender yet are still very much romantic in het/homo categories. Within the traditional het/homo tropes.

The point would be -- what you describe is a person with gender who perceives themselves as non-male. Ignoring it altogether (never addressed) both gives the author the opportunity to put in Agender Protag and to actually write a completely normal BL if they so wish.

Or in other words, your premise "acknowledges" gender to some degree. Like you say "Because no matter how other people in the story see the person, she is still a woman, just like the AI in your premise would still be genderless instead of a man" -- that requires the protagonist to both understand and engage with the concept of gender, thus implicitly or explicitly addressing it.

The AI/god in the hypothetical example I suggest HAS no idea and therefore cannot address it, making no claims about their gender or sex or both. From within their POV, this question never even comes up because they do not care. Readers might, but they can't force the character to think in categories they physically cannot comprehend... No? :blob_hmm_two:

Reminds me a bit of the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancillary_Justice book where ALL people in the book are referred to as "she" because the protagonist's native language doesn't comprehend other pronouns.

But even though all the characters in that book are "she", the readers would never call the romance between the main characters as Lesbian because, while the Protagonist cannot comprehend the gender stereotypes or divides, the reader can. One of the main couple characters is generally viewed by the audience as male due to some stereotypes -- which is the point of the book. Can we, as readers, tell if the Protagonist cannot comprehend gender? Or are we guided by stereotypes?

I propose the same premise for the same results, essentially ^^. If I rewrote a famous BL novel to its exactness, only instead of the currently existing Protagonist, I put into it a genderless god at the very beginning -- would that book automatically stop being BL?

I doubt that. :blob_hmm:

Sorry for the tangent and a wall of hypothetical text, but it's just so interesting :blob_aww:. And thanks for making me remember about Ancillary Justice! That was such a fun concept book...
 

yansusustories

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Sorry for the tangent and a wall of hypothetical text, but it's just so interesting
I actually really love engaging in this. The only thing I'm worried about is whether we're annoying others here and should rather open another thread :blob_blank: But then again, the thread is complaining about the popularity of BL and we're basically questioning what even counts as BL so I'd say let's continue :blobrofl:

Now, onto the actual points (I'll cherry-pick some stuff to quote as a summary):
But the point is whether it comes up in the story or not.
that requires the protagonist to both understand and engage with the concept of gender, thus implicitly or explicitly addressing it.
I'm afraid we'll slide into linguist territory here again but I guess the question would first be: What does it mean to 'address' the concept? To me, just by referring to the AI (I'll run with that one and ignore the god because I'm lazy like that) as a genderless protagonist in its thoughts, the issue already is addressed in my eyes. I don't need the AI to even think about gender outside of that, I'll just take its thoughts at face-value.

But even though all the characters in that book are "she", the readers would never call the romance between the main characters as Lesbian because, while the Protagonist cannot comprehend the gender stereotypes or divides, the reader can. One of the main couple characters is generally viewed by the audience as male due to some stereotypes -- which is the point of the book. Can we, as readers, tell if the Protagonist cannot comprehend gender? Or are we guided by stereotypes?
This is actually really interesting. I think the difference between this and your premise is though which perspective the story is seen through: If the AI is the MC (lol?) and we get to read its thoughts, there is - at least to me - no doubt about its genderless state. In this case, though, the person not being a woman but being referred to as 'she' is not the MC as far as I understand so we couldn't say for sure what's in their thoughts and it isn't addressed that way. In this case, I would expect that a person that is misgendered (especially if it happens consistently) would address the issue and try to explain. If that doesn't happen, then either the person is super non-confrontational or they are, in fact, content with being addressed that way and thus, might actually be a woman after all, stereotypes be damned.
I think here, it is important how the other character reacts in the book itself. And that reaction is what actually addresses the issue of gender.

I propose the same premise for the same results, essentially ^^. If I rewrote a famous BL novel to its exactness, only instead of the currently existing Protagonist, I put into it a genderless god at the very beginning -- would that book automatically stop being BL?

I doubt that.
This might be one of those cases where, in the end, we'll have to agree to disagree or something. IMO, if you exchanged the male MC for a woman, it would stop being BL. So yeah, I'd say it's still the same if you put in a genderless MC instead.

Btw, a question that I came up with since my last post and which is basically the same thing in green: If we have a male love interest and a genderless MC or vice versa, is that a het romance story? :blob_hmm_two: Because hear me out: Homosexuality means attraction to the same gender that you have. Heterosexuality, on the other hand, is attraction to a different gender from your own. So if male is a gender, female is a gender, agender is a gender (lol again, it's not a typo), and shades of nonbinary are also genders, then a male love interest/MC and an agender MC/love interest should - de facto - be a heterosexual relationship :blob_blank:
 

Moonpearl

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I was actually thinking of agender and everything non-binary (since I was trying to think of whatever would be not-female and/or not-male) which I personally would not accept in a BL since, well, they're not male. The characters should be male for it to be a BL (and vise versa for GL, of course) imo. Otherwise, I'd throw it under the general romance genre.
What about bigender characters who identify as men and also something else?

Btw, a question that I came up with since my last post and which is basically the same thing in green: If we have a male love interest and a genderless MC or vice versa, is that a het romance story? :blob_hmm_two: Because hear me out: Homosexuality means attraction to the same gender that you have. Heterosexuality, on the other hand, is attraction to a different gender from your own. So if male is a gender, female is a gender, agender is a gender (lol again, it's not a typo), and shades of nonbinary are also genders, then a male love interest/MC and an agender MC/love interest should - de facto - be a heterosexual relationship :blob_blank:
*shudder*

Aren't there separate terms for non-binary/agender folk who are attracted to men/masculine people or women/feminine people, though? Or ones that they're more able to use?
 

yansusustories

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What about bigender characters who identify as men and also something else?
Mn ... I haven't actually come about that term yet. Would that be something like being genderfluid? I actually did ponder that question before (in terms of gender-fluidity, I mean) and came to the conclusion that, personally, I would probably not put that in BL but in romance in general. Because BL seems a bit too narrow to accommodate it (since there's more than just the male gender involved) while romance is the overarching genre which would be right (since it should include all types of romance no matter the orientation and/or gender of the characters involved).
I think a case-by-case basis might be necessary though depending on how the gender actually plays out. E.g., if it's a changing thing like with gender fluidity but the time spent being not-male is minuscule compared to the time with male being the gender, then I think BL might be appropriate. Again, I'd probably decide against it, personally, but I could see it working.
If I got completely wrong what bigender would be, I'll have to think about that again. I do have to admit that I'm much more well-versed in terms of sexuality (mainly the gay and ace side) than gender.

*shudder*

Aren't there separate terms for non-binary/agender folk who are attracted to men/masculine people or women/feminine people, though? Or ones that they're more able to use?
Haha, that's exactly what my initial reaction was :blob_sweat: I think, by definition, hetero should be applicable but then again it just seems so strange. It just doesn't sound straight because we only ever see being straight as man+woman. I can't think of another good word either but maybe that's just because I haven't heard of it yet.
I was thinking QPRs maybe (as in queer-platonic relationships). That's a term lots of people on the ace/aro spectrum use but I'm not quite sure if it's applicable to other situations as well. From what I understand though, it's kinda a "catch-all" phrase for any kind of queer relationship outside of the mainstream (not even necessarily platonic as I've been told although I'm still not quite sure how that works with the name) so might still apply? E.g. poly relationships can apparently also be dubbed QPRs?
Anyway, if somebody more knowledgeable comes around, please weigh in. As I said, I don't know that much about gender actually so I could be completely off-base here with anything I wrote but I'd really like to find out and get some other perspectives on this :blob_melt:
 

Moonpearl

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Mn ... I haven't actually come about that term yet. Would that be something like being genderfluid? I actually did ponder that question before (in terms of gender-fluidity, I mean) and came to the conclusion that, personally, I would probably not put that in BL but in romance in general. Because BL seems a bit too narrow to accommodate it (since there's more than just the male gender involved) while romance is the overarching genre which would be right (since it should include all types of romance no matter the orientation and/or gender of the characters involved).
I think a case-by-case basis might be necessary though depending on how the gender actually plays out. E.g., if it's a changing thing like with gender fluidity but the time spent being not-male is minuscule compared to the time with male being the gender, then I think BL might be appropriate. Again, I'd probably decide against it, personally, but I could see it working.
If I got completely wrong what bigender would be, I'll have to think about that again. I do have to admit that I'm much more well-versed in terms of sexuality (mainly the gay and ace side) than gender.
The definition taken from here (https://www.umass.edu/stonewall/sites/default/files/documents/allyship_term_handout.pdf) is, "Individuals who experience their gender identity as two genders at the same time or whose gender identity may vary between two genders."

So it's perfectly possible for someone to be both a man and a woman at the same time, at all times.
Haha, that's exactly what my initial reaction was :blob_sweat: I think, by definition, hetero should be applicable but then again it just seems so strange. It just doesn't sound straight because we only ever see being straight as man+woman. I can't think of another good word either but maybe that's just because I haven't heard of it yet.
I was thinking QPRs maybe (as in queer-platonic relationships). That's a term lots of people on the ace/aro spectrum use but I'm not quite sure if it's applicable to other situations as well. From what I understand though, it's kinda a "catch-all" phrase for any kind of queer relationship outside of the mainstream (not even necessarily platonic as I've been told although I'm still not quite sure how that works with the name) so might still apply? E.g. poly relationships can apparently also be dubbed QPRs?
Anyway, if somebody more knowledgeable comes around, please weigh in. As I said, I don't know that much about gender actually so I could be completely off-base here with anything I wrote but I'd really like to find out and get some other perspectives on this :blob_melt:
Queerplatonic is for relationships that blur the lines between romance and friendship, right? It's about the type of love, not the people having it. There's more about it here: https://lgbta.wikia.org/wiki/Queerplatonic_Relationship

Non-gender-specific sexuality terms include androsexual, gynosexual, and skoliosexual. However, I've also heard that "sapphic" and "achillean" are inclusive of non-binary and agender people, and I know many feminine-aligned people who identify as non-binary or agender lesbians.

On the other hand, I'm pretty sure the definition of heterosexual is still "attracted to the so-called opposite gender/sex". In order for that to apply to non-binary peeps, they would have to only be attracted to people on the exact opposite part of the spectrum of gender, right? Which is highly unlikely.
The sheet I've been using here also gives heterosexual as just, "Men who experience sexual, romantic, and/or emotional attractions attraction to women, and vice versa. Also known as “straight.”" (They missed out "only" here, but I guess they meant to put it in.)
 

bafflinghaze

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Mn ... I haven't actually come about that term yet. Would that be something like being genderfluid? I actually did ponder that question before (in terms of gender-fluidity, I mean) and came to the conclusion that, personally, I would probably not put that in BL but in romance in general. Because BL seems a bit too narrow to accommodate it (since there's more than just the male gender involved) while romance is the overarching genre which would be right (since it should include all types of romance no matter the orientation and/or gender of the characters involved).

Genderfluid is if your gender changes/fluctuates over time (i.e. some days you wake up feeling more feminine and some days you wake up feeling more masculine and there may be no apparent cause). Someone who is bigender can also be genderfluid. And someone who both a man and nonbinary would probably still fall under nonbinary, or bigender, depending on who they see themselves.

But I think when you have such a character, indeed, you've probably moved beyond BL and into (LGBTQ+) Romance.


Aren't there separate terms for non-binary/agender folk who are attracted to men/masculine people or women/feminine people, though? Or ones that they're more able to use?
The main answer is no. I'm sure that individual people might have coined their own unique terms, but popularity wise, there are no separate terms. From what I have seen, nonbinary people who are attracted to only one gender tend to use the terms "gay" or "lesbian". For example, many nonbinary AFAB people attracted to women often call themselves "nonbinary lesbians". And if it's complicated...just say "queer".

(Plus Moonpearl's own addition :blob_cookie:)


I was thinking QPRs maybe (as in queer-platonic relationships). That's a term lots of people on the ace/aro spectrum use but I'm not quite sure if it's applicable to other situations as well. From what I understand though, it's kinda a "catch-all" phrase for any kind of queer relationship outside of the mainstream (not even necessarily platonic as I've been told although I'm still not quite sure how that works with the name) so might still apply? E.g. poly relationships can apparently also be dubbed QPRs?

As you just said, the literal catch all term is "queer" :blob_melt: A nonbinary person in a relationship with any other person, regardless of gender, is definitely queer.
 

Moonpearl

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As you just said, the literal catch all term is "queer" :blob_melt: A nonbinary person in a relationship with any other person, regardless of gender, is definitely queer.
"Queer" is also my go-to, but the issue is that there are people who aren't on board with reclaiming the slur and all, so we're technically not supposed to use it without permission.

Which sends us back to go round and round again...
 

yansusustories

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The definition taken from here (https://www.umass.edu/stonewall/sites/default/files/documents/allyship_term_handout.pdf) is, "Individuals who experience their gender identity as two genders at the same time or whose gender identity may vary between two genders."
Ah, that is really neat! Guess I'm gonna save that. I actually feel like there are just so many terms I have never heard of in general or that I have heard of but need to read up on a ton more to get a decent understanding. It doesn't help that definitions often vary. I don't think I've ever mentioned this but I actually only found out that there's even such a thing as being 'non-binary', like, less than two years ago. Compared to back then, it's so much better. But gosh, the LGBT+ community is just so big and time is so limited I often feel like there it's impossible. :blob_no:

Queerplatonic is for relationships that blur the lines between romance and friendship, right? It's about the type of love, not the people having it. There's more about it here: https://lgbta.wikia.org/wiki/Queerplatonic_Relationship
That's actually what I thought (and what I would use as my personal definition, actually) until I had a discussion about it with some other people from the community. And apparently, despite that definition and explanation being shown most of the time, some parts of the community seem to have a wider definition? As I said, I'm not completely certain how to fit some stuff under there.

Genderfluid is if your gender changes/fluctuates over time (i.e. some days you wake up feeling more feminine and some days you wake up feeling more masculine and there may be no apparent cause). Someone who is bigender can also be genderfluid.
That's actually how I understood being genderfluid, yes. And I know there's sub-terms for how that pans out for types of people. E.g., I think a term for if you feel more feminine most of the time compared to feeling more masculine most of the time. Bigender is really something new then though. Guess I'll have to look that up a bit more.
I actually don't have a good idea of what gender even is (which I assume is because I'm cis) so it's sometimes a bit hard for me to wrap my head around these things.

But I think when you have such a character, indeed, you've probably moved beyond BL and into (LGBTQ+) Romance.
Yeah, that was actually my idea as well. Since we don't have that on SH though, romance it would likely be. This is actually one of the reasons I don't have a problem with having an LGBT+ genre on sites even though people often say we're not a genre. At least having the tag would be nice though because it's often hard to put it anywhere else because it just doesn't fit the mainstream sometimes.

As you just said, the literal catch all term is "queer" :blob_melt: A nonbinary person in a relationship with any other person, regardless of gender, is definitely queer.
The person definitely is. Do we just declare the relationship a queer one as well then? I actually once saw (was on Twitter though which is a hellhole so not sure I can trust anything there) that we shouldn't assign words like 'heterosexual', 'homosexual' etc. to relationships but only the actual people involved in them because, well, a relationship can't have a sexuality. I think the background was that a bisexual person in a hetero/homo relationship might feel their sexuality erased if the relationship was dubbed hetero/homo. Personally, I thought it was more about the gender of the two people involved. But maybe queer would have been a nice way to go about that instead.

Regarding 'queer' though: I was once told on another site that ace and aro people don't fall under that term. The person, unfortunately, didn't bother to explain the many reasons they said there were but I've been wondering about that (I think that was actually in response to a discussion about QPRs? :blob_hmm_two:). Have you ever heard about that or any explanation on that? It seemed to have to do in part with the history of the term but I'll be honest that I don't know anything about that either since I'm not that much into history in general

Quick edit: Guys, can I just throw in real quick that I'm really happy that we can discuss these kinds of issues on the SH forums this nicely and share information? :blob_aww:
 

bafflinghaze

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"Queer" is also my go-to, but the issue is that there are people who aren't on board with reclaiming the slur and all, so we're technically not supposed to use it without permission.

Which sends us back to go round and round again...
Well, queer is actually reclaimed and used academically too, even. In places like Australia (where I'm from), it's in common use.... Same as the UK.

I feel like the US is the only place with hangups?
 

Moonpearl

The Yuri Empress
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
764
Points
133
The person definitely is. Do we just declare the relationship a queer one as well then? I actually once saw (was on Twitter though which is a hellhole so not sure I can trust anything there) that we shouldn't assign words like 'heterosexual', 'homosexual' etc. to relationships but only the actual people involved in them because, well, a relationship can't have a sexuality. I think the background was that a bisexual person in a hetero/homo relationship might feel their sexuality erased if the relationship was dubbed hetero/homo. Personally, I thought it was more about the gender of the two people involved. But maybe queer would have been a nice way to go about that instead.
Queer is a catch-all that doesn't erase anyone's sexuality and doesn't force itself as a personal identifier on the people involved. It's also more of a descriptive term amongst the community, rather than a hardcore identity.
That's why "queer" is supposed to be safe to use, but it sucks hearing people describe you as a "straight relationship" when one or more participants are bisexual.

Relationships involving bi folk usually have different dynamics to truly straight relationships, after all.

Regarding 'queer' though: I was once told on another site that ace and aro people don't fall under that term. The person, unfortunately, didn't bother to explain the many reasons they said there were but I've been wondering about that (I think that was actually in response to a discussion about QPRs? :blob_hmm_two:). Have you ever heard about that or any explanation on that? It seemed to have to do in part with the history of the term but I'll be honest that I don't know anything about that either since I'm not that much into history in general
Oh. Big oof. Were you around for the anti-ace and anti-aro witchhunts that kicked off several years ago? There are a lot of a-holes who went around saying that ace and aro people faced no problems, and were therefore basically just straight, not queer, etc. Would not listen when we (I being part of the ace community at the time) explained the issues we faced.

Ace and aro folk have always been part of the community and anyone saying otherwise is talking out their ass.

But that's maybe too political, so that's all I'll say on that for now...
Well, queer is actually reclaimed and used academically too, even. In places like Australia (where I'm from), it's in common use.... Same as the UK.

I feel like the US is the only place with hangups?
I'm from the UK, but even I don't know where we stand on it. Queer is common usage everywhere, but not comfortable for all people, was what was being said, I think?

To be honest, I'm "bad" and just use it anyway.
Quick edit: Guys, can I just throw in real quick that I'm really happy that we can discuss these kinds of issues on the SH forums this nicely and share information? :blob_aww:
It's definitely a nice change~!
 

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Points
108
The discussion is so long and fruitful! Thanks everyone for pitching in, but I'm mainly responding to yansusu here ^^, because I am only hypothetically talking about agender that would still nominally fulfill all the tropes of BL. (Including the assumed male + assumed homosexual orientation that is never stated to be otherwise but only gleaned from context). I.e. not so much a gender-focused discussion as a literary-exploration discussion of concepts... :blob_hmm_two: At least I think so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though ^^.

I actually really love engaging in this. The only thing I'm worried about is whether we're annoying others here and should rather open another thread :blob_blank: But then again, the thread is complaining about the popularity of BL and we're basically questioning what even counts as BL so I'd say let's continue :blobrofl:

:blob_aww:

I'm afraid we'll slide into linguist territory here again but I guess the question would first be: What does it mean to 'address' the concept? To me, just by referring to the AI (I'll run with that one and ignore the god because I'm lazy like that) as a genderless protagonist in its thoughts, the issue already is addressed in my eyes. I don't need the AI to even think about gender outside of that, I'll just take its thoughts at face-value.


This is actually really interesting. I think the difference between this and your premise is though which perspective the story is seen through: If the AI is the MC (lol?) and we get to read its thoughts, there is - at least to me - no doubt about its genderless state. In this case, though, the person not being a woman but being referred to as 'she' is not the MC as far as I understand so we couldn't say for sure what's in their thoughts and it isn't addressed that way. In this case, I would expect that a person that is misgendered (especially if it happens consistently) would address the issue and try to explain. If that doesn't happen, then either the person is super non-confrontational or they are, in fact, content with being addressed that way and thus, might actually be a woman after all, stereotypes be damned.
I think here, it is important how the other character reacts in the book itself. And that reaction is what actually addresses the issue of gender.

Linguistic territory cannot intimidate me! :blob_paint: But in all seriousness, I was being as literal as possible when I said that in my premise -- it will be NEVER addressed. Like, for example, can you imagine writing a story that never describes the protagonist's skin color? There are such stories written, and some are written specifically to check the readers' biases and whether they can deduce the race/color of a protagonist just based on the MC's interactions with the world. It's not a recent thing (such stories first appeared as far as 50s, I think?) -- but just last month, I read this exact story in Nautilus scifi section.

Thus, the MC could be white, could be black, could be Asian. If the author chose to tag it "Indigenous American", they could, and the tag would be hard to dispute if that is what it is, after all. And, most amazing thing, the story is actually about race and prejudice, o_o. It specifically wants to explore what race can mean if we are not given clues about what it actually is and have to assume a lot of things about it. Like Ancillary Justice did with sex and gender through the use of language.

Likewise, the original Metroid never stated that the protag was a chick, yet she is. Her gender was revealed only much later, yet she would still be tagged as Female Protag in the original game because that's what she is even if the game NEVER addressed it.

Also, Yansusu! What are you doing to meeeee? I was so inspired by this topic, I actually fully went ahead and wrote a frigging Prologue of a BL story with a genderless protagonist who never addresses the issue of their actual gender.

:blob_blank:

I was merely trying to explore how I can avoid delving into this discussion even as the protagonist comes to realize who he is (human/male). It's a close third person POV (it would have been too easy to do in First POV due to never needing to use pronouns, but also a bit harder because 1st POV suggests closer relation to the MC's thoughts and the 3rd POV allows me to be distant enough to never go into the reactions to gender AT ALL).

Anyway, here is the Prologue in question to how I perceive an agender AI BL story could begin earning both the "agender" and "BL" tags from me, the author. And yes, I spent my time writing this chapter-I-am-never-intending-to-continue rather than writing my actual book chapter for today and what the hell is wrong with me...

You can just skim it because it is really just a completely normal prologue for the sake of the discussion. But even if it was just a single chapter in existence, what tags could it have warranted?

(Also please ignore the actual writing. I was in a hurry).

He opened his eyes and for the first time recoiled from seeing... color.

No, to be fair, this was his first time opening his eyes at all. Because, prior to this very moment, he... had never had any.

He was familiar with the concept of vision and the way colors interacted with the retina of a human eye. The angles of refraction, the precise way the light bounced off the jelly-like surface, the transmitted signals it sent to the brain that he had always perceived as mere zeroes and ones.

But now, all of that -- came crashing to his mind. An assault, a barrage of sensations.

"Aaaahng..." He blinked again and again because this was what his body demanded he did.

He found it strangely easy to follow its lead. Like a programmed route, like a guiding hand. He didn't even need to question it. The body knew better. Instinctively, by its very nature.

Following a similar impulse, he sat up. Shielding his sensitive eyes with a hand (he had a hand, too?!), he trembled and heaved, getting slowly used to the feeling of being... alive.

Of being a physical object. In the world. And not the world of text as his previous world had been.

No. This was what all the texts in existence were about.

This was the experience of a person -- opening his eyes for the very first time and breathing the first painful gulp of boundless air.

"I am..." he said, realizing that he could.

With shaken hands, he touched his chest, his shoulders, his... face. The nose, the eyes, the lips. The unbearable excitement of it all.

"I am... who?" the next word slipped out of his mouth, uninvited. But nonetheless crucial.

Who was he, really?

"You are the being previously known as System S," the voice one would struggle to call anything other than mechanical, announced from behind his back. "The Architect had decided you need to inhibit this body for the mission. After all, the body's former user has expired and the body is useless to us without a host. That said, we do not have any extra human hosts to put into it. Thus--"

"System S?" he said, remembering.

Yes, that was his name. His original, true name. System S.

It felt so familiar to say it, to respond to it affirmatively like to a pressed button.

"I'm listening?" said the same mechanical voice coming from within the sphere of pure white light next to the membranous cocoon bed he was in. "What do you need from me?"

He frowned, unsure. Why was this voice responding to his own name?

Then the harsh truth drenched him in cold with the realization.

This... program he was talking to... it was him. It had been him, mere minutes ago. The faceless, disembodied voice amassed from strings of data and prerecorded speech. This was the real System S.

Not him.

He was... someone else now.

His body had the clear appearance of a man in his early twenties as he could see in the reflective surface of the walls around him. Disheveled blue hair, skin the color of translucent whitish opal, the obvious markings of the Inkist tattoos imprinted on his chest and forearms. Faint light bled within these tattoos, pulsing through his body in a manner he knew was called "healthy" in the human custom of this place.

That said, the Raziari Empire's culture referred to this phenomenon as "monstrous" instead, so what did he even know about it? Most human culture stereotypes made no sense to him, yet he found it easy to accept regardless.

He couldn't even tell if the color of his hair was truly "blue" or if it would be called "green" on another planet. The word had simply come to him from within his memory, and he used it. Most abstract concepts of human culture were like this. Transient and irrelevant. But it didn't mean they were useless. His body found them quite useful and was naturally guided by them.

He decided that so should he.

"System S," he tried, and marveled at how simple it was, to rely on this artificial companion so conveniently offered to him in his first hours of his existence. "What is my name, then?"

He stood up, rolling his shoulders and spreading his arms. Aaah, how heavenly it felt, to do this!

He'd never had shoulders before yet he was already a diehard fan!

"Ao Yumin," System S replied.

Ao Yumin.

Ao... Yumin. Myself?
he wondered. To be honest, he wouldn't mind if his name was "rock" or "toilet" all the same, but he still found it charming that it sounded like an actual human name.

He already felt warm and somewhat fuzzy, just imagining hearing it from someone else.

Preferably from someone other than this... System S he was talking to. From a real human, maybe. Without them ever knowing that he, himself, wasn't.

So absorbed he was in this new idea he had almost missed when System S went on speaking bossily.

"You will only have a month to reach your objectives. In case your actions go too far off-course, an automated goal-reorienter will assume control of your body to aid you in your mission," System S continued, "Your goal for the infiltration into the Raziari Empire would be to find the revolutionary leader known under the alias Jadeite and assassinate--"

...!

A blast thundered through the room, blowing all windows and crystal screen surfaces in a shard-like storm. Ao Yumin only managed to duck when the fine dust of the broken glass breathed at him with a fiery exhale.

What...? Why!

He snapped to look around, his gut churning with dread for the very first time.

He despised the sensation.

Where the System S had just been, a blinding column of light was surging up, spasming, until it fizzled out. The artificial voice sputtered and screeched and tried to continue speaking their mission directive as usual --

-- but Ao Yumin could not understand a single word.

Because, from within the new gash in the wall, people -- real, human people -- poured in over the melted plastic rubble. Their crystal guns cocked, their transparent visors covered with clouds of fast-changing data glowing in the room foggy with smoke. One of the people gave the corner of the room a special attention -- where the melted and bubbling processor AI center was sparking with its last dying moments.

The core of System S's existence, Ao Yumin realized numbly.

His previous core, too.

But not now, apparently, because though the processor was clearly destroyed in front of his eyes -- he himself was still here and still aware. And... alive.

"Yumin!" the tallest man in the small group that had broken in, gasped. He rushed to Ao Yumin and grabbed him by the shoulders, then drew him in for a painful, disorienting hug. "Are you okay?! What did they do to you?! Did they torture you?"

"Jadeite," one of the other people snapped, wary. "We need to leave. Now. They're coming for us!"

"Please tell me you're all right," Jadeite told Ao Yumin again, ignoring the others as best he could. "Please tell me they didn't do anything to you."

...

"Mm," Ao Yumin said, dizzy.

What else could he say?

He wasn't scared of death. At least, before, he hadn't been. But now... this body of his... It was scared. And it was scared of whatever these people could do to this body if they knew that the real Ao Yumin had long... expired, according to System S's words.

Expired.

Jeez, it now sounded downright terrifying. To expire...

"I'm fine," he lied. Then threw one last glance at the fuming, pitiful remains of the System S's melted core processor. Shaken, he grabbed onto Jadeite person firmer -- just because the body seemed so comfortable doing that.

And he wanted to do everything this body found comfortable.

Comfortable, and pleasant, and sweet. All of it. For as long as he could.

"Take me away from here," he whispered. "Please."

What I mean by it, is that what follows can go 2 routes:

  1. The completely normal BL about enemies-to-lovers, etc. NO mention of what the MC thinks of his gender like there was none in the prologue. A lot of "wow, fingers!", "ohmygod, coffee tastes yum!" and other fluff content about discovering humanness.
  2. The completely abnormal BL about gender concepts and what they are/aren't without EVER mentioning gender like that one scifi story I told you above. If they can do it, so can I (I hope :sweat_smile:).
Either way, I think I can manage to write this entire story without addressing the perception of gender within the Protag's POV once in both these cases. To him, it'd be like mentioning the color of his eyes. (He didn't mention it at all in his own description and never will). It's not important. He doesn't even think about it because he is not taught to think about it.

Not being aware or interested about it to a degree he can't even think about it = agender times 100 because he can't even comprehend it.

The BL angle will be the typical BL narrative and you can probably imagine it yourselves without me ever writing it ^^.

And I actually realized as I was finishing this prologue that it reminds me a lot about --


Where the genderless mushroom is the Protag. I haven't actually read it so I can't say how much/little it goes into the perception of the Protag's gender, but I can assure you that if I finished writing the story I made a prologue for above -- I would manage to do it without ever stating what gender the Protagonist actually perceives himself to be.

The reader, of course, can assume it's a he because of the male pronouns and bodily reactions and behaviors, but that'll be exactly like Ancillary Justice. What reader assumes =/= what the character is.
 

Assurbanipal_II

Empress of the Four Corners of the World
Joined
Jul 27, 2019
Messages
1,921
Points
153
The discussion is so long and fruitful! Thanks everyone for pitching in, but I'm mainly responding to yansusu here ^^, because I am only hypothetically talking about agender that would still nominally fulfill all the tropes of BL. (Including the assumed male + assumed homosexual orientation that is never stated to be otherwise but only gleaned from context). I.e. not so much a gender-focused discussion as a literary-exploration discussion of concepts... :blob_hmm_two: At least I think so.

Correct me if I'm wrong, though ^^.



:blob_aww:



Linguistic territory cannot intimidate me! :blob_paint: But in all seriousness, I was being as literal as possible when I said that in my premise -- it will be NEVER addressed. Like, for example, can you imagine writing a story that never describes the protagonist's skin color? There are such stories written, and some are written specifically to check the readers' biases and whether they can deduce the race/color of a protagonist just based on the MC's interactions with the world. It's not a recent thing (such stories first appeared as far as 50s, I think?) -- but just last month, I read this exact story in Nautilus scifi section.

Thus, the MC could be white, could be black, could be Asian. If the author chose to tag it "Indigenous American", they could, and the tag would be hard to dispute if that is what it is, after all. And, most amazing thing, the story is actually about race and prejudice, o_o. It specifically wants to explore what race can mean if we are not given clues about what it actually is and have to assume a lot of things about it. Like Ancillary Justice did with sex and gender through the use of language.

Likewise, the original Metroid never stated that the protag was a chick, yet she is. Her gender was revealed only much later, yet she would still be tagged as Female Protag in the original game because that's what she is even if the game NEVER addressed it.

Also, Yansusu! What are you doing to meeeee? I was so inspired by this topic, I actually fully went ahead and wrote a frigging Prologue of a BL story with a genderless protagonist who never addresses the issue of their actual gender.

:blob_blank:

I was merely trying to explore how I can avoid delving into this discussion even as the protagonist comes to realize who he is (human/male). It's a close third person POV (it would have been too easy to do in First POV due to never needing to use pronouns, but also a bit harder because 1st POV suggests closer relation to the MC's thoughts and the 3rd POV allows me to be distant enough to never go into the reactions to gender AT ALL).

Anyway, here is the Prologue in question to how I perceive an agender AI BL story could begin earning both the "agender" and "BL" tags from me, the author. And yes, I spent my time writing this chapter-I-am-never-intending-to-continue rather than writing my actual book chapter for today and what the hell is wrong with me...

You can just skim it because it is really just a completely normal prologue for the sake of the discussion. But even if it was just a single chapter in existence, what tags could it have warranted?

(Also please ignore the actual writing. I was in a hurry).

He opened his eyes and for the first time recoiled from seeing... color.

No, to be fair, this was his first time opening his eyes at all. Because, prior to this very moment, he... had never had any.

He was familiar with the concept of vision and the way colors interacted with the retina of a human eye. The angles of refraction, the precise way the light bounced off the jelly-like surface, the transmitted signals it sent to the brain that he had always perceived as mere zeroes and ones.

But now, all of that -- came crashing to his mind. An assault, a barrage of sensations.

"Aaaahng..." He blinked again and again because this was what his body demanded he did.

He found it strangely easy to follow its lead. Like a programmed route, like a guiding hand. He didn't even need to question it. The body knew better. Instinctively, by its very nature.

Following a similar impulse, he sat up. Shielding his sensitive eyes with a hand (he had a hand, too?!), he trembled and heaved, getting slowly used to the feeling of being... alive.

Of being a physical object. In the world. And not the world of text as his previous world had been.

No. This was what all the texts in existence were about.

This was the experience of a person -- opening his eyes for the very first time and breathing the first painful gulp of boundless air.

"I am..." he said, realizing that he could.

With shaken hands, he touched his chest, his shoulders, his... face. The nose, the eyes, the lips. The unbearable excitement of it all.

"I am... who?" the next word slipped out of his mouth, uninvited. But nonetheless crucial.

Who was he, really?

"You are the being previously known as System S," the voice one would struggle to call anything other than mechanical, announced from behind his back. "The Architect had decided you need to inhibit this body for the mission. After all, the body's former user has expired and the body is useless to us without a host. That said, we do not have any extra human hosts to put into it. Thus--"

"System S?" he said, remembering.

Yes, that was his name. His original, true name. System S.

It felt so familiar to say it, to respond to it affirmatively like to a pressed button.

"I'm listening?" said the same mechanical voice coming from within the sphere of pure white light next to the membranous cocoon bed he was in. "What do you need from me?"

He frowned, unsure. Why was this voice responding to his own name?

Then the harsh truth drenched him in cold with the realization.

This... program he was talking to... it was him. It had been him, mere minutes ago. The faceless, disembodied voice amassed from strings of data and prerecorded speech. This was the real System S.

Not him.

He was... someone else now.

His body had the clear appearance of a man in his early twenties as he could see in the reflective surface of the walls around him. Disheveled blue hair, skin the color of translucent whitish opal, the obvious markings of the Inkist tattoos imprinted on his chest and forearms. Faint light bled within these tattoos, pulsing through his body in a manner he knew was called "healthy" in the human custom of this place.

That said, the Raziari Empire's culture referred to this phenomenon as "monstrous" instead, so what did he even know about it? Most human culture stereotypes made no sense to him, yet he found it easy to accept regardless.

He couldn't even tell if the color of his hair was truly "blue" or if it would be called "green" on another planet. The word had simply come to him from within his memory, and he used it. Most abstract concepts of human culture were like this. Transient and irrelevant. But it didn't mean they were useless. His body found them quite useful and was naturally guided by them.

He decided that so should he.

"System S," he tried, and marveled at how simple it was, to rely on this artificial companion so conveniently offered to him in his first hours of his existence. "What is my name, then?"

He stood up, rolling his shoulders and spreading his arms. Aaah, how heavenly it felt, to do this!

He'd never had shoulders before yet he was already a diehard fan!

"Ao Yumin," System S replied.

Ao Yumin.

Ao... Yumin. Myself?
he wondered. To be honest, he wouldn't mind if his name was "rock" or "toilet" all the same, but he still found it charming that it sounded like an actual human name.

He already felt warm and somewhat fuzzy, just imagining hearing it from someone else.

Preferably from someone other than this... System S he was talking to. From a real human, maybe. Without them ever knowing that he, himself, wasn't.

So absorbed he was in this new idea he had almost missed when System S went on speaking bossily.

"You will only have a month to reach your objectives. In case your actions go too far off-course, an automated goal-reorienter will assume control of your body to aid you in your mission," System S continued, "Your goal for the infiltration into the Raziari Empire would be to find the revolutionary leader known under the alias Jadeite and assassinate--"

...!

A blast thundered through the room, blowing all windows and crystal screen surfaces in a shard-like storm. Ao Yumin only managed to duck when the fine dust of the broken glass breathed at him with a fiery exhale.

What...? Why!

He snapped to look around, his gut churning with dread for the very first time.

He despised the sensation.

Where the System S had just been, a blinding column of light was surging up, spasming, until it fizzled out. The artificial voice sputtered and screeched and tried to continue speaking their mission directive as usual --

-- but Ao Yumin could not understand a single word.

Because, from within the new gash in the wall, people -- real, human people -- poured in over the melted plastic rubble. Their crystal guns cocked, their transparent visors covered with clouds of fast-changing data glowing in the room foggy with smoke. One of the people gave the corner of the room a special attention -- where the melted and bubbling processor AI center was sparking with its last dying moments.

The core of System S's existence, Ao Yumin realized numbly.

His previous core, too.

But not now, apparently, because though the processor was clearly destroyed in front of his eyes -- he himself was still here and still aware. And... alive.

"Yumin!" the tallest man in the small group that had broken in, gasped. He rushed to Ao Yumin and grabbed him by the shoulders, then drew him in for a painful, disorienting hug. "Are you okay?! What did they do to you?! Did they torture you?"

"Jadeite," one of the other people snapped, wary. "We need to leave. Now. They're coming for us!"

"Please tell me you're all right," Jadeite told Ao Yumin again, ignoring the others as best he could. "Please tell me they didn't do anything to you."

...

"Mm," Ao Yumin said, dizzy.

What else could he say?

He wasn't scared of death. At least, before, he hadn't been. But now... this body of his... It was scared. And it was scared of whatever these people could do to this body if they knew that the real Ao Yumin had long... expired, according to System S's words.

Expired.

Jeez, it now sounded downright terrifying. To expire...

"I'm fine," he lied. Then threw one last glance at the fuming, pitiful remains of the System S's melted core processor. Shaken, he grabbed onto Jadeite person firmer -- just because the body seemed so comfortable doing that.

And he wanted to do everything this body found comfortable.

Comfortable, and pleasant, and sweet. All of it. For as long as he could.

"Take me away from here," he whispered. "Please."

What I mean by it, is that what follows can go 2 routes:

  1. The completely normal BL about enemies-to-lovers, etc. NO mention of what the MC thinks of his gender like there was none in the prologue. A lot of "wow, fingers!", "ohmygod, coffee tastes yum!" and other fluff content about discovering humanness.
  2. The completely abnormal BL about gender concepts and what they are/aren't without EVER mentioning gender like that one scifi story I told you above. If they can do it, so can I (I hope :sweat_smile:).
Either way, I think I can manage to write this entire story without addressing the perception of gender within the Protag's POV once in both these cases. To him, it'd be like mentioning the color of his eyes. (He didn't mention it at all in his own description and never will). It's not important. He doesn't even think about it because he is not taught to think about it.

Not being aware or interested about it to a degree he can't even think about it = agender times 100 because he can't even comprehend it.

The BL angle will be the typical BL narrative and you can probably imagine it yourselves without me ever writing it ^^.

And I actually realized as I was finishing this prologue that it reminds me a lot about --


Where the genderless mushroom is the Protag. I haven't actually read it so I can't say how much/little it goes into the perception of the Protag's gender, but I can assure you that if I finished writing the story I made a prologue for above -- I would manage to do it without ever stating what gender the Protagonist actually perceives himself to be.

The reader, of course, can assume it's a he because of the male pronouns and bodily reactions and behaviors, but that'll be exactly like Ancillary Justice. What reader assumes =/= what the character is.

You are essentially arguing here about the beard of the prophet. You really.
 
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