On Defining The "BL" Genre

[bafflinghaze]

There are so many different types of stories featuring a guy loving another guy. On the more female (both straight and queer) dominated side, are the genre names "Boys Love" biasing towards Eastern tropes, and M/M romance biasing towards Western tropes. On the more male dominated side, we have bara and gay [romantic] fiction respectively

At least, that's how I see it. Thoughts? Discussions?

Scribblehub only has one genre tag to label them all, but even so, it's pretty clear from fic summaries which one a story falls under, yes?

And of course we would have stories that fall outside, or at the fringe, of these genres!! But I personally think if the story employs enough tropes or elements, it still deserves to be tagged as such, and readers can then decide to read or not~

 

[cravingsoul]

I saw BL and here I came shamelessly to promote my work.

Finally found you(BL)

I searched for you everywhere. But I don't trust you. It's ok, now that I have finally found you I am ready to wait until you are ready. The Alpha Hier of a multinational company encounters the love of his life finally, a cute and charming Omega who is the...

www.scribblehub.com

 

[yansusustories]

God, you are opening a can of worms with this ...

@Queenfisher and I already had a long-ass discussion about exactly this question in this thread: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/my-issue-or-my-opinion-about-bl-and-gender-bender-novel.3532/

Edit cause I'm a dumbass that always posts too early: My POV is it's BL/Gay Romance as long as it is a story revolving around some kinda relationship between two guys. Queenfisher thinks differently and there are way too many messages to summarize past that point

 

[Moonpearl]

I feel like it would be difficult to know how to tag stories if we split them up...

 

[bafflinghaze]

God, you are opening a can of worms with this ...

@Queenfisher and I already had a long-ass discussion about exactly this question in this thread: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/my-issue-or-my-opinion-about-bl-and-gender-bender-novel.3532/

Edit cause I'm a dumbass that always posts too early: My POV is it's BL/Gay Romance as long as it is a story revolving around some kinda relationship between two guys. Queenfisher thinks differently and there are way too many messages to summarize past that point

I think it would be better to open a can on worms on a forum topic that is receptive towards BL Pretty sure that I agree with you, that as long as the textual evidence and word of god/author explicitly defines the two characters in love as men, then it's BL/Gay Romance.

I feel like it would be difficult to know how to tag stories if we split them up...

I agree that splitting them up as tags is not the way to go/keeping them under one genre makes the most sense.

 

[tigerine]

I have felt for a long time that my work would be better genre-tagged as BL (rather than 'queer' or 'LGBTQ'), but it's difficult to differentiate between BL and mlm queer romance except that "I know it when I see it".

In general, I think that we can say that Queer or LGBTQ Romance is the overarching umbrella category, because it portrays queer relationships. Boys' Love is an opt-in label for a specific style of story written in a style that obeys BL/danmei tropes and genre conventions.

 

[yansusustories]

I think it would be better to open a can on worms on a forum topic that is receptive towards BL

I somehow feel called out

I agree that splitting them up as tags is not the way to go/keeping them under one genre makes the most sense.

Actually, what are we trying to discuss here? Differences between the labels? In an attempt to maybe re-label BL or something?

 

[bafflinghaze]

Actually, what are we trying to discuss here? Differences between the labels? In an attempt to maybe re-label BL or something?

Actually, I wanted to just talk about how great BL is

(And also how it seems to be a love/hate genre lol)

 

[mystearicah]

From what I understood of what BL is, it’s about the love between males which focuses more on the ‘romance’ part, of how it came to be or such. Since there are also genres like Yaoi which portrays the sexual relationship between the male characters. I have not yet delved deeper into the other sub-genres of male to male so that’s what I only know

Also, there are some BL stories that still has awesome plot even without the element of BL. The bl in it just add twists and spice, I like those very much. (●♡∀♡)

 

[yansusustories]

Actually, I wanted to just talk about how great BL is

(And also how it seems to be a love/hate genre lol)

Oh Okay, then I'll just jump in with some thoughts:

So, to me, there are actually two ways in terms of 'gay stuff': One being gay romance which I already said above what I think of (and which would include BL and all the other sub-genres) and then I see gay fiction as its own thing. Gay fiction would basically be everything outside of romance but gay
I think I saw that distinction somewhere on a blog once early on when I was transitioning from my pseudo-het romances over to writing gay romance and I felt it made sense. Like, Gay Romance is romance which is just romance but gay. Gay fiction is also just normal fiction (e.g. could be anything from adventure novels to science fiction to crime-solving whatever) but the MC would be gay. It could feature relationships but doesn't even need to as long as the MC is unmistakably gay. (Cause you can be gay and single.)

 

[BenJepheneT]

Personally it all comes down to the very fabric of the discussion of relationships itself.

When does love truly counts? Is it the physical drive of bodies? Is it simply the places in which we put others in our hearts? Is it the goodwill in which we wish upon our significant other? Is it simply thinking about them more than others that constitutes as love?

If so, what's stopping that depraved side behind the conscience of our soul to be "love"? Sick men in their head who sees their carnal desires in animals, and those who feel passion for suffering, whether inflicted or felt by themselves. Is love merely a metaphorical roadblock we put to make a distinction between our inner demons and our conscience?

Then what truly is Boys' Love? Is liking a trap gay? What if I just wanna stick it in the bum? That's not gay, is it? The trap is dressed like a girl, and that bum can just as easily be replaced with a woman's bum. Is that Boys' Love? I pour my heart out and think of traps and bums everyday and yet I doubt my true feelings for Boys. For men. Is it really gay? Or am I just a man who'd sunken too deep into his demon where the depths I've reached have barred my feelings from even being considered.

Is handholding with another guy gay? Is forming a heartfelt relationship gay? I'm best friends with many mates, so much so that if they need to stick it in my crapper to live, by the Gods of the Nords, I'll let them do so. Is that true love? Or is that my inner demon speaking?

Boys' love I understand. But Boy's Love? I will never be able to fathom.

 

[minacia]

Hmm, for me, gay/queer fiction differs from BL in that it is targeted to LGBTQ readers.

I think it’s genuinely a different genre because I’ve heard LGBTQ readers say that they hate yaoi/danmei/shounenai since it portrays them inaccurately or poorly.

I was searching around since I was curious, but it appears that there are communities where LGBT authors and readers frequently post stories.

 

[Queenfisher]

Who is teasing me on these forums? Who is summoning the BL-obsessed Eldritch bird that is me? ^^

You cannot make such a thread and not make me peek into it! Plus, @yansusustories explicitly summons me!

God, you are opening a can of worms with this ...

@Queenfisher and I already had a long-ass discussion about exactly this question in this thread: https://forum.scribblehub.com/threads/my-issue-or-my-opinion-about-bl-and-gender-bender-novel.3532/

Edit cause I'm a dumbass that always posts too early: My POV is it's BL/Gay Romance as long as it is a story revolving around some kinda relationship between two guys. Queenfisher thinks differently and there are way too many messages to summarize past that point

Do not do me dirty like that!

Your definition changed! I actually like and agree with this one -- "story revolving around some kinda relationship between two guys"! It aligns perfectly with everything I stand for .

First, I dislike it when people say it has to be "love" and love only. "Some kind of relationship" walks around that and is very good ^^. And second, "guy" is a very nice word to use here because it's much vaguer than the restrictive "identifies as male" we talked about before.

Guy can informally mean "man" but formally is genderless and even specieless (I can call a dog, a doll, even a mushroom -- a "cute little guy!") and in one of its definitions can mean"likeness, model, representation" which is ALL I'VE EVER DREAMED OF for fictional characters ^^.

So !

By the way, this definition of BL is mine now! I'm stealing it!

The only thing I'd fix in it is "two guys" --> "two or more guys". Because reasons...

Personally it all comes down to the very fabric of the discussion of relationships itself.

Actually, what you describe sounds eerily like many kinds of BL with a straight protagonist. So I feel like if you were a character, you might have fallen into a BL genre depending on how you act on these thoughts of yours

Actually, I wanted to just talk about how great BL is

(And also how it seems to be a love/hate genre lol)

Yeah, I've seen @minacia 's Survey and how BL is the most hated genre on all of SH.



I'd say -- BL is great if you know how to pick one for you! I do believe that everyone can find a BL that perfectly suits their needs if only they gave it a chance because "some kind of relationship between two guys" can lean more to the bromance than romance and can be, like... 90% plot, 10% gay. It is a pretty wide genre by definition, but of course it requires digging through to find the combination that suits you -- and most people would never even bother.

Re: western vs eastern -- I second @tigerine in that you know it when you see it.

Personally, I am dying for something in the middle and I think some SH BL leans somewhat to that as well.

My personal take is that I dislike Eastern for sometimes becoming a bit too voyeuristic (the target demographic is obvious) while I dislike Western for focusing too much on the plight and hardship of being gay rather than on how normal it should be.

The romance between two otherwise normalized characters who "just happen to be gay" would be a perfect combination for me. Like @SailusGebel wrote in another thread -- I prefer genderless/orientationless actors in a story who can be switched to being gay guys in the last moment because while it's an intrinsic part of who they are, it is not the part that defines them. Their personalities, and their arcs, and their story define them.

Or in short, I want good stories that just happen to be BL, I guess ^^.

 

[minacia]

I skimmed through the other thread (the conversation was too long so I didn't read it before), and it's a really interesting discussion.

I think I'm going to take a third (ish) diametric position.

Rather than the character's own gender-identity or the author's intention, I think the reader's perspective is critical for classifying something as BL. If the reader reads a relationship between two characters and considers it to be BL, therefore it is BL

The best example I can use to explain this is the usage of "trap" in Japanese anime. Characters commonly referred to as "traps" virtual never self-identify as "traps", but are coded that way by the fanbase. To me, BL is sort of similar in the sense in the sense that two characters in a story never think to themselves: "Oh, I'm in a BL relationship."

I agree with QueenFisher's perspective that nonbinary/agender characters can still be in BL relationships. My reasoning for this is that I read plenty of ABO, and I sort of enjoy working with fantasy male biology (i.e. mpreg). I've even considered Omegaverses where there are only men in the entire world (and no concept of women), which is interesting in itself because the ABO model technically provides three genders even if it doesn't lie along Earth's male-female dichotomy.

My conclusion over the years is that nothing matters unless the fans consider it to be BL.

It doesn't matter how the characters view themselves. They usually aren't self-aware that they are in a BL novel. It's really only the observer's perspective as readers who project a genre classification onto the relationship.

 

[yansusustories]

Do not do me dirty like that!

Your definition changed!

No, no, no! You are doing me dirty here! My definitions were:

male: person/character who identifies as male
BL: stories that have a relationship between two men at their center

And to me, two guys are still a set of males (I only see it as not gendered if it's used to directly address a crowd 'cause context matters; one guy, two guys, three guys, ... any set number of guys, really, are all male to me) and I called it a relationship already anyway! No change there!
But you can still have the supposedly 'new' definition and assign other values to the terms however much you like

One thing I totally wanna mention though in regard to this:

First, I dislike it when people say it has to be "love" and love only.

When I originally defined what the genre meant to me in the other thread, I was thinking exactly about this. And I might have a different idea of this because I happen to be aro but to me, 'bromance' is actually love. I am currently also reading a BL story about two brothers over on NU and I realized that I likely wouldn't even have needed an actual BL aspect to enjoy it because those warm fuzzy feelings between them were already love without actually entering a typical BL relationship.

Basically, there isn't just romantic love. There's the love you have for your family or friends and I sure hope especially the former isn't the same type of love for you that you hold romantically or sexually for somebody It still stays love though. That is - to me at least - the actual meaning of that famous half-break up-line "I love you but I'm not in love with you!"

 

[BenJepheneT]

Actually, what you describe sounds eerily like many kinds of BL with a straight protagonist. So I feel like if you were a character, you might have fallen into a BL genre depending on how you act on these thoughts of yours

The gay...

Is it real?

 

[SailusGebel]

Can I ask a really stupid question that holds no weight towards this discussion? How would you name, two guys, who didn't change their sex via hormones or surgery, yet identifies themselves as females, and get sexually attracted to those who identify themselves as females. And right now those two guys are in a relationship?

 

[minacia]

Can I ask a really stupid question that holds no weight towards this discussion? How would you name, two guys, who didn't change their sex via hormones or surgery, yet identifies themselves as females, and get sexually attracted to those who identify themselves as females. And right now those two guys are in a relationship?

If it were the real world, it would technically be lesbian transgender, although I would personally be surprised that they aren't at least somewhat bi/pan/demiromantic.

In the fictional world, depending on the author/genre/readerbase, a lot of those things could be thrown completely out of the window. It could be portrayed or fetishized as a "homosexual" relationship... similar to the way that "traps" in anime are a fantasy fetishization of gender-nonconforming/transgender people on Earth.

 

[minacia]

Can I ask a really stupid question that holds no weight towards this discussion? How would you name, two guys, who didn't change their sex via hormones or surgery, yet identifies themselves as females, and get sexually attracted to those who identify themselves as females. And right now those two guys are in a relationship?

Oh, as an addendum to this (and totally off-topic from the thread), there are a lot of reasons why two people can be in a relationship.

Relationships (and even marriages) aren't necessary sexual, and some people find the romantic qualities of their relationship more important than the sexual aspects. It is not surprising if a (self-identified) lesbian woman ends up in a heterosexual relationship or even marriage. It's more common than you might expect.

In fact, my sexuality actually doesn't perfectly match my partner's. We're engaged and have been together for eight years, but the romantic aspects of our relationship are more important to us than our slightly mismatched sexual preferences. Maybe it sounds kind of odd, but we're getting married because we don't think there is anyone out there who is better for us -- especially after all these years we spent closely together, and we really are committed to each other.

In other words, it's genuinely not odd for two lesbian transwoman to be in a relationship with each other. I've actually heard of many instances of that happening, but often I think it's because cisgender people can be scary to some LGBT folks.

 

[SailusGebel]

Oh, as an addendum to this (and totally off-topic from the thread), there are a lot of reasons why two people can be in a relationship.

Relationships (and even marriages) aren't necessary sexual, and some people find the romantic qualities of their relationship more important than the sexual aspects. It is not surprising if a (self-identified) lesbian woman ends up in a heterosexual relationship or even marriage. It's more common than you might expect.

In fact, my sexuality actually doesn't perfectly match my partner's. We're engaged and have been together for eight years, but the romantic aspects of our relationship are more important to us than our slightly mismatched sexual preferences. Maybe it sounds kind of odd, but we're getting married because we don't think there is anyone out there who is better for us -- especially after all these years we spent closely together, and we really are committed to each other.

In other words, it's genuinely not odd for two lesbian transwoman to be in a relationship with each other. I've actually heard of many instances of that happening, but often I think it's because cisgender people can be scary to some LGBT folks.

I was just talking about this very, very particular example for a research purpose. What you've written I know it myself.