On Defining The "BL" Genre

What would you prefer the BL and GL genres to be called?

  • Boys Love and Girls Love

    Votes: 9 45.0%
  • M/M and F/F

    Votes: 8 40.0%
  • Gay Romance and Lesbian Romance

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Gay Fiction and Lesbian Fiction

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Male/Male and Female/Female

    Votes: 6 30.0%
  • Men Loving Men (MLM) and Women Loving Women (WLW)

    Votes: 1 5.0%

  • Total voters
    20

Aoibh

Mademoiselle
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
322
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103
@tigerine

I just realized that you just might... ask me to write a thesis (or not you -- but someone else if they want my ruin :blob_no::blob_no::blob_no:) because I wouldn't be able to say no! I just love talking about Bl too much TT__TT.

So do not you dare. :blobspearpeek: I have too many books to read here on SH and too many chapters to write (literally, I've got a queue of 5 different books here on SH in the next 48 hours to read and comment on!!!). :blob_blank: AND I have to write two chapters in two days, with the average lengths of my chapters being ~6k words! :blob_teary:

If I write a BL thesis here as well, I will probably implode...

Spare me..............
is all of that possible within 48hrs?
 

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
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108
is all of that possible within 48hrs?

:blob_teary: :blob_teary::blob_teary:

I am afraid of the actual answer........

(It's not like I have to read ALL of the books from start to finish. :blob_cookie:I just need to read 5-10 chappies from each to fit my schedule, lol. But while reading is super easy to me -- and I can probably do it in just 2-3 hours -- commenting would be another deal entirely O_O. I do like to comment on everything I read, and I want to support as many creators here on SH as possible. I can't do it monetarily, so I try to do it with comments, likes, reads, etc. But the problem is that I just don't know how to fit it all at once and I am a bit afraid to let people down if I don't comment too often. And there are a LOT of books I want to read and comment on!

As an author here on SH, I know better than most what it's like to not receive any responses for your writing :blob_frown:. Some authors might feel like I abandoned them and stopped reading when that is not true! :blob_no: I just don't like commenting in general (introvert :blob_hide:), lol, so I am embarrassed to show up in their books without a comment (or 15 ^^). It all somehow snowballs me into anxiety sometimes and I end up getting distracted after a while >_<).


Sorry for off-topic, just getting worried a bit.

BL community for me is very important and so is SH overall. I met so many cool people here ^^. I want to give back to the community so I try doing my best, but I am still worried that it's not enough...

That makes me think of another thing related to BL in here. The lack of support for beginner authors.

Once, @yansusustories and @tigerine actually talked about this issue somewhere on the forum. About how it's a feedback loop where both sides lose something in the end.

That:

  • 1. most new authors are likely to wither down and stop writing on SH due to not meeting any reaction from the readership or from the fellow authors.

  • 2. but the readers are unlikely to read someone who has not yet proved themselves to be reliable and finish their book first. Thus they do not comment or react to new books.

  • 3. without comments/readers, the authors feel unwelcome and do not continue writing here... :blob_dizzy:

Just in the last months, there were several BL writers who seemingly left SH because of the lack of response to their stories :blob_teary:. I know we cannot force it and make people read/comment -- but the community overall can substitute it a little bit, I think. Being part of a community is also a support, albeit of a different sort and some can find their place in here through that and slowly build their presence on the main site in the process.

I also remember talking with @yansusustories and @minacia in different threads about how the SH Trending Tab cannot actually help some genres like BL at all. We simply do not benefit from it as much as other genres do

With all this said -- I wonder if there can be something like a more or less official BL-group here on SH to give a bit more visibility chance to new and upcoming authors for those who might be interested that can double like some sort of a BL-Trending Tab? Obviously not for every 1 chapter of a new book that appears but for those who are clearly writing a lot but cannot break out of the low rankings (for whichever reasons)...

Is this a bad idea?

(By the "BL-group" I mean like a topic to discuss ALL BL-related issues and new releases and ads for books like the one on NUF).

For example, for novels of the authors like these --

@bafflinghaze :blob_cookie:

Not all of them really need help (some of them are doing fine compared to most, lol) -- but some are somehow VERY unnoticed and perhaps they shouldn't be. That's not for me to decide though (I haven't read half of them) -- but I still felt that with how unliked BL is on this site (due to the Survey), promoting a little bit more novels in our genre and growing our active member group might be a good idea ^^.

So do you think a whole thread/topic devoted to just promotion of BL works and issues would not be too... weird to do??? :blob_sweat:
 
Joined
Jan 9, 2019
Messages
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Uwaa.... so much text.... I can't keep up :sweating_profusely:
Does any of that answer the question, Are there BL and GL novels that are not in the Romance genre?

Is that a possibility in the wide wide world of the infinite Imaginarium? What kind of story is it?
 
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minacia

perpetually sour
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
531
Points
133
Firstly, to say that rhetoric is "on me" and not on you, that's an incorrect statement. If someone was to use statements like "I think global warming is made up" or "I think vaccines are a hoax", it's correct to call those anti-science rhetoric, because that is what they are. Listeners can and should correctly identify the true motivations behind statements, and if there's a message that you're not intending to send, then consider that maybe there are meanings you're not aware of.

Which is to say, the anti-fujoshi rhetoric I'm referring to is rooted in misogyny and includes terms like "fetishizing" as dogwhistle terms to get people to dogpile on fans of m/m content. Tumblr user rottenboysclub, a gay Japanese fudanshi, has done a lot of really important work in informing and clarifying what a fujoshi/fudanshi/fujin is, and what they aren't (fetishizers). If you're innocently using the term 'fetishize' in relation to m/m content, then you should know you're using language that originates in redefining a Japanese word to denigrate and dismiss people that like m/m content. Since you've said you enjoy analyzing, I think you'll really enjoy these reads, as they cover everything historically, including the 'yaoi ronso'. Hope that helps!
I don't know...

I think for me, it's important to frame my response by starting with the fact that I generally read/write in the most questionable BL genres (omegaverse/mpreg/smut), and I generally acknowledge a lot of the m/m content (whether on ao3, which can get very rape-y) in this genre is generally fetishistic or harmful to certain lgbt communities. I was actually just reading an essay written by a transman about how a lot of transmale depictions in fanfiction written by cis people are destructive/fetishistic.

Fetishization of LGBT people absolutely exists in every form, not limited to just the instances that it occurs in BL. There is the occasional GL novel that fetishizes lesbians and the occasional GB novel that fetishizes transgender people. It absolutely exists.

I don't think anyone here is arguing that all m/m or f/f fiction is fetishistic (that's a ridiculous argument), but rather I think many of us are acknowledging that there are aspects of the fandom that do lean towards fetishizing.

I was reading some of the content on rotennboysclub and there are some areas that I find less compelling. In a number of his posts, he argues that damaging BL content is a thing of the past (a thing of the 80/90's or earlier), and that "modern BL" has gone past that, but my own observations on NU (and as a CN translator) directly contradicts that. Destructive m/m content continues to exist, continues to be written, and is alive and well on the internet. It's still being written today, and it's still very active on Chinese BL sites as well other areas on the Internet, and consequently still being translated and making it onto NU.

I think he maybe has a point that published BL manga in Japan has moved beyond that kind of damaging/fetishizing stuff (I mean, I wouldn't know since I don't live in Japan), but it absolutely continues to exist here on the Internet (I mean, I see it all the time >.<), and I think it's irresponsible to claim that it doesn't exist anymore, or that writing mpreg/omegaverse with rape isn't fetishistic.

I mean, this is my genre -- I do hardcore smut (and I admit it) -- but the least I can do is acknowledge what my subgenre is, own up to it, and not try to pretend that is universally LGBT-friendly. Ironically, I do also identify as LGBT myself, but when has that ever stopped one LGBT group from harming another one (whether that be bi-erasure, trans-exclusion, aro/ace-witchhunting)? Being queer doesn't render us immune from doing or saying things that are harmful to other LGBT demographics, and lots of us have self-hate in one form or another.
 

Aoibh

Mademoiselle
Joined
Sep 9, 2020
Messages
322
Points
103
:blob_teary: :blob_teary::blob_teary:

I am afraid of the actual answer........

(It's not like I have to read ALL of the books from start to finish. :blob_cookie:I just need to read 5-10 chappies from each to fit my schedule, lol. But while reading is super easy to me -- and I can probably do it in just 2-3 hours -- commenting would be another deal entirely O_O. I do like to comment on everything I read, and I want to support as many creators here on SH as possible. I can't do it monetarily, so I try to do it with comments, likes, reads, etc. But the problem is that I just don't know how to fit it all at once and I am a bit afraid to let people down if I don't comment too often. And there are a LOT of books I want to read and comment on!

As an author here on SH, I know better than most what it's like to not receive any responses for your writing :blob_frown:. Some authors might feel like I abandoned them and stopped reading when that is not true! :blob_no: I just don't like commenting in general (introvert :blob_hide:), lol, so I am embarrassed to show up in their books without a comment (or 15 ^^). It all somehow snowballs me into anxiety sometimes and I end up getting distracted after a while >_<).


Sorry for off-topic, just getting worried a bit.

BL community for me is very important and so is SH overall. I met so many cool people here ^^. I want to give back to the community so I try doing my best, but I am still worried that it's not enough...

That makes me think of another thing related to BL in here. The lack of support for beginner authors.

Once, @yansusustories and @tigerine actually talked about this issue somewhere on the forum. About how it's a feedback loop where both sides lose something in the end.

That:

  • 1. most new authors are likely to wither down and stop writing on SH due to not meeting any reaction from the readership or from the fellow authors.

  • 2. but the readers are unlikely to read someone who has not yet proved themselves to be reliable and finish their book first. Thus they do not comment or react to new books.

  • 3. without comments/readers, the authors feel unwelcome and do not continue writing here... :blob_dizzy:

Just in the last months, there were several BL writers who seemingly left SH because of the lack of response to their stories :blob_teary:. I know we cannot force it and make people read/comment -- but the community overall can substitute it a little bit, I think. Being part of a community is also a support, albeit of a different sort and some can find their place in here through that and slowly build their presence on the main site in the process.

I also remember talking with @yansusustories and @minacia in different threads about how the SH Trending Tab cannot actually help some genres like BL at all. We simply do not benefit from it as much as other genres do

With all this said -- I wonder if there can be something like a more or less official BL-group here on SH to give a bit more visibility chance to new and upcoming authors for those who might be interested that can double like some sort of a BL-Trending Tab? Obviously not for every 1 chapter of a new book that appears but for those who are clearly writing a lot but cannot break out of the low rankings (for whichever reasons)...

Is this a bad idea?

(By the "BL-group" I mean like a topic to discuss ALL BL-related issues and new releases and ads for books like the one on NUF).

For example, for novels of the authors like these --

@bafflinghaze :blob_cookie:

Not all of them really need help (some of them are doing fine compared to most, lol) -- but some are somehow VERY unnoticed and perhaps they shouldn't be. That's not for me to decide though (I haven't read half of them) -- but I still felt that with how unliked BL is on this site (due to the Survey), promoting a little bit more novels in our genre and growing our active member group might be a good idea ^^.

So do you think a whole thread/topic devoted to just promotion of BL works and issues would not be too... weird to do??? :blob_sweat:
I understand new authors, it's quite a daunting experience.
 

bafflinghaze

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
112
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103
oh noted, I took out adventure and I got two results (ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻ we need more FTM adventurers
You have to realise that AO3, people don't tag genre, but tag tropes instead. But I agree adding GenderBender + Trans Male Character is even rare on AO3 as well. Rather, it's GenderBender that is rare on AO3: the number of results of Trans Male Character (and Trans Female Character) is MUCH greater.

For example, for novels of the authors like these --

@bafflinghaze :blob_cookie:
Nani??? Am I on the list for authors with low visibility here?? I actually have okay visibility on tapas, and my fanfics on AO3 do very well (one of them very well :blob_melt: ).

modern BL" has gone past that, but my own observations on NU (and as a CN translator) directly contradicts that. Destructive m/m content continues to exist, continues to be written, and is alive and well on the internet. It's still being written today, and it's still very active on Chinese BL sites as well other areas on the Internet, and consequently still being translated and making it onto NU.
I think he maybe has a point that published BL manga in Japan has moved beyond that kind of damaging/fetishizing stuff (I mean, I wouldn't know since I don't live in Japan), but it absolutely continues to exist here on the Internet (I mean, I see it all the time >.<), and I think it's irresponsible to claim that it doesn't exist anymore, or that writing mpreg/omegaverse with rape isn't fetishistic.
I think it must also be how he versus you navigate BL spaces, i.e. you look out specifically for A/B/O works and he doesn't, leading to different reading experiences. It's probably true that the variety of [Japanese] BL has greatly expanded, meaning that you won't feel so "starved" that you felt compelled to pick up the things you don't really want to read.

So do you think a whole thread/topic devoted to just promotion of BL works and issues would not be too... weird to do??? :blob_sweat:
Would be good, though I wonder how many readers actually go onto the SH forums. I really would recommend crossposting to multiple places to capture a wider audience, including tapas (even though...ugh....I hate tapas's search so much....). But I mostly think this is just a time&community size problem. Just wait for SH to grow!

Maybe what is better is to have some kind of cheerleading writers' network. In the writing spaces where I've been, people sometimes request "cheerleaders", who either (1) literally just give encouragement to keep writing or (2) read [the start of] works-in-progress and again, give encouragement to keep writing. They aren't betas nor full-on readers, but this initial support is really nice.
 

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
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133
Once, @yansusustories and @tigerine actually talked about this issue somewhere on the forum. About how it's a feedback loop where both sides lose something in the end.
Personally, I felt like I walked head-on into a hornet's nest with that take :blob_sweat: I guess I do have to admit to being a bit radical in some things ...

With all this said -- I wonder if there can be something like a more or less official BL-group here on SH to give a bit more visibility chance to new and upcoming authors for those who might be interested that can double like some sort of a BL-Trending Tab? Obviously not for every 1 chapter of a new book that appears but for those who are clearly writing a lot but cannot break out of the low rankings (for whichever reasons)...

Is this a bad idea?
I mean I already said it when we personally talked about this before but I guess I should just reiterate it here: I'd be all up for that. Though after thinking about it for a bit, I think what we'd actually need to do would be to get the BL readers from NU over to SH :blob_hmm:

Does any of that answer the question, are the BL and GL novels that are not in the Romance genre?

Is that a possibility in the wide wide world of the infinite Imaginarium? What kind of story is it?
Oh, another one is opening that can of worms.
My take: Nope. It's Boys' Love (or Girls') for a reason so it is some type of romance. There are, however, stories out there with homosexual protagonists that don't focus on romance so they could be literally anything just with a gay or lesbian MC. I would never categorize that as BL or GL though.
You'll get a different response from Queenfisher though :blobrofl:

Nani??? Am I on the list for authors with low visibility here??
I actually think this depends on how we want to define 'low visibility' :blob_sweat: I mean I know you because I always see you around here on the forums, sometimes on the main page, and definitely much more often over on Tapas. But we're probably not the ones who can accurately judge this. Personally, I feel like it's often hard to say and might even depend more on a certain story than on the author. And sometimes the stats are also misleading.
Like, I have 6 stories in the Top #50, 3 of which are in the Top #20 even. If somebody told me that about themselves, I'd think they were doing really great. I still wouldn't say my visibility on the main page is actually high though. That is because of those three stories at the top, one barely gets 10 views on the latest chapters, another one (which is actually my main series where we just hit 600 chapters) doesn't even average 5 views on the latest chapters, and only the last one which has been finished for ages (like, finished in January over here) gets up to double digits. And even those views vary greatly, like, some of the chapters of the extras have 30 views, some 90 (and even in that order, like, how the fuck are readers reading nowadays? :blob_no:), so I am not even sure if those are actual views or just people checking whether they like the ending.
The story with the double digits in views is, btw, the only one that has comments on those chapters as well. The others? 0 comments. For one of them (the 10er), the last comment was about 10 chapters ago and before that, there wasn't a single one for 59 chapters. The other story (the 5er) ... I scrolled through and if I didn't miss one, I got the last comment on chapter 221 (to reiterate: I just posted chapter 600 yesterday). So I went almost 400 chapters without comments. I can't even say I'm surprised because if I look at the statistics page with the 'recent readers', then there are only 3 of them that actually read something instead of just bookmarking it at chapter 1. And btw, that story officially has 579 readers and 121.5k views according to the main page.
So, my stats actually look really great when just looking at them from afar but as soon as I look more closely, it gets depressing really fast. I probably don't even have 10 readers on SH. Visibility, my ass. I don't know about you guys but I don't even know how that looks :blob_teary: Sorry, rant over :blob_pout:

Maybe what is better is to have some kind of cheerleading writers' network. In the writing spaces where I've been, people sometimes request "cheerleaders", who either (1) literally just give encouragement to keep writing or (2) read [the start of] works-in-progress and again, give encouragement to keep writing. They aren't betas nor full-on readers, but this initial support is really nice.
Although I do have to say I personally find it really demotivating if people start out reading but then not continue. It's almost even worse than no one reading from the beginning because then I can't hoodwink myself into saying 'ah, well, nobody found it yet, they'll come later'. If people read initially but then stop, I'll have to consider the possibility of just being a shitty author that makes all the readers drop her books like cold potatoes :blob_sweat: (Not hot ones because then they'd have dropped it right when picking it up. I can only assume it's getting boring for them.)

So, and I should probably get off the internet now and work because this is really getting depressing.
 

AliceShiki

Magical Girl of Love and Justice
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
3,530
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183
My point here is that at least for danmei, the seme/uke status of the protagonist is literally one of the first things that Chinese BL readers look for when they consider a story, and it's listed on every single novel.

I think in an ideal world... we would say that BL doesn't require seme/uke dynamics... but I think in practice it's a characteristic feature for a majority of BL novels that are currently coming out of China.

It's beyond the level of just a trope.
You do realize any Chinese author that is writing a story that doesn't fit into this dychotomy could just choose whatever for this, right? Nothing forces them to follow this dynamic and I'm sure many don't.

And I bet you could find threads about this in jjwc forums (if they have one) with people asking for a 4th option to be added for stories that don't fit into these... But I digress.

As for the argument of everyone in the western community thinking BL is forced to follow those tropes... That's not that strange actually.

Imagine if everyone you knew told you that Pineapples go horribly on Pizza... You'd probably expect pineapples to be bad on Pizza.
Little do you know though, none of them actually ate pizzas with pineapples on them.

Maybe a few years later you might find someone that actually ate pizza with pineapples and they might tell you that it is actually good... But then they have to face a gigantic mob of people that tell them that they are wrong, and their voice will probably be drowned out by the much bigger crowd that never ate pizza with pineapples.

Basically, a bunch of people that don't know a thing about how m/m fiction is treated in asian websites heard that there are a bunch of horrible tropes in 100% of those stories, so they start parroting it without actually reading m/m asian fiction. It's their fault for misjudging things before reading them.

Like, sure, maybe they read one or two popular works and were disgusted by it, but that's the same as me reading one Omegaverse Western fiction and declaring all m/m Western romance to be filled with the same tropes people accuse BL to obligatorily have.

I get that jjwc forcing someone to choose either uke/seme for their protagonist means the trope is super popular, but that by no means mean that BL has that by default.

... Besides, at dictionary definition... Isn't Uke/Seme just the Bottom/Top on bed? In that case it is not really a character defining trait at its core, is it?
Though I understand that many other characteristics tend to come associated with those two categories usually, it isn't really a necessity to have them.
 

bafflinghaze

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Messages
112
Points
103
I mean I already said it when we personally talked about this before but I guess I should just reiterate it here: I'd be all up for that. Though after thinking about it for a bit, I think what we'd actually need to do would be to get the BL readers from NU over to SH :blob_hmm:
omg. galaxy brain. It would help if there were more active BL stories (or completed) being posted on SH though to entice readers over to read/or to give recs when readers on NU ask for them.

I mean I know you because I always see you around here on the forums, sometimes on the main page, and definitely much more often over on Tapas. But we're probably not the ones who can accurately judge this. Personally, I feel like it's often hard to say and might even depend more on a certain story than on the author. And sometimes the stats are also misleading.
We know each other??? :blob_aww:

So, my stats actually look really great when just looking at them from afar but as soon as I look more closely, it gets depressing really fast. I probably don't even have 10 readers on SH. Visibility, my ass. I don't know about you guys but I don't even know how that looks :blob_teary: Sorry, rant over :blob_pout:
I also look-see at stats on the most recent chapter of things as a better gauge on how popular it currently is. I feel like @Queenfisher has talked about how we can incentivise readers to give more comments out.

It's also an age-old Thing over on fandom. In fact, there is/was this project called the LLF Comment Project https://longlivefeedback.tumblr.com/llfcommentproject that is to encourage readers to comment more. You put it at the end of your chapter and give some easy suggestions for readers to feedback

1607087393749.png


Although I do have to say I personally find it really demotivating if people start out reading but then not continue. It's almost even worse than no one reading from the beginning because then I can't hoodwink myself into saying 'ah, well, nobody found it yet, they'll come later'. If people read initially but then stop, I'll have to consider the possibility of just being a shitty author that makes all the readers drop her books like cold potatoes :blob_sweat: (Not hot ones because then they'd have dropped it right when picking it up. I can only assume it's getting boring for them.)
Ah, I meant reading unpublished work that is still being written, ugh yeah it's definitely demotivating to see readers drop off... When that happens to me, I...do my best to wrap up a story REAL quick so I can move onto something else... (Another author I talked to, on AO3, writes her +100k stories completely before posting, which avoids the problem of rushing it like I do....but it's hard to completely write something before posting....)


Imagine if everyone you knew told you that Pineapples go horribly on Pizza... You'd probably expect pineapples to be bad on Pizza.
Little do you know though, none of them actually ate pizzas with pineapples on them.
Awww I love pineapple of pizza, but I think it might be partly due to my asian upbringing where I ate like...a super wide range of food :blob_cookie::blob_cookie:


... Besides, at dictionary definition... Isn't Uke/Seme just the Bottom/Top on bed? In that case it is not really a character defining trait at its core, is it?
Though I understand that many other characteristics tend to come associated with those two categories usually, it isn't really a necessity to have them.
Yes. Whether you top or bottom in bed is just a sexual preference, not a character trait. But yeah, you also get a lot of tropes associated with them, and they're tropes because the majority--or what feels like the majority--of stories adhere to them. I always felt that top/bottom tropes were weaker in English-language M/M novels than asian ones, but I've never done a proper statistical analysis.
 

minacia

perpetually sour
Joined
Jun 22, 2020
Messages
531
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And I bet you could find threads about this in jjwc forums (if they have one) with people asking for a 4th option to be added for stories that don't fit into these... But I digress.
There actually is a fourth option, "Unclear" (不明), but I almost never see it. Like easily >98% of fics on jjwxc fit are either uke protagonist (the most popular), seme protagonist, or female protagonist (there's a lot o BG romance on jjwxc). I've clicked on some of the "unclear" novels and they're often like very experimental stuff... kind of like a jellyfish in a relationship with a mermaid that kind of thing.

As for the argument of everyone in the western community thinking BL is forced to follow those tropes... That's not that strange actually.

Imagine if everyone you knew told you that Pineapples go horribly on Pizza... You'd probably expect pineapples to be bad on Pizza.
Little do you know though, none of them actually ate pizzas with pineapples on them.

Maybe a few years later you might find someone that actually ate pizza with pineapples and they might tell you that it is actually good... But then they have to face a gigantic mob of people that tell them that they are wrong, and their voice will probably be drowned out by the much bigger crowd that never ate pizza with pineapples.

Basically, a bunch of people that don't know a thing about how m/m fiction is treated in asian websites heard that there are a bunch of horrible tropes in 100% of those stories, so they start parroting it without actually reading m/m asian fiction. It's their fault for misjudging things before reading them.

Like, sure, maybe they read one or two popular works and were disgusted by it, but that's the same as me reading one Omegaverse Western fiction and declaring all m/m Western romance to be filled with the same tropes people accuse BL to obligatorily have.

I get that jjwc forcing someone to choose either uke/seme for their protagonist means the trope is super popular, but that by no means mean that BL has that by default.
I think this is where we sort of fall into the complicated world of language.

There isn't one central authority deciding the formal definitions of various terms. It evolves based on perceptions of the broader public, and words can change meaning even after they're translated.

Like most people would say that YA fiction is distinctively different from shounen, or that comics are different from manga, or that chick lit is different from shoujo.

If you asked people to describe exactly how YA fiction was different, people would come up with defining characteristics that stand out to them in particular, although you can always argue that each category is broader than the main characterizations that people identify for a genre.

Like if somebody said that they hate birds because they fly, their sentiments are valid. Most people would characterize birds as flying. Although it's absolutely also the case that certainly birds that don't fly, it doesn't necessarily change the dominant characterization in people's head.

Speaking more practically though, in most US bookstores, "anime/manga" is classified separately from "graphic novels". I think people recognized that the media is so stylistically different that it warrants distinguishing the two, rather than merging them or trying to say that they're the same. There are also plenty of people who will read Naruto but won't read Spiderman comics (and vis versa). The readership can be different so it makes sense to put them on different shelves in bookstores.

BL (taken in most of the US to be synonymous with yaoi) has enormous stylistic differences compared to gay fiction.

... Besides, at dictionary definition... Isn't Uke/Seme just the Bottom/Top on bed? In that case it is not really a character defining trait at its core, is it?
Though I understand that many other characteristics tend to come associated with those two categories usually, it isn't really a necessity to have them.
I don't know about the accuracy of the Japanese translation, but when the kanji for uke/seme is adopted to Chinese (攻/受), it literally translates to "attacker" and "receiver". As a side note 受/shou/uke in Chinese has the connotation of "to suffer", which is also super depressing if you analyze it linguistically from a fandom perspective.

Heterosexual couples never use this kind of language to refer to themselves in China, and there are different terms for when a woman tops in bed. The BDSM terms for top and bottom are also different, and yuri fiction in China typically does not try to describe itself with 攻/受.

At least in Chinese, these terms seem mostly exclusive to danmei.

But then again, they are loanswords from Japanese BL, so it makes sense that they aren't really a natural part of Chinese language.

It's sort of like 变态 (the loanword of "hentai" in Chinese made by converting the kanji => Chinese), which literally means "metamorphosis", but is characteristic enough that it probably differs from Chinese porn which is usually tagged with "meat" or "yellow".
 
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yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
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omg. galaxy brain. It would help if there were more active BL stories (or completed) being posted on SH though to entice readers over to read/or to give recs when readers on NU ask for them.
True. I just checked and there are only three pages of completed stuff :blob_pout:

We know each other??? :blob_aww:
At least I thought we did :blob_sweat: At the very least, I do recognize you as 'I have seen this person around' and can even pinpoint places. That's already pretty good for me :blobrofl:

It's also an age-old Thing over on fandom. In fact, there is/was this project called the LLF Comment Project https://longlivefeedback.tumblr.com/llfcommentproject that is to encourage readers to comment more.
Uh! That actually looks pretty interesting! Also reminds me that maybe I should just ask for comments more often ... I did once on the last chapter of a slightly shorter project and some people actually did follow through so maybe that'd help ...

Ah, I meant reading unpublished work that is still being written, ugh yeah it's definitely demotivating to see readers drop off... When that happens to me, I...do my best to wrap up a story REAL quick so I can move onto something else... (Another author I talked to, on AO3, writes her +100k stories completely before posting, which avoids the problem of rushing it like I do....but it's hard to completely write something before posting....)
Oh gosh, that makes so much more sense now! :blob_sweat: Personally, I don't worry about it too much since I'm writing several projects at once anyway so it's likely I'll get some kind of feedback for something somewhere at least. And otherwise, I'll just turn into a depressed blob but still write :blob_upset: But yeah, I guess it could help to get some kinda feedback in the early writing stages before actually posting
 

AliceShiki

Magical Girl of Love and Justice
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Dec 23, 2018
Messages
3,530
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183
Awww I love pineapple of pizza, but I think it might be partly due to my asian upbringing where I ate like...a super wide range of food :blob_cookie::blob_cookie:
I never ate it myself, but I think it might be tasty in the right type of pizza~
There actually is a fourth option, "Unclear" (不明), but I almost never see it. Like easily >98% of fics on jjwxc fit are either uke protagonist (the most popular), seme protagonist, or female protagonist (there's a lot o BG romance on jjwxc). I've clicked on some of the "unclear" novels and they're often like very experimental stuff... kind of like a jellyfish in a relationship with a mermaid that kind of thing.
Well, at least the option is there! >.<
I think this is where we sort of fall into the complicated world of language.

There isn't one central authority deciding the formal definitions of various terms. It evolves based on perceptions of the broader public, and words can change meaning even after they're translated.

Like most people would say that YA fiction is distinctively different from shounen, or that comics are different from manga, or that chick lit is different from shoujo.

If you asked people to describe exactly how YA fiction was different, people would come up with defining characteristics that stand out to them in particular, although you can always argue that each category is broader than the main characterizations that people identify for a genre.

Like if somebody said that they hate birds because they fly, their sentiments are valid. Most people would characterize birds as flying. Although it's absolutely also the case that certainly birds that don't fly, it doesn't necessarily change the dominant characterization in people's head.

Speaking more practically though, in most US bookstores, "anime/manga" is classified separately from "graphic novels". I think people recognized that the media is so stylistically different that it warrants distinguishing the two, rather than merging them or trying to say that they're the same. There are also plenty of people who will read Naruto but won't read Spiderman comics (and vis versa). The readership can be different so it makes sense to put them on different shelves in bookstores.

BL (taken in most of the US to be synonymous with yaoi) has enormous stylistic differences compared to gay fiction.
Mmmmmmmm, this much makes sense.

How to explain it... I do agree that BL is usually associated with yaoi, danmei and stuff, as in... The Eastern side of m/m fiction.

I just don't think that necessarily means that the uke/seme dynamic is forced into it. I mean... Yeah, it's very very popular, and you certainly read a lot more BL than me, so I'm pretty sure you know better than me... But among the handful that I read, they usually didn't have this dynamic... Precisely because this dynamic kinda turns me off, so I avoid most stuff that has it, which are most translated works at the bare minimum.

I get that there are different tropes in the Western and Eastern fiction in pretty much any genre you look at, and this includes BL... It's just uhn... It's the same thing at its core in the end?

I understand bookstores separating them since they have pretty different styles and stuff, but uhn... In scribbly pretty much everyone is a western author, no? Or well, at least not someone living in Japan/China/Korea, which is where those tropes mainly come from... So everyone is writing from the point of view of western readers... At that point I think the distinction ends up becoming basically irrelevant?

I don't think there is any need to create two+ genres for m/m (or f/f) fiction. One is more than enough... Maybe renaming it would be good (I don't even know why Tony went with BL and GL instead of Gay and Lesbian fiction/romance tbh), but creating new genres seems kinda dumb to me... And exactly because I think creating new genres would be kinda dumb, trying to put any definition to it over than most generic definition possible seems counterproductive IMO.
I don't know about the accuracy of the Japanese translation, but when the kanji for uke/seme is adopted to Chinese (攻/受), it literally translates to "attacker" and "receiver". As a side note 受/shou/uke in Chinese has the connotation of "to suffer", which is also super depressing if you analyze it linguistically from a fandom perspective.

Heterosexual couples never use this kind of language to refer to themselves in China, and there are different terms for when a woman tops in bed. The BDSM terms for top and bottom are also different, and yuri fiction in China typically does not try to describe itself with 攻/受.

At least in Chinese, these terms seem mostly exclusive to danmei.

But then again, they are loanswords from Japanese BL, so it makes sense that they aren't really a natural part of Chinese language.

It's sort of like 变态 (the loanword of "hentai" in Chinese made by converting the kanji => Chinese), which literally means "metamorphosis", but is characteristic enough that it probably differs from Chinese porn which is usually tagged with "meat" or "yellow".
Well, AFAIK in Japanese it's also a BL-exclusive term! >.<
 

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
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I don't think there is any need to create two+ genres for m/m (or f/f) fiction. One is more than enough... Maybe renaming it would be good (I don't even know why Tony went with BL and GL instead of Gay and Lesbian fiction/romance tbh), but creating new genres seems kinda dumb to me... And exactly because I think creating new genres would be kinda dumb, trying to put any definition to it over than most generic definition possible seems counterproductive IMO.
To jump back in on this part of the discussion: I agree that renaming the two genres would likely take care of the problems people have addressed so far. Also, one thing I thought about: Both authors and readers that come and those who don't come from NU or the more eastern side would definitely be able to understand either gay or m/m and lesbian or f/f romance respectively, while authors and readers from outside might not necessarily be familiar with BL. So I think a more general term would be nice to have.
 

bafflinghaze

Well-known member
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I don't know about the accuracy of the Japanese translation, but when the kanji for uke/seme is adopted to Chinese (攻/受), it literally translates to "attacker" and "receiver". As a side note 受/shou/uke in Chinese has the connotation of "to suffer", which is also super depressing if you analyze it linguistically from a fandom perspective.
I never knew that, wow... 😔
At least I thought we did :blob_sweat: At the very least, I do recognize you as 'I have seen this person around' and can even pinpoint places. That's already pretty good for me :blobrofl:
:blob_reach::blob_reach::blob_reach: that's true :blob_melt:

Uh! That actually looks pretty interesting! Also reminds me that maybe I should just ask for comments more often ... I did once on the last chapter of a slightly shorter project and some people actually did follow through so maybe that'd help ...
Yes! I think reminding readers to like and comment actually works. Sometimes I forget to like a chapter when it's toooo engrossing and I just want to click to the next chapter asap. I mean, there must be a reason why YouTubers do it, right? I've also seen people do "if X people comment by XX date, then I'll release an extra chapter" as an incentive.

I agree that renaming the two genres would likely take care of the problems people have addressed so far. Also, one thing I thought about: Both authors and readers that come and those who don't come from NU or the more eastern side would definitely be able to understand either gay or m/m and lesbian or f/f romance respectively, while authors and readers from outside might not necessarily be familiar with BL. So I think a more general term would be nice to have.
Has anyone made a feature request for this?
 

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
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622
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Yes! I think reminding readers to like and comment actually works. Sometimes I forget to like a chapter when it's toooo engrossing and I just want to click to the next chapter asap. I mean, there must be a reason why YouTubers do it, right? I've also seen people do "if X people comment by XX date, then I'll release an extra chapter" as an incentive.
I guess I'll give this a try then. Maybe I'll accidentally find out I actually have readers :blobrofl:

Has anyone made a feature request for this?
Uh ... I don't think so. I think we've been busy discussing what we actually think about this issue for the past days/weeks.
 

AliceShiki

Magical Girl of Love and Justice
Joined
Dec 23, 2018
Messages
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To jump back in on this part of the discussion: I agree that renaming the two genres would likely take care of the problems people have addressed so far. Also, one thing I thought about: Both authors and readers that come and those who don't come from NU or the more eastern side would definitely be able to understand either gay or m/m and lesbian or f/f romance respectively, while authors and readers from outside might not necessarily be familiar with BL. So I think a more general term would be nice to have.
I personally think m/m and f/f might be as confusing to new authors/readers as BL and GL tbh... I mean, until I started searching around the internet specifically for LGBT+ content, I never saw this terminology myself.

But I agree with you that the current name isn't ideal~
 

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
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I personally think m/m and f/f might be as confusing to new authors/readers as BL and GL tbh... I mean, until I started searching around the internet specifically for LGBT+ content, I never saw this terminology myself.

But I agree with you that the current name isn't ideal~
Personally, I would also prefer gay and lesbian romance but ... I guess a poll would be nice? :blob_blank:
 

Moonpearl

The Yuri Empress
Joined
Dec 25, 2018
Messages
764
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funnily enough, I've already watched this, it was quite surreal(if that's the right word), I would have enjoyed this alot more of they had used a different art style than this, but it was made pre-2000s.
I prefer the old anime style, to be honest. The cuter, moe-blob styles freak me out sometimes. I want my old shoujo "eyes as large as your face" back...

But I think Utena wouldn't have worked as well with a modern anime style. One of the features of pre-2000 shoujo was that it tended to make young characters look much older than they really were, and Utena captalises on that in order to lull the viewers into a false sense of security.

I feel like it's intentionally used to make you forget how young and vulnerable the characters are until it's too late. Especially for Touga and Saionji, who are presented as our false villains at the start.
:blob_teary: :blob_teary::blob_teary:

I am afraid of the actual answer........

(It's not like I have to read ALL of the books from start to finish. :blob_cookie:I just need to read 5-10 chappies from each to fit my schedule, lol. But while reading is super easy to me -- and I can probably do it in just 2-3 hours -- commenting would be another deal entirely O_O. I do like to comment on everything I read, and I want to support as many creators here on SH as possible. I can't do it monetarily, so I try to do it with comments, likes, reads, etc. But the problem is that I just don't know how to fit it all at once and I am a bit afraid to let people down if I don't comment too often. And there are a LOT of books I want to read and comment on!

As an author here on SH, I know better than most what it's like to not receive any responses for your writing :blob_frown:. Some authors might feel like I abandoned them and stopped reading when that is not true! :blob_no: I just don't like commenting in general (introvert :blob_hide:), lol, so I am embarrassed to show up in their books without a comment (or 15 ^^). It all somehow snowballs me into anxiety sometimes and I end up getting distracted after a while >_<).


Sorry for off-topic, just getting worried a bit.

BL community for me is very important and so is SH overall. I met so many cool people here ^^. I want to give back to the community so I try doing my best, but I am still worried that it's not enough...

That makes me think of another thing related to BL in here. The lack of support for beginner authors.

Once, @yansusustories and @tigerine actually talked about this issue somewhere on the forum. About how it's a feedback loop where both sides lose something in the end.

That:

  • 1. most new authors are likely to wither down and stop writing on SH due to not meeting any reaction from the readership or from the fellow authors.

  • 2. but the readers are unlikely to read someone who has not yet proved themselves to be reliable and finish their book first. Thus they do not comment or react to new books.

  • 3. without comments/readers, the authors feel unwelcome and do not continue writing here... :blob_dizzy:

Just in the last months, there were several BL writers who seemingly left SH because of the lack of response to their stories :blob_teary:. I know we cannot force it and make people read/comment -- but the community overall can substitute it a little bit, I think. Being part of a community is also a support, albeit of a different sort and some can find their place in here through that and slowly build their presence on the main site in the process.

I also remember talking with @yansusustories and @minacia in different threads about how the SH Trending Tab cannot actually help some genres like BL at all. We simply do not benefit from it as much as other genres do

With all this said -- I wonder if there can be something like a more or less official BL-group here on SH to give a bit more visibility chance to new and upcoming authors for those who might be interested that can double like some sort of a BL-Trending Tab? Obviously not for every 1 chapter of a new book that appears but for those who are clearly writing a lot but cannot break out of the low rankings (for whichever reasons)...

Is this a bad idea?

(By the "BL-group" I mean like a topic to discuss ALL BL-related issues and new releases and ads for books like the one on NUF).

For example, for novels of the authors like these --

@bafflinghaze :blob_cookie:

Not all of them really need help (some of them are doing fine compared to most, lol) -- but some are somehow VERY unnoticed and perhaps they shouldn't be. That's not for me to decide though (I haven't read half of them) -- but I still felt that with how unliked BL is on this site (due to the Survey), promoting a little bit more novels in our genre and growing our active member group might be a good idea ^^.

So do you think a whole thread/topic devoted to just promotion of BL works and issues would not be too... weird to do??? :blob_sweat:
NUF had the Danmei Room and still has the Yuri Garden (as well as the GB room, the Reverse Harem room, etc.).

And SHF already has the Yuri Writing Help Room, although it's severely under-utilised.

I'd say there's plenty of precedence to support a BL hub here on SHF.
I mean I already said it when we personally talked about this before but I guess I should just reiterate it here: I'd be all up for that. Though after thinking about it for a bit, I think what we'd actually need to do would be to get the BL readers from NU over to SH :blob_hmm:
You can do that by dropping into the Recommendations section and recommending stuff from here (when it's applicable, of course).

I've been doing it on-and-off for my favourites.
 

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
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You can do that by dropping into the Recommendations section and recommending stuff from here (when it's applicable, of course).

I've been doing it on-and-off for my favourites.
That's a good idea! I have to admit that I don't frequent NUF nearly as frequently as SHF so I only see the threads over there once in a while when I accidentally stumble over them on the main page. But I guess I'll have to keep my eyes open from now on :blob_melt:
 
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