Reader Fame

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Points
108
I am learning more and more about the site, but so far I noticed that there is the Famous/Rising/Known Author labels, but none for Readers? If there are, and I'm just stupid -- sorry!

I'm not sure if this is weird to ask about, but would it be possible to allow some recognition for Readers? Based on number of comments on different books, for example? Or liked comments from the Authors, or the number of Followed Authors in the Reader's profile? The most simple solution would be the amount of books the Reader is following and the amount of chapters read in them, and maybe the amount of reviews written.

Above all, if the Reader has nothing published at all, but is just exclusively on this site as a Reader -- can there not be made a special label like "Star Reader" or something like that? For members who are both Readers and Authors, there can be both labels displayed? Or depending on their personal choice?

I feel like Author recognition is a great thing, but in web novel format, the Readers are just as important and so would warrant recognition as well. Plus, good Readers are indispensable to all Authors, so it's a symbiosis ^^.

(There are plenty of famous movie and book critics in the outside world. Most writers would die to be read or reviewed by a specific critic, so Reader Recognition seems a pretty natural thing to tap into).

Edit.
The actual suggestion to implement which I posted much later in the thread:

1. The easiest way to implement it, in my head, would be to link it to likes to comments in the stories. Like, you get 500 likes on any comments on any stories, and you receive an upgrade to your Reader label. The next label change would be at 1000 likes, and et cetera.


2. More than that -- Reader Fame is a wrong way to call it, especially if what it does is essentially motivate the writers, or both the writers and readers to interact. I would call it Reader Identity, or Recognition instead, with ranks bearing titles like:

-- Engaged Reader (say, 250 likes)

-- Devoted Reader (~500 likes)

-- Motivational or Encouraging Reader (750 likes)

(yes, they're silly, but you get the idea)

-- And the ultimate one -- The Inspiring/Inspirational Reader (1000 likes).
 
Last edited:

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Points
108
Hmm, I was thinking about it a bit more and realized that Reader Fame could be most useful for writers. Like when you say that writer labels helped motivate them to write more, Reader Recognition would motivate Readers to comment more ==> motivate writers to write more. So in the end, this is a system that would potentially benefit the writers most.

1. The easiest way to implement it, in my head, would be to link it to likes to comments in the stories. Like, you get 500 likes on any comments on any stories, and you receive an upgrade to your Reader label. The next label change would be at 1000 likes, and et cetera.


2. More than that -- Reader Fame is a wrong way to call it, especially if what it does is essentially motivate the writers, or both the writers and readers to interact. I would call it Reader Identity, or Recognition instead, with ranks bearing titles like:

-- Engaged Reader (say, 250 likes)

-- Devoted Reader (~500 likes)

-- Motivational or Encouraging Reader (750 likes)

(yes, they're silly, but you get the idea)

-- And the ultimate one -- The Inspiring/Inspirational Reader (1000 likes).


3. What you say about spamming for labels seems a legit concern at first, but the more I thought about it, the more I started feeling that it's a fallacy. This concern comes from the assumption that there are honest reactions of readers to the books and that there are the "fake" ones, and that we should all protect ourselves from the latter ones and promote more "honest ones" whether they are positive, negative, or just indifferent. Honesty in society at large is a non-entity. Nothing in art can be measured in the audience's "honest" response. Like the concept of merit -- in art, it is more of a myth than reality because so much of art is guided by advertisement and chance rather than genuine interest. Honesty in art production or consumption doesn't exist and is pretty harmful when hierarchies (of taste or of value) are built on top of it.

But really, when I look at my own experience reading or writing -- when people are indifferent toward something or don't like something, they usually don't comment. Indifference obviously doesn't necessitate engaging with the story or its author, while dislike (or even hatred) would rather constitute a comment that's at best nitpicky and at worst just bullying, neither of which are going to be constructive. I.e. if the Reader dislikes something about a book and wants to leave a constructive criticism of it -- the best way to make the author pay attention is by NOT being aggressive or bullying about it, thus essentially rendering the comment more positive than negative.

So because of all of that, the majority of comments are naturally selected to be positive -- whether positive in message or positive in their influence on the author through constructive, polite, and respectful criticism that has high chances of being accepted by the author. Negative or neutral ones get ignored as they should be. Again, why leave a strictly negative or neutral comment anywhere other than to ruin someone's mood?


4. Plus, the author's like is only one like. The rest are given by the other Readers. So if a comment is a bit on the negative side but helpful or meaningful to many others, then other Readers will help get the person who left such a comment get recognition for its helpfulness or meaningfulness regardless of whether the author agreed or liked it themselves.

In short -- commentary natural selection already works in such a way that there is no real need to worry about Fake-spamming or like-mining.


5. Again, what would be the downside of this even if some Readers spam the "Thank you for the chapter!" or "Ah, I like this book so much!"? The majority of such comments wouldn't get more likes than one -- from the Author. Only ones that are deeper or more entertaining than that will garner likes from other Readers.

But for the author, a little bit more engaged Readers who actually read their books but are currently only lurking, will be a great motivation to their writing! Which as someone said above is the main gist of this site: to motivate writers to write more and create more content. Well, I'm just saying that having an audience who gets some boons for being engaged and devoted -- might help do exactly that: motivate and promote more content creation.


So what do you think? I do understand that this is probably difficult to implement, but I am really just interested in how comments affect writers and how a lot of readers are NOT motivated to engage or participate as of now. And maybe this is a way to help them do that?

P.S.: also some readers are just amazing and need recognition for their saintly work!
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
Seriously people, SH is unlikely to implement this. Not only is it more work for them, it is also contrary to their priority, of being author-centric. Anything too reader-centric is unlikely to receive much attention. Give suggestions to let make them get more authors. They would snatch that up.
 

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Points
108
Seriously people, SH is unlikely to implement this. Not only is it more work for them, it is also contrary to their priority, of being author-centric. Anything too reader-centric is unlikely to receive much attention. Give suggestions to let make them get more authors. They would snatch that up.

Read the above. This system will benefit the motivation of authors most.

Reader motivated to engage with book ==> Author is motivated to write more.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
Read the above. This system will benefit the motivation of authors most.

Reader motivated to engage with book ==> Author is motivated to write more.
I know that is what they say, but that isn't exactly true. It is supposed to motivate authors but in a roundabout way. It is supposed to motivate authors by motivating readers. Get it? While its final outcome is to hopefully, hopefully, motivate authors, at its core it is actually about motivating the readers to essentially give more reviews, which is something SH actually seems to not want.

This is kinda like corporate talks saying that its about helping people when it is actually about then getting more money. This is phrased as "motivating authors" because that is what SH wants though it is actually more about "motivating readers."

Another thing against this is that, readers tend to actually like negative reviews more than positive ones because they are more entertaining. There would be more negative reviews that are well liked by other readers than the positive ones.

Though, I think it is fine, but the point is, this isn't what SH wants. No matter how good an idea it is, if it doesn't align with what they want, it is not going to interest them.
 

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Points
108
I know that is what they say, but that isn't exactly true. It is supposed to motivate authors but in a roundabout way. It is supposed to motivate authors by motivating readers. Get it? While its final outcome is to hopefully, hopefully, motivate authors, at its core it is actually about motivating the readers to essentially give more reviews, which is something SH actually seems to not want.

This is kinda like corporate talks saying that its about helping people when it is actually about then getting more money. This is phrased as "motivating authors" because that is what SH wants though it is actually more about "motivating readers."

Another thing against this is that, readers tend to actually like negative reviews more than positive ones because they are more entertaining. There would be more negative reviews that are well liked by other readers than the positive ones.

Though, I think it is fine, but the point is, this isn't what SH wants. No matter how good an idea it is, if it doesn't align with what they want, it is not going to interest them.
Most of what you say I already addressed in the post directly above yours. The point about motivating the readers to give more reviews is moot since it's literally not what I'm saying. Engaged audience =/= reviews.

Also about that hopefully -- not changing anything = 0 added engagement of readers and authors alike. Motivating readers = a non-zero chance of added engagement of readers and authors alike.

Though you are right about the deciding factor being what SH wants, and nothing else. The issue here is discussion and interest in how reader/author engagement works, not just begging for a feature =).
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
Most of what you say I already addressed in the post directly above yours. The point about motivating the readers to give more reviews is moot since it's literally not what I'm saying. Engaged audience =/= reviews.

Also about that hopefully -- not changing anything = 0 added engagement of readers and authors alike. Motivating readers = a non-zero chance of added engagement of readers and authors alike.

Though you are right about the deciding factor being what SH wants, and nothing else. The issue here is discussion and interest in how reader/author engagement works, not just begging for a feature =).
I'm just using reviews because it is one of the primary means of reader engagement. Like, it is literary one of the things readers would look at before reading a story.

Comments are more reader-author engagement that reader-reader engagement. This is mostly because when readers engage most with other readers in comments when they have strong opinions and ideas, especially opposing ones. This is something that tends run foul so not encouraged.

Now if you overlay a system like this, what do you think would happen? The readers would like those that are more entertaining! Do you a think a review that provides objective critical analysis is going to be more liked than a humorous review that pokes fun at the story's faults? Do you think a comment that objectively describe what they think about the chapter is going to get more likes than a comment that have strong emotional wording (either good or bad)?

The thing is these "constructive" stuff aren't entertaining and they are not supposed to be. That is not what readers (especially when it come to the internet) find fun to read about in reviews or comments or anywhere for that matter. Constructive (polite, and respectful) criticism is not going to be interesting to many people (even for the authors).

I don't think this is going to work the way you think it is going to work.
 
Last edited:

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Points
108
I'm just using reviews because it is one of the primary means of reader engagement. Like, it is literary one of the things readers would look at before reading a story.

Comments are more reader-author engagement that reader-reader engagement. This is mostly because when readers engage most with other readers in comments when they have strong opinions and ideas, especially opposing ones. This is something that tends run foul so not encouraged.

Now if you overlay a system like this, what do you think would happen? The readers would like those that are more entertaining! Do you a think a review that provides objective critical analysis is going to be more liked than a humorous review that pokes fun at the story's faults? Do you think a comment that objectively describe what they think about the chapter is going to get more likes than a comment that have strong emotional wording (either good or bad)?

The thing is these "constructive" stuff aren't entertaining and they are not supposed to be. That is not what readers (especially when it come to the internet) find fun to read about in reviews or comments or anywhere for that matter. Constructive (polite, and respectful) criticism is not going to be interesting to many people (even for the authors).

I don't think this is going to work the way you think it is going to work.

Comments like this are self-regulating due to the general readership within the story (those who frequent a story enough to comment or engage with other's comments will lean toward liking those that are on the nicer side rather than those that destroy the book they like). Though yes, comments that are more entertaining will get more likes. So? Those that are constructive and respectful also will get some of theirs. This can only be a problem if you're hunting for more likes and are governed by them. I don't think most people are like that...

The point is -- either the entertaining or the useful comments get the book more traction and the author -- more interaction with their content (as long as they are not negative trolling). But if you are worried about trolls and barrage of negativity, what does it have to do with rewarding engaged readers? That, again, is the issue NOT with promoting engagement, but with discouraging trolls.

And discouraging trolls is an overall problem on every site in existence, and even in real life. So what? Not reward those who do something nice and thought-out for the fear of stirring the trolls? Why do we have SH at all? It attracts trolls. Why give authors such attractive labels as Famous or Rising? That attracts jealousy and people to 1-star bomb them, i.e. trolls? Why publish stories? Chances are -- it will attract trolls...

You see, this is a slippery slope in which no action in regards to everything is the only possible action. It might be worth holding on to, but not in every situation. All I'm asking here -- is this an example of such a situation?

#

Going back to my statement about comments that are entertaining getting more likes. Duh. It's already like this. The entire world works like this. And this exact system is already in place in SH. So? I'm just proposing giving a Label to a part of what it represents: reader engagement. Because sometimes a label is just very damn useful :blob_wink:.

Again -- all of what I'm saying is already in place in SH. As an allegory: say there are daisies in the field. One day Linnaeus looked at them and thought -- why don't I group them into a category? And then I'll give this category a... name! A label! Wouldn't it be useful? (Hint: it was in fact very useful!).

Kinda like that. Essentially I'm not proposing something groundbreaking, but just linking the already existing way the things work for readers in SH to an arbitrary title that acknowledges a pattern to this behavior. That's it.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
Comments like this are self-regulating due to the general readership within the story (those who frequent a story enough to comment or engage with other's comments will lean toward liking those that are on the nicer side rather than those that destroy the book they like). Though yes, comments that are more entertaining will get more likes. So? Those that are constructive and respectful also will get some of theirs. This can only be a problem if you're hunting for more likes and are governed by them. I don't think most people are like that...
Your are so positive!:biggrin_s:

And I'm on the more negative:whistle:. I'm just a pessimistic person with these kind of things. You don't think people are like that but I think otherwise.

While yes people would like those that are nice to the books they like, but what about those who don't like the book? They can vote, can't they?

Just think of it. Writers are already complaining loudly with receiving 1 star ratings (thought it is a small fraction compared to the 5 star ratings they received). This is just more stuff for writers to complain about (when negative comments/reviews receive likes). Who do you think would have to deal with these complaints?
The point is -- either the entertaining or the useful comments get the book more traction and the author -- more interaction with their content (as long as they are not negative trolling). But if you are worried about trolls and barrage of negativity, what does it have to do with rewarding engaged readers? That, again, is the issue NOT with promoting engagement, but with discouraging trolls.

And discouraging trolls is an overall problem on every site in existence, and even in real life. So what? Not reward those who do something nice and thought-out for the fear of stirring the trolls? Why do we have SH at all? It attracts trolls. Why give authors such attractive labels as Famous or Rising? That attracts jealousy and people to 1-star bomb them, i.e. trolls? Why publish stories? Chances are -- it will attract trolls...

You see, this is a slippery slope in which no action in regards to everything is the only possible action. It might be worth holding on to, but not in every situation. All I'm asking here -- is this an example of such a situation?
The thing is, the one who would shoulder the work is SH. Sure discouraging trolls and whatever is nice and all, but it would be they who would be doing the work. Not me. Not you. Them.

Do you think they are willing to have more work just to implement this thing? You already mentioned, they have already big problems with trolls, now there is going to be more problem work for them just to implement something they might not want at all.
Going back to my statement about comments that are entertaining getting more likes. Duh. It's already like this. The entire world works like this. And this exact system is already in place in SH. So? I'm just proposing giving a Label to a part of what it represents: reader engagement. Because sometimes a label is just very damn useful :blob_wink:.

Again -- all of what I'm saying is already in place in SH. As an allegory: say there are daisies in the field. One day Linnaeus looked at them and thought -- why don't I group them into a category? And then I'll give this category a... name! A label! Wouldn't it be useful? (Hint: it was in fact very useful!).

Kinda like that. Essentially I'm not proposing something groundbreaking, but just linking the already existing way the things work for readers in SH to an arbitrary title that acknowledges a pattern to this behavior. That's it.
It sure is useful! But to whom? Take your allegory. Is this grouping (binomial nomenclature) going to be useful to regular people? A name like Daises is enough and more useful for them than the name Bellis Perennis. Telling someone to buy Cucumis sativus, is going to end up with them being confused. Tell them to buy Cucumber instead.

So, you say you are essentially giving labels? Not exactly. It is more than that. You are giving recognition. A label is just utilitarian; this more like giving medals or trophies. There is a difference about a label that says "bread" than a medal that says "best."

If you want to encourage reader engagement, then yes, this is be good, great in fact. But if you think this would only encourage "good" reader engagement, then . . . no. While it would encourage some good interaction, it is also very likely to encourage a lot of bad ones (even more so).

And again, is more reader engagement something SH wants? I don't think so. They are more than satisfied with the reader engagement at present.
 

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
Points
133
To be honest, I don't understand this whole thing. Like, reviews are checked before they go online on SH, right? So if somebody wrote those just for recognition and was trolling, the reviews would likely not even get published.
As for the comments ... I might be a strange flower but why are people so afraid of negative ones? Not everybody will like every book. Naturally, not everybody will like every chapter. The negative comments (and reviews) are just as valuable as the positive ones even if they are phrased like shit (and if the actual content is shit like hate speech or something, there's a report button, no?).
Authors need to learn to deal with these things and they won't be able to do that if we actively discourage such comments/reviews. At the end of the day, getting a few negative comments among several positive ones (which, let's be honest, will be what happens the further you get through a novel because how many trolls have the patience to read through several hundred chapters of a story they actively dislike?) is still better than screaming into the void as we currently do on SH.

TL;DR: I don't know why you all sound so worried about trolls. I really like this idea. Anything that encourages reader engagement is very welcome because right now, the main site feels just as dead as the forums to me. Those who aren't big-time authors likely get not even one comment per week. That's no fun.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
To be honest, I don't understand this whole thing. Like, reviews are checked before they go online on SH, right? So if somebody wrote those just for recognition and was trolling, the reviews would likely not even get published.
As for the comments ... I might be a strange flower but why are people so afraid of negative ones? Not everybody will like every book. Naturally, not everybody will like every chapter. The negative comments (and reviews) are just as valuable as the positive ones even if they are phrased like shit (and if the actual content is shit like hate speech or something, there's a report button, no?).
Authors need to learn to deal with these things and they won't be able to do that if we actively discourage such comments/reviews. At the end of the day, getting a few negative comments among several positive ones (which, let's be honest, will be what happens the further you get through a novel because how many trolls have the patience to read through several hundred chapters of a story they actively dislike?) is still better than screaming into the void as we currently do on SH.

TL;DR: I don't know why you all sound so worried about trolls. I really like this idea. Anything that encourages reader engagement is very welcome because right now, the main site feels just as dead as the forums to me. Those who aren't big-time authors likely get not even one comment per week. That's no fun.
SH kinda care more about the writers than the readers. So, SH kinda prioritize features that caters more towards writers than readers. I think they also subscribe to quality over quantity when it comes to reader interaction.

A lot of writers here are also kinda delicate. I don't really think they are seeking to improve. They just want recognition.

And it is not exactly about trolls but the work of moderating the site. More reader activity means more work moderating/checking them. SH might just not want to increase reader activity because they do not have the resources to manage them.
 
Last edited:

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
Points
133
So, you've said this:
SH kinda care more about the writers than the readers.
several times by now. May I ask what makes you believe that? Like, did Tony actually ever say that somewhere? :blob_blank: Personally, I haven't really gotten this impression. It's just that the site is based on NU and readers were pretty happy with the way that one is organized so there wasn't much need to change anything while the part for writers needed a lot more fine-tuning so that was what was worked on more. Or at least that's my take on that.

More reader activity means more work moderating/checking them. SH might just not want to increase reader activity because they do not have the resources to manage them.
While I do think you're right with this, I think that this is - at most - a temporary problem and would be solved when SH gets older and there's moderators around. Which will be inevitable in the long run if the site is supposed to work, I think. Because: no readers = no reason for authors to post and, personally, I'd even say: no reader engagement longterm = no reason for authors to post longterm.
Like, this might be a personal thing but I'm mostly just here because I see that Tony is always open to suggestions and I like the chat function. Publishing stories or reading is actually what I spent the least time with on SH :blob_frown:
 

AkalE

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 6, 2020
Messages
202
Points
58
OP makes sense imho.
At the end of the day SH is a webfic platform.... it exists because there are writers that write content that readers are interested in reading.

This just calls for implementing a method that would likely generate more reader participation and thereby improving the site, the writer and the community.
From what I understand a large chunk of webfic authors come from dedicated reader-base of similar genre of fiction. Encouraging readers to read and comment would only further bolster more writing. Besides, I've yet to meet a soul that doesn't enjoy validation....

Yes, there will very likely be trolls and spam commenting to some degree. But "thanks for the chapter" already exists, and more importantly these issues are already being handled by Tony whenever there are spam 0.5 reviews or other such issues.

More importantly, I love seeing the notification with a ton of numbers on it. It would be motivation enough for me to write. Do you know what will make me stop writing? No readers.
 

Tony

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Messages
704
Points
133
Like, did Tony actually ever say that somewhere? :blob_blank: Personally, I haven't really gotten this impression.

No, I never said that and it's not true at all. I have no clue why @Ral is making that assumption and keeps repeating and spreading it like it's facts.

I'm trying my best to try to cater to BOTH authors and readers. How can the site survive without both of them?
 

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
Points
133
In regards to this:
But "thanks for the chapter" already exists, and more importantly these issues are already being handled by Tony whenever there are spam 0.5 reviews or other such issues.
To be honest, I don't get the hate for those either. Sure, we'd all probably love discussions of the actual events or something along those lines more but, frankly, it's still nice to at least have somebody thank the author for a chapter. I mean, they're there, they're reading, and they take the time to thank us for taking the time to write chapters for them. Actually, I think it's really nice?

And thanks @Tony for clarifying that. I was a bit weirded out by the assumption. I think it was implicit before but: I think you're doing a really great job! I do like the site and hope it grows even more in the future. :blob_melt:
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
So, you've said this:

several times by now. May I ask what makes you believe that? Like, did Tony actually ever say that somewhere? :blob_blank: Personally, I haven't really gotten this impression. It's just that the site is based on NU and readers were pretty happy with the way that one is organized so there wasn't much need to change anything while the part for writers needed a lot more fine-tuning so that was what was worked on more. Or at least that's my take on that.
No. But, it is more of where the priorities go. They have limited resources. Somethings just gets left behind. A natural thing to happen when resources are limited.

And you actually do get it. They focused on the writers more and doesn't improve much of anything for the readers. Their efforts are on the writers. Isn't that them caring more about the writers? It just what it is.
While I do think you're right with this, I think that this is - at most - a temporary problem and would be solved when SH gets older and there's moderators around. Which will be inevitable in the long run if the site is supposed to work, I think. Because: no readers = no reason for authors to post and, personally, I'd even say: no reader engagement longterm = no reason for authors to post longterm.
Like, this might be a personal thing but I'm mostly just here because I see that Tony is always open to suggestions and I like the chat function. Publishing stories or reading is actually what I spent the least time with on SH :blob_frown:
The other way works too. Without authors writing stories, readers have nothing to read. So no writers = no reason for readers to come and read and, no authors writing longtern - no reason for readers to stay long term. This is a two way street.

The best approach would be to put attention on both. Don't leave either side stagnating. However, it just happens, that SH just don't. They are happy with how the reader side is going on and put their efforts on the writers side. You even realized this by yourself. It is not because they don't care about the readers, they just think there is nothing to improve on that side or something.

It just how it comes to be. Well, there is Tony explaining his side, but intentions are one thing, results are another. An intention to help doesn't mean you are actually helping. Not that they aren't doing anything. They do great with moderating and they provide basic features for the readers, but, we all know that readers need more than just moderating and the basics to be engaged.
 
Last edited:

yansusustories

Matchmaker of Handsome Men
Joined
Mar 13, 2019
Messages
622
Points
133
And you actually do get it. They focused on the writers more and doesn't improve anything for the readers. Their efforts are on the writers. Isn't that them caring more about the writers? It just what it is.
No, no, I didn't get that impression at all. I simply see authors make many, many more suggestions than readers so, naturally, features that are benefitting authors will get implemented more often. And if I remember correctly, then there were some small suggestions for a better reading experience like going to the next/previous chapter with the arrow keys and stuff like that which ... was promptly worked on? So if there are reader-centered suggestions, they're taken very seriously as well.
So if anything, then the readers should get on here and suggest stuff they want. If they do, it'll get implemented. As easy as that.

This is a two way street.
Precisely. I do agree with that.

Don't leave either side stagnating. However, it just happens, that they don't. They are happy with how the reader side is going on and put their efforts on the writers side. It is not because they don't care about the readers, they just think there is nothing to improve on their side or something.
I still don't agree with this though. Honestly, if you're salty about 'nothing being done for readers': Go ahead and make suggestions. What do you think the site needs for readers to like it better? Actually, if you want stuff for readers to be done, why are you disagreeing with this thread that actually asks about doing something for readers? :blob_hmm_two: You're honestly confusing me. I have no idea what you even want.

Personally, to get back to the actual topic: I really like the idea @Queenfisher brought up in this thread originally. I think the site lacks engagement and I'm personally a lazy reader who likes to binge-read when stuff is finished and doesn't comment often but I can be motivated by nice little gimmicks like level systems and stuff. (Or authors and translators guilt-tripping me, btw, that works wonders as well :blob_sweat:)
 

Queenfisher

Bird?
Joined
May 29, 2020
Messages
333
Points
108
No. But, it is more of where the priorities go. They have limited resources. Somethings just gets left behind. A natural thing to happen when resources are limited.

And you actually do get it. They focused on the writers more and doesn't improve much of anything for the readers. Their efforts are on the writers. Isn't that them caring more about the writers? It just what it is.

The other way works too. Without authors writing stories, readers have nothing to read. So no writers = no reason for readers to come and read and, no authors writing longtern - no reason for readers to stay long term. This is a two way street.

The best approach would be to put attention on both. Don't leave either side stagnating. However, it just happens, that they don't. They are happy with how the reader side is going on and put their efforts on the writers side. It is not because they don't care about the readers, they just think there is nothing to improve on that side or something. You even realized this.

It just how it comes to be. Well, there is Tony explaining his side, but intentions are one thing, results are another. An intention to help doesn't mean you are actually helping. Not that they aren't doing anything. They do great with moderating and they provide basic features for the readers, but, we all know that readers need more than just moderating and the basics to be engaged.

I still don't understand the downside to how you describe it since everything that you group as the downside of this potential tweak already exists exactly as you describe it. So... because it's already bad as it is, we shouldn't try to encourage good things at all? In the hopes that doing nothing eliminates the problems that already are???

Also, I am not an optimist compared to you, even though it might seem like I am :blob_uwu:. I do see it for what it is -- I'm just saying that some (okay, many) writers on this site are depressed due to low engagement on the readers' side. So promoting liked comments specifically seems like a fairly nice solution because it's nothing new, just a label for a pattern that already exists.

What you say about "fake-nice"-comments vs chad awesome honest comments -- I already addressed above. It's a non-issue. No one cares. What people do care about is being noticed or at least a push to keep going: motivation.

And regarding the Linnaeus allegory =), I just wanted to highlight that everything good you see about cucumbers in the store is because of the scientific labeling system that allowed people to properly group them and modify and evolve them to the condition you, or any other person, can buy in store without caring about how this naming system and scientific methodology works. What you now know of as "cucumber" is work of science (the OG cucumbers were shit, honestly! They were smol and bitter as hell, and I'm not even talking about other produce! Take a look at the OG watermelon), and science relies on something deeper than the surface level. In short, because somebody does use a system you don't -- you enjoy the fruit it bears without having to waste your own personal time on it.

That the system I proposed is encouragement and not a labeling misses the point of my argument: what it supposedly "records" is only a pattern that already exists. Maybe giving this pattern a name is encouraging, maybe not. But I don't see how giving it a name will suddenly crash the system or unleash an armageddon of horrors.

For real -- it's a small plaque -- "Engaged Reader". No need to overdramatize it. I don't exactly imagine a TON of people rushing to get it like it's some kind of a Grand-Prix in who's the real deal on this site, and who isn't. I guess it will be nice for those who are already commenting a lot and get liked by others -- because what they do is kind of a work, and the work that promotes motivation for writers.

And they are currently doing this work absolutely for free (i.e. unnoticed and unrewarded). So I only thought that rewarding them for it might not be a bad idea.

P.S.: I get what you're saying about the resources spent on this -- I do! I just don't understand your other arguments that well...
 

Tony

Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Dec 21, 2018
Messages
704
Points
133
And thanks @Tony for clarifying that. I was a bit weirded out by the assumption. I think it was implicit before but: I think you're doing a really great job! I do like the site and hope it grows even more in the future. :blob_melt:

Thanks! The site has been growing really well recently!!!

I'm currently working on an app for SH. I posted an alpha version of the app on the discord yesterday for anyone who wants to see the progress but I wouldn't recommend anyone using it. It's just for anyone who wants to see the progress. I'll spend most of my time on the app as I think it's super important for SH to have an app to get to the next level.

It just how it comes to be. Well, there is Tony explaining his side, but intentions are one thing, results are another. An intention to help doesn't mean you are actually helping. Not that they aren't doing anything. They do great with moderating and they provide basic features for the readers, but, we all know that readers need more than just moderating and the basics to be engaged.

Results = features, right?

I haven't counted but If we're comparing features, I think readers has more features targeted at them imo. There's the reading list, chapter reading settings, next/previous chapter button, series finder, genre/tags to easier find novels, similar series (it's bad at the moment, I know), reviews (needs a rework), sort reviews by ratings, favorites, release filtering, follow authors to get alerts for new books, dark theme, etc...

Even if you don't use any of those features, those features were implemented for the readers.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
No, no, I didn't get that impression at all. I simply see authors make many, many more suggestions than readers so, naturally, features that are benefitting authors will get implemented more often. And if I remember correctly, then there were some small suggestions for a better reading experience like going to the next/previous chapter with the arrow keys and stuff like that which ... was promptly worked on? So if there are reader-centered suggestions, they're taken very seriously as well.
So if anything, then the readers should get on here and suggest stuff they want. If they do, it'll get implemented. As easy as that.
I think those features where on the early stages of this site? And that is a pretty basic feature. Tony probably have facepalmed that it have to be requested for it to be implemented.

And, I don't mean they don't take things seriously, there are just priorities. Things just go where more are done for the writers than for the readers.
I still don't agree with this though. Honestly, if you're salty about 'nothing being done for readers': Go ahead and make suggestions. What do you think the site needs for readers to like it better? Actually, if you want stuff for readers to be done, why are you disagreeing with this thread that actually asks about doing something for readers? :blob_hmm_two: You're honestly confusing me. I have no idea what you even want.
I'm not actually salty about it. To me it is just what it is. Is water wet? Yes it is!

And I'm not actually disagreeing with the idea but more of what is being said about it. I think it is a great ideas to generate more reader engagement but "motivate writers to write more" or "just adding labels" or "nothing to worry about spamming and trolls" . . . eh. Not really.
Personally, to get back to the actual topic: I really like the idea @Queenfisher brought up in this thread originally. I think the site lacks engagement and I'm personally a lazy reader who likes to binge-read when stuff is finished and doesn't comment often but I can be motivated by nice little gimmicks like level systems and stuff. (Or authors and translators guilt-tripping me, btw, that works wonders as well :blob_sweat:)
As I said, if this is what SH wants. I don't really think they want more work on moderating the reader's interactions and ironing out the bugs. New features always comes with problems and considering that SH is happy with the reader's side now, I don't really think we are going to be interested with this. And even if they are, priorities would just put this at the very low end.
 

Ral

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2019
Messages
604
Points
133
Results = features, right?

I haven't counted but If we're comparing features, I think readers has more features targeted at them imo. There's the reading list, chapter reading settings, next/previous chapter button, series finder, genre/tags to easier find novels, similar series (it's bad at the moment, I know), reviews (needs a rework), sort reviews by ratings, favorites, release filtering, follow authors to get alerts for new books, dark theme, etc...

Even if you don't use any of those features, those features were implemented for the readers.
The thing is, these are pretty basic features. If we want them, pretty much any other platforms provide them, better in fact.

Not to belittle your work here. You've done a good job, but, I think, though it seems to be incorrect, that you are focusing more on the writers side. I don't have problems with you focusing there, but considering that, features like this, that might have lots of potential issues, might just end being half-baked or create more problems. Not having this feature is better than having this feature poorly implemented.
 
Top