Seeking feedback

IvyVeritas

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I'm interested in getting some feedback for my story, The Eighth Warden. The genre is traditional, epic high fantasy, with slow-building harem overtones but no explicit scenes.

So far, I've posted the first ten chapters, which switch back and forth between flashbacks and the present day (after Chapter 10, the rest of the first book will remain in the present day). I've received a few complaints about the structure, but I've received an equal number of comments telling me to keep it as it is. One thing I'm debating is whether starting Chapter 1 with "Twenty-eight years earlier..." is a problem. As a new reader, is it confusing for that to be the first thing you encounter? If it's a problem, I could change Chapter 1 to "Prologue" instead, and remove the time indicator at the beginning.

Let me know what you think, if anyone's interested in looking...

The grammar and syntax are in good shape, but if you notice any problems, I definitely want to fix them.
 

Mizu

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I agree that the switching between the present and the past can be a bit disorienting. The chapters themselves are good but it feels as if I am reading two different stories. A prequel and then the story. Perhaps spacing them out a bit more would have been better. I don't really see any reason that the past stories absolutely need to be where they are but they are good.
Overall the story is really good. It is super atmospheric and immersive. The descriptive wording and tone you use works really well. I feel as if I am in a high fantasy world. I dislike Harems so I might skip this one but the world does make me want to keep reading. Though I think the slow-building harem might help alleviate some of the worse parts of harem stories. As for whether you should change the story... it is up to you. I probably wouldn't change it because you have already built the story like this but if you did decide to redo it a bit more spacing with these chapters would probably be better and less disorienting. Especially if they stop after chapter 10. It feels as if they are being shoehorned into the beginning when they could simply be where it makes more sense to put them. I don't really feel compelled to read the past chapters and it doesn't seem to be necessary to enjoy the present ones.
 

IvyVeritas

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Mizu, thank you for the feedback! Yes, spacing them out more is an option that might work. Perhaps after I've finished Book 1, I could give that a try. In some cases, the flashbacks are designed to come before a certain scene, but I may be able to change those things.

As for the harem thing, it technically qualifies as that, but I'm attempting to subvert some of the more problematic tropes in the genre. I don't know how well it'll work yet, but I'm happy with it so far (I'm up to Chapter 19).
 

Mizu

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I think it won't be a problem, I am just hesitant to read those kind of stories tend to be super cliched. In fact, I think that by not writing out sexual content you have passed the first and most important hurdle. I like this way of doing sexual content because it allows you to bring it up but not throw it into the readers face. Most of the time if they want to read that they go to specific areas but leaving it out in a realistic book also breaks immersion. I do something similar in my story.
I think I will probably add it to my reading list and seeing how it progresses as I love the world-building. A question, cause I like to talk about stories and writing: What is your plan for the magic system? I am getting vibes that it is soft magic, like many other High fantasy novels, but it could still be hard magic as well. I prefer soft magic cause it allows you to keep a mystic atmosphere but part of the problem I find with using it is that it sometimes becomes a crutch. How does the hero save them-self? Magic!
Yeah, keep book 1 the way that it is. Changing it now would require too much work and may leave the rest of the story feel off paced. It could be a huge problem for immersion as well if you do take them out, some of the flashbacks are fairly important. I just found that there were too many and it broke up the story a bit too much. Finish book 1 and then take the time to look into it, it isn't as easy as just removing the chapters.
 

IvyVeritas

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I haven't actually heard the terms hard magic or soft magic before, so I don't know how to answer that.

...but, in regard to this story, I've mapped out each main character's growth, matched up to the major story beats. I may need to tweak things as I go, to keep the power levels consistent with the storyline, but I have a plan for each of those characters.

Across the chapters I've written so far (not all of which have been posted here yet), I've tried to show both their strengths and their weaknesses, plus some small indications of growth, and their attempts to address their weaknesses.
 

Mizu

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Cool. I tend to be more of a winger type of writer. I do have plans but mostly I flow into one thing or the next.
As for soft magic and hard magic, I may not explain it well but here is the general idea: soft magic is when the magic within the world isn't clearly defined. There may be limits to it and certain rules but for the most part they are not clearly defined. Avatar is a good example of this. (I know it isn't magic but the principles remain the same) The benders grow stronger as they train but we don't really know anything about it other than that. It has some rules that it follows but we don't know those exact rules. Another example is Lord of the Rings. There are rules but the reader doesn't really know them that well. When soft magic is used the author has to be careful not to cheat the reader by coming up with something random. Instead they must make it seem logical. Take metal bending for example: it makes sense that Toph can bend metal. They contain earthly substances. One of the few rules about bending that we know.
Hard magic is when the rules are clearly defined. An example of this would be Full Metal Alchemist. The rules of the world are clearly defined and whatever happens it follows those rules. When magic is used to solve something it has to follow the rules. It cannot just happen.
Most magic is a mixture between the two of them but the general ideas remain the same. The more rules and limitations upon magic we have the 'harder' the magic system. Hope that this is a good explanation. You can totally look it up if you are unclear with anything I said.
 

IvyVeritas

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Thanks for the explanation. I suspect this story falls somewhere in between hard and soft magic. Taken as a whole, magic is soft, in that there are different ways to use it. For each character, it's hard--that character has specific, pre-defined spells they know. They may be able to learn others, and might learn something just in the nick of time for narrative purposes, but they can't just make the magic do something outside of those boundaries.
 

Mizu

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Awesome. I am also using soft magic but I decided to make it more mellow inside the story. It is there and it exists but it is used to hint at some things and not to solve problems. Michael's magically sigil (it is called the imperial sigil) grants him a couple of super human abilities. It isn't ever explained the exact effects except for two things: He is immune to poison and he has a supernatural healing ability (Even that is rather soft cause it isn't explained how strong it is). In my current story I deal with soft magic by not using it to solve problems. Michael's problems are much larger than he is being assassinated. He has to run a country, the sigil simply doesn't help him when it comes to that.
 

Elateam

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I read through the first 4 chapters and I have to say, it's better than the garbage I wrote.

Self-deprecating jokes aside, the 'past' chapters felt more like side-stories that revealed things about the different characters, their motivations and traits but it didn't really bother me too much (maybe if I read all the chapters my opinion would change. I'd also recommend spacing the 'past' chapters out more as it could disturb immersion). As Mizu said, I really enjoyed the world-building because it developed that feeling of being where the protagonist was at that moment. Personally, I don't write harem because I've had enough of the tropes and I think it would detract from my overall story, but you have been doing a good job at it so I'd say write on.

As for magic systems. I'm also having a hard time fully solidifying whether I'd want a soft or hard system in my fantasy book. I might just go with a soft magic system because I never really wanted my book to go on a magic-like direction. But regardless of either, I'm always reminded of this quote from Brandon Sanderson: "An author's ability to solve conflict with magic is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic." So long as you can build up the lore of how that magic came to be, its uses, its drawbacks, any side effects from over-use, etc, you can use it properly to resolve or create tension and other things if your story takes on that direction.

In my book, 'aura' is sort of the mana and it originates from individuals who, one way or another, defeat a Beast successfully (an abnormally large-sized animal: lion, crow, you name it). By defeating the 'Beast' they gain a 'magical' sigil with said Beast on it with the power to subjugate the Beasts' kin (i.e. defeating a Beast lion allows you to subjugate lions for use in the army, etc.), giving these individuals the divine right to be Rajas. They can also do other things with this 'magical' sigil, like ordering their subjugated animals to scout or transport goods, but that depends on the Beast that was subjugated. This is how I ended up developing the lore in my book though I haven't been able to tell it all as of yet because it's much more complicated than that.

By the way, it seems all of our books are historical in some way which is pretty cool. I hardly see any of this genre on the site (that or I might be blind).
 
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Mizu

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I agree. Brandon Sanderson's quote is essential to using magic inside a book. Magic isn't well defined in my story on purpose. I want it to seem mystical because I have so few mystical elements in the book. It makes you remember that this isn't our world but another one. Overall I probably could have done better with the magic inside my story but I feel that its current state isn't all that bad. I have a prequel planned but even within the prequel I don't really plan to explain the magic very much.

I love historical books and I find many of the people who do 'historical' books can do it in so many ways. Mine is more European while IvyVeritas's is more fantasy. I haven't read yours but it seems to be more Indian and Hindu to me, correct me if I am wrong. (I noticed all of us use sigils as well, which is hilarious) I might get around to reading it as historical is my favorite genre.

I don't think you are wrong about historical. There are about 27 novels that claim to be historical novels with at least 5 chapters and over 5,000 words. (I use claim because I have not read them) Though I think that The Eighth Warden is more fantasy than historical (though the tag might apply because the world building makes me think that it is historical with how realistic it feels). About ten of theses appear to be Chinese historical novels. So it would be safe to assume that only a few of the remaining 17 would be European historical novels.

(Note that I excluded Boyslove, Girlslove, and fanfiction. I am not really interested in reading them so I just naturally excluded them.)
 

IvyVeritas

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Thanks for the feedback, Elateam!

Brandon Sanderson's definitely the expert at magic systems. Or at least hard magic systems, using the definition above. He puts a lot of work into making things internally and externally consistent.

My world does fall more on the fantasy side than the historical side, as Mizu noted, but I do a lot of research on the elements that go into it. The armor and weapons are medieval European (though spread over several centuries), while social structures range from Victorian (such as interactions between nobles and servants) to colonial or westward expansion (such as farms or village life, which are partly modeled after the Little House books). As for horse, mule, and donkey behavior, well, that's just all google. How did writers survive before google?
 

Mizu

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They read a lot and they had to study the topics to the best of their ability. You are doing similar things but you simply have better access to the information. I have a hard time with it as well. I try not to bother too much with the exact weapons and armor because I have a grand scale and most of the time the armies didn't have a single weapon, they used whatever they could find. I focus on tactics and strategies. The war between two countries inside my book has been mostly just movement. There have been two sieges (one of which took two chapters) and two chapters dedicated to battles. This is over a 50 chapter book. Action is happening more often now because of the situation but there are still chapters dedicated to troop movement between each of the chapters dedicated to battle. An example would be one of the battles. The first chapter sets the stage as the Allonian characters discuss what they should do and how the will react to an opposing Arrian Army. The next chapter is the battle taking place. A good portion of it is the armies moving as well. The fighting itself is rather brief (time wise cause battles could take hours but these are rather short in the grand scheme of things) compared to everything else.
Sorry for the rant. I do that a lot. I can tell that you are well researched was the point. Everything seems well placed and thought out. I even liked the donkey behavior thing. The world is immersive and nothing seems un-thoughtful. I was thinking about doing a feedback post as well. I haven't really gotten much people talking about my story as of late and I happen to enjoy talking to readers about their ideas. I like to flow write which means that characters and events write themselves out. I have a rough draft but it is more of a suggestion than a rule. Talking with other people allows me to solidify these characters in my head. I often talk about my characters as other people because when I write they feel like other people. Do you have something similar that happens with you?
 

IvyVeritas

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Yes, that happens to me, too. The characters take shape as I write them. I don't usually plan out the characters' personalities in advance, because as I write, they find their own voice. And once they do, that's how I think of them.
 

Mizu

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I am glad I am not the only one. Sometimes I worry that characters feel too similar because I am not use to expressing myself in different ways so some of the differences end up feeling superficial. Is there any way that you use to combat this? Or do you also struggle with this?
 

Elateam

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I agree. Brandon Sanderson's quote is essential to using magic inside a book. Magic isn't well defined in my story on purpose. I want it to seem mystical because I have so few mystical elements in the book. It makes you remember that this isn't our world but another one. Overall I probably could have done better with the magic inside my story but I feel that its current state isn't all that bad. I have a prequel planned but even within the prequel I don't really plan to explain the magic very much.

I love historical books and I find many of the people who do 'historical' books can do it in so many ways. Mine is more European while IvyVeritas's is more fantasy. I haven't read yours but it seems to be more Indian and Hindu to me, correct me if I am wrong. (I noticed all of us use sigils as well, which is hilarious) I might get around to reading it as historical is my favorite genre.

I don't think you are wrong about historical. There are about 27 novels that claim to be historical novels with at least 5 chapters and over 5,000 words. (I use claim because I have not read them) Though I think that The Eighth Warden is more fantasy than historical (though the tag might apply because the world building makes me think that it is historical with how realistic it feels). About ten of theses appear to be Chinese historical novels. So it would be safe to assume that only a few of the remaining 17 would be European historical novels.

(Note that I excluded Boyslove, Girlslove, and fanfiction. I am not really interested in reading them so I just naturally excluded them.)

My World is more historical I feel. I spent a lot of years researching medieval dynamics and played a few games like CK2, Victoria 2 and EU4 to understand things a bit better and because they were fun. My novel is different in that it does take place in the Indian subcontinent since I wanted to make the setting different compared to other books that I've come across online and from that I thought that religion might also be an interesting theme to explore. To tell you the truth, it's hard being a historical writer on SH because not many people are into it unless it is Isekai or LitRPG or revolves on something that isn't repetitive. I might be wrong, but that's what I've been seeing for the past few months.

I also am not into fanfiction, BL or GL either so we're both on the same boat ;)

Thanks for the feedback, Elateam!

Brandon Sanderson's definitely the expert at magic systems. Or at least hard magic systems, using the definition above. He puts a lot of work into making things internally and externally consistent.

My world does fall more on the fantasy side than the historical side, as Mizu noted, but I do a lot of research on the elements that go into it. The armor and weapons are medieval European (though spread over several centuries), while social structures range from Victorian (such as interactions between nobles and servants) to colonial or westward expansion (such as farms or village life, which are partly modeled after the Little House books). As for horse, mule, and donkey behavior, well, that's just all google. How did writers survive before google?

Brandon Sanderson is the boss ;)

I've been doing the same research as you for a long time, but I've got to admit, you've pulled it off better than I could at the beginning so keep up the good work! I feel my biggest problem is going to be how I'll be balancing out social structures while dealing with a caste system. That'll be an interesting problem.:sweating_profusely:

They read a lot and they had to study the topics to the best of their ability. You are doing similar things but you simply have better access to the information. I have a hard time with it as well. I try not to bother too much with the exact weapons and armor because I have a grand scale and most of the time the armies didn't have a single weapon, they used whatever they could find. I focus on tactics and strategies. The war between two countries inside my book has been mostly just movement. There have been two sieges (one of which took two chapters) and two chapters dedicated to battles. This is over a 50 chapter book. Action is happening more often now because of the situation but there are still chapters dedicated to troop movement between each of the chapters dedicated to battle. An example would be one of the battles. The first chapter sets the stage as the Allonian characters discuss what they should do and how the will react to an opposing Arrian Army. The next chapter is the battle taking place. A good portion of it is the armies moving as well. The fighting itself is rather brief (time wise cause battles could take hours but these are rather short in the grand scheme of things) compared to everything else.
Sorry for the rant. I do that a lot. I can tell that you are well researched was the point. Everything seems well placed and thought out. I even liked the donkey behavior thing. The world is immersive and nothing seems un-thoughtful. I was thinking about doing a feedback post as well. I haven't really gotten much people talking about my story as of late and I happen to enjoy talking to readers about their ideas. I like to flow write which means that characters and events write themselves out. I have a rough draft but it is more of a suggestion than a rule. Talking with other people allows me to solidify these characters in my head. I often talk about my characters as other people because when I write they feel like other people. Do you have something similar that happens with you?

I'm on a similar boat. I don't bother with the strict details of a weapon, if it's a sword it's a sword. I like to focus on the human condition when I write. I made the one battle I wrote feel really bloody in the perspective of the protagonist just so that people could feel what it was like to see all that blood and feel overwhelmed to some extent. When I write a clash between the MC and an enemy, I want people to feel the hopelessness of the situation so that they knew I wasn't afraid to kill off a character. It's things like these that I feel bring a story alive.

If the story is great then there will be people commenting about what'll happen next. It took me two months to get my first comment, though I haven't had the opportunity to ask someone what they think would happen next in my book ;) I also like to flow write but I've got a loose fit for character arcs so that I can angle it in the direction I had set out and talking with other people about the story really does help explore new paths that would have otherwise been non-existent to us. Both of your novels are fun to read so I'll be following them for the future.:blob_paint:

I think it'd be cool if we made a Discord server to help each other out from time to time on our works since we're all into history and our books, for the most part, are heavily reliant on historical knowledge. I'll try getting one setup if either of you is willing.
 

Mizu

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I would be willing. I mostly research battle tactics and strategies. My problem is that I write battles from a far too analytical place. This isn't a big deal because most of the POVs are commanders and they tend not to engage in battle but direct. I am working on a thread about my novel. If you want to talk about it there that would be awesome. I love other people's opinions. It helps me grow as a writer.
 

IvyVeritas

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I am glad I am not the only one. Sometimes I worry that characters feel too similar because I am not use to expressing myself in different ways so some of the differences end up feeling superficial. Is there any way that you use to combat this? Or do you also struggle with this?

Some characters are easier for me to write than others. In The Eighth Warden, Shavala's the hardest character to write so far, which is why she's had fewer point-of-view scenes. I've been improving, and I think she'll come into her voice eventually, but I've found it harder to make her personality stand out from the others, as a non-human.

I don't really know what a discord is, but I'll try to figure it out. Tonight's editing time, though. I'm working on getting Chapters 17-19 ready for Patreon, and getting Silver Street Strip Club Book 5 prepped for Amazon.
 
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