so what are the rules in regards to comments in chapters. just had what i assume is the author deleting a whole comment chain

[Ral]

Probably because it doesn't make sense to put those ideas together when they have different goals in mind? The whole point of there being "qualified" reviewers, which by the way...

Doesn't make sense in what way? You aren't exactly explaining yourself here. I mean, such things are already implemented in other platforms like RottenTomatoes or Metacritic.

And so they have different goals so they can't be together? That doesn't make sense. And unlike you I'll explain why. A lot of things that have different purpose or even completely contrary purpose have been brought together. A pencil lead writes, an eraser erases. Can't be together? They can. A regular pencil writes in one end and erases with the other. A sofa is to sit on, a bed is to lie on/sleep on. Can't be together? Sofa beds exists. Seriously, things that have different goals have been put together in various ways for the entire human history. Why would it not make sense now?

Cupcake used first and I don't have another word for calling someone that has to be checked before being allow to review under his system.

Let me: regulated reviews, unregulated reviews. Cupcake might also have issue with terms here too. His idea doesn't really revolve around qualifications but restrictions.

But on topic, that wouldn't stop troll reviews if all you did was divide between the two.

But that is not the point. I'm not presenting my idea as a means to stop trolling.

Then you'd end up with people just ignoring one or the other which isn't good for either sets of reviewers because what would be the point if people ignored you?

So what if they ignore one or the other? I mean, many people already ignoring the reviews and ratings here? If this is one of your criteria then the system failed badly at.

And if there are a lot of reviews then most of them would be ignored. So what? Only few reviews allowed?

Like, seriously. How can you even make everyone give their attention to everything?

Then there's the thing where if you wanted a specific reviewer for better feedback, we already have that in the forums where you can ask people for help.

Uhm… You can't actually get a specific reviewer for feedback this way and they (well Cupcake) aren't looking for a specific reviewer but a helpful review.

Not only that. This is a very roundabout way to do things. The separate accounts, the separate platforms, the fact that the review would only be visible in the forum, the readers are mostly in the main platform, etc.. It just not exactly what they are looking for either. I'm not even sure if most of SH people actually visits the forum.

And how do people rate stories? By generally going for how much they enjoyed it. For its accuracy, one could argue against a scale.

That is why I said "supposed" when I talk about it. It was never meant for a consensus but to be an actual value related to quality.

Though chances are if people aren't liking the story, it's not of that great of a quality, with some exceptions.

And again, I did mention "average" and how it converges. The thing is, you need a lot of data, and especially quality data. You know, the nature of statistics and such. This is what the rating system is based upon.

And even in your consensus idea, it still does not equate. Just consider. How many stories here actually have very low average ratings? Does that mean, according to the consensus, almost all stories here are liked by the readers? That can't be. You see, if readers don't like a story, most just don't bother to rate (and those who do are called trolls so maybe they don't count?).

Those exceptions being if the story entertains or showcases certain controversial topics among the readers. NTR and rape being some of the bigger examples, but I'm sure there's more.

See? It is more about the people/community. A thing is not rated highly because it is good, but that what the people/community thought is good or they like. And yes there are many examples, pretty much everything is an example, it just depends on what platform you are on.

On the other hand, who is to say, the readers might don't like the NTR and the rape is because the authors are just bad in writing them?

You took the time to quote out a bunch that I wrote and somehow didn't understand that I'm talking about written reviews on their own.

Because you mixing things. My bad. You mixing things kinda confuses me a bit. A new paragraph maybe?

Still, you are kinda wrong. Most really doesn't tell you why they like or dislike your story. Maybe your story receives such helpful feedback but, from what I can see, most don't.

Perhaps I should've cut them into different paragraphs, but you very clearly read the words before it. So please don't misrepresent what I'm saying.

Sorry about that. And yes I read it but because of lack of paragraphing I got confused.

~~~~~~

The thing is, the system as it is isn't working well. Maybe it worked for you, and I don't mean it doesn't work all the time, but for the most part, it just doesn't.

Still, if you like the way things work. Good for you. But then again, you aren't the only one here. I guess it depends on the consensus then? Which idea receives more approval?… Not really, it depends on Tony.

 

[Z__SKULL]

well shit I went to bed and came back to this explosion. I don't really want to shame this guy to much though i am pissed so I'm right on the edge of rolling him over with a not great review that is actully rather profession all things considered. his story is decent. better than a lot of shovel ware on the site but as with a lot of stories on here. it is slowly degrading into a mess. It's smut btw no surprise there.

His attitude to actual criticism is the real issue. Not trolling or people saying upsetting things for the sake of it. those I can understand deleting but not people trying to help the guy out. I understand that most of these people are amateur writers and I'm not expecting a New York Times best seller. hell I don't even care that much about correct grammar as long as it legible and does not take me out of the story. the vast majority of the stories will be mediocre at best because you know these people are doing this as a hobby or just starting out. so I wont hold them to the same standard as I would with JRR Tolkien or Robert Jordan and I'm not going to punish those authors for trying. that would be an asshole move. by the same token i expect authors to show me respect as a reader. If I give you the legitimate critique I expect you at the very least not to delete it and acknowledge it. you don't have to agree with it mind you. but insulting me then deleting everything and acting like it doesn't exist because you can do no wrong and your the god emperor of mankind is not ok either. blood for the blood god

 

[Z__SKULL]

Meh. There's no reason why people shouldn't share their work just because they don't like hearing criticism. It's not like the author went around being angry about the criticism, they just deleted it. No harm done. We don't even know why they deleted OPs comment.

The moment authors can police their boundaries around criticism, expect it to be used in ways people don't like. If people can't take that they should just not post criticism.

oh he was angry and proceeded to harass and insult people. it all gone now though, everything. i just spent 40 mins combing all the comments just about everything that isn't positive and all his retorts to them is gone so I can't actually provide much evidence now. this is all that's left and its circumstantial at best. anyway this will be the last of it. unless a mod decides to pull logs.... sad thing to because for a smut story it's not actually terrible. he just writing himself into a corner and a couple of us tried to let him know that what he's doing is not a good idea. but we were met with hostility ever time. me and 46rtyrt44 tried to help him with valid critique that was not trolling and was aimed at trying to help the author improve, we were trying to help him.... the only thing i can say is if you don't hate his story give it a try then give him some actually professionally feedback that he doesn't want to hear and see how long it stays.... I'm done trying to help, fuck this guy

 

[Ral]

oh he was angry and proceed to harass and insult people. it all gone now though, everything. i just spent 40 mins combing all the comments just about everything that isn't positive and all his retorts to them is gone so I can't actually provide much evidence now. this is all that's left and its circumstantial at best. anyway this will be the last of it. unless a mod decides to pull logs.... I'm done fuck this guyView attachment 5608View attachment 5609View attachment 5610

LamenThief? Uh! Here, from my inbox, all because I dare to question him. It is very, very long so I'll just give a snippet:

 

[Z__SKULL]

LamenThief? Uh! Here, from my inbox, all because I dare to question him. It is very, very long so I'll just give a snippet:

I'm conflicted. On one hand I don't want to turn this into a witch hunt. but fuck me, this guy is a legitimate asshole if you don't worship the ground he walks on. i think his issues is that everything not even remotely positive is taken to be a personal insult against him. One of the weirdest things is he seems to be ok with somebody correcting his grammar but woe onto you if you question the plot or intentions of his stories. then it's like you're coming to kill his children or something

 

[Discount_Blade]

All I know is, I want the star-ratings removed and leave WRITTEN COMMENTS OR REVIEWS as the ONLY way to give feedback. The only way.

Because little whining ass kids on here aren't mature enough to handle a few one-stars. They break down and start screaming troll. And if this comments offends you, guess what? Eat it. You're part of the problem.

 

[BenJepheneT]

LamenThief? Uh! Here, from my inbox, all because I dare to question him. It is very, very long so I'll just give a snippet:
View attachment 5612

I'd like to imagine this conversation in a physical form where this LamenThief guy is just a very soft cat wheezing bloody murder in your face while having a lisp.

"do you want two mwek seems stewpid? what I dew two you a-an' Dee hatwers-"

 

[Moonpearl]

I'm apologizing for how this sounds, but I want an answer on one thing: what good reason would someone desire an unwritten rating system other than them being too lazy to leave feedback? In my opinion, if you (wait, who's "you"?) are putting in the effort to praise or trash someone's novel, then why not give your reason? What did you find that was good or bad? What is your excuse that you can't be bothered to talk? This is a website full of stories that takes longer to read than it would watching its (hypothetically speaking) animated or live adaption. You can't take a minute to say something? Now that I had just said all of that that's not being lazy, that's stupid. What the hell is your problem (I still don't know who "you" is here)?

Reviews are for readers, not for writers. They're not feedback, they're just opinions placed there to help other potential readers make their decision as to whether or not they want to pick up this book.
They're also much harder to write than people give credit for. In order to write a review that's truly helpful to potential readers, you need to put thought into what you want to say and what they'd want to know, and you need to express your thoughts clearly.
If you don't think you have anything helpful to say, why would you bother trying? And if you do try, but you don't succeed, apparently there are people ballsy enough to complain about that.

Then there's the fact that authors who can't accept that reviews are not there for them will sometimes chase readers into their DMs or profile pages to "confront" them about reviews they disliked.
As someone who runs many events and competitions for writers to participate in, I've been screamed at by some truly batshit insane authors just for informing them that their piece had one or two lines that failed to meet an objective set of rules. I don't blame anyone for choosing to duck out sight of those guys.

Basically, for someone to leave a review, they have to want to say something to potential readers, have the drive and the skill to say it, and be brave enough to risk harassment from the author.
No surprise that most people won't do it.

 

[CL]

Reviews are for readers, not for writers. They're not feedback, they're just opinions placed there to help other potential readers make their decision as to whether or not they want to pick up this book.
They're also much harder to write than people give credit for. In order to write a review that's truly helpful to potential readers, you need to put thought into what you want to say and what they'd want to know, and you need to express your thoughts clearly.
If you don't think you have anything helpful to say, why would you bother trying? And if you do try, but you don't succeed, apparently there are people ballsy enough to complain about that.

Then there's the fact that authors who can't accept that reviews are not there for them will sometimes chase readers into their DMs or profile pages to "confront" them about reviews they disliked.
As someone who runs many events and competitions for writers to participate in, I've been screamed at by some truly batshit insane authors just for informing them that their piece had one or two lines that failed to meet an objective set of rules. I don't blame anyone for choosing to duck out sight of those guys.

Basically, for someone to leave a review, they have to want to say something to potential readers, have the drive and the skill to say it, and be brave enough to risk harassment from the author.
No surprise that most people won't do it.

I won't argue with this at all. You are correct. That's... That is a fact. Not your opinion; a truth.

Here is what I will say: the first half of what has been said to me mentions readers (like me) have to put in effort and thought. My opinion (and it is only my opinion) was initially pointing out that these unreadable ratings were an act of laziness (effort), but I then changed my mind into believing it was stupidity (thought) preventing anyone from knowing why this or that story had a rating like that. Those readers who go in blind still have to figure out on their own why there is a five star or one star rating. Sometimes they haven't a clue why it has a rating at all when the story itself is not finished. I can support those who'd rate a complete product, but you're judging something that isn't done? That's like tasting a chicken that hasn't been fully cooked (don't do that).

You are correct. These are all supposed to be used to help readers and not writers. But it isn't a healthy practice and with as many complaints about it as we've had over the years (yes, the 2nd anniversary is right in front of us) says that people are getting hurt. Also, yes, you can grow some thick skin to toughen it out. I think that can also be done through scarring. Do you really want to be scarred from this? Do you really want to ignore the pain and become numb to your passion? I don't and I will say it again: this system hurts people.

 

[Ral]

Sometimes they haven't a clue why it has a rating at all when the story itself is not finished. I can support those who'd rate a complete product, but you're judging something that isn't done? That's like tasting a chicken that hasn't been fully cooked (don't do that).

The analogy does not work. A written work and cooked food are complete different things with nothing in common.

In the first place, the work here are serials. They aren't like normal novels and not just because they are published in chapters, but they also have an entirely different structure from your typical novel. You can't treat the two the same way.

Serials are also often designed not to end. Think of soap operas. They can reach up to thousands of episodes and spans multiple generations time-wise. Or just think of your typical manga.

And this feedback is serialization's strength compared to other forms of publishing. You can see your reader's reaction and you can change your work accordingly. This feedback system and flexibility is important.

Do you really want to ignore the pain and become numb to your passion? I don't and I will say it again: this system hurts people.

And so is life.

Anything of worth acquiring and achieving is filled with burdens, obstacles and suffering.

 

[Moonpearl]

I won't argue with this at all. You are correct. That's... That is a fact. Not your opinion; a truth.

Here is what I will say: the first half of what has been said to me mentions readers (like me) have to put in effort and thought. My opinion (and it is only my opinion) was initially pointing out that these unreadable ratings were an act of laziness (effort), but I then changed my mind into believing it was stupidity (thought) preventing anyone from knowing why this or that story had a rating like that. Those readers who go in blind still have to figure out on their own why there is a five star or one star rating. Sometimes they haven't a clue why it has a rating at all when the story itself is not finished. I can support those who'd rate a complete product, but you're judging something that isn't done? That's like tasting a chicken that hasn't been fully cooked (don't do that).

You are correct. These are all supposed to be used to help readers and not writers. But it isn't a healthy practice and with as many complaints about it as we've had over the years (yes, the 2nd anniversary is right in front of us) says that people are getting hurt. Also, yes, you can grow some thick skin to toughen it out. I think that can also be done through scarring. Do you really want to be scarred from this? Do you really want to ignore the pain and become numb to your passion? I don't and I will say it again: this system hurts people.

It's not the system - it's the act of writing. If you take away stars and force people to write, they'll hurt even more, because at least with stars they can tell themselves that it's just a troll or that person is dumb.
If everyone has to voice exactly why they like or dislike something, it forces the author to confront the truth. And maybe it turns out that they are just an idiot or a troll - but that's not going to be everyone, like they hoped it would be.

You don't need to read a whole novel to know whether it's good or bad.
I've read novels where, within two chapters, the author was able to show that they were racist and incapable of writing a narrative that didn't make you want to scratch your eyes out. Worse, they were both going to be ever-present problems for the entire book.
To hell if I or any other reader is going to force ourselves to the end of that crap before we can call a spade a spade. And in webfiction, the author might never even get round to writing the end. This place would be dead if everyone waited four years before leaving any opinions or feeback.

(Not to mention that many authors give up because they receive no comments, ratings or reviews.)

But one of the most vital skills an author must learn is the ability to separate the success of their story from their own self-worth and, until you learn that, you will always be hurt, even in the absence of star-ratings.
This is not "becoming numb to your passion". It's "learning that you can make mistakes in your art, knowing that you can always improve on them and that it doesn't make you a failure as an artist or a person".

 

[K5Rakitan]

I really don't like that quote.

Seriously. In that situation, if the editor gives back the manuscript without doing anything, the author would feel like they are wasting their money for paying an editor (which is really expensive) to do nothing. If the editor force themselves to do something, the editor would look like a douche for nitpicking or just look incompetent. The editor is damned whatever they do.

Whether the editor gets paid by the author or not depends on the publishing system. In traditional or semi-traditional publishing, it's free for an author to submit works, but we'll flat-out reject most of them. Sometimes, if it's close to the flavor we want but not quite there, we'll pee in it, hand it back to the author, and the author can decide whether the flavor is still acceptable before signing a contract. Then, the author gets paid an advance if it's a novel or a per-word fee if it's a short story to be printed in a magazine or something.

Of course, if you're dealing with a freelance editor, that's a completely separate ball of wax.

Heinlein was referring to traditional publishing.

 

[Ral]

Sometimes, if it's close to the flavor we want but not quite there, we'll pee in it, hand it back to the author, and the author can decide whether the flavor is still acceptable before signing a contract. Then, the author gets paid an advance if it's a novel or a per-word fee if it's a short story to be printed in a magazine or something.

We? Are you an editor to a publisher or work in one?

And even if the editor answers to the company, it is the company the editor should answer to which doesn't really change the situation. Also, strange that the author is still the one that deals with the frustrated editor, no?

And what you describe here is not the same situation as what the quote describes.

 

[K5Rakitan]

We? Are you an editor to a publisher or work in one?

And even if the editor answers to the company, it is the company the editor should answer to which doesn't really change the situation. Also, strange that the author is still the one that deals with the frustrated editor, no?

And what you describe here is not the same situation as what the quote describes.

Again, it depends on the publishing system. Small presses give us a lot more autonomy
Also, sometimes the managing director registers as a clergy member with the Church of Bacon so he can officiate your wedding.

 

[CL]

The analogy does not work. A written work and cooked food are complete different things with nothing in common.

I was comparing it in a way that artists don't want their work being seen by others until it is finished for a reason. I feel that should be that way for stories, but...

In the first place, the work here are serials. They aren't like normal novels and not just because they are published in chapters, but they also have an entirely different structure from your typical novel. You can't treat the two the same way.

Serials are also often designed not to end. Think of soap operas. They can reach up to thousands of episodes and spans multiple generations time-wise. Or just think of your typical manga.

And this feedback is serialization's strength compared to other forms of publishing. You can see your reader's reaction and you can change your work accordingly. This feedback system and flexibility is important.

I can't argue with that. You are right. I hadn't thought of it that way and seeing as how many of these stories here have been going on for years (yes, years) I see what is said by you is the truth.

And so is life.

Anything of worth acquiring and achieving is filled with burdens, obstacles and suffering.

That is the "work hard" approach, not the "work smart" one. What I am about to say may not at all be related to you or this, but I this last bit you're talking about reminded me of this: "The American Dream is still a dream." It won't matter how much work you put into something if you never receive recognition for it (and even then...).

Maybe I'm just frustrated, upset, angry, or mad (both kinds of madness). After I had posted my thoughts, I left for work and had been thinking about all the things I could've followed up with what I had said. I even thought about responses to whatever could've came my way from my initial post. The thing is I'm tired. Right now, I am in pain and I just want to sleep. I've made promises towards some people that I'll read their stories and say something to them about their efforts (in the comment section or in Discord DMs).

I believe the reason I am not feeling well about how all of this works is because there are different kinds of authors and readers on this website. The ones who do get their way are riding the tide and the ones who are not are being sucked under it. I've seen enough people who have tried to tell a story and be ignored. That reminds me of a quote about what is the true opposite of love; it's not hatred, it's indifference.

I'll make a better analogy than the chicken one I cooked up. Imagine you are performing on stage and everyone is silent. You've got to the good parts and are expectant of a reaction. Out of a full house you hear a couple of claps. A full house would be how many people? Fifty? A hundred? You heard a couple of claps. I would start losing some of my confidence right there and then. Now, go look at how many people have viewed your stories. Hundreds? Thousands? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Out of all of those people who've looked in on your performance, how many have congratulated you? What is that percentage? How many clapped a star or more on your stories?

It's not the system - it's the act of writing. If you take away stars and force people to write, they'll hurt even more, because at least with stars they can tell themselves that it's just a troll or that person is dumb.
If everyone has to voice exactly why they like or dislike something, it forces the author to confront the truth. And maybe it turns out that they are just an idiot or a troll - but that's not going to be everyone, like they hoped it would be.

You don't need to read a whole novel to know whether it's good or bad.
I've read novels where, within two chapters, the author was able to show that they were racist and incapable of writing a narrative that didn't make you want to scratch your eyes out. Worse, they were both going to be ever-present problems for the entire book.
To hell if I or any other reader is going to force ourselves to the end of that crap before we can call a spade a spade. And in webfiction, the author might never even get round to writing the end. This place would be dead if everyone waited four years before leaving any opinions or feeback.

(Not to mention that many authors give up because they receive no comments, ratings or reviews.)

But one of the most vital skills an author must learn is the ability to separate the success of their story from their own self-worth and, until you learn that, you will always be hurt, even in the absence of star-ratings.
This is not "becoming numb to your passion". It's "learning that you can make mistakes in your art, knowing that you can always improve on them and that it doesn't make you a failure as an artist or a person".

It sounds like I'm being told we're better off not knowing the truth. Is that a good thing?

 

[Moonpearl]

It sounds like I'm being told we're better off not knowing the truth. Is that a good thing?

No, I'm just saying that those who can't handle star ratings definitely can't handle written feedback, therefore forcing written feedback would go against their interests.

Writers are better off improving themselves so that one star ratings won't destroy their entire self-esteem.

 

[DarkGodEM]

As Lamen's friend and editor all I have to say is: Yeah, he does get aggravated easily.
But the amout of times ppl came to complain about my grammar where there was no mistake just because the lazy fucks use MTL to read and the MTL gave a wrong translation are not few.


Lamen does that kind of thing, this is his tertiary platform, He has both a Patreon and a WN with far more readers than here and I can straight up say this is the most toxic reader community off all the ones I post into (I hate RR far more than SH tho but ur mileage may vary)

And it's easy for you to complain for his reaction now, but the amount of shit he's gotten all those months in here made him simply not care about ppls opinions.

As was said by another friend who is also a pretty successful writer: "You can shit on a reader's head and they'll still read ur novel regardless. The only ones that matter are the ones willing to support your work financially, and those most times will not care what you say to others."

 

[Moonpearl]

As was said by another friend who is also a pretty successful writer: "You can shit on a reader's head and they'll still read ur novel regardless. The only ones that matter are the ones willing to support your work financially, and those most times will not care what you say to others."

???

On the contrary, I stop being able to enjoy a creator's work once they show themselves to be a cunt, and I immediately pull all funding.

Creators have been boycotted en masse many times before over their mistreatment of fans.

It's pretty obvious that PR matters in the long run?

 

[DarkGodEM]

???

On the contrary, I stop being able to enjoy a creator's work once they show themselves to be a cunt, and I immediately pull all funding.

Creators have been boycotted en masse many times before over their mistreatment of fans.

It's pretty obvious that PR matters in the long run?

Creators are boycoted for being biased, racist, that kind of cunt.

PR only really matter when you reach the millions or ur a cunt to everyone for no reason. If you have a reason then most ppl don't care. Mistreating fans for no reason in large venues or refuding to talk to them in public is one thing. Most writers for actual books are just despisable, just look at JK Rowling, yet ppl still buy their books.

Ppl are not gonna boycott you bc you told a reader to shut the fuck up for complaining.

They are if you mistreat a worker at a mcdonalds or say something offensive towards a race or sexuality.

 

[Moonpearl]

Creators are boycoted for being biased, racist, that kind of cunt.

PR only really matter when you reach the millions or ur a cunt to everyone for no reason. If you have a reason then most ppl don't care. Mistreating fans for no reason in large venues or refuding to talk to them in public is one thing. Most writers for actual books are just despisable, just look at JK Rowling, yet ppl still buy their books.

Ppl are not gonna boycott you bc you told a reader to shut the fuck up for complaining.

They are if you mistreat a worker at a mcdonalds or say something offensive towards a race or sexuality.

No, I actually do stop paying small-time authors who are shit towards readers. Why wouldn't I? People show their true colours in moments like that.
And if I let other people know what that author did, they generally also stop enjoying and paying them.

Authors who harass readers show themselves to be volatile and open to attacking even their own fans (if they didn't outright do that already). They show that they don't appreciate their readers, that they look down on them, despise them, and are unwilling to allow us to respond to their work in a way that isn't scripted according to their ideals.
I'm not naive enough to believe that an author like that would respect me just because I'm giving them my money. It's more likely that they think I'm a mug who's willing to pay for the privilege to be hated. Otherwise, they feel outright entitled to what I'm giving them.

I work hard for my money, so I want it to go towards people who will benefit from it and appreciate it. The nicer you are to your fans, the more you can get from me, honestly. I'm giving a lot right now to an artist who lost her job in the pandemic, just because I know she's a sweetheart who always loves her fans regardless of whether or not they donate.
But I'd hate myself if I gave money to some self-entitled swine who spat on me while taking it.
In fact, there are people who could offer me their services for free and I still wouldn't take it, thanks to their attitude problems.

People like that also lose the other crucial "funding" I provide, like heavy promotion to other people, support in events they participate in, etc.

It's an absolutely terrible idea to take your insecurity and anger issues out on your readers.

(Also, J. K. Rowling is being boycotted by just about everyone right now - even the actors who played her characters.)