The fine balance between plot and sex

tale_gunner

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My ongoing story, To Hell and Back Again, https://www.scribblehub.com/series/101956/to-hell-and-back-again/, is now posted up to chapter seven, or about 35k words so far. It was originally started on a site that prioritized sex first and the story second, but for me, it was always the plot that was most important. and the smut was just food coloring which is certainly more in-line with Scribble Hub's guidelines.

I would love to know what you think. Do my characters and my plot stand up on their own merits? Do the sex scenes contribute to a better story or do they seem gratuitous?

Your feedback is much appreciated.
 

Assurbanipal_II

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To be honest, if you even need to ask this kind of question you have already fallen through my quality roster by a very significant margin. But don't mind, I am just one of many. :blob_reach: And I generally don't read stories like yours out of principle.
 

Ral

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There is a very good reason why porn has little to no plot. Plot just gets in the way with porn and porn gets in the way of the plot.

The stories I've read where sex scenes works barely have any sex scenes in it (like only a couple or so) or the sex scenes have a strong narrative framework behind them. The books where sex scenes blends with plot well, for me, are those that are romantic in nature.

One book that, for me, manages to balance plot and sex is The Clan of the Cave Bear and the rest of the Earth Children's series.
 

Yiphen

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Ok. So if you really wanted to include sex, just roughly state what happened and move on. Or reference the action from a character at a later point in time.
Its pretty hard to make frequent sex in a novel work, especially because it turns away the people who want story and attracts the people who want sex. And now you have a porn novel.
Just want to say its my opinion btw. Didn't actually look up what happens when sex is included in a novel, just guessed.
 
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katie55

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There are tons of best seller novels that balance plot and sex. Sex is just a part of human interaction. What's so taboo about it? If there's sex in a book, it's porn? It just shows the standard of people's character by thinking so. I don't mind reading sex scenes in a book. It makes me relate to the characters. It makes them human to me. In fact, I find overly pure and restrained characters fake and fadeout scenes don't kill me, but they leave me dissatisfied. If you are scared of turning away readers this way, don't be. If the story is good with a great plot, readers will flock to you regardless of the R-rated scenes. If readers aren't comfortable with it, mark nsfw chapters, and they'll ignore those particular chapters. Write your own story. Don't try to satisfy everyone. You can't.

P.S: I gave a general opinion just now without seeing the genre. But now that I've seen it, your book has polygamy, so there will already be people expecting sex scenes from it from the get-go. You'll get bricked if you remove it, just saying. They should be reasoned though, if plot and story is going to be important to you. As long it's not all women brainlessly falling head over heels in love over a single man because of his face or something, the sex wouldn't detract readers from the story.
 
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LiquidCeil

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Tbh, I didn't read it. (sorry) het isn't my thing. I skimmed, and the writing seemed pretty coherent, but that is all I was gonna do. Because I disagree vehemently with the upstairs first few comments, who state that explicit sex doesn't have a place in serious literature.

@Assurbanipal_II ? I think your comment is rather...unnecessary as constructive criticism or even an opinion on the topic. Idk. I'm all bristly today. It's fine that the above people probably find sex to detract from the scene. But... if you don't write or read in that genre/tag, why are you commenting? People write about misogynist harems, violent gore, and all the other touchy stuff all the time and don't get flack. I honestly think that just having sex is way better than that teasy bullsh*t. If a book is supposed to be for adults, then adult material is included! Just because there is an abundance of content that might be considered sub-par out there, doesn't mean the genre, or sex as a tag in any genre is inherently bad or "low quality".

Like @katie55 said, (and btw, I agree with EVERYTHING she said!!), sex is just another part of being human. Being able to write it skillfully to incite emotion, the same way you do with a riveting action scene, a sorrowful mourning flashback, or a dramatic face-slap moment, shows mettle and talent! I work very very very hard to make sure my sex scenes are well blocked, well-articulated, and telling about the characters' psyches. They are not the story. But they complete the story in some very significant ways. Sex can help you get past your insecurities. Overcome trauma. Experience a loss of control. Sex scenes can tell the reader a facet about a character's personality that would otherwise be lost or underappreciated.

Sex can play a role that is very mild for some people, but for others, sex and sexuality shape a large part of the way they navigate the world. It is right and good, and IMO, wholesome to include sex (in the way I have stated above) to further your story. So I don't want people reading these posts and thinking that there is a consensus.

I am chiming in as a BL writer, so please mind the source. I think that every book is unique in how it manages sex as a plot device in the story. Obviously there is a difference between well-written smut (which exists, I promise!), and a well-executed book that can have explicit sex scenes that round out the story as a whole. There are many ways in which sex can play a dynamic role in one or more characters', or the story's development. Take books like the Kushiel series by Jaqueline Carey. Her works are masterfully written. Oh my god. Better than anything else I've read, wordcraft-wise, in over a year. I cried during one of her sex scenes. Intense and emotional. Or the whimsical use of sex as a vehicle for action and misadventure, utilized well by the author Carl Hiaasen. Or hell. The translated work by MXTX, The Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation. There would not be fans, or monetization without those (few) scenes. It is out there! Really! More people should write about sex in a normal, human way. We all f**king do it.
 
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Ral

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Just because it is part of human nature doesn't mean it should be always included in the narrative.

Also no one says that it is taboo or anything. You are not doing any favors for bringing that up.

And just because it is part of human nature doesn't mean we always want them to be in our stories nor does that mean it would always work to put them in.

That doesn't mean you can't write lots of sex in your story. There is a niche for anything. I mean, lots of people watch porn and those barely have any plot, if any.

Also, the original poster actually wants a review of the story. I skimmed the story and it is the kind of story where there is sex in every chapter. The author ask if the sex scenes works. You'll be the judge.
 
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Assurbanipal_II

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Tbh, I didn't read it. (sorry) het isn't my thing. I skimmed, and the writing seemed pretty coherent, but that is all I was gonna do. Because I disagree vehemently with the upstairs first few comments, who state that explicit sex doesn't have a place in serious literature.

@Assurbanipal_II ? I think your comment is rather...unnecessary as constructive criticism or even an opinion on the topic. Idk. I'm all bristly today. It's fine that the above people probably find sex to detract from the scene. But... if you don't write or read in that genre/tag, why are you commenting? People write about misogynist harems, violent gore, and all the other touchy stuff all the time and don't get flack. I honestly think that just having sex is way better than that teasy bullsh*t. If a book is supposed to be for adults, then adult material is included! Just because there is an abundance of content that might be considered sub-par out there, doesn't mean the genre, or sex as a tag in any genre is inherently bad or "low quality".

Like @katie55 said, (and btw, I agree with EVERYTHING she said!!), sex is just another part of being human. Being able to write it skillfully to incite emotion, the same way you do with a riveting action scene, a sorrowful mourning flashback, or a dramatic face-slap moment, shows mettle and talent! I work very very very hard to make sure my sex scenes are well blocked, well-articulated, and telling about the characters' psyches. They are not the story. But they complete the story in some very significant ways. Sex can help you get past your insecurities. Overcome trauma. Experience a loss of control. Sex scenes can tell the reader a facet about a character's personality that would otherwise be lost or underappreciated.

Sex can play a role that is very mild for some people, but for others, sex and sexuality shape a large part of the way they navigate the world. It is right and good, and IMO, wholesome to include sex (in the way I have stated above) to further your story. So I don't want people reading these posts and thinking that there is a consensus.

I am chiming in as a BL writer, so please mind the source. I think that every book is unique in how it manages sex as a plot device in the story. Obviously there is a difference between well-written smut (which exists, I promise!), and a well-executed book that can have explicit sex scenes that round out the story as a whole. There are many ways in which sex can play a dynamic role in one or more characters', or the story's development. Take books like the Kushiel series by Jaqueline Carey. Her works are masterfully written. Oh my god. Better than anything else I've read, wordcraft-wise, in over a year. I cried during one of her sex scenes. Intense and emotional. Or the whimsical use of sex as a vehicle for action and misadventure, utilized well by the author Carl Hiaasen. Or hell. The translated work by MXTX, The Grandmaster of Demonic Cultivation. There would not be fans, or monetization without those (few) scenes. It is out there! Really! More people should write about sex in a normal, human way. We all f**king do it.

Oh, you are mistaken on my behalf. All genres you listed are equally regarded as low quality by me, it is not just that a have a specific hate for related scenes. But the fact that you emphasize that you have sex scenes in such a blatant way - he could have told me nothing and let me as a reader discover them by simple reading, but instead he even emphasizes that the sex is apparently a selling point of the story "It was originally started on a site that prioritized sex first and the story second" - is an indicator that the story has already failed. After all, there is a reason that smutty literature didn't stand the test of time, but other ancient works did.
 
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LiquidCeil

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@Assurbanipal_II I interpreted that quote completely differently... what I thought he meant is the site that he published his work on prioritized sex, and that he felt that his work was more story with sex included. I gather the reason he changed platforms is that he wanted his work to be regarded more for its inherent story potential. And why he posted here ... he wanted to know if it didn't skirt the balance on ScribbleHub's no-PWP policy. I don't know. Not in his head.
 

Assurbanipal_II

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@Assurbanipal_II I interpreted that quote completely differently... what I thought he meant is the site that he published his work on prioritized sex, and that he felt that his work was more story with sex included. I gather the reason he changed platforms is that he wanted his work to be regarded more for its inherent story potential. And why he posted here ... he wanted to know if it didn't skirt the balance on ScribbleHub's no-PWP policy. I don't know. Not in his head.

I have a different take on this. If you are confident in your story as an author, then you don't even need to ask this question. ScribbleHub is quite open and not all too serious about its guidelines. Tale gunner should just continue writing as he seems to be sure that plot is more prevalent, and I believe.

So why do you ask this kind of question? People are not stupid and I believe that most of us are able to judge the quality of our works. For me, it means that his story on the very edge of can still be considered plot and that he himself has some doubts. Otherwise, you wouldn't ask for a second opinion.

He admits it even "Do my characters and my plot stand up on their own merits? Do the sex scenes contribute to a better story or do they seem gratuitous?"

As I said, I have no problem with sex per se, but if you ask others for permission, it is for me a sure sign that something is definitely wrong.
 

LiquidCeil

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I don't think that is necessarily true. While I try to be conscious of my own writing, especially when dealing with sensitive issues, even though I am sure I get it right, I still have that anxiety that someone is gonna leave burning shit on my doorstep for one stupid thing I might write. The internet is crazy. I personally love receiving feedback and affirmation from my beta readers, and I also take their criticism. That is why he is asking this type of question. Insecurity maybe? Affirmation as well? All writers deal with this. I can relate.
 

clover2218

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I have a different take on this. If you are confident in your story as an author, then you don't even need to ask this question.
Um, I don't think you meant it, but did you just imply writers don't need other's advice???

People are not stupid and I believe that most of us are able to judge the quality of our works.
If we were, then there'd be no need for beta readers, proofreaders, editors and stuff, would there? There's a stark difference between confidence and overconfidence. The difference between success and failure...

Writers, especially, if they want others to read their work, would generally try to get advice and feedback. What works, what doesn't work, what would be acceptable for a group of audience, even long time professionals keep themselves up to date by interacting with their peers and taking heed of their advice. Good luck finding an author who hasn't done so and succeeded. And yes, they try to seek advice on the matter of quality too, though the necessity of judging quality gradually lessen as they write more and more. But that's the case for professional authors...

This is a site for amateur writers, so what's wrong with lacking a little confidence and seeking advice as an amateur???

Again, this is entirely my opinion and I might be misinterpreting your intentions. If so, I apologize and you are free to ignore my comment...
 

Assurbanipal_II

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Um, I don't think you meant it, but did you just imply writers don't need other's advice???


If we were, then there'd be no need for beta readers, proofreaders, editors and stuff, would there? There's a stark difference between confidence and overconfidence. The difference between success and failure...

Writers, especially, if they want others to read their work, would generally try to get advice and feedback. What works, what doesn't work, what would be acceptable for a group of audience, even long time professionals keep themselves up to date by interacting with their peers and taking heed of their advice. Good luck finding an author who hasn't done so and succeeded. And yes, they try to seek advice on the matter of quality too, though the necessity of judging quality gradually lessen as they write more and more. But that's the case for professional authors...

This is a site for amateur writers, so what's wrong with lacking a little confidence and seeking advice as an amateur???

Again, this is entirely my opinion and I might be misinterpreting your intentions. If so, I apologize and you are free to ignore my comment...

I only say you compare apples with oranges. Point missed entirely.
 
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