Toilet thoughts: Redemption arc plot thread I'm trying to work out.

ConcubusBunny

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Hello my guys, gals and enby pals.

Okay, so I got some bad guys where some want to be good but then want to be redeemed into bad guys again and want to make their shift in character believable, but one of their friends tells them that they can't do that cause they aren't as bad as them.
I also want to redeem them as characters not change their alignment or their goals.
Also I noticed that some theorized that they were evil to try and reduce suffering, that was interesting to say the least, not my thoughts, but interesting to see I'll have to use that now.
So what are thoughts and no the friends aren't trying to kill or betray each other, I know some of you seem to have kinda fetish for that kinda thing.
What I'm looking for is some ideas on the way to make this plot point more believable.
 
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Viator

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Morality is ambiguous. If you want to make a reformed "bad guy" into a true bad guy again, ask yourself, "What are their primary motivations?" "What are they trying to preserve or protect?" Then you offer them a realistic choice, making it easier to accomplish their overall goal if they return to what is considered their bad guy habits, and making the good choice harder to maintain.

Most people find changing themselves difficult, and will go back to what they comfortably know if the consequences seem more bearable than what they are trying to change.
 

owotrucked

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So, you want a character going from bad to good to worse?

Random ideas from me:
- Character do bad stuff because the world treated them badly
- Through interacting with a nice person, the character starts to believe he could lean towards the good (for instance, everyone isn't bad, so they don't have to be bad)
- End up being reminded that the world is shit anyway (betrayed again?)

Another one:
- Be with the villain because they believe in the villain's vision of morally relative justice
- Start to question the good vs suffering they are bringing into the world
- Realize that the world can't be left alone and must be changed no matter how much blood must stain their hand

Don't you have any personal experience that can relate to that?

Just don't think in terms of villain, hero, good or bad. Everything is relative, there are no ultimate answer to everything because each individual incarnate a different answer. Fate pits them in the big stage of Life so that they defend their answer. A good end means the correct answer wins and brings positive change to the world. The correct answer doesn't have to be the protagonist's path.
 

ConcubusBunny

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So, you want a character going from bad to good to worse?

Random ideas from me:
- Character do bad stuff because the world treated them badly
- Through interacting with a nice person, the character starts to believe he could lean towards the good (for instance, everyone isn't bad, so they don't have to be bad)
- End up being reminded that the world is shit anyway (betrayed again?)

Another one:
- Be with the villain because they believe in the villain's vision of morally relative justice
- Start to question the good vs suffering they are bringing into the world
- Realize that the world can't be left alone and must be changed no matter how much blood must stain their hand

Don't you have any personal experience that can relate to that?

Just don't think in terms of villain, hero, good or bad. Everything is relative, there are no ultimate answer to everything because each individual incarnate a different answer. Fate pits them in the big stage of Life so that they defend their answer. A good end means the correct answer wins and brings positive change to the world. The correct answer doesn't have to be the protagonist's path.
Thank you owotruck, I actually was looking for a natural way to turn bad guy characters to good, then sorta bad again. Not villainous like the rest of their friends.
The second problem is how to redeem them in their friends eyes as trust worthy again.
 

Akivien

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Thank you owotruck, I actually was looking for a natural way to turn bad guy characters to good, then sorta bad again. Not villainous like the rest of their friends.
The second problem is how to redeem them in their friends eyes as trust worthy again.
Idea : You need someone willing to use them even if they aren't trustworthy
Just like those naive heros, he will get used by his party then eventually realize that his efforts are futile, then become bad once more
 
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Leyligne

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Every villain is the hero of their own story. Either shift in opinion so they‘re more acceptable, welding dogs to criminals not only deters crime, but lowers pet overpopulation, sort of thing. Most plots do “bigger bad showed up, let’s fight it together!” stuff. But you want something believable? Every villain has a purpose. Revenge, usually. What happens after they achieve their goal? They have a very particular set of skills. Skills they have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make that make them a nightmare to people like the new batch of villains. That sort of thing?
 

ConcubusBunny

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Every villain is the hero of their own story. Either shift in opinion so they‘re more acceptable, welding dogs to criminals not only deters crime, but lowers pet overpopulation, sort of thing. Most plots do “bigger bad showed up, let’s fight it together!” stuff. But you want something believable? Every villain has a purpose. Revenge, usually. What happens after they achieve their goal? They have a very particular set of skills. Skills they have acquired over a very long career. Skills that make that make them a nightmare to people like the new batch of villains. That sort of thing?
Huh, you know my villain characters don't really have a goal or purpose for being it's sorta their job.
Someone needs something stolen or people killed, you call them.
Their purpose to being villains is more of they weren't cut out for being good guys not that something so horrible happened and now they are bad
 

SailusGebel

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Huh, you know my villain characters don't really have a goal or purpose for being it's sorta their job.
Someone needs something stolen or people killed, you call them.
Their purpose to being villains is more of they weren't cut out for being good guys not that something so horrible happened and now they are bad
Before asking how to write this, you should think of what are those villains, and why they are villains. From what you wrote right now, I assume you want your bad guys, who are, in fact, NOT BAD, to turn good. Then you want them to turn back to being bad? Even though they weren't bad before? Well, I don't think I understood everything correctly, but their starting position isn't BAD guys. They are neutral. You want neutral, to turn good, and then from good to evil. And it's a somewhat easier task to do.
 

Leyligne

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Huh, you know my villain characters don't really have a goal or purpose for being it's sorta their job.
Someone needs something stolen or people killed, you call them.
Their purpose to being villains is more of they weren't cut out for being good guys not that something so horrible happened and now they are bad
So, ostracized by an uncaring world, they are forced into doing whatever they can to survive. Every bit as talented as so-called heroes, they stand toe to toe with them, fighting for money, fame and higher insurance deductibles. Greed and Pride, then? Envy? Just because you didn’t give them a raison d’etre doesn’t mean they don’t have one? And if they truly are just mercenaries, then it’s as simple as “you’re hired, we need your unique talents for this.” But for redemption? One job asked too much, souls are not inborn, they are earned through suffering. Over time, they'd come around kind of thing?
 

owotrucked

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Huh, you know my villain characters don't really have a goal or purpose for being it's sorta their job.
Someone needs something stolen or people killed, you call them.
Their purpose to being villains is more of they weren't cut out for being good guys not that something so horrible happened and now they are bad

From my vague memories of the movie Léon:
- bad: protag is assassin and kills a girl's parent
- somewhat good: takes her in and teaches her
- bad again: unfinished business and revenge catch up

You can have something like this:
-bad: start as thug
- somewhat good: a friend dies on the job/ gets a son or daughter/ gets a lover=> think they should play it straight for loved ones
-bad: straightlaced business is harder than anticipated. Corruption. Debts. Etc. Gotta make ends meet. => going back to thug but calmed down
 

SailusGebel

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From my vague memories of the movie Léon:
- bad: protag is assassin and kills a girl's parent
- somewhat good: takes her in and teaches her
- bad again: unfinished business and revenge catch up

You can have something like this:
-bad: start as thug
- somewhat good: a friend dies on the job/ gets a son or daughter/ gets a lover=> think they should play it straight for loved ones
-bad: straightlaced business is harder than anticipated. Corruption. Debts. Etc. Gotta make ends meet. => going back to thug but calmed down
If I remember everything correctly, he didn't turn bad at the end of the movie. Also, the girl's family was killed by Gary Oldman's character or something like that.
 

BearlyAlive

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Sounds like you want an anti-hero. Someone that isn't inherantly bad but uses evil to do good.

Make them leave the party over some ideological arguments like killing yes/no, then make the anti-hero assemble their own party (or let them work alone) and have them do things their way. Opens up the possibility for a "I know you're in there" fight, a "what have I done" post-clarity and redemption through whatever means you want.
 

ConcubusBunny

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Sounds like you want an anti-hero. Someone that isn't inherantly bad but uses evil to do good.

Make them leave the party over some ideological arguments like killing yes/no, then make the anti-hero assemble their own party (or let them work alone) and have them do things their way. Opens up the possibility for a "I know you're in there" fight, a "what have I done" post-clarity and redemption through whatever means you want.
I thought of this but it just doesn't fit for the cast, first I should say that anti hero doesn't fit on the main cast.
Could work for the supporting cast but not the main one.

I want them to get redeemed within the narrative without it seeming like I pulled the 'redemption arc card ' out of my ass.
The conflicting ideology could work, but I want them to also regret that choice.
Also totally leaving the group isn't an option. They are still romantically involved with other's, just not doing the villain deeds that the rest are doing.
 

K5Rakitan

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Think of reasons that someone might want to change political parties and go from there.
 
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