Transliteration of foreign titles, yay or nay?

BubbleC

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So, I’m thinking of writing a story set in your typical Japanese light novel high school. But I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to add the “-san” or “-chan” or “senpai” or “sensei” tags onto character names or not.

Is it cringe to read a story with someone addressing someone as Yamada-sensei or Kanzaki-san? Should I use the English Mr./Ms. for teachers but keep the “-chan’s” and “-san’s”? What about familial titles like “onii-chan?”

Personally I feel like these seniority and familial titles don’t really have a good equivalent in English. You don’t really address people other than with their name, a Mr./Ms., or sir/ma’am where I’m from. You also don’t address your brother as “older brother” in English either unlike other Eastern languages that have “gege,” “onii-chan,” or “hyung,” which could all serve as friendly addresses as well (well maybe not the onii-chan one, but still).

Seniority titles are even rarer in English. No one I know calls their senior in school by some special title, they just address each other by name.

I suppose the easiest way to circumvent this issue is by making a setting that isn’t in East Asia, but that kinda defeats the purpose of the question. I guess what I’m asking is what honorifics should be transliterated to English and what should be replaced with existing English vocabulary?
 
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AdLeto

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Just add both types, this way you don't have to worry which suffix is better
 

ArcanePunkster

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If you're writing a light novel you might as well do it. Japanese authors also do the same when it comes to foreign characters they create sometimes.

And it's not cringe or weeby to address someone by sensei or -chan and so on. It's just people often associate Japan for anime and manga so they put the two together.

At the end of the day if you want to write your story that way just do it. It's your own creative piece after all.
 

Reisinling

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And it's not cringe or weeby to address someone by sensei or -chan and so on. It's just people often associate Japan for anime and manga so they put the two together.
While I wouldn't find it cringe in a novel set in japan, some people would. And yes, it might be because of associations. I can clearly say however, that there are alternatives for using -san and -chan when translating, (here an article on ANN link ) and it's a matter of convention and preference rather than real necessity.

Also, I assume you meant it in text only, because if you are one of those people who used -san or -chan in real life.. then man, believe me even in Japanese classes or Judo classes I attended people cringed at that. Just don't, unless it's a joke. (to be fair- overusing english while in a country that doesn't speak english or other languages was also considered "cringe" in my experience)
 

ArcanePunkster

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While I wouldn't find it cringe in a novel set in japan, some people would. And yes, it might be because of associations. I can clearly say however, that there are alternatives for using -san and -chan when translating, (here an article on ANN link ) and it's a matter of convention and preference rather than real necessity.

Also, I assume you meant it in text only, because if you are one of those people who used -san or -chan in real life.. then man, believe me even in Japanese classes or Judo classes I attended people cringed at that. Just don't, unless it's a joke. (to be fair- overusing english while in a country that doesn't speak english or other languages was also considered "cringe" in my experience)
If we're talking about outside of Japan in real life then yeah depending on the person it could be cringe, however, in my experience of practicing Karate over the last 7 or so years using the term Sensei is very appropriate.

I would only find it annoying in web novel made by a western author if they literally used the suffix every time their name is mentioned. But as with a lot of suffixes they're only used either to convey respect to elders which is pretty much deep rooted tradition in Japan or in the use greetings.

After all, it comes down to how this person wants to right their story and in my opinion no one should force them to right in a certain way that pleases only them.
 

Muddy

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If you're looking for personal opinions: please don't. Every time I see original English writing overuse these I die a little inside.

That aside here's a couple of things to consider:
  • Think about your target audience. If you target full-on-weebs, go for it. If you want to branch out to a more general readership, then tolerance and understanding of these things will be lower. Scribblehub readership will be relatively tolerant, I think.
  • Keep in mind that while these things are most often used to express concepts that the English language can not express in a single word, the concepts themselves can still be expressed in English. They will only require longer phrasing, rewording, or re-contextualization to work. One reason they are prevalent in anime subs and manga/webnovel translations is the lack of the required space/time/effort for a more natural English translation.
  • Do not forget that good writing uses showing, instead of telling. Using onii-chan is no replacement for a description of actions that show affection, that depict how the speaker is younger than the addressed brother, or a proper tone of voice for the speaker. When you do your showing properly like that, onii-chan is no longer a linguistic necessity.
(Both of these last points are actually slightly better explained in the ANN article @Reisinling linked, so yeah, go read that instead. I supposed that's what happens if you take too long writing your post. :blob_sweat:)

Finally, unless you're looking to get rich, write for yourself. Write what makes you happy, instead of focussing on what other people want to read.
 

nosinkarma

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I have read few light novels and I only like sensei or other older respectful designations. I absolutely hated chan and San as they just made the sentences awkward to read. Chan and san only feel right if done with some comedic undertone.
 
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tounokenja

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If I see a novel that's supposed to mimic a setting taking place in Japan with Japanese characters and it uses conversationally unconventional western terms such as "big sis" or "elder sister" which no SIBLING in the western world would EVER use to address their sibling, merely to adhere to some misguided sense of thought that English has any kind of acceptable level of respect and deference built in to accommodate the mindset of an entire other culture outside of itself, I swear on the rating gods I'll go out of my way to 1* it and give a cruel non-constructive review that will have the author's finger hovering over the delete series button.

Is it weeb to do so? If you think it is, then you're unfit to write that kind of story.

Not borrowing and using honorifics properly kills the immersion factor. I understand there is a desire for grammatical correctness. But honorifics are integral, even necessary at times to lend to subtle clues from a culture which takes many passive measures when dealing with interpersonal relationships.

And most importantly, they are the epitome of "Aesthetic."

I'll include an example of what tickles me the most in reading about a relationship between two school-age kids, would be when those two people begin as -san to each other. Then one gathers feelings enough to change that to -chan/-kun, then eventually drops the honorific altogether. That's the evolution of love, without ever having to say it, just a subtle nuance that could be critically missed or cause a spastic response to it when caught!

For elder respect, knowing the difference between Haha-ue and Okaa-sama is important, as it could denote the type of strict upbringing or family structure one is a part of, and of course their colloquial equivalents such as Kaa-san or a hateful kuso baba. (shitty old hag, as said by angsty teens)

Don't worry about finding the English equivalents. Anyone who you would want to read your story or donate to it or buy it off of amazon when you get around to publishing it... they are LOOKING for the honorifics to be there. Anyone critical about using english equivalents are the same people saying dubs are better than subs, are the same people living at home jobless in their parents house who even if they could support you, wouldn't, and are small monkey-brained individuals who are easily triggered and can return nothing of value to you in exchange for the effort you have to put forth for them to shit on.

I'd rant more, but I think it's enough.

TL;DR: Eastern novel yes, Eastern honorifics yes, Western honorifics never-in-dialogue!
 

GDLiZy

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You're writing in English, so it's better to write the honorific in English too.
 

namio

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I don't think there really is a "which is better in English which is better in Japanese/insert language here" answer here. It's just the truth that there's no natural-sounding equivalents in English most of the time. Even translators can't agree a lot of the time-- being in several fan-translator groups, we just have an agreement which gets translated which doesn't. It depends on, for example, how important it is in creating nuance. In this one group of people, in our sci-fi project we translated all of (the very few) gege's and such. In another historical but lighthearted project, we turned "xiongdi" into "brother", but kept "dage/ge" because they're attached to individuals I think. In another another historical project, which is more political/imperial drama, we kept all of them in pinyin, translating only titles. They're too important in creating nuance to be diluted.

For me personally in my projects I use the honorifics and such when it's important to context. And of course, context is not just about plot, it also informs the level of formality (or informality) the character applies to a certain person or situation. When it's just a throwaway "excuse me" line, I just go with "this brother" or whatever. Given my character doesn't have to deal with complicated family trees, I also generalize uncles and aunts. If I'm writing a story where familial relationships and ties are more of a thing, then I definitely would bother more with whether they're maternal relatives or paternal. Since I'm not, I don't think I'm doing anyone any favors by hinting at further familial relationships I won't develop much, if at all.

I do admit that to a large degree I'm pretty fine with generalizing some familial terms than others because in my corner of Asia, the source of different "words" to call aunts and uncles and more distant relatives are only different languages-- my family, for one, is comprised of 3 different cultural groups. In essence I'm saying the same uncle/aunt be it paternal or maternal, it's only different in language. But it's safe to say that the Chinese translators I've worked with have also translated some familial terms into English and tacking on a TN on it, primarily because that particular word is so rarely used in the story it doesn't add anything. (think like, a cousin from your maternal grandmother's sister or something)
 

skillet

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I've seen works that melded in the '-san' suffixes/etc. really well into their English works... albeit them being fanfics, lol. Still, if done well, it'll be fine-- it's hard to say without actually seeing the finished products imo, because sometimes the suffixes+a certain writing style is what might turn people away.
So yeah, for me I'd say it depends. ahaha not helpful at all
 
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Deleted member 49654

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I, personally, don't like reading Japinglish. Tails, titles, and sound effects should be translated accordingly. Otherwise, it looks half-hearted.
I have read some translations where the English sentence ends with tails like: ne, yo, deshou, etc, and it is an ultimate turn-off. Why? When you can express their meaning and subtle nuances by using the correct sentence structure and context. Same goes for: san, chan, kun, senpai...I'd prefer to see Mr., Mrs., Miss, Senior., Junior, etc.
 

CadmarLegend

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I, personally, don't like reading Japinglish. Tails, titles, and sound effects should be translated accordingly. Otherwise, it looks half-hearted.
I have read some translations where the English sentence ends with tails like: ne, yo, deshou, etc, and it is an ultimate turn-off. Why? When you can express their meaning and subtle nuances by using the correct sentence structure and context. Same goes for: san, chan, kun, senpai...I'd prefer to see Mr., Mrs., Miss, Senior., Junior, etc.
But then... where's the Japanese feel?
 
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Deleted member 49654

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But then... where's the Japanese feel?
Well, if the story is about Takahiro Yuugo and his life in Toukyou, or about the black-haired, neet girl named Kyouko and her adventures in another world, I doubt you need the kun and chan to get the Japanese vibes. It is the author's job to portray the important elements, without using superficial stuff like Japanese words thrown here and there.
 
D

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So, I’m thinking of writing a story set in your typical Japanese light novel high school. But I’m not sure if it’s a good idea to add the “-san” or “-chan” or “senpai” or “sensei” tags onto character names or not.

Is it cringe to read a story with someone addressing someone as Yamada-sensei or Kanzaki-san? Should I use the English Mr./Ms. for teachers but keep the “-chan’s” and “-san’s”? What about familial titles like “onii-chan?”

Personally I feel like these seniority and familial titles don’t really have a good equivalent in English. You don’t really address people other than with their name, a Mr./Ms., or sir/ma’am where I’m from. You also don’t address your brother as “older brother” in English either unlike other Eastern languages that have “gege,” “onii-chan,” or “hyung,” which could all serve as friendly addresses as well (well maybe not the onii-chan one, but still).

Seniority titles are even rarer in English. No one I know calls their senior in school by some special title, they just address each other by name.

I suppose the easiest way to circumvent this issue is by making a setting that isn’t in East Asia, but that kinda defeats the purpose of the question. I guess what I’m asking is what honorifics should be transliterated to English and what should be replaced with existing English vocabulary?
If you ask me, then I would say it is better to use less of these foreign titles.

Because:

  • It's not even translated from Japanese.
  • Second, it's showcasing your weeb-ness, so most of the reader would also feel cringe about it.
  • Third, I read this story(which somehow got deleted by the author), I recall the title was Bluestone Castle or something.
The story was revolving around a man who got reincarnated into his favorite game, which was a Japanese game. He becomes one of the side characters which was briefly mentioned in the game. The MC was not Japanese; the author was not Japanese(obviously), but there's a lot of cringe-worthy titles like 'nee-san', 'imouto', and all that fancy Jap subculture stuff. I am fine with that because I love reading translated Japanese light novels which keeps a lot of those titular aspects. But, the problem is ..., again, the MC is not Japanese, the author is not Japanese ..., and the setting is not in Japan! It's pretty creepy, it was like the author trying to shout out loud that he want to be a Japanese person or something.
  • You should not focus on something like that. Those title imported from Far East literature is kinda annoying if it's translated into English. Just recalling how many times I stumble upon 'Senior Apprentice Brother' or '-teikouheika' in the story is kinda taxing my brain.
 
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