Tribal mentality

Help or nah?

  • Help

    Votes: 10 66.7%
  • Nah

    Votes: 5 33.3%

  • Total voters
    15

KiraMinoru

Untitled Generic Member
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Jun 22, 2020
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I don't doubt your sincerity and I'm well aware of horrors of the modern healthcare system, even if you got a private caretaker there would be the chance of encountering a bad actor. That's a fair point.

I still just don't get why anyone would go to war for the hell of it, and while I do doubt your sincerity in that case, I've met people that joined up for the express reason of getting a government license to kill people. So I guess it's not so much an impossible stance as an absurd one.

I was about to talk about the willingness to accept government assistance with some arguments about taxes and social contracts and compensation for services not making it seem so one-sided and hand-holdy as people would believe, but that's a matter of personal perspective, and it's far off topic.
Taking government assistance is a slippery slope. It heightens your dependance on them. For every decision you make thereafter, you will weigh that debt to them in your mind and it will greatly impact the decisions you make. I don’t want to owe them anything which is why it’s better to not take anything from them to begin with.

Society has become so complacent with taking on debt it’s ridiculous. Nobody‘a satisfied with simply living within their means anymore.

As for people who join the military, there are those who also do it because they genuinely want to help others even at the cost of dirtying their own hands, not to simply kill. There are people out there that should be killed. Those who live in third world countries would definitely tell you that.

It’s only people in rich first world countries who’ve had things too good for too long and have forgotten that. The idea that people shouldn’t be killed no matter what is insane. That’s exactly what the worst of people who do the worst things imaginable want people to think so they can continue to live if they ever get caught.
 

Deeprotsorcerer

Skeletal Eromancer
Joined
Aug 24, 2021
Messages
346
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Taking government assistance is a slippery slope. It heightens your dependance on them. For every decision you make thereafter, you will weigh that debt to them in your mind and it will greatly impact the decisions you make. I don’t want to owe them anything which is why it’s better to not take anything from them to begin with.

Oh. Oh, now I see. That's a very interesting take on it, one that I was vaguely aware of, but haven't really considered. It's valid.

To me, such programs are transactional in the same way a work order is. You, as a citizen pay taxes to subscribe to the benefits of the state, and in turn, contribute to the state with tax money, or in the case of the armed services, with your life, time, and capacity to wage war on the state's enemies.

The problem is that whether you want to be involved in such a transaction or not, if you've enjoyed secure borders, public education, public transport, or any of the million other state-run services, you've already gotten yourself involved. In this case, I wouldn't consider the assistance as a debt owed, rather a transaction made with a price both sides agreed on (indeed, you would have more of a choice here than in other citizen-state transactions). Your service would pay for the care your mother would receive.


As for people who join the military, there are those who also do it because they genuinely want to help others even at the cost of dirtying their own hands, not to simply kill. There are people out there that should be killed. Those who live in third world countries would definitely tell you that.

It’s only people in rich first world countries who’ve had things too good for too long and have forgotten that. The idea that people shouldn’t be killed no matter what is insane. That’s exactly what the worst of people who do the worst things imaginable want people to think so they can continue to live if they ever get caught.

Not making an argument against there being truly despicable people in the world who won't stop being evil no matter how much you ask nicely, it's just that you said joining a war would be more interesting; I was responding to that thrust specifically, of course, it's my fault for assuming the "interesting" part would be the violence rather than the travel and public relief efforts you'd be involved in depending on which military you joined.
 
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KiraMinoru

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Oh. Oh, now I see. That's a very interesting take on it, one that I was vaguely aware of, but haven't really considered.

To me, such programs are transactional in the same way a work order is. You, as a citizen pay taxes to subscribe to the benefits of the state, and in turn, contribute to the state with tax money, or in the case of the armed services, with your life, time, and capacity to wage war on the state's enemies.

The problem is that whether you want to be involved in such a transaction or not, if you've enjoyed secure borders, public education, public transport, or any of the million other state-run services, you've already gotten yourself involved. In this case, I wouldn't consider the assistance as a debt owed, rather a transaction made with a price both sides agreed on (indeed, you would have more of a choice here than in other citizen-state transactions). Your service would pay for the care your mother would receive.




Not making an argument against their being truly despicable people in the world who won't stop being evil no matter how much you ask nicely, it's just that you said joining a war would be more interesting; I was responding to that thrust specifically.
Joining a war would be more interesting. You get to experience all sorts of different emotions and make much more meaningful, deeper, long lasting connections with others by experiencing life and death with them. You experience both happiness and sadness, despair and joy. Compared to the shallow state of society in first world countries where everything is a clock work process with only efficiency in mind, it’s a rollercoaster.

Life is all about experiencing and living through those ups and downs. They’re what make people feel fulfilled and feel as if they lived a life with substance to it.

As for stuff like income taxes for example, you do realize before the world war they weren’t even a thing, right? They were originally supposed to be a measure to help pull the country out of debt after the world war but they ended up sticking around.

It stuck around because people fell down that slippery slope and now it’s just taxes galore everywhere you look. Just look at that debt now, it’s through the bloody roof despite all of the different taxes that exist and it’s surely never going to be paid off. There’s a tax for just about anything and everything yet society is still straddled with this crippling unsustainable debt that’s spiralling out of control.

Society could have functioned just fine without all those taxes. The money would have been used much more efficiently too. Now you’ve got governments just throwing money at whatever they want wasting it. We don’t pay taxes willingly, we pay taxes because we’re forced to or else the government will come for us. So no, it’s not transactional, taxes are held over our heads as a means to ensure we are obedient and can be controlled.

If we stick our head up and refuse to pay those taxes, the government will make an example out of us to scare others from doing the same.


Personally I hardly even use roads and I haven’t used healthcare even once in my life. I’d rather die before using healthcare too. I’m fine with dying and have no qualms about it. If it’s my time to die, then so be in. Rather than living life crippled or disabled, I’d rather accept my death. So no, I’m not going to be thankful for the services the governments provide because I don’t want them. A difficult life wrought with hardships is a more fulfilling one as far as I’m concerned. I’d rather grow my own shit on a farm, raise animals, etc.

Personally I hardly even use roads and I haven’t used healthcare even once in my life. I wouldn’t mind just walking to places since I’d stay fit and in shape that way in a natural fashion. I’d rather die before using healthcare too. I’m fine with dying and have no qualms about it. If it’s my time to die, then so be in. Rather than living life crippled or disabled, I’d rather accept my death. So no, I’m not going to be thankful for the services the government provide because I don’t want them. A difficult life wrought with hardships is a more fulfilling one as far as I’m concerned. I’d rather grow my own shit on a farm, raise animals, hunt/forage for food, sterilize water myself, etc.

It sounds primitive, but you’d live at your own pace and always have something productive to do with your time.

As for the internet, I think I’d be happier without it. I don’t even play video games these days and honestly there’s nothing online that I really care about.
 
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I'd probably help with the immediate conflict and hear them out afterwards. if it's something I agree with then maybe, otherwise no - unless I'm getting paid some phat stacks. >x
 

BenJepheneT

Light Up Gold - Parquet Courts
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Jul 14, 2019
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Unfortunately, there's a much higher price to pay for inaction than action in most cases. At least thinking about it ahead of time will make it easier to react if it does end up happening at some point. :blob_awkward:
man i'll take my chances

I used to respect that guy. Kind of ashamed of myself. A former lefty waking up and realizing his "comrades" are full of shit? Awesome. But then he....
"mrDickenBalls says 'hey, jack-"

That's how he gets to you
Friendly, entertaining and with just the right degree of lunacy to seem harmless.


i also enjoy how im a perpetual teenager in here. forever 16 just took a whole new meaning to me.
 
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Varstark

Well-known member
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May 1, 2020
Messages
112
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If your *insert someone you care and love* is now at war, literally about to take a glock out and double tap type, with another person/ faction, would you help out or nah?

Not going political here and also, this applies to RL so most of the times people will take a nonchalent (neutral or neutralish) stance and only start to move when they themselves are affected.

Haven't went and read the books CGP Grey intro-ed and probably will not.

Also, give me the reason for your vote. Thanks.
Questions for this hypothetical scenario:
1. Is there a draft?
2. Is "me" a man or a woman?
3. I assume this means that we were born, raised and live in the same country and culture.

Also, there is nothing in this world that isn't political. What you're asking for is 'political ambiguity' at best.

If I'm a man on the draft, there's not much I can do but be just one more number on a general's spreadsheet. I don't have much man-points in the traditional masculine fields like engineering, martial arts, war, etc. I'm a bit creative, and I'm somewhat good at trying to solve things on the fly, but I've never been in a live gunfight before. My attempts at helping this loved one will be, quite frankly, useless, unless I survive the first spray of bullets and manage to find myself climbing the ranks of battlefield promotion with leadership skills I've never tested before. And if I do, I can't be seen showing favouritism to a single soldier who is coincidentally my brother or a friend.

If I'm a woman, and thus exempted from whatever draft is on, my options are a bit broader. I can start activism with my artsy schizmos and the social lube that being a woman has to raise funds for the war industry. Raising money to construct more ships, more planes, more tanks, better versions of them. Slogans, easy-to-digest propaganda one-liners and pictures. I can write to him as much as possible to keep his morale up and give him incentive to live and make it back. Wouldn't send him any material gifts, because I know how shit the barracks are, so the letters will do, and words make a better tool anyway.

If there is no draft, meaning the nation isn't in any form of crisis? Hell fucking no. I'll tell him to leave that shit place as fast as he can. What the hell is he even doing there? Come back, eat some good pie in the local eatery, and go nail some hot chick or whatever instead of greasing some slimy politician or MIC CEO's bank account with his own blood. War is old men talking, young men dying, and weapons industries getting fatter and fatter.
 

SternenklarenRitter

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Messages
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While most humans have a powerful instinctive loyalty to their genetic relatives, I personally feel this instinct so weakly that the very idea of family (in the meaning of inherently valuing genetic relatives) seems illogical and dangerous to me. Certainly I feel the influence in other people's behavior, few other than my family will put up with my shenanigans, even if I think of them as little different than strangers. This may sound like it would lead me down the road of psychopathy, but instead I feel attached to every person in the world. Every human feels like a long lost sibling when I interact with them. How could I take a side and help one of the persons I cherish kill another? Aside from that, I don't much understand the political inflection of this thread. Isn't it supposed to be about family and such?
 

LordJoyde

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Jan 3, 2019
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I see, I see. If they're doing something bad to them, you would help. I would to.

But what I'm interested in is if you would do something bad to someone your friend was targeting simply because they asked you to. Which could, of course, be interpreted in all manners of bad faith, but that's what I feel like the general thrust of the OP's question lies in.
This might put me in a naïve light, but the answer is still yes.

Reason being that I am a heavily antisocial person to whom relationships are a thing of convenience, as easily thrown aside as outdated equipment. The only time I would not help is if I decide that this friend is more trouble than they're worth.
 
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