Writing [Tutorial] The Secret to Proper Paragraphing and Dialogue

Biggest-Kusa-Out-There

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Just because something was published before does not mean that current publishers will accept it.


Publishers toss Booker winners into the reject pile​

The Sunday Times -- January 01, 2006
Jonathan Calvert and Will Iredale

THEY can’t judge a book without its cover. Publishers and agents have rejected two Booker prize-winning novels submitted as works by aspiring authors.

One of the books considered unworthy by the publishing industry was by V S Naipaul, one of Britain’s greatest living writers, who won the Nobel prize for literature.

The exercise by The Sunday Times draws attention to concerns that the industry has become incapable of spotting genuine literary talent.

Typed manuscripts of the opening chapters of Naipaul’s In a Free State and a second novel, Holiday, by Stanley Middleton, were sent to 20 publishers and agents.

None appears to have recognised them as Booker prizewinners from the 1970s that were lauded as British novel writing at its best. Of the 21 replies, all but one were rejections.

Only Barbara Levy, a London literary agent, expressed an interest, and that was for Middleton’s novel.

She was unimpressed by Naipaul’s book. She wrote: “We . . . thought it was quite original. In the end though I’m afraid we just weren’t quite enthusiastic enough to be able to offer to take things further.”

The rejections for Middleton’s book came from major publishing houses such as Bloomsbury and Time Warner as well as well-known agents such as Christopher Little, who discovered J K Rowling.

The major literary agencies PFD, Blake Friedmann and Lucas Alexander Whitley all turned down V S Naipaul’s book, which has received only a handful of replies.

Critics say the publishing industry has become obsessed with celebrity authors and “bright marketable young things” at the expense of serious writers.

Most large publishers no longer accept unsolicited manuscripts from first-time authors, leaving the literary agencies to discover new talent.

Many of the agencies find it hard to cope with the volume of submissions. One said last week that she receives up to 50 manuscripts a day, but takes on a maximum of only six new writers a year.

Last week, leading literary figures expressed surprise that Naipaul, in particular, had not been talent spotted. Doris Lessing, the author who was once rejected by her own publishers when she submitted a novel under a pseudonym, said: “I’m astounded as Naipaul is an absolutely wonderful writer.”

Andrew Motion, the poet laureate, who teaches creative writing, said: “It is surprising that the people who read it (Naipaul’s book) didn’t recognise it. He is certainly up there as one of our greatest living writers.”

While arguing that the best books would still always find a publisher, he added: “We need to keep the publishers on their toes as good books are as rare as hens’ teeth.”

Middleton, 86, whose books have a devoted following, wasn’t surprised. “People don’t seem to know what a good novel is nowadays,” he said. Naipaul, 73, said the “world had moved on” since he wrote the novel. He added: “To see that something is well written and appetisingly written takes a lot of talent and there is not a great deal of that around.”

“With all the other forms of entertainment today there are very few people around who would understand what a good paragraph is.”

All this does is promote gatekeeping, even as other creators praise the manuscript(?).
This says more about the publishers than the author, so it's a "Well, seems like editors/publishers aren't really that useful anymore."
Your comment kind of proves my point that editors/publishers are detached from audiences and authors alike, and are by no measure to be followed as a standard because they're more focused on other aspects of selling a product than telling a story. Now, if your objective is to make money, then sure... appeal to the common denominator and find yourself forgotten in 10 years time.

I mean it is the AAA industry no matter the entertainment. The reason we get 100 battle royal clones, 100 magic school clones after harry potter, 100 twilight clones, 100 hunger games clones, etc. Because major player stick to what sells, before something else is cool and then they all crowd to it...
LostLibrarian said it better in their comment.

Publishers are a capitalist cog, not enablers of creativity. Why should we, authors in a website about creativity, care or worry about publishers while we write for free? Some have a patreon, some like me have a Ko-fi. We let the readers decide if our story is worth their time, not a clueless third party.
 

OokamiKasumi

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Passive voice isn't always telling. And I am not sure why it is a huge no-no at all.
It's a huge no-no for Beginner writers because it's a very, very difficult habit to break if those writers want to eventually submit to a publisher.

On a site like this one, or if they decide to self-publish with Patreon or Amazon, it's no big deal if they write in Passive Voice because the only people they have to please are their readers.

"In the afternoon haze, the sun was stalked by the clouds"
-- is a passive voice and it is fairly descriptive. moreover it allows me to put the accent on the sun while maintaining its 'vulnerable' position. Saying that something like that in a complete no-no in English would be a disservice.

I would disagree with you hard here.
I clearly need to post an essay on Passive voice vs Active voice.

Excerpt:

From Phil Phantom’s: “Guide to Writing Good Trash"
I know, you hate to think of your writing as trash, but if done well, others will. If done poorly, your magnificent creation is just crap, shit, or garbage. Excellent trash can rise to the level of good shit, but you and your good shit will never be studied in English Lit. As for riches, sure, but it helps if you are wealthy when you start.​

ACTIVE Voice - the Voice of GOD

In the writing world we have two kinds of voice: Passive and Active.

Passive voice is for wimps, fairies, and limp-wristed momma's boys.

Active voice is the voice of power, action, and drive. Active voice knocks you on your ass, kicks you in the balls, rips out your heart, shows the bleeding pumper to you, then spits in your fucking face while squeezing you to death.

Guess which voice we write in?

That's right.

Active voice is direct, to the point, no nonsense, cut and dry.

God speaks in the active voice. God didn't say, "Thy neighbors wife shall not be coveted by you." Hell no, He said, "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife." If God wrote the Ten Commandments in the passive voice, they would sound like the Ten Suggestions. When He writes like a God, you know you'd best not covet your neighbor's ass, neither.

When you write in the active voice, the subject of your sentence does the acting. The subject precedes an action verb. The English language is full of rich action verbs. We even have nouns that serve duty as action verbs - finger, for one.

You tell me. Which is stronger?

Mary was fingered by John.
or...?
John fingered Mary.

ScribbleHub is exactly the place to play with your ability to write. you are free to publish your chapters and the worst you will get from it would be confused comments or perhaps a drop in readership. And if you are relying on patreons then you are technically a professional author then anyway.
No argument here.

Saying you can't break the rules is almost like saying you can't doodle and experiment with different styles on a free picture hosting sites.

Granted you shouldn't dive in without being ready like you wouldn't just dive into a free community pool. start slow get your bearings and then, once you feel ready - try new things.

Darlin' did you forget this part at the opening of the essay?

DISCLAIMER: This is how I was taught to structure dialogue for publication purposes -- by my editors.​
If you don't want to do it this way -- Don't. (Less competition for me.)​
I am absolutely not going to insist on anyone following any rules. I'm just stating that they are out there, and certain people may expect them to be followed.

Whether or not you choose to is your decision.


I listen to manuscripts before I look at them, so that doesn't even enter into whether I accept something or not. It can all be fixed later, if needed.

Agreed. The words on the page can all be adjusted.

Creativity, on the other hand, the ability to come up with solid characters and an interesting world for them to live in --is either there, or it's not.

I have read fan-fiction stories that were better written and more compelling than certain published novels.
 
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LostLibrarian

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From Phil Phantom’s: “Guide to Writing Good Trash"
Honest question: Who's that? Your link throws me a "site not found" and google just finds him as an erotica author who was (kinda) succesful, a list of pen names gives me no result on amazon (no idea whether those are right or wrong), and that's it. Going by that, he seems to be a half-decent niche-author. Don't know whether there is more.

So honest question: why is he a person of authority that should be quoted on passive vs active voice? Because he thinks his sex-scenes sound active better than Tolkien's prose? Not against the point in itself. But "one author" sounds a bit weak.

I could argue with "one random university":

4. Myth: You should never use the passive voice.​

While the passive voice can weaken the clarity of your writing, there are times when the passive voice is OK and even preferable.

So nothing against it, but "author X said..." is the same style of argument as the "But old author Y did..." you argued against. Even more so, because the parts you quote are about "action", which yeah, should more often than not be written active. But action is also only one of many parts of a story...
 

OokamiKasumi

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This is too similar to the music industry.
The publishing industry is damned near identical to the music industry. In fact musician and author contracts are frighteningly similar in content and percentages.

Look at the examples given, the people you quote as 'they set the rule' broke it themselves. Best sellers didn't follow these rules, genre defining fictions didn't follow these rules. None of those rules. You have floating heads on Tolkien, Dostoyevskiy, Gabriel Garcia Marquez, John Wyndham, E.M. Foster, and many, many more. They are known for their works everywhere because they had the liberty of not following these rules to the T, or not at all. Not because of their styles per se, but because of their stories.

If you say you don't read works that don't follow these rules, I'll go ahead and assume you haven't read anything from before 2010.
LOL! I was first published in 1980, while I was still in high school. I had to write that story on a typewriter because word processors and PCs hadn't been invented yet, nor had the Internet. (I still hate typewriters to this very day.) My editor was my first introduction to the fact that writing actually had rules beyond basic high school grammar.

[2010] is when people began preaching 'show, don't tell' as if it holds any water what.so.ever. Previous works make use of passive voice in ways that would disgust you, apparently.
Dude, Mark Twain was published considerably earlier than 2010.

1631233856765.png


Also, did you miss this at the beginning of the essay?
DISCLAIMER: This is how I was taught to structure dialogue for publication purposes -- by my editors.​
If you don't want to do it this way -- Don't. (Less competition for me.)​

If you want to break rules, break them! I won't stop you. Go for it! Be my guest!

I'm just letting people know that there ARE rules, and certain people may expect them to be followed. What you choose to do about it is your business, not mine.
 

Snusmumriken

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It's a huge no-no for Beginner writers because it's a very, very difficult habit to break if those writers want to eventually submit to a publisher.

On a site like this one, or if they decide to self-publish with Patreon or Amazon, it's no big deal if they write in Passive Voice because the only people they have to please are their readers.


I clearly need to post an essay on Passive voice vs Active voice.

Excerpt:

From Phil Phantom’s: “Guide to Writing Good Trash"
I know, you hate to think of your writing as trash, but if done well, others will. If done poorly, your magnificent creation is just crap, shit, or garbage. Excellent trash can rise to the level of good shit, but you and your good shit will never be studied in English Lit. As for riches, sure, but it helps if you are wealthy when you start.​

ACTIVE Voice - the Voice of GOD

In the writing world we have two kinds of voice: Passive and Active.

Passive voice is for wimps, fairies, and limp-wristed momma's boys.

Active voice is the voice of power, action, and drive. Active voice knocks you on your ass, kicks you in the balls, rips out your heart, shows the bleeding pumper to you, then spits in your fucking face while squeezing you to death.

Guess which voice we write in?

That's right.

Active voice is direct, to the point, no nonsense, cut and dry.

God speaks in the active voice. God didn't say, "Thy neighbors wife shall not be coveted by you." Hell no, He said, "Thou shalt not covet they neighbor's wife." If God wrote the Ten Commandments in the passive voice, they would sound like the Ten Suggestions. When He writes like a God, you know you'd best not covet your neighbor's ass, neither.

When you write in the active voice, the subject of your sentence does the acting. The subject precedes an action verb. The English language is full of rich action verbs. We even have nouns that serve duty as action verbs - finger, for one.

You tell me. Which is stronger?

Mary was fingered by John.
or...?
John fingered Mary.
Again you aren't listening to what I am saying. I did not say that people should write all in a passive voice. I said that categorically excluding it is not a good rule to follow.

And that reference isn't really a good example. It is like saying hey I know you want to read about strong and manly MC! write strong and manly MC - remove all these wimpy girls and have him jerk himself! it will be very manly.

Passive voice is like a shadow to the light of the active voice. Stating that it has no place in literature is plain wrong. You can always say that new authors should avoid it until they know what they are doing. Not outright exclude it.
Darlin' did you forget this part at the opening of the essay?

DISCLAIMER: This is how I was taught to structure dialogue for publication purposes -- by my editors.​
If you don't want to do it this way -- Don't. (Less competition for me.)​
I am absolutely not going to insist on anyone following any rules. I'm just stating that they are out there, and certain people may expect them to be followed.

Whether or not you choose to is your decision.
I didn't forget. But I also noticed the tone of your 'suggestion' which does indirectly insist on following it by the way "you don't have to do it this way - stay a loser". I would have no issues with you writing this as a general recommendation from you. What I was pointing out is that you are setting it as strong advice of a professional that should be absolutely taken into account. Yet the advice is very broad and directed toward more of the lower barrel of authors who are likely to gain from this advice than lose. And for many authors, it would actually cause issues instead of helping them out because of its shotgun approach.
 
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Thank you college professor. Most things already know.

Now just gotta get out of my laziness to write or hobby more.
 

OokamiKasumi

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... I ... remember quite a few authors questioning many style rules that were created over the years. Sanderson quite likely the most famous on this forum, especially the one about not using dialogue tags.

I'm just torn between "these people have shit ton of experience, they quite likely know better" and "these people are writing for completely different audience and purpose, it might not work here."

Look at it this way, every time you learn something new about writing you are adding it to your Writer's Toolbox. As it is with any toolbox, some tools are required for some jobs, while that same tool may be useless on a different job. For example, some jobs need a hammer, and other jobs take a pair of pliers.

No one tool is useful for every job.

So! Add my advice to your Writer's Toolbox, and if you come across a job that needs this particular set of tools to complete it -- pull these tools out and apply them as needed. ☕
Well, I agree with this, mostly. When it comes to the 'remove said' part, I think that fits in a short dialogue exchange.
However, in my story there are scenes 3k words long where a few characters just talk to each other, it gets quite hard to keep showing there. Character X can't be biting that piece of cake for four paragraphs straight and Character Y certainly wouldn't change his facial expression every time he says a new piece of dialogue. Perhaps this is just a lack of skill in my part, but I find it easier to just put X spoke, X questioned, X responded etc.

LOL! Trying to write a long dialogue scene without using 'said' is Not easy, let me tell you... However practice makes...better. Be glad you don't have to follow the rigid standards I do -- be very glad.
 
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LostLibrarian

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Dude, Mark Twain was published considerably earlier than 2010.

1631233856765.png
And used passive voice on the first page of Tom Sawyer.
In fact, his books are full of passive voice. Just going through the first third of Tom Sawyer for fun and because it's free out there.

102 passive sentences in his first 23k word. (First 10 chapters).


Because the one thing you don't mention is that Mark Twain lived 150 years ago. You argue that "works written 50, 75 years ago won't hold up to modern publishing", but then you quote Mark Twain on a rule, that since then has changed its meaning a lot. As said before, the origin of "Show, don't tell" wasn't active vs passive voice. It was even more about "describing details instead of summarizing it".
Chekhov: "Don't tell me the moon is shining; show me the glint of light on broken glass."
Even the active "The moon shines" wasn't showing. It's about describing details and letting the readers decide.

In fact, Twain also described more, when you should tell instead of show: "In the planting of characterization, motivation and relationship: don't 'talk it,' ' show it.' Express these things in acted scenes, not in narrative or description."

Twain was never about "no passive voice". He was about creating a picture with words and letting the readers decide what they see. And that is something, you also can create with a mix of passive and active verbs...

A catchy quote on a nice picture is cool... but it often also doesn't tell the entire story.



Again: nothing against the core point of yours towards modern publishing. Those who want to be a cog in a system, better look like a cog. It's that easy. But when you argue that Tolkien would fail modern publishing, Twain and his writing, as well as a lot of his views on writing, would do so as well...
 

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Biggest-Kusa-Out-There

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The publishing industry is damned near identical to the music industry. In fact musician and author contracts are frighteningly similar in content and percentages.




LOL! I was first published in 1980, while I was still in high school. I had to write that story on a typewriter because word processors and PCs hadn't been invented yet, nor had the Internet. (I still hate typewriters to this very day.) My editor was my first introduction to the fact that writing actually had rules beyond basic high school grammar.


Dude, Mark Twain was published considerably earlier than 2010.

View attachment 9631

Also, did you miss this at the beginning of the essay?
DISCLAIMER: This is how I was taught to structure dialogue for publication purposes -- by my editors.​
If you don't want to do it this way -- Don't. (Less competition for me.)​

If you want to break rules, break them! I won't stop you. Go for it! Be my guest!

I'm just letting people know that there ARE rules, and certain people may expect them to be followed. What you choose to do about it is your business, not mine.
I've read Mark Twain, he's no standard, tho. He was a U.S. writer, not a global English authority. Authors on this website are from other countries as well. I don't come and raise Pablo Neruda (Also American, from Chile. America is not a country, it's a continent. Use U.S. Citizen when outside the U.S. or on the internet. That's a global standard more solid than what a dead dude said 200 years ago. Or don't! Less people will take you seriously!) and demand Poetry to be written by his standards, because those standards - Mark Twain's, and Pablo's - are both outdated and not a solid standard by any means if you give contemporary successful fictions a closer look.

When you mention competition in your disclaimer, it's horribly patronizing, and lends itself to be absolutely clowned on. Anybody could be a witty fuck and say "Sure, enjoy competition at the bottom of the barrel." Or some stupid shit like that. The statement itself is ignored because it's demeaning and holds no weight when you bring forth these obtuse ideas about writing that you make my bussines by labeling anything outside of your standard to be 'bad writing'. It's not an attack against my person, but it's a statement very few will agree with and that many will point out as not factual by giving you plenty of examples that disprove it. Because the idea itself is not objectively correct when under the magnifying glass.

If these standards were so solid, so hardcore that it would justify the essay, sure. But it's not, unfortunately, by any measure. If I go to a bookstore and buy ten books from each genre (all in english), I will find in at least 8 of each genre that these rules are not followed, because actually successful fictions do not lend themselves to the standard of an editor/publisher. With this evidence, your statements lose value and depth. I have around 37 books in English, around double in Spanish (my first language), and about ten in German. I will find 'said' in them. From 1605 (Don Quijote de la Mancha, and I have the old Spanish version, too), onwards.

Yes, a lot of points you bring up are immensely useful and helps in writing better by pointing them out, but the unnecessarily absolutist way in which you display them detracts a lot, especially the examples.
 

OokamiKasumi

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In English, please give us two or three examples of how to combine dialogues and actions.

I would like to have some references to check with. By the way, do not throw textbook pictures at us. It's hard to learn anything from that.

Just use your own words.

Uh... I did, in the essay.
-- However, for you I will copy-paste some translated lines to show you exactly what I mean about lines of dialogue cut away from the actions they belong with. Also, ellipses abuse.

One big Example from:

I DON’T WANT THIS REINCARNATION

Language : Korean
Author(s) : 차선
Original Publisher Bullet Publishing

DISCLAIMER: This is FAN translated, not Professionally translated! However, this example is not meant to trash the translators! I happen to be very fond of this novel, and I have absolute respect for the hard work these translators do out of pure love for the books they translate. Please be respectful!

ORIGINAL:
Copy-pasted straight from the page.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EPISODE 1. I opened my eyes

I thought hard.

Where the hell am I?

I looked around the dazzling room and slowly got up. After carefully examining the room’s interior, which was sparkling so much that my eyes hurt, I put my hand on my stomach reflexively.

“What……”

I calmly got out of bed and looked over my body. The scars that filled the whole body had disappeared, and my field of vision was slightly lowered.

“What the fuck is this…”

The scars disappeared and I became shorter. Secondly, I couldn’t see my precious muscles. Every time I took off my shirt, the proud abs made people around me say, ‘You look great, Hyung!’ were gone.

“Oh!”

I groped the middle of my legs in a hurry, thinking about the thoughts that had passed through my head. Fortunately, the size wasn’t bad. Of course, it couldn’t compare to my original body’s.

“…….”

After looking around, I sat down with my buttocks on the bed and was lost in thought. First, I had to figure out the situation.

My last memory was holding my stabbed stomach and struggling. No matter how serious the wound was, it was embarrassing to die because of the betrayal of my beloved younger brother. He was babbling something like he was sorry or he couldn’t help it before he put the knife in my stomach.

‘Then… am I dead?’

Being betrayed was not a new thing, but this time the situation was very bad. I was suddenly stabbed in the pit of my stomach, so my body probably couldn’t stand it.

I let out a dejected laugh.

It had been years of struggling to survive, stepping in other people’s footsteps, but I died in vain?

‘……so what the hell is this body?’

I was stunned by a reality I had never imagined. Actually, all of this could be a dream and I could be lying in the hospital. It was possible. Dreams that were as vivid as reality could be dreamed of. At least it was worth checking out.

I jumped up and searched around the hotel room. However, no matter how much I looked, I couldn’t find any knife or scissors. I threw a glass on the floor. The glass was shattered and scattered on the floor. It would take some trouble to clean it later, but I wondered what it would be like. To be honest, all of this felt more like a dream than a reality.

I grabbed one of the broken pieces of glass and held it to my wrist. Red blood spurted out of my pure white skin. This wasn’t enough, so I swung my wrist, letting red blood gush out.

“…it hurts.”

Why does it hurt? As I looked up at the blood dripping down, I saw a face I had never seen before in the mirror. The face under the fine brown hair was neat, and it looked pretty good. But his skin was too white and his body was thin, so I couldn’t feel the vitality. Tsk tsk, you should’ve worked out.

The face reflected in the mirror was distorted. Whether it was a dream or not, if I felt this kind of pain, I should be careful. I sighed and pondered what to do with my bleeding arm when suddenly the door swung open and someone came in.

“Han Yi-gyeol! Stop sleeping and wake up! Master… what the fuck?”

The man who was stomping towards me looked at me and asked in a pitying voice, “What’s wrong with you? Did you really harm yourself?”

“……”

“What a mess… geez, you sure have been busy. You’re such a loser.”

He shook his head fiercely. I listened to what the other had to say in front of me. One thing I was sure of was my memory. Han Yi-gyeol. Why was this name so familiar? Han Yi-gyeol, Han Yi-gyeol……

“Ah.”

After contemplating the name for a long time, I raised my head as if receiving a divine message. Han Yi-gyeol! It was the character in the novel I read yesterday. He was the only person who appeared in ‘Abyss’ only to die.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ADJUSTED:
Actions and dialogue linked together.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought hard. Where the hell am I? I looked around the dazzling room and slowly got up.

After carefully examining the room’s interior, which was sparkling so much that my eyes hurt, I put my hand on my stomach reflexively. "What...?”

I calmly got out of bed and looked over my body. The scars that filled the whole body had disappeared, and my field of vision was slightly lower. “What the fuck is this?” The scars had disappeared and I'd become shorter. Secondly, I couldn’t see my precious muscles. The proud abs that every time I took off my shirt, made people around me say, ‘You look great, Hyung!’ were gone.

“Oh!” I groped between my legs in a hurry, thinking about the thoughts that had passed through my head. Fortunately, the size wasn’t bad. Of course, it couldn’t compare to my original body’s.

After looking around, I sat down on the bed lost in thought. First, I had to figure out the situation.

My last memory was of holding my stabbed stomach and struggling.

No matter how serious the wound was, it was embarrassing to die because my beloved younger brother betrayed me. He babbled something like he was sorry, or he couldn’t help it then stabbed the knife into my stomach.

Being betrayed was not a new thing, but this time the situation was very bad. I was stabbed in the pit of my stomach, so my body probably couldn’t stand it. Then… Am I dead? I let out a dejected laugh. It had been years of struggling to survive, stepping in other people’s footsteps, but I died in vain?

So what the hell is this body? I was stunned by a reality I had never imagined. Actually, all of this could be a dream and I could be lying in the hospital. It was possible. Dreams that were as vivid as reality could be dreamed of. At least it was worth checking out.

I jumped up and searched around the hotel room. However, no matter how much I looked, I couldn’t find any knife or scissors. I threw a glass on the floor.

The glass shattered and scattered on the floor.

It would take some trouble to clean it later, but I wondered what it would be like. To be honest, all of this felt more like a dream than a reality.

I grabbed one of the broken pieces of glass and held it to my wrist. Red blood spurted out of my pure white skin. This wasn’t enough, so I swung my wrist, letting red blood gush out. “It hurts.” Why does it hurt? As I looked up from the blood dripping down, I saw a face I had never seen before in the mirror.

The face under the fine brown hair was neat and pretty good, but his skin was too white and his body was thin. I couldn’t feel the vitality.

Tsk tsk, you should’ve worked out.

The face reflected in the mirror distorted.

Whether it was a dream or not, if I felt pain, I should be careful. I sighed and pondered what to do with my bleeding arm.

Suddenly the door swung open and someone came in. “Han Yi-gyeol! Stop sleeping and wake up! Master-- What the fuck?” The man stomped towards me, looked at me, and asked in a pitying voice, “What’s wrong with you? Did you really harm yourself?" He shook his head fiercely. "What a mess. Geez, you sure have been busy. You’re such a loser.”

I listened to what the other had to say in front of me. One thing I was sure of was my memory. Han Yi-gyeol. Why was this name so familiar? Han Yi-gyeol, Han Yi-gyeol--

After contemplating the name for a long time, I raised my head as if receiving a divine message. “Ah!” Han Yi-gyeol was a character in the novel I read yesterday. He was the only person who appeared in the book, Abyss only to die.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Words in red are either moved or changed.


The issue was in the phrasing of your 1st post. You were wording them as categorical "No" which is what I had an issue with.
I also said:

DISCLAIMER: This is how I was taught to structure dialogue for publication purposes -- by my editors.​
If you don't want to do it this way -- Don't. (Less competition for me.)​

And:

Just for the record...
Using dialogue tags is Not against the rules. Dialogue tags are a perfectly viable way to identify who is speaking -- it just makes that part of the story BORING. (I don't know about you, but I won't read something that bores me.)​
Honest question: Who's [Phil Phantom]? Your link throws me a "site not found" and google just finds him as an erotica author who was (kinda) successful. A list of pen names gives me no result on amazon (no idea whether those are right or wrong), and that's it. Going by that, he seems to be a half-decent niche-author. Don't know whether there is more.
He was a fairly successful erotica author in the 80's and 90's. He wrote a stack of 60k novels under half a dozen pen names, and stories for just about every adult magazine out at the time. He died in the late 90's.

So honest question: why is he a person of authority that should be quoted on passive vs active voice?
Phil Phantom posted some of the first essays on adult writing on the 'net, so to those of us who were there at the time, he IS an authority. Also, his essays are not only highly entertaining, they're easy to remember -- and apply.

I could argue with "one random university":

You may argue. I'll even let you. ☕

Consider this though...

I'm actually familiar with that college course. It's for Creative Writing. There Are No Rules in Creative Writing because that form of writing is not meant for professional publication.

The information covered in my essays is the opposite. I never learned Creative Writing. My information comes from my personal experiences with professional editors as a published author -- and I do not mean self-published.

Whether or not anyone wants to use the information I've provided is entirely up to them.
 
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OokamiKasumi

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Again you aren't listening to what I am saying. I did not say that people should write all in a passive voice. I said that categorically excluding it is not a good rule to follow.
You know, Passive Voice was not covered in my essay. It was in a different post altogether.

Anyway... I don't actually believe that Passive Voice should be wiped off the face of fiction! It's just Bad Form and many editors don't like it, and won't accept it. Mine certainly won't.

And that reference isn't really a good example. It is like saying hey I know you want to read about strong and manly MC! write strong and manly MC - remove all these wimpy girls and have him jerk himself! it will be very manly.
Good Lord...! Did you even read the excerpt? Because it looks to me like you only caught a few lines and bolted.

Passive voice is like a shadow to the light of the active voice.
How poetic.

Stating that it has no place in literature is plain wrong. You can always say that new authors should avoid it until they know what they are doing. Not outright exclude it.
Passive Voice has no place in English fiction -- if you intend to write for a Publisher. Literature is a completely different form of writing that borders on Creative Writing.

In creative writing --which is what this site is all about-- there are no rules. Anything is acceptable. If someone wants to use Passive Voice in their writing, in part or in whole, go for it!

However, if someone eventually plans to send their work to an actual publisher like Berkley or Kensington, they might want to keep my advice in mind.

I didn't forget. But I also noticed the tone of your 'suggestion' which does indirectly insist on following it by the way "you don't have to do it this way - stay a loser". I would have no issues with you writing this as a general recommendation from you.
A general recommendation...?

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that I write Nice essays? Essays that gently suggest my advice to writers rather than tell them point blank: "Don't do that."?

Are you saying you have a problem with my Active Voice style of writing?

Are you suggesting that I should write my essays in Passive Voice?!

Uh... No. Hard Pass.

What I was pointing out is that you are setting it as strong advice of a professional that should be absolutely taken into account.
I am a professional. You should take my advice into account -- if you ever plan to go to a professional publisher.

Yet the advice is very broad and directed toward more of the lower barrel of authors who are likely to gain from this advice than lose.
Who are these "lower barrel of authors who are likely to gain from this advice than lose"?

And for many authors, it would actually cause issues instead of helping them out because of its shotgun approach.
What kind of issues could my essays' direct 'shotgun' approach possibly cause?

The bulk of my essays, and there are over 50 of them, were written specifically for authors and writers trying to break into print. The no-nonsense, "do it this way" style of writing was so that the advice could be directly applied. Rather like a recipe, I guess. "Follow these directions and--fiction!"

However, Creative Writers tend to dislike my essays. In fact, I have to defend myself more from the Creative Writers than I do with anyone else. Apparently, they don't like 'directions' or 'instructions'.

Are these the people you are referring to?
 

LilTV1155

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Messages
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Uh... I did, in the essay.
-- However, for you I will copy-paste some translated lines to show you exactly what I mean about lines of dialogue cut away from the actions they belong with. Also, ellipses abuse.

One big Example from:

I DON’T WANT THIS REINCARNATION

Language : Korean
Author(s) : 차선
Original Publisher Bullet Publishing

DISCLAIMER: This is FAN translated, not Professionally translated! However, this example is not meant to trash the translators! I happen to be very fond of this novel, and I have absolute respect for the hard work these translators do out of pure love for the books they translate. Please be respectful!

ORIGINAL:
Copy-pasted straight from the page.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EPISODE 1. I opened my eyes

I thought hard.

Where the hell am I?

I looked around the dazzling room and slowly got up. After carefully examining the room’s interior, which was sparkling so much that my eyes hurt, I put my hand on my stomach reflexively.

“What……”

I calmly got out of bed and looked over my body. The scars that filled the whole body had disappeared, and my field of vision was slightly lowered.

“What the fuck is this…”

The scars disappeared and I became shorter. Secondly, I couldn’t see my precious muscles. Every time I took off my shirt, the proud abs made people around me say, ‘You look great, Hyung!’ were gone.

“Oh!”

I groped the middle of my legs in a hurry, thinking about the thoughts that had passed through my head. Fortunately, the size wasn’t bad. Of course, it couldn’t compare to my original body’s.

“…….”

After looking around, I sat down with my buttocks on the bed and was lost in thought. First, I had to figure out the situation.

My last memory was holding my stabbed stomach and struggling. No matter how serious the wound was, it was embarrassing to die because of the betrayal of my beloved younger brother. He was babbling something like he was sorry or he couldn’t help it before he put the knife in my stomach.

‘Then… am I dead?’

Being betrayed was not a new thing, but this time the situation was very bad. I was suddenly stabbed in the pit of my stomach, so my body probably couldn’t stand it.

I let out a dejected laugh.

It had been years of struggling to survive, stepping in other people’s footsteps, but I died in vain?

‘……so what the hell is this body?’

I was stunned by a reality I had never imagined. Actually, all of this could be a dream and I could be lying in the hospital. It was possible. Dreams that were as vivid as reality could be dreamed of. At least it was worth checking out.

I jumped up and searched around the hotel room. However, no matter how much I looked, I couldn’t find any knife or scissors. I threw a glass on the floor. The glass was shattered and scattered on the floor. It would take some trouble to clean it later, but I wondered what it would be like. To be honest, all of this felt more like a dream than a reality.

I grabbed one of the broken pieces of glass and held it to my wrist. Red blood spurted out of my pure white skin. This wasn’t enough, so I swung my wrist, letting red blood gush out.

“…it hurts.”

Why does it hurt? As I looked up at the blood dripping down, I saw a face I had never seen before in the mirror. The face under the fine brown hair was neat, and it looked pretty good. But his skin was too white and his body was thin, so I couldn’t feel the vitality. Tsk tsk, you should’ve worked out.

The face reflected in the mirror was distorted. Whether it was a dream or not, if I felt this kind of pain, I should be careful. I sighed and pondered what to do with my bleeding arm when suddenly the door swung open and someone came in.

“Han Yi-gyeol! Stop sleeping and wake up! Master… what the fuck?”

The man who was stomping towards me looked at me and asked in a pitying voice, “What’s wrong with you? Did you really harm yourself?”

“……”

“What a mess… geez, you sure have been busy. You’re such a loser.”

He shook his head fiercely. I listened to what the other had to say in front of me. One thing I was sure of was my memory. Han Yi-gyeol. Why was this name so familiar? Han Yi-gyeol, Han Yi-gyeol……

“Ah.”

After contemplating the name for a long time, I raised my head as if receiving a divine message. Han Yi-gyeol! It was the character in the novel I read yesterday. He was the only person who appeared in ‘Abyss’ only to die.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

ADJUSTED:
Actions and dialogue linked together.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I thought hard. Where the hell am I? I looked around the dazzling room and slowly got up.

After carefully examining the room’s interior, which was sparkling so much that my eyes hurt, I put my hand on my stomach reflexively. "What...?”

I calmly got out of bed and looked over my body. The scars that filled the whole body had disappeared, and my field of vision was slightly lower. “What the fuck is this?” The scars had disappeared and I'd become shorter. Secondly, I couldn’t see my precious muscles. The proud abs that every time I took off my shirt, made people around me say, ‘You look great, Hyung!’ were gone.

“Oh!” I groped between my legs in a hurry, thinking about the thoughts that had passed through my head. Fortunately, the size wasn’t bad. Of course, it couldn’t compare to my original body’s.

After looking around, I sat down on the bed lost in thought. First, I had to figure out the situation.

My last memory was of holding my stabbed stomach and struggling.

No matter how serious the wound was, it was embarrassing to die because my beloved younger brother betrayed me. He babbled something like he was sorry, or he couldn’t help it then stabbed the knife into my stomach.

Being betrayed was not a new thing, but this time the situation was very bad. I was stabbed in the pit of my stomach, so my body probably couldn’t stand it. Then… Am I dead? I let out a dejected laugh. It had been years of struggling to survive, stepping in other people’s footsteps, but I died in vain?

So what the hell is this body? I was stunned by a reality I had never imagined. Actually, all of this could be a dream and I could be lying in the hospital. It was possible. Dreams that were as vivid as reality could be dreamed of. At least it was worth checking out.

I jumped up and searched around the hotel room. However, no matter how much I looked, I couldn’t find any knife or scissors. I threw a glass on the floor.

The glass shattered and scattered on the floor.

It would take some trouble to clean it later, but I wondered what it would be like. To be honest, all of this felt more like a dream than a reality.

I grabbed one of the broken pieces of glass and held it to my wrist. Red blood spurted out of my pure white skin. This wasn’t enough, so I swung my wrist, letting red blood gush out. “It hurts.” Why does it hurt? As I looked up from the blood dripping down, I saw a face I had never seen before in the mirror.

The face under the fine brown hair was neat and pretty good, but his skin was too white and his body was thin. I couldn’t feel the vitality.

Tsk tsk, you should’ve worked out.

The face reflected in the mirror distorted.

Whether it was a dream or not, if I felt pain, I should be careful. I sighed and pondered what to do with my bleeding arm.

Suddenly the door swung open and someone came in. “Han Yi-gyeol! Stop sleeping and wake up! Master-- What the fuck?” The man stomped towards me, looked at me, and asked in a pitying voice, “What’s wrong with you? Did you really harm yourself?" He shook his head fiercely. "What a mess. Geez, you sure have been busy. You’re such a loser.”

I listened to what the other had to say in front of me. One thing I was sure of was my memory. Han Yi-gyeol. Why was this name so familiar? Han Yi-gyeol, Han Yi-gyeol--

After contemplating the name for a long time, I raised my head as if receiving a divine message. “Ah!” Han Yi-gyeol was a character in the novel I read yesterday. He was the only person who appeared in the book, Abyss only to die.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Words in red are either moved or changed.



I also said:

DISCLAIMER: This is how I was taught to structure dialogue for publication purposes -- by my editors.​
If you don't want to do it this way -- Don't. (Less competition for me.)​

And:

Just for the record...
Using dialogue tags is Not against the rules. Dialogue tags are a perfectly viable way to identify who is speaking -- it just makes that part of the story BORING. (I don't know about you, but I won't read something that bores me.)​

He was a fairly successful erotica author in the 80's and 90's. He wrote a stack of 60k novels under half a dozen pen names, and stories for just about every adult magazine out at the time. He died in the late 90's.


Phil Phantom posted some of the first essays on adult writing on the 'net, so to those of us who were there at the time, he IS an authority. Also, his essays are not only highly entertaining, they're easy to remember -- and apply.


You may argue. I'll even let you. ☕

Consider this though...

I'm actually familiar with that college course. It's for Creative Writing. There Are No Rules in Creative Writing because that form of writing is not meant for professional publication.

The information covered in my essays is the opposite. I never learned Creative Writing. My information comes from my personal experiences with professional editors as a published author -- and I do not mean self-published.

Whether or not anyone wants to use the information I'vre provided is entirely up to them.
You are right about the copypasted translated texts. It's a mess.

It's hard to tell who's speaking. Ellipses are fine to use. But I think that one got abused too much for speechless or shock silence.

Where's the Who Verb, "Dialogue?"
I understand why people don't like using verbs. But the Who is more essential in identifying dialogues.

One time, I read a translated webnovel. I could not tell who said what. It goes like this.
" . . . ."
" . . . ."
"yea."
"no."
Who's talking 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th? I dropped the story from reading list because of that.

It 's also hard to tell whether a character is talking or doing something. Look like my old writing where I jammed every dialogue, descriptions, and actions into 1 paragraph per paragraph.
Blocks of letters jam.

Showed it to a high school teacher.
He was like ". . . . . Yeah, cool. You need to fix that part."

To be a good storywriter, is not always about following the grammar rules. But to make it easier for readers to understand your meanings. Which meant no one's story is trash, but the writing need improvement. In order for that to happens, criticism is a must.

Like how to get a person identify their mental health disorder. Make them recognize and understand the problem. Then they can cope with their mental health issues.

It's not about we expect anyone or force anyone to pick a choice. Some readers just want their authors to clarify the situations.

Like how a rapper sing song of Ride with the Mob lyrics. Everyone thought the rapper did some gangster stuffs.
Nope! He was talking about his lifestyle back in his country, not gangsters.
Just make it clear. You don't have to be strict. If you can't, then just write your way whatever you want. Who care if reader don't get it as ling you writer know your story by heart already.

Forget rules. It's all about telling a story.
Storytelling idea first. Techniques and methods last (first, if people want money and fame).

Remember ART first. Format last
 
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OokamiKasumi

Author of Quality Smut
Joined
Mar 20, 2021
Messages
177
Points
58
You are right about the copypasted translated texts. It's a mess.

It's hard to tell who's speaking. Ellipses are fine to use. But I think that one got abused too much for speechless or shock silence.

Where's the Who Verb, "Dialogue?"
I understand why people don't like using verbs. But the Who is more essential in identifying dialogues.

One time, I read a translated webnovel. I could not tell who said what. It goes like this.
" . . . ."
" . . . ."
"yea."
"no."
Who's talking 1st, 2nd, 3rd,4th? I dropped the story from reading list because of that.

It 's also hard to tell whether a character is talking or doing something. Look like my old writing where I jammed every dialogue, descriptions, and actions into 1 paragraph per paragraph.
Blocks of letters jam.

Showed it to a high school teacher.
He was like ". . . . . Yeah, cool. You need to fix that part."

To be a good storywriter, is not always about following the grammar rules. But to make it easier for readers to understand your meanings. Which meant no one's story is trash, but the writing need improvement. In order for that to happens, criticism is a must.

Like how to get a person identify their mental health disorder. Make them recognize and understand the problem. Then they can cope with their mental health issues.

It's not about we expect anyone or force anyone to pick a choice. Some readers just want their authors to clarify the situations.

Like how a rapper sing song of Ride with the Mob lyrics. Everyone thought the rapper did some gangster stuffs.
Nope! He was talking about his lifestyle back in his country, not gangsters.
Just make it clear. You don't have to be strict. If you can't, then just write your way whatever you want. Who care if reader don't get it as ling you writer know your story by heart already.

Forget rules. It's all about telling a story.
Storytelling idea first. Techniques and methods last (first, if people want money and fame).

Remember ART first. Format last
I like you so much...!
 

LostLibrarian

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2019
Messages
659
Points
133
Hmm... no notification, if one is added to a post later, it seems... but anyway.

He was a fairly successful erotica author in the 80's and 90's. He wrote a stack of 60k novels under half a dozen pen names, and stories for just about every adult magazine out at the time. He died in the late 90's.
So in short just one author way behind the time of modern publishing? :blob_whistle:
I mean, quote him when you want, his stuff is both entertaining to read and has a true core, but it isn't really an authority to me. It's no different than going "but Stephen King uses passive voice!".

The information covered in my essays is the opposite. I never learned Creative Writing. My information comes from my personal experiences with professional editors as a published author -- and I do not mean self-published.
Which is fine. And as I said before, there is value to it. The problem a lot of people have is when you go and use extremes and quote those parts that sounds nice to your argument. You can't go "Who told you it was okay to use Passive Voice in fiction?! They need to be slapped!" and then quote Mark Twain, who used it all the time. Like that undermines your entire argument.


If you go "If you want to break into publishing in 2021 as a new author without any name-value, avoid passive voice at all cost, because for most editors it's a no-go." That's completely fine. But going so far as saying "has no place at all" is something that people will always argue against, because it is wrong. And it doesn't make your point stronger because you are so determined, it actually weakens your argument, because there are clearly a ton of modern authors who still use passive voice and are published. Harry Potter became a giant imperium of success... with passive voice in chapter one.

And yeah, you can go "Those star authors should listen to their editor/get an editor" or "Those authors wouldn't get approved nowadays" and you would probably be right. But fact is, passive voice isn't a no-go in fiction. Passive voice is simply an easy filter to boil down new applicants. So yeah, it is something to be avoided by new authors who go for a publishing.

And yeah, you can go and point at that "I only talk about a specific and tiny part of fiction and all the discussion is only about that" which is fair. But when you go into the discussion with "never", "no-go", and the like without adding these disclaimers once more, people will jump on that.

Especially because - as you said - all those rules aren't a "no-go" on this site, but a rule for those, who want to start their next book, don't publish it here, and sent it to publisher. Which is only a tiny fraction, because the majority of people write here because (a) they know they don't have the skill for a publisher or (b) decided actively to not go for traditional publishing.



So yeah, with that, I think we can agree on that. Those without a name, who want to break into traditional publishing, should crawl as deep into the editor's backside as possible, which also means using a ton of additional rules, that doesn't apply to fiction itself. But that's a thing that has to do with editors and their workload and a lot less with what Mark Twain said 150 years ago, known grammar rule, or even the entirety of publishing in itself...


(and I think, with that point I'm out of this discussion and into my bed.
Otherwise we will only repeat the same stuff...).
 
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Biggest-Kusa-Out-There

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Messages
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First of all, the internet is a frightening place. Second of all, do not doxx the author, or I will chase whoever's ass I need to chase.

So, I went down the rabbit hole. Clicking links to various sites you have on your profiles and descriptions to see your work, I found what I assume to be your latest book "Splintxxx Mxxxx", published in 2014. The summary is pretty good, a woman that gets tangled up in passionate drama. Gets the people going.

But damn.

Amazon: 4 stars (15 ratings)
Barnes and Noble: 4 stars (5 ratings)
Good Readings: 3.77 stars (124 ratings)
Google Play Store Books: 4.8 stars (4 ratings)
Kobo: 3.5 stars (4 ratings)


I don't know if I want to follow an editor's advice anymore. If I take those ratings as the number of people who purchased your book, only 150-ish people bought it. For 6 US dollars average, that's about 914 US dollars total (I don't know the actual numbers, but I look at the people who gave enough of a damn to rate your book). For professional literature, that's a dark future ahead of me.

Now, if we take a look at two fictions I read that are on Patreon, in other words self-published authors:

Rhaegar, the author of Azarinth Healer, has 3,329 patreons at a minimum of 2 usd. That's 6658 dollaroos a month at the very least.

FortySixtyFour, author of 'AnimeCon Harem' and 'RE: Trailer Trash' (I've read both, has 'said' and tells a lot), earns 3,335 dollaroos a month with 1293 Patreons.

I end with the question: Why would anyone want to be traditionally published anymore? What is there to gain by entering the decrepit machine that is traditional publishing? This is not a question of good writing or bad writing but becomes a which one will you put food on the table with?
 

LostLibrarian

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For professional literature, that's a dark future ahead of me.
You can probably multiply that by a bit based on how it was marketed and sold. Even the biggest hits where everyone wants to say their opinion have a factor of 2-10 there. And it gets bigger for more unknown fiction...
Though we also don't know, what the author's actual cut is...

I end with the question: Why would anyone want to be traditionally published anymore? What is there to gain by entering the decrepit machine that is traditional publishing?
(a) It's a great feeling seeing your book in a bookstore as physical copy. It's a dream of a lot of people who grew up going to said bookstores.
(b) The usual american dream: hitting that one good book with a publisher is enough so that you will never have to work again. It's a tiny chance, but hit the jackpot with the next trendy teen drama and series, movies, translations, stardom, etc are all open to you...

Walking over the red carpet, seeing (your favorite actor) play (character X in your book) - that's still a massive dream for a lot of authors. A bit like how many of those, who started by reading/writing light novels will dream about having their own anime...
 

Biggest-Kusa-Out-There

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You can probably multiply that by a bit based on how it was marketed and sold. Even the biggest hits where everyone wants to say their opinion have a factor of 2-10 there. And it gets bigger for more unknown fiction...
Though we also don't know, what the author's actual cut is...


(a) It's a great feeling seeing your book in a bookstore as physical copy. It's a dream of a lot of people who grew up going to said bookstores.
(b) The usual american dream: hitting that one good book with a publisher is enough so that you will never have to work again. It's a tiny chance, but hit the jackpot with the next trendy teen drama and series, movies, translations, stardom, etc are all open to you...

Walking over the red carpet, seeing (your favorite actor) play (character X in your book) - that's still a massive dream for a lot of authors. A bit like how many of those, who started by reading/writing light novels will dream about having their own anime...
That's why I added the little 'I don't know the actual numbers', as it's obviously not displayed to the public. I went with the safest number to assume.

The matter still stands, why break your back with unnecessary rules if the alternative is as, if not more, profitable and accessible?
Look at what happened to Eragon, they absolutely butchered it. That has happened more times than it should.
The Golden Compass was a big-screen hit, but the story was fucked to the ground, and it had Daniel Craig and Nicole Kidman. Now the story has a series which does an arguably better job, and it has James McAvoy and Lin-Manuel Miranda and the story still got fucked, but less.
Look at the Witcher, a slavic Polish fantasy set in the 13th century. Look at Yennefer, she looks like a latina coke-addict. Triss? Bruh. Phillipa? Bruh.

Why would I lend my story to get fucked for a chance at success/fame? Why would anyone else? Traditional publishing is not the holy grail, not anymore. Webnovels get famous anime adaptation, look at Overlord and it's success. It's full of telling when explaining shit. I'm not from the U.S., and a lot of authors aren't either. As I said, the tips are good, but nothing else.
 

OokamiKasumi

Author of Quality Smut
Joined
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Messages
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First of all, the internet is a frightening place. Second of all, do not doxx the author, or I will chase whoever's ass I need to chase.

So, I went down the rabbit hole. Clicking links to various sites you have on your profiles and descriptions to see your work, I found what I assume to be your latest book "Splintxxx Mxxxx", published in 2014...
Actually, that's not my latest book out. LOL! I need to update that site a bit. My latest book out is Vicxxx Stxxx, or rather that whole series. It was released by a second publisher two years ago.
 

LostLibrarian

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Messages
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Webnovels get famous anime adaptation, look at Overlord and it's success.
Because the publishing is different. Even those webnovels "only" got a "traditional light novel" and their anime after success. What the webnovel is to the light novel, is what the manuscript is to english traditional publishing. Only webnovels filter more through success and the western world often more through rules and "gatekeeping".

And I personally like the eastern model a lot more. We get some cases of that (e.g. through wattpad nowadays), but sadly the western world is a bit more traditional in that regard...

Why would anyone else?
Money, fame, money.

I don't say do it. Especially if you love that one series so much, that you don't want to see it butchered. But the main driving point for getting traditionally published is "making a living". If you reach the mid-level of success, publishers will actively push your series just so they can make more money out of it. Which in turn can be a lot safer than a patreon where you might have no money after a downtime of a few months.

But yeah, it has a lot to do with fame or name-value. Which isn't for anyone.

I personally had some people ask me whether I would want to try giving them a manuscript (though in my mother tongue). I said no, because that life isn't for me. I know I would never reach that top, so I rather write what I love instead what might make the cut. But that is also based on a foundation of security. For others, writing that one bestseller might be the way to break out of their current life...

And as always... people who are 30 now, still know the time without any internet. People who are 40 or even 50 as well. So for a lot of people, it is also a point of "values through upbringing". There was no amazon or self-publishing for a living when I grew up. Traditional publishing was the only way. Which is still ingrained to a lot of people.
 

Biggest-Kusa-Out-There

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Money, fame, money.

I don't say do it. Especially if you love that one series so much, that you don't want to see it butchered. But the main driving point for getting traditionally published is "making a living". If you reach the mid-level of success, publishers will actively push your series just so they can make more money out of it. Which in turn can be a lot safer than a patreon where you might have no money after a downtime of a few months.

But yeah, it has a lot to do with fame or name-value. Which isn't for anyone.

I personally had some people ask me whether I would want to try giving them a manuscript (though in my mother tongue). I said no, because that life isn't for me. I know I would never reach that top, so I rather write what I love instead what might make the cut. But that is also based on a foundation of security. For others, writing that one bestseller might be the way to break out of their current life...

And as always... people who are 30 now, still know the time without any internet. People who are 40 or even 50 as well. So for a lot of people, it is also a point of "values through upbringing". There was no amazon or self-publishing for a living when I grew up. Traditional publishing was the only way. Which is still ingrained to a lot of people.
True, the gate to opportunity is big, but the street you're walking into is too damn toxic that it just doesn't justify it in my eyes.
Now you're making me feel old, going to the library to read because there was no online publishing back then... curse you!

Patreon is way safer to write a 200k story in a six months time if you get a following. But writing multiple 50k stories is enough to cover expenses and live a good life if you're smart with money. This view of chasing luxury is something I will never understand tbh, and maybe that fucks my lenses more than it should.
 
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