Unpopular opinion on harems

[CupcakeNinja]

Lol look at what this thread has become.

 

[Ral]

Sure but, like I said, it's still closer to traditional harems than the majority of harems we see. The definition has evolved. If we're going to call anime harems "harems," then we might as well be calling "poly-harems" the same as well. Also, let's be real here. Take one guy - the main character. Give him a bunch of waifus. Make his waifus all gay for each other as well. Market it as a harem. I promise you that the vast majority of people specifically looking for harems are going to be fine with it and consider it a harem. Me and several other successful authors are already doing this exact thing and it has never posed a problem or caused any controversy regarding whether they're really harems or not. If anything, it would be hard to find an original-English harem that doesn't make the women at least slightly gay for each other. It's just usually played for the male fantasy of hot lesbians being hot lesbians rather than women who have deeper feelings for each other.

Well, the core is still there. The association of many girls to one guy. The definition still fits.

However, more that one guy and the definition doesn't fit anymore. Not a harem.

But again, if we want to go by the "true" definition of harem or whatever, then none of those are harems. 99% of what we call harems aren't actually harems. This entire thread isn't actually about harems. I am strictly speaking to what the term "harem" has evolved into as a genre, and that is basically anything where the main character has multiple love interests interested in them. Even if you take the traditional love triangle and put it in front of people who are used to seeing "harem" referenced, they're probably going to call it a harem instead of just a love triangle.

The word does take new meanings and many words are like that. Still, there are cases where the definition is stretched too far. Just because some people call it harem doesn't make it a harem.

Sure a select people would call it a harem, but, in the same logic, I could also say that people who are not used to harem referenced would not call it a harem.

 

[Deleted member 29316]

mega dong = cheat
money = cheat

 

[TotallyHuman]

So, I have an unpopular opinion.
I hate harems.

I don't think it's an unpopular opinion though

 

[Ace_Arriande]

Well, the core is still there. The association of many girls to one guy. The definition still fits.

However, more that one guy and the definition doesn't fit anymore. Not a harem.

The real problem is that as soon as there's another guy involved, everybody who's reading it for a male fantasy where they expect multiple women to love one guy and each other will get upset and leave seething reviews that those women are also capable of liking another guy, or that the MC is bisexual instead of heterosexual. Even if the new guy involved isn't even interested in the other girls and only loves the main guy. I would argue that they don't care about the fact that it might be breaking the technical definition so much as they care that it doesn't appeal to their heterosexual fantasy any longer.

Also "trap" characters are usually considered parts of the harem in anime, and they're males. (Note: I'm referencing cis-gendered traps, not transexual characters as transexual characters are not traps.)

Hot girls being gay to each other? Heck yeah.
Hot guys being gay to each other? Time to spam it with .5 star ratings/reviews. Coughcoughcertainotherplatformscoughcough.

That aside, I have a lot more bisexual/pansexual readers than I ever could have expected to get, and they frequently discuss and bring up other series that have "harems" where there are multiple different genders among the harem members. Some of them have been pretty popular marketed-as-harem stories on Amazon, too. Never any problem with calling them harem. Just people in reviews who sometimes complain when non-straight guys exist.

The word does take new meanings and many words are like that. Still, there are cases where the definition is stretched too far. Just because some people call it harem doesn't make it a harem.

Yeah, I'll agree to this. I wouldn't consider a love triangle to be a harem either. Harems, to me, have to have at least 3+ love interests at once. Even so, I've seen plenty of people refer to anime/manga with love triangles as harems. While I might not agree to that, I will agree with calling anything with 3+ love interests who are interested in the main character a harem.

 

[Bugi]

So, I have an unpopular opinion.
I hate harems.
The way I see it, there are a few different ways that harems can play out.
1. The main character is completely and absurdly dense, to the point where all the women in the harem fall in love with him only for him to be like 'Love? What is that? I've never heard of that before.' This is bad for very obvious reasons. It's painful to watch, and nobody gets any satisfaction in the end.
2. The main character is a complete perv and/or wants to mess around with all the women who are in love with him. Why is it, that in so much fiction, the women in a harem continuously love the man despite the fact that he is a complete scumbag, and doesn't even choose one to be with but rather puts off the decision while being with whoever is with him at the moment?
There is one series which I believe was a satirical take on this type of harem which many have probably heard of, an anime called 'school days'.
(Spoiler warning to anyone who intends to watch this, but imma be honest I wouldn't recommend watching as it will hurt your brain and your heart.)
Basically, the mc is exactly how it is described here, but the girls in this series react somewhat realistically.
Instead of clinging to him and never getting angry or depressed, the mc does end up severely hurting the people who are in love with him as he does what he wants and fails to choose a single one to be with. It's painful to watch, but makes you ask the question 'Why in most harems do the women not get hurt ever? Why do they continue to cling to the mc, and never get truly angry at him or sad that he is being bombarded by 5 other women and their assaults?' Sometimes, the women don't even consider each other as rivals but merely only focus on the mc and nothing else. It's just unrealistic, and so tailored towards what people want their own personal little world to be like. They want to be surrounded by women who will do their every beck and call, and not question the other 6 women who are doing the exact same thing. Preposterous.
3. The main character actually chooses one of the many women among the harem, hurting the ones who lost but ending up with the one who won.
This is the one that I hate the least, out of all harems, but it begs the question- why was this a harem in the first place? Just to hurt these other characters, or temporarily please the viewers at seeing the mc be ogled by many women before finally settling on one of them? Idk.

Well, my point is that harems are just painful to watch. The only reason people enjoy them is because perhaps they want to imagine themselves with a harem, but this is just.... wrong. Instead, I would much rather prefer the mc to have a single, focused love interest, or to not have one at all (Particularly in series where romance is not the focus).

This is just a rant. I'm sure many disagree with me, and I will be getting essays about the 'artistic meaning' and 'thought out character building' that composes a harem. Just, no.

This post is not referring to series which are dramas. Those are of their own genre, and completely focused on the drama itself- so I understand that. But, how many isekais do we see where the mc is surrounded by multiple women in love with him? More importantly, how many do we see that aren't like this? Very few. Why is this? It's clearly because there is a demand for it. People want it. People love it. But I, do not.

I hate harems too...

 

[D4isuke]

I pretty much hate harem shows and fiction if the context is absurd, but having harem in real life can be heavenly solution from adultery other than being in this K-drama-esque shows when love triangle are solely conflicting theme within every episodes or chapters. Why not share love instead? Oh boiii, YOU DON'T NEED LOYALTY OF ONE FOR THE SAKE OF SELFISH LOVE AND ENVY.

 

[Ral]

The real problem is that as soon as there's another guy involved, everybody who's reading it for a male fantasy where they expect multiple women to love one guy and each other will get upset and leave seething reviews that those women are also capable of liking another guy, or that the MC is bisexual instead of heterosexual. Even if the new guy involved isn't even interested in the other girls and only loves the main guy. I would argue that they don't care about the fact that it might be breaking the technical definition so much as they care that it doesn't appeal to their heterosexual fantasy any longer.

Well yeah. That is the primary appeal of harem. Break it and its gone.

Still, this has nothing to do with what a word should mean.

That aside, I have a lot more bisexual/pansexual readers than I ever could have expected to get, and they frequently discuss and bring up other series that have "harems" where there are multiple different genders among the harem members. Some of them have been pretty popular marketed-as-harem stories on Amazon, too. Never any problem with calling them harem. Just people in reviews who sometimes complain when non-straight guys exist.

Probably because it still "kinda" fits though kinda stretched. Essentially generalizing the core concept. Instead of many girls to one guy, it is generalized to many to one.

You can stretch the concept to like many guys-one girl, or gays and grils one guy. The concept of many to one is there. Though things like this often results to creation of new terms for informal use like reverse harem for many guys-one girl to deferentiate it from harem. The gays/girls-one guy could still be considered harem since gays are attracted to guys, just like girls.

Still, those not really harem and many would complain about it. Most likely people would create new terms for these things just like the creation of Reverse Harems.

Maybe, the word Harem might become generalized like how we use the word Man. Man means male human (I'm a man!) and Woman means a female human (I feel like woman!), but Man is also used as a general term synonymous to Human (Man's best friend.).

Yeah, I'll agree to this. I wouldn't consider a love triangle to be a harem either. Harems, to me, have to have at least 3+ love interests at once. Even so, I've seen plenty of people refer to anime/manga with love triangles as harems. While I might not agree to that, I will agree with calling anything with 3+ love interests who are interested in the main character a harem.

Agree.

 

[Ace_Arriande]

Maybe, the word Harem might become generalized like how we use the word Man. Man means male human (I'm a man!) and Woman means a female human (I feel like woman!), but Man is also used as a general term synonymous to Human (Man's best friend.).

Basically how I see it, except I would also say that poly could count so long as the story itself focuses on the "many to one" interactions rather than the "many on many" interactions. So even if the girls love each other as well, if the story still focuses primarily on the girls and their shared love interest (the MC) while leaving most of the girl-girl interactions in the background or only being teased/implied, then it's effectively not really any different from a harem where they don't like each other. The vast majority of their interactions still revolve around the one main character. Now, if there wasn't one main character receiving most of the interactions and it was instead spread out equally among all of them, I would no longer call it a harem. But so long as the main character is still - well, the main character and having the story and most characters revolve around him, then it might as well just be called a harem. Having the girls like each other in the background just makes it more justifiable for them to be alright with the "harem" in the first place and makes the whole thing way more ethical and wholesome.

So to clarify a bit more:

Poly relationship where there is no one main character that everything revolves around: not a harem story.

Poly relationship with a main character who all the relationship members are in love with and the vast majority of shown scenes involving the relationship revolve around him while scenes not involving him are left for the background: basically a harem story by modern standards/context.

So, I'll agree to the "many to one." That's a good way of putting it. Only, rather than having to technically be many to one, I think that effectively being many to one is good enough. If it walks like a harem, quacks likes a harem, and has a bunch of cute waifus all loving the same guy and the vast majority of what's shown revolves around that, then it's a harem regardless of whether the girls also like each other or not. Or potentially a duck.

 

[BenJepheneT]

So, I have an unpopular opinion.
I hate harems.
The way I see it, there are a few different ways that harems can play out.
1. The main character is completely and absurdly dense, to the point where all the women in the harem fall in love with him only for him to be like 'Love? What is that? I've never heard of that before.' This is bad for very obvious reasons. It's painful to watch, and nobody gets any satisfaction in the end.
2. The main character is a complete perv and/or wants to mess around with all the women who are in love with him. Why is it, that in so much fiction, the women in a harem continuously love the man despite the fact that he is a complete scumbag, and doesn't even choose one to be with but rather puts off the decision while being with whoever is with him at the moment?
There is one series which I believe was a satirical take on this type of harem which many have probably heard of, an anime called 'school days'.
(Spoiler warning to anyone who intends to watch this, but imma be honest I wouldn't recommend watching as it will hurt your brain and your heart.)
Basically, the mc is exactly how it is described here, but the girls in this series react somewhat realistically.
Instead of clinging to him and never getting angry or depressed, the mc does end up severely hurting the people who are in love with him as he does what he wants and fails to choose a single one to be with. It's painful to watch, but makes you ask the question 'Why in most harems do the women not get hurt ever? Why do they continue to cling to the mc, and never get truly angry at him or sad that he is being bombarded by 5 other women and their assaults?' Sometimes, the women don't even consider each other as rivals but merely only focus on the mc and nothing else. It's just unrealistic, and so tailored towards what people want their own personal little world to be like. They want to be surrounded by women who will do their every beck and call, and not question the other 6 women who are doing the exact same thing. Preposterous.
3. The main character actually chooses one of the many women among the harem, hurting the ones who lost but ending up with the one who won.
This is the one that I hate the least, out of all harems, but it begs the question- why was this a harem in the first place? Just to hurt these other characters, or temporarily please the viewers at seeing the mc be ogled by many women before finally settling on one of them? Idk.

Well, my point is that harems are just painful to watch. The only reason people enjoy them is because perhaps they want to imagine themselves with a harem, but this is just.... wrong. Instead, I would much rather prefer the mc to have a single, focused love interest, or to not have one at all (Particularly in series where romance is not the focus).

This is just a rant. I'm sure many disagree with me, and I will be getting essays about the 'artistic meaning' and 'thought out character building' that composes a harem. Just, no.

This post is not referring to series which are dramas. Those are of their own genre, and completely focused on the drama itself- so I understand that. But, how many isekais do we see where the mc is surrounded by multiple women in love with him? More importantly, how many do we see that aren't like this? Very few. Why is this? It's clearly because there is a demand for it. People want it. People love it. But I, do not.

 

[Bloodysin28]

But...my credit...

Except money can also buy big dick

 

[CupcakeNinja]

Except money can also buy big dick

 

[K5Rakitan]

These are more agreeable, but I would not call them harems.
It's simply a sexually open society where everyone can bone whoever they want.

That's an open relationship.
Some poly relationships work that way, but some do not.
Some are closed relationships with three or four people.
Some don't even have sex with their romantic partners.

Personally, I'm polyamorous and my relationship style is open. I just wanted to let you know that polyamory comes in many different flavors.

 

[Leti]

I don't think it's an unpopular opinion though

I think it's called an un-unpopular opinion.

 

[Mephi]

However, more that one guy and the definition doesn't fit anymore. Not a harem.

Words change meaning over time. "Gay" used to just mean happy and not homosexual, after all. That's kind of what happened to harem - its meaning evolved in a society where the old style of harems no longer exist.

Personally, the only time I really use harems in stories myself is if we're talking about a vampire or an inc/succubus. But then, I like using them as a metaphor for embracing your shadow archetype rather than being forced into a Madonna/Whore duality system.

 

[ForestDweller]

Of course, neither of them are "real" harems. My point, though, is that they're what make up 99% of modern "harems." The defintion of harem as a genre has evolved. However, if I was forced to pick which one of those was closer to the "real" definition of harem, I would choose the latter.


Sure but, like I said, it's still closer to traditional harems than the majority of harems we see. The definition has evolved. If we're going to call anime harems "harems," then we might as well be calling "poly-harems" the same as well. Also, let's be real here. Take one guy - the main character. Give him a bunch of waifus. Make his waifus all gay for each other as well. Market it as a harem. I promise you that the vast majority of people specifically looking for harems are going to be fine with it and consider it a harem. Me and several other successful authors are already doing this exact thing and it has never posed a problem or caused any controversy regarding whether they're really harems or not. If anything, it would be hard to find an original-English harem that doesn't make the women at least slightly gay for each other. It's just usually played for the male fantasy of hot lesbians being hot lesbians rather than women who have deeper feelings for each other.

But again, if we want to go by the "true" definition of harem or whatever, then none of those are harems. 99% of what we call harems aren't actually harems. This entire thread isn't actually about harems. I am strictly speaking to what the term "harem" has evolved into as a genre, and that is basically anything where the main character has multiple love interests interested in them. Even if you take the traditional love triangle and put it in front of people who are used to seeing "harem" referenced, they're probably going to call it a harem instead of just a love triangle.

Makes me think of my own story which has a harem planned. Don't think I'll make them be bisexual. But they would see each other as sisters/rivals instead.

I feel making them be attracted to each other would ruin the wish-fulfillment aspect of cute/hot girls that only want your attention, not anybody else.

 

[Ral]

Words change meaning over time. "Gay" used to just mean happy and not homosexual, after all. That's kind of what happened to harem - its meaning evolved in a society where the old style of harems no longer exist.

Yes.

However, harem still haven't evolved to mean many girls many guys. Maybe if you get a time traveling machine and go years into the future, or ask about this years from now, the answer would be yes; and that is still a maybe. So, for now, not a harem.

 

[Ace_Arriande]

I feel making them be attracted to each other would ruin the wish-fulfillment aspect of cute/hot girls that only want your attention, not anybody else.

I'm very, very confident that most guys (seeing as how it's going to be mainly guys reading a harem) are going to have the "yay hot lesbians" thought overriding the potential ruining of wish fulfillment. I don't think I've ever had a single person complain about any of my waifus being gay for each other. It's usually a very, very welcomed thing in my experience and there are a good few other "harem" novels featuring waifus who are gay for each other that I don't believe have ever had a problem with it. Just asked one of my most prolific readers if he ever saw any complaints in novels that go this route, for whatever it's worth, and he's never seen complaints regarding it either. Only praise.

If you do manage to find somebody who wants to read a harem with cute waifus for the wish fulfillment who gets turned off when the waifus start making out with each other, though, then I'll be very, very impressed. If anything, I'm pretty sure most readers of harems would consider it a bonus to the wish fulfillment if they get to see the girls being hot for each other.

But even if you don't go the bisexual route, I do suggest making the girls at least friendly with each other. Like you said, sisterly or (friendly) rivals. You'll get 50% less complaints about how unrealistic it is for the girls to be alright with sharing a guy if you make the girls friendly to each other. 99% less complaints if you make them gay for each other, too.

 

[YuriDoggo]

Take out the middle man, ez

 

[IWannaBeAMergirl]

So, I have an unpopular opinion.
I hate harems.
The way I see it, there are a few different ways that harems can play out.
1. The main character is completely and absurdly dense, to the point where all the women in the harem fall in love with him only for him to be like 'Love? What is that? I've never heard of that before.' This is bad for very obvious reasons. It's painful to watch, and nobody gets any satisfaction in the end.
2. The main character is a complete perv and/or wants to mess around with all the women who are in love with him. Why is it, that in so much fiction, the women in a harem continuously love the man despite the fact that he is a complete scumbag, and doesn't even choose one to be with but rather puts off the decision while being with whoever is with him at the moment?
There is one series which I believe was a satirical take on this type of harem which many have probably heard of, an anime called 'school days'.
(Spoiler warning to anyone who intends to watch this, but imma be honest I wouldn't recommend watching as it will hurt your brain and your heart.)
Basically, the mc is exactly how it is described here, but the girls in this series react somewhat realistically.
Instead of clinging to him and never getting angry or depressed, the mc does end up severely hurting the people who are in love with him as he does what he wants and fails to choose a single one to be with. It's painful to watch, but makes you ask the question 'Why in most harems do the women not get hurt ever? Why do they continue to cling to the mc, and never get truly angry at him or sad that he is being bombarded by 5 other women and their assaults?' Sometimes, the women don't even consider each other as rivals but merely only focus on the mc and nothing else. It's just unrealistic, and so tailored towards what people want their own personal little world to be like. They want to be surrounded by women who will do their every beck and call, and not question the other 6 women who are doing the exact same thing. Preposterous.
3. The main character actually chooses one of the many women among the harem, hurting the ones who lost but ending up with the one who won.
This is the one that I hate the least, out of all harems, but it begs the question- why was this a harem in the first place? Just to hurt these other characters, or temporarily please the viewers at seeing the mc be ogled by many women before finally settling on one of them? Idk.

Well, my point is that harems are just painful to watch. The only reason people enjoy them is because perhaps they want to imagine themselves with a harem, but this is just.... wrong. Instead, I would much rather prefer the mc to have a single, focused love interest, or to not have one at all (Particularly in series where romance is not the focus).

This is just a rant. I'm sure many disagree with me, and I will be getting essays about the 'artistic meaning' and 'thought out character building' that composes a harem. Just, no.

This post is not referring to series which are dramas. Those are of their own genre, and completely focused on the drama itself- so I understand that. But, how many isekais do we see where the mc is surrounded by multiple women in love with him? More importantly, how many do we see that aren't like this? Very few. Why is this? It's clearly because there is a demand for it. People want it. People love it. But I, do not.

I had no idea that this is an unpopular opinon. I'd heard of this trope, but assumed it was little more than fetish material.

So either these stories are taking a lot from that, or there's a lot more fetish stuff than I thought.

Than I'll double down on this. I hate this trope. I hate amnesia. I hate the whole sh**y cornucopia of tropes like this.

This doesn't mean never have elements like this in your story; it means don't make them such a focus. Why does everything have to be classified by trope? It encourages endless cookie cutter copies I think.

But I am an upstart on this site, and do not know anything about the environment here.