What is the most perfect scumbag you have known?

Kenjona

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ass > boobs

it's a universal fact.
So which do you prefer:
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CheertheDead

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there are a ton of motives to use: success, fame, ambition, attention, strong feelings (love,hate,jelousy)
though imo money is the best of all. it's also the strongest the majority of people can relate to.

I tried but I failed. These are too redeemable and sometimes unbelievable for me. Thus, I want to understand it better by having some great examples that I can read about and see how the author design and express these characters that could make them believably evil.
 
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I tried but I failed. These are too redeemable and sometimes unbelievable for me. Thus, I want to understand it better by having some great examples that I can read about and see how the author design and express these characters that could make them believably evil.
Here's just a few characters off the top my head: jeoferry and ramsay from GOT. (probably got both names wrong) And of course Griffith from berserk
 

LilTV1155

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Charlotte and 5 disciples

They are protagonist characters. But they all act like villains with yandere tendencies that anyone with common sense would find terrifying and almost scummy if it wasn't for their pretty faces and heroine. They got no filters.
 
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CheertheDead

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You don't justify rapes and pointless slaughters.

besides the rape, he quite literally sacrificed all of his friends(family) for his ambition.

But Griffith has never considered those his family. He's only ever seen them as pawn. He has always longed for a place for himself which he describe as his kingdom and he wants to share the scenery of his dream/his kingdom to the one he saw as his friend. This person is Guts because unlike others, Guts see Griffith as who Griffith truly are, not some high/mighty leader or some smart mastermind. When Griffith showed Guts his dark side (when he asked Guts to kill that noble), Guts just doesn't really care. Guts saw Griffith as Griffith. He didn't have any great image about Griffith unlike any other in the band (those that didn't know the real Griffith and deify him as some ideal/perfect leader). Griffith genuinely believed that he can be himself in the presence of Guts and he feels relaxed, he treasured his companionship with Guts.

The only one he has ever desired in his whole life is Guts. Losing Guts wrecked him completely. This desire grew even greater than his ambition of having a country which explained why he didn't care anymore and sought comfort from the person that is most likely to accept him (beside Guts) which is the princess. Losing Guts is literally losing everything. His world is collapsing. He was realising his country which to him is possible but of all the ones he met his life there is no other than Guts. It shows just how devastated he was when he stop thinking about his dream.

Griffith finally came to term with losing a companion forever when he was locked in the dungeon and tortured for years. Out of all the character, you don't see Griffith showed more emotion to any single person more than Guts. He love Guts. He wanted Guts. He felt betrayed when Guts left him. He felt despair when he was powerless in stopping Guts. He threw all his effort out of the window when Guts left. He felt for Guts too much that the torture and despair turned his love to hatred.

When Guts returned, he was angry, he hated Guts. He blamed Guts for his loss of an able body, of his dream of having a country. Guts has no longer be his greatest desire on a conscious level. This led him to sacrifice everything to achieve his dream again which is the ascension to Godhand. Basically, Griffith was too hurt that he resolved to be extremist.

You know it best that Griffith cared little for Caska. All the time in the eclipse, Femto's eyes were on Guts. He raped Caska to spite Guts. It's his vengeance against Guts. He lost everything so now he want Guts to feel the same too.

When he got a new body, he did say he no longer see Guts as anything significant to him but unconsciously all of his feelings for Guts were still there. They have never gone. In his dream, he dreamed to be with Guts and others.

He was too redeemable and tragic. It was the same as when Lelouch unconsciously ordered Euphemia to massacre the Japanese. It's never because he was evil or because his motive was evil.
 
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But Griffith has never considered those his family. He's only ever seen them as pawn. He has always longed for a place for himself which he describe as his kingdom and he wants to share the scenery of his dream/his kingdom to the one he saw as his friend. This person is Guts because unlike others, Guts see Griffith as who Griffith truly are, not some high/mighty leader or some smart mastermind. When Griffith showed Guts his dark side (when he asked Guts to kill that noble), Guts just doesn't really care. Guts saw Griffith as Griffith. He didn't have any great image about Griffith unlike any other in the band (those that didn't know the real Griffith and deify him as some ideal/perfect leader). Griffith genuinely believed that he can be himself in the presence of Guts and he feels relaxed, he treasured his companionship with Guts.

The only one he has ever desired in his whole life is Guts. Losing Guts wrecked him completely. This desire grew even greater than his ambition of having a country which explained why he didn't care anymore and sought comfort from the person that is most likely to accept him (beside Guts) which is the princess. Losing Guts is literally losing everything. His world is collapsing. He was realising his country which to him is possible but of all the ones he met his life there is no other than Guts. It shows just how devastated he was when he stop thinking about his dream.

Griffith finally came to term with losing a companion forever when he was locked in the dungeon and tortured for years. Out of all the character, you don't see Griffith showed more emotion to any single person more than Guts. He love Guts. He wanted Guts. He felt betrayed when Guts left him. He felt despair when he was powerless in stopping Guts. He threw all his effort out of the window when Guts left. He felt for Guts too much that the torture and despair turned his love to hatred.

When Guts returned, he was angry, he hated Guts. He blamed Guts for his loss of an able body, of his dream of having a country. Guts has no longer be his greatest desire on a conscious level. This led him to sacrifice everything to achieve his dream again which is the ascension to Godhand. Basically, Griffith was too hurt that he resolved to be extremist.

You know it best that Griffith cared little for Caska. All the time in the eclipse, Femto's eyes were on Guts. He raped Caska to spite Guts. It's his vengeance against Guts. He lost everything so now he want Guts to feel the same too.

When he got a new body, he did say he no longer see Guts as anything significant to him but unconsciously all of his feelings for Guts were still there. They have never gone. In his dream, he dreamed to be with Guts and others.

He was too redeemable and tragic. It was the same as when Lelouch unconsciously ordered Euphemia to massacre the Japanese. It's never because he was evil or because his motive was evil.
Well damn, I got the urge to reread berserk. Great analysis.

But my point still remains. Griffith didn't consider his band as friends, let alone family, but they did - at least most of them (I can't remember).
His actions happened all the same. He sacrificed people who considered him family and looked up to him. The downward spiral, starting with the princess, was of his own making.

Griffith is irredeemable. His actions are irredeemable. Do you think if he found someone he truly cared for and was faced with the option of sacrificing them to advance his ambition, he would hesitate? I would say no, he had already doomed the one he loves the most.
 

CheertheDead

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Well damn, I got the urge to reread berserk. Great analysis.

But my point still remains. Griffith didn't consider his band as friends, let alone family, but they did - at least most of them (I can't remember).
His actions happened all the same. He sacrificed people who considered him family and looked up to him. The downward spiral, starting with the princess, was of his own making.

Griffith is irredeemable. His actions are irredeemable. Do you think if he found someone he truly cared for and was faced with the option of sacrificing them to advance his ambition, he would hesitate? I would say no, he had already doomed the one he loves the most.

To this point, i am still unsure if what he said in chapter 364 is about his feelings or that of the child so i can not be sure.

1st theory is that he felt the warmth familiar is because when Griffith sleep, the child’s persona awake and took their control. The feeling of longing that quickly disappeared when Griffith gave a tear is that of the child and not his. This is supported by the child’s strong feeling for Caska. Caska is the only one that has strong connection with her mutated child and not Guts. The child’s interaction with Guts is more about exploration than having a strong bond which is the opposite of Griffith who put Guts above anything else. If this theory is true, the current Griffith is a complete bastard now. However, there is still ways for him to go back and redeem himself. If through the child he came to understand his companionship of Guts is what he truly want and not his ambition then he can still go back.

2nd theory is that it is Griffith-child’s true feeling since they are one now. The conclusion about whether he can be redeemed is the same as i told above.

The thing is Griffith only sacrificed his band and Guts after he felt Guts betrayed him and he is disabled now. It’s because he was put into this corner that he choose to sacrifice everything for his ambition. If he would be presented with the same choices but before Guts left him, I believe he would choose Guts and the band.

Also it seems i made a mistake. Griffith somehow has good connection with other members of the band. I remember this because back to the second arc when Guts fought with the count and the Count said he wanted to sacrifice Guts only to be denied by the Godhands. The Godhands explained that you can only sacrifice the one you hold dear. This would mean that for Griffith to be able to sacrifice the band they must have some meaning to Griffith.
 
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The Godhands explained that you can only sacrifice the one you hold dear. This would mean that for Griffith to be able to sacrifice the band they must have some meaning to Griffith.
Well, then I stand correct.

The thing is Griffith only sacrificed his band and Guts after he felt Guts betrayed him and he is disabled now. It’s because he was put into this corner that he choose to sacrifice everything for his ambition. If he would be presented with the same choices but before Guts left him, I believe he would choose Guts and the band.
You're still justifying his actions. It was his mistake. He felt that he was betrayed, but Guts didn't really do anything. He wasn't put in a corner; he put himself in a corner. It was his actions and mistakes that led him to his demise. His mistakes, his consequences. Yet the ones who suffered were the band.

If he would be presented with the same choices but before Guts left him, I believe he would choose Guts and the band.
Honestly, I'm not so sure about this. I think if there was an inkling of suspension that he would fail, he would have definitely chosen the sacrifice.

However, there is still ways for him to go back and redeem himself. If through the child he came to understand his companionship of Guts is what he truly want and not his ambition then he can still go back.
There is no going back. His band is dead. Guts went through, quite literally, hell. Casca is a shell of herself. And it was all because of him.
 

CheertheDead

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You're still justifying his actions. It was his mistake. He felt that he was betrayed, but Guts didn't really do anything. He wasn't put in a corner; he put himself in a corner. It was his actions and mistakes that led him to his demise. His mistakes, his consequences. Yet the ones who suffered were the band.
That’s the tricky part. What led one to act is one’s own feelings. Being an omniscient reader will make you think much more different from the one who is in the situation. You can’t really use your own value and knowledge to judge the choice of the character especially when said choice is about their own life. Their history is different and so are their way of thinking and personalities.
There is no going back. His band is dead. Guts went through, quite literally, hell. Casca is a shell of herself. And it was all because of him.
Redeem is not rewriting the past. It’s to take responsibility for one’s action, to apologize for one’s wrong doing, to beg for forgiveness, and to compensate for one’s action.
 
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You can’t really use your own value and knowledge to judge the choice of the character especially when said choice is about their own life.
What's the point of reading a story then?

On the night of the eclipse, Griffith killed everyone he once held dear, his friends and his family, and raped the lover of the one he truly cared for.
It's irredeemable. How would you even go about retribution in this situation?
What made it much stronger is the reader's connection to the characters, as well as the ability to judge the situation for themselves. Would they also choose to sacrifice all their loved ones for promise of power and life? How would they love or hate a character without being able to judge them?
 

CheertheDead

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It's irredeemable. How would you even go about retribution in this situation?
Have him ask Guts to kill him?

What made it much stronger is the reader's connection to the characters, as well as the ability to judge the situation for themselves. Would they also choose to sacrifice all their loved ones for promise of power and life? How would they love or hate a character without being able to judge them?
I don't say you have to like him or not. Beside, whether we like or hate a character is very irrelevant to whether what they've done is right or wrong from their perspective/situation. Morality is not an universal rule. Even in our real world what is right or wrong varied from culture to culture, place to place.

"the reader's connection to the characters, as well as the ability to judge the situation for themselves. Would they also choose to sacrifice all their loved ones for promise of power and life?"

This is where it is the most controversial. First of all, our connection and ability to relate to a character's situation is not absolute. We are not them, we do not have their story or history. We only have a certain level of confidence in our ability to understand a character. We didn't even get to fully understand all of Griffith yet and I expect there would be more in later arcs.

Thus, our insufficient understandings affect our ability to judge the character in their situation. This leads to disagreement in the fandom about how one would feel about a character. Took Yashamaru from Naruto for an instances for hundreds of chapters, we thought he was just hate Gaara and wanted to avenge his sister. It was only later that we get to know more about his reason which in some ways make it more rational.

More importantly, Griffith never choose the promise of power and life. He choose his dream. He choose to chase after his dream with all his might regardless whatever he has to sacrifice because he has been hurt before. He didn't trust Guts anymore and if the one he love more than anyone can not be trusted, it isn't far-fetched to understand why he didn't want to risk another chance. The one incident affected his way of thinking more than we could imagine which in itself is the testimony to how strong their bond is and how much Griffith feel about Guts. For me, it is only revealed after thinking about the story for a decade. It made sense to me. It's a lot of character development (be it in a good or bad way).
 

AKnightWithaKnife

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If I’m gonna to be honest Disney’s classic villains are the perfect scumbags. They are so scummy while at the same time make you laugh. It’s a shame they removed villains from their films, now all of them just feel the same
 
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