What's your opinion on this kind of time loop in a story?

Ununique

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So you know those stories where the main character is someone that got to the end of their story and suddenly gets the opportunity for a second chance to make things right? For example: Tsuyokute New Sage, Tales of Demons and Gods, Master Magic Efficiently, and A Returner's Magic Should Be Special

Do you ever think the story should've shown us the original timeline instead of just skip to the end only to thrust us back to the beginning where they can just asspull characters that the main character may know but are completely unknown to the audience and in worse cases place the protagonist in a position where they don't know something would happen despite living through the event beforehand. (In fact we aren't even told what happened originally in such cases at all either so we don't know if the new(?) event was caused by the mc or not.)

Now for the questions I actually want an answer to (the first couple were sort of rhetorical), say I write a story where you follow the main character throughout the entire journey and get to the end only for them to find out they messed up big (whether it was their fault or not) and got the worst possible ending (that is they have already been looping in shorter intervals to mitigate minor conflicts but the overarching conflict is seemingly inevitable.), but the only way to avoid this end is to go back to a beginning, one that is even further in the past than when the story originally started. Would this seem like a spectacular fail (As in you feel the story would suddenly feel like you wasted your own time)? If you were to read it yourself would this cause you to drop the story? And finally does it matter that this route makes the original timeline obsolete as you would be following virtually the same plot once you reach the original start of the story but with a more powerful mc and allies?
 

Paul_Tromba

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So you basically want to know whether someone would enjoy a Rezero style story but instead of them going back only a few days they go back to before the story even starts to try again? This could be good so long as you have the MC change things early on the second time around so that the plot shifts completely. If it's all the same stuff then it would get repetitive and boring by a certain point. so long as you explain that it will be different then I don't think that too many people would get mad. Especially if they like the characters. Perhaps, you should kill off several of the characters during the main story so that when MC goes back they can prevent certain people from dying. people who enjoyed those characters would probably be glad to see them again.
 

Leyligne

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It does sound too repetitive to maintain interest, but if the MC grows as a character and things shift from loop to loop enough, then it could work?

And yes, I find the asspulling in most return to the past stories annoying, too.
 

SailusGebel

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If it's executed well, I won't drop the story.
And finally does it matter that this route makes the original timeline obsolete as you would be following virtually the same plot once you reach the original start of the story but with a more powerful mc and allies?
This is where you are wrong.
 
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say I write a story where you follow the main character throughout the entire journey and get to the end only for them to find out they messed up big (whether it was their fault or not) and got the worst possible ending (that is they have already been looping in shorter intervals to mitigate minor conflicts but the overarching conflict is seemingly inevitable.), but the only way to avoid this end is to go back to a beginning, one that is even further in the past than when the story originally started.
This would either be an instant hook or an instant drop; depends on how it's executed.

Also your pp reminds me of butt welding.
 

SailusGebel

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Care to elaborate?
Butterfly effect. You can't expect the timeline to be the same. That's why reincarnation stories only show reincarnated timelines. It's easier to write that way. Imagine that 'character A' only survived in the first timeline because he had 'artifact A'. Now let's say that our mc is kind of intelligent. Our mc knows that 'artifact A' will help him save 'character B'. So he gets his hands on 'artifact a' and saves 'character B', but this, in turn, kills 'character A' AND 'character C'. And all of this intermixed, you need to think of how each and every change will affect the characters. Already established characters, artifacts, magic, and other things.
 

BlackKnightX

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So you know those stories where the main character is someone that got to the end of their story and suddenly gets the opportunity for a second chance to make things right? For example: Tsuyokute New Sage, Tales of Demons and Gods, Master Magic Efficiently, and A Returner's Magic Should Be Special

Do you ever think the story should've shown us the original timeline instead of just skip to the end only to thrust us back to the beginning where they can just asspull characters that the main character may know but are completely unknown to the audience and in worse cases place the protagonist in a position where they don't know something would happen despite living through the event beforehand. (In fact we aren't even told what happened originally in such cases at all either so we don't know if the new(?) event was caused by the mc or not.)

Now for the questions I actually want an answer to (the first couple were sort of rhetorical), say I write a story where you follow the main character throughout the entire journey and get to the end only for them to find out they messed up big (whether it was their fault or not) and got the worst possible ending (that is they have already been looping in shorter intervals to mitigate minor conflicts but the overarching conflict is seemingly inevitable.), but the only way to avoid this end is to go back to a beginning, one that is even further in the past than when the story originally started. Would this seem like a spectacular fail (As in you feel the story would suddenly feel like you wasted your own time)? If you were to read it yourself would this cause you to drop the story? And finally does it matter that this route makes the original timeline obsolete as you would be following virtually the same plot once you reach the original start of the story but with a more powerful mc and allies?
I don’t find anything wrong with the usual approach. Though, to make it as enjoyable as possible, you need to add lots and lots of flashbacks.

The story can start at the end, then loops back to the beginning, then the protagonist takes revenge. Those revenge things are the main point of such a story. We read because we want to see the protagonist takes revenge on those who have betrayed him and did something bad to him in the old timelines.

So, judging by its purpose, I think most stories did a darn good job already. But like I said, flashbacks are extremely important to make the readers hate the villains.

As for your approach; I think it’s fine. It doesn’t seem out of date if you just speed through all the revenges and don’t repeat the details that’s the readers already know.

But, let’s be honest here; that will make the ending feels rush, and even if you decide to go at it slowly again, it will be boring. So, I don’t recommend your approach, though, it’s fine if you wanna do it. 😒

All in all, it’s fine no matter how you do it, but—just don’t lose the momentum. Keep the story moving forward and don’t leave any chances for the readers to leave.

———

Oh, also, let me further my point.

The main purpose of this kind of story is, “Wish-fulfillment.”

Put it simply, the wish-fulfillment where the protagonist gets a cheat (the past timelines’ memories) and uses it to triumph. The main point of such story is wish-fulfillment.

So, if you start at the beginning, then loop back in time at the later part of the story, then it will take almost the entire story before the readers can get the wish-fulfillment.

It will kill the story’s purpose completely.

Though, you can still write it if you don’t care about wish-fulfillment, but let’s be honest here, people read web novels mostly for wish-fulfillment. So, I don’t think it will be a good idea to not have one here.
 
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CupcakeNinja

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Now for the questions I actually want an answer to (the first couple were sort of rhetorical), say I write a story where you follow the main character throughout the entire journey and get to the end only for them to find out they messed up big (whether it was their fault or not) and got the worst possible ending (that is they have already been looping in shorter intervals to mitigate minor conflicts but the overarching conflict is seemingly inevitable.), but the only way to avoid this end is to go back to a beginning, one that is even further in the past than when the story originally started. Would this seem like a spectacular fail (As in you feel the story would suddenly feel like you wasted your own time)? If you were to read it yourself would this cause you to drop the story? And finally does it matter that this route makes the original timeline obsolete as you would be following virtually the same plot once you reach the original start of the story but with a more powerful mc and allies?
Meh, im already in the middle of writing a story like that. MC is gonna end up in a majorly fucked situation then have to start from square one again.

Anyway, things like that only work if this second chance thing isn't in the actual premise itself or isn't something that takes too long to get to. Otherwise people will be impatient for it.
 

Ununique

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Meh, im already in the middle of writing a story like that. MC is gonna end up in a majorly fucked situation then have to start from square one again.

Anyway, things like that only work if this second chance thing isn't in the actual premise itself or isn't something that takes too long to get to. Otherwise people will be impatient for it.
Yeah that was the thing I was pretty much asking, if it mattered too much for the new start not to be the actual premise but rather a way of overcoming the roadblock the mc arrives at before reaching the end.
 

K5Rakitan

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The genre sounds like wish fulfillment for people who have made choices they regret. I regret very little in my life, so this particular form of wish fulfillment doesn't appeal to me. I just want to date the Kaiba brothers.
 

Aouliuo

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Certainly an interesting idea. Can't say I'd recommend executing it, seeing as I doubt very few of us on this site could pull it off.

You might be able to, but it would require a few (well done) things, just to name a few from the top of my head:
  • An apocalyptic end that is absolutely unavoidable with the current events in the 'verse, not something that being smarter or luckier could have avoided (otherwise it's a cop-out).
  • An audience that hates that apocalyptic ending, but not enough to rage quit the book.
  • Early divergence from the previous plot + lots of butterfly effect (as mentioned above).
  • A sense of change-- since you'd be 'deleting' all the plot, this needs to be emotionally/morally/whatever else progressive or regressive. Even before the book effectively resets, this needs to be the focus for all the stuff after to be meaningful.
  • A venture into another realm of worldbuilding that somehow hasn't been explored yet but still makes logical sense.
  • A good MC and good supporting characters.
 

FallingLeaf

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Not sure if this is the same concept of what you're talking about, but there are also some games that have a time loop type thing you have to play though. Like-run 1 is bad ending, then game loops to run 2 where maybe they try things differently and different things happen (sometimes for no actual reason) and the bosses are often refought, then run 3, etc. until finally some golden timeline happens where the main characters succeed in their goal(s). Note-this is different from New Game+ type things since in this game the characters are aware of the time loops and actively trying to fix things
 

Ununique

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Certainly an interesting idea. Can't say I'd recommend executing it, seeing as I doubt very few of us on this site could pull it off.

You might be able to, but it would require a few (well done) things, just to name a few from the top of my head:
  • An apocalyptic end that is absolutely unavoidable with the current events in the 'verse, not something that being smarter or luckier could have avoided (otherwise it's a cop-out).
  • An audience that hates that apocalyptic ending, but not enough to rage quit the book.
  • Early divergence from the previous plot + lots of butterfly effect (as mentioned above).
  • A sense of change-- since you'd be 'deleting' all the plot, this needs to be emotionally/morally/whatever else progressive or regressive. Even before the book effectively resets, this needs to be the focus for all the stuff after to be meaningful.
  • A venture into another realm of worldbuilding that somehow hasn't been explored yet but still makes logical sense.
  • A good MC and good supporting characters.
Definitely made note of things like this but didn't quite have as much detail in the outline as what your response has for me to bear in mind. Thanks.

Not sure if this is the same concept of what you're talking about, but there are also some games that have a time loop type thing you have to play though. Like-run 1 is bad ending, then game loops to run 2 where maybe they try things differently and different things happen (sometimes for no actual reason) and the bosses are often refought, then run 3, etc. until finally some golden timeline happens where the main characters succeed in their goal(s). Note-this is different from New Game+ type things since in this game the characters are aware of the time loops and actively trying to fix things
Yeah this is pretty much what I had in mind but with some serious sacrifice and risk being taken on the part of the protagonist to achieve that golden timeline, and it's actually the opposite of a new game+ because in this case part of the risk is the character being more proactive at a point in time where they are far weaker.
 

Akivien

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Mirror timeline, you start from the same point but walk the opposite direction.
 

Ununique

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I don’t find anything wrong with the usual approach. Though, to make it as enjoyable as possible, you need to add lots and lots of flashbacks.

The story can start at the end, then loops back to the beginning, then the protagonist takes revenge. Those revenge things are the main point of such a story. We read because we want to see the protagonist takes revenge on those who have betrayed him and did something bad to him in the old timelines.

So, judging by its purpose, I think most stories did a darn good job already. But like I said, flashbacks are extremely important to make the readers hate the villains.

As for your approach; I think it’s fine. It doesn’t seem out of date if you just speed through all the revenges and don’t repeat the details that’s the readers already know.

But, let’s be honest here; that will make the ending feels rush, and even if you decide to go at it slowly again, it will be boring. So, I don’t recommend your approach, though, it’s fine if you wanna do it. 😒

All in all, it’s fine no matter how you do it, but—just don’t lose the momentum. Keep the story moving forward and don’t leave any chances for the readers to leave.

———

Oh, also, let me further my point.

The main purpose of this kind of story is, “Wish-fulfillment.”

Put it simply, the wish-fulfillment where the protagonist gets a cheat (the past timelines’ memories) and uses it to triumph. The main point of such story is wish-fulfillment.

So, if you start at the beginning, then loop back in time at the later part of the story, then it will take almost the entire story before the readers can get the wish-fulfillment.

It will kill the story’s purpose completely.

Though, you can still write it if you don’t care about wish-fulfillment, but let’s be honest here, people read web novels mostly for wish-fulfillment. So, I don’t think it will be a good idea to not have one here.
Well the vengeance isn't the purpose of the loop (It's not redo of healer levels at least) the point is for the character to acquire more cheats to successfully get their happy ending, the story already shows the character begin with a cheat then later they received another cheat in order to perform this ultimate cheat in order to cheat their way into becoming the one true cheater and live happily ever after.
 

BlackKnightX

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Well the vengeance isn't the purpose of the loop (It's not redo of healer levels at least) the point is for the character to acquire more cheats to successfully get their happy ending, the story already shows the character begin with a cheat then later they received another cheat in order to perform this ultimate cheat in order to cheat their way into becoming the one true cheater and live happily ever after.
That‘s why I added below, the point of the story is “wish-fulfillment”.
 

Ununique

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That‘s why I added below, the point of the story is “wish-fulfillment”.
Yeah that's why i specified their main cheat or cause of wish fulfillment is given at the beginning as opposed to the loop and triumph itself being the cheat and therefore element of wish fulfillment. Regardless this all gets convoluted since I'm leaving it intentionally vague.
 

BlackKnightX

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Yeah that's why i specified their main cheat or cause of wish fulfillment is given at the beginning as opposed to the loop and triumph itself being the cheat and therefore element of wish fulfillment. Regardless this all gets convoluted since I'm leaving it intentionally vague.
Of course, the loop back in time and get revenge is just one of the examples. I used it since it seems to be the most common one in this type of story.

But the point still remains clear, “wish-fulfillment,” and there are a lot of ways to deliver this.

Thanks for further the point, though.
 

Temple

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Webnovels readers go by their preferences for plot depending on what they're looking for. Like discussed above, wish fulfilment usually. The point of these redo stories is because people have regrets. Revenge stories are so popular because people want to have revenge on people in their real life but obviously can't do it, so they have catharsis through stories. Escapism with isekai, power fantasy with OP MC stories, or cheat abilities, etc. I mean, all of those blend together now, and like mentioned it boils down to wish fulfilment.

Going back to redo stories, they usually start with the redo itself, or moments after something bad happened that will trigger the redo, usually MC getting betrayed, the bad guys winning, or doing whatever that is they needed to fix in a redo. What you're planning is going through the entire story before giving what the readers of that genre are looking for, the redo.

This can work, and I believe this can be good if executed well. What you need to do though is that you shouldn't market this as a redo story because you'll get rated down to hell by not following the "template" of redo. Just like isekai has a "template". Just completely divorce yourself from that. And you also need a compelling MC to carry the story. Usually, in webnovels, it doesn't need a really good MC because the plot carries itself (if people want dungeon core for example, they'll read it if the story is okay even if the MC is just meh). Since you're not doing the "template" need to have a good MC to carry it.

I think a good example of this is the manga Scribe who retired to the country side. It's a martial arts story, so the "template" for the OP MC plot here is the MC is a hidden master, and he gets into a situation where he's going to show off his skills. (Lots of variations of that opener, but same point of showing off OPness). BUT the author did an entire plotline on how he became a hidden master in the first place, as in starting from zero skills. He didn't start with skills then explaining why this guy is hidden, NO, he started from zero.

That story was trashed by people who expected the "template".

Turns out, the origin story is pretty cool. I haven't seen anything like it. I really liked that long origin story. And people warmed up to it eventually. Unfortunately, probably the author got pressured before that after the origin story, it just devolved into the usual OP MC story, which is the reason I don't like it now.

Anyway, my point there is if you're doing something different, prepare to get trashed by the mainstream crowd, although people here in SH are way chiller than RR for example, so maybe not trashed but just less following. And since you're doing something different, don't go back to the "template" and use it after the "origin story", it's going to look bad.

Enough rambling from me, just sharing my thoughts.
 
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