Writing When Did Stats Become "Not Enough" ? (LItRPG-centered)

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I mean this for the LitRPG crowd, though anyone knowledgeable even in the slightest might have some sort of insight into this conundrum of mine.

So, my rant. Initially, whoever was badass in a MMO of RPG was dependent on how high your stats were, thus a higher level meant you were stronger. Their were and likely have always been exceptions where people who are naturally better at something, might still win even with level/stats difference. Like a level 25 defeats a level 30 or at most 35. Nothing crazy though like 25 beats 50 because...well the stats make up for that lack of skill on the level 50 guy. This is perfect. This is fine. I see no problem with this setup. You do more work, you get higher level, you upgrade your stats. Its about as fair as it gets. If you aren't willing to work for it, you won't improve.

Nowadays though, LItRPG's are getting overly complicated. Everyone I read nowadays, stats mean practically nothing. Everyone is mixing Daos into it, which apparently can offset a weakness in stats by gifting you a power move that blows everyone else out of the water regardless of your obvious baseline weakness in comparison. Or like Randidly Ghosthoud, not the best example, but his stories thing is "Images", which is in a sense, like a separate power source unrelated to stats, that make stats totally irrelevent in the grand scheme. You are level 500? Okay. Guy that is level 60 but has a "potent" image will still beat your ass. Thats bullshit and I don't understand it no matter how it is explained because it still should not be possible no matter how you word it. It's sheer plot armor and nothing else. NOTHING ELSE.

And man don't even get me started on Dao's. That's such a varied and complex issue though it can be used to complement stats, it's usually used to power boost people who are weaker in level/stats to be stronger than they should.

So anyway, my point in this, (hoping I made my point/rant even halfway understandable) is that, when did stats/level not become enough? Games, not all, but the vast majority, still follow this point. MMORPG's for the most part, except for a select few, base strength on your level and stats. Level 15 will get their arse whooped by level 30 or 40 or 50 and being "naturally better" will only do so much to bridge that gap in level and stats.

So, my LitRPG fans, when did stats not become enough?

My LitRPG, or similarity, that I'm working on, strength will be based on stats. The only addition will the possibility of a power move, something akin to "Goku learning Kamehameha Wave or the Spirit Bomb". But it won't be the sort of thing that makes you unbeateable as long as you can land it. It'll only complement and/or sharpen/enhance what you already have.

So again, when did stats stop being enough even though they are the fairest, and most typical way it's handled even now?

FYI, please, no one bring up people who "Pay To Win" because that's a separate issue that expands my topic further than I intend for it to go.
 

HonestMistake

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Stats stopped being enough when the wuxia and xianxua trend hit worldwide. A lot of LitRPGs are trying to include those elements and they just dont mix. Take Ghosthound for example. Ghosthound was an amazing LitRPG, about a man stuck outside the system carving his own path to power. Then the author turned it into a interdimensional xinxua. At this point, I stopped reading cause the story just wasn't doing it for me anymore. It turned into just another dime a dozen cultivation novel disguised as a LitRPG.
 

blazjindanblue

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When the authors got cought in the trap of grind. Like... "Please system, let the mc level up. Ten thousand skills unlocked, uh(*wipes brow*)" There is no choice. Time to press the red button. Release the nuke. Call the immortals. The broken lvl 99999999999... s
"Haha how do you like that system! No escape for you but to lvl up." "What! No what is happening! THE GRIND IT'S BACK"
Backs away. "No, no, no, no! I created you! You cannot turn on me. NOOOOOO!" Gets enslaved by exp sect.
 
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Stats stopped being enough when the wuxia and xianxua trend hit worldwide. A lot of LitRPGs are trying to include those elements and they just dont mix. Take Ghosthound for example. Ghosthound was an amazing LitRPG, about a man stuck outside the system carving his own path to power. Then the author turned it into a interdimensional xinxua. At this point, I stopped reading cause the story just wasn't doing it for me anymore. It turned into just another dime a dozen cultivation novel disguised as a LitRPG.
I agree. Xianxia/Wuxia just aren't for LitRPG. Xianxia is cancer anyway. I've yet to read one that doesn't fall into the very same pitiful tropes/plot failures. Defiance of the Fall is making that same awful mistake mixing LitRPg and cultivation. I wish it would just go back to Stats like it should have remained.
 

DarkWe

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When the authors got cought in the trap of grind. Like... "Please system, let the mc level up. Ten thousand skills unlocked, uh(*wipes brow*)" There is no choice. Time to press the red button. Release the nuke. Call the immortals. The broken lvl 99999999999... s
"Haha how do you like that system! No escape for you but to lvl up." "What! No what is happening! THE GRIND IT'S BACK"
Backs away. "No, no, no, no! I created you! You cannot turn on me. NOOOOOO!" Gets enslaved by exp sect.
Well that sums it up haha.
 

Thor

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Your rant is understandable. In my opinion, LitRPGs that are way to complex where stats dont matter in the end are trash. Also the numbers in most LitRPGs are way too inflated to grasp their meaning.

LitRPGs should be simple enough so reader can actually remember the stats/skills and gauge the strength of different characters.

Like you said, it should be possible for a lvl15 character to beat a lvl20 character. Its was possible in old rpgs like WoW for example. If you had extensive knowledge about classes and skills you could beat a lvl20 as lvl15. But it would be impossible to beat someone at 25-30 based on stats alone.
 
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Your rant is understandable. In my opinion, LitRPGs that are way to complex where stats dont matter in the end are trash. Also the numbers in most LitRPGs are way too inflated to grasp their meaning.

LitRPGs should be simple enough so reader can actually remember the stats/skills and gauge the strength of different characters.

Like you said, it should be possible for a lvl15 character to beat a lvl20 character. Its was possible in old rpgs like WoW for example. If you had extensive knowledge about classes and skills you could beat a lvl20 as lvl15. But it would be impossible to beat someone at 25-30 based on stats alone.
Yeah. And its become far more common to ignore stats altogether even though they'll take the time to calculate them and add them. If it doesn't matter in the end because Johnny's Super Duper Dao skill will cream you anyways....why even incorporate stats in the first place?
 

HonestMistake

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Your rant is understandable. In my opinion, LitRPGs that are way to complex where stats dont matter in the end are trash. Also the numbers in most LitRPGs are way too inflated to grasp their meaning.

LitRPGs should be simple enough so reader can actually remember the stats/skills and gauge the strength of different characters.

Like you said, it should be possible for a lvl15 character to beat a lvl20 character. Its was possible in old rpgs like WoW for example. If you had extensive knowledge about classes and skills you could beat a lvl20 as lvl15. But it would be impossible to beat someone at 25-30 based on stats alone.
Thats because its in a system run universe. Most of those tend toward actually being cultivation novels, just with a "system" overlay. I've found the novels that stick trur to stats are usually ones where someone gets transported to another world or into a game.
 

binarysoap

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I honestly haven't read any xianxia/wuxia LitRPG.

That being said, even without those, I rarely see a LitRPG where raw stats and levels are the primary indicator of who wins a fight. From a literary standpoint, that would be just boring. The MC can just appraise the enemy. Oh, the enemy has higher stats? Guess it's time to run. The enemy has lower stats? Guess I'll steamroll them without a sweat. All fight scenes would be boring.

Most LitRPG's I've read don't even really talk too much about the raw numbers of stats. Instead, they spend more of the time talking about skills, since that allows for a lot more creativity. The MC can come up with clever ways to apply skills in battle, etc, which is far more interesting than "My Str value is higher than your Def value, so I can cut you"

Is there even a LitRPG that concludes fights with only raw stats?

Also, a personal gripe. Raw stats are just meaningless number for the most part, since very few LitRPG authors will give you a forumla to calculate damage based on all the numbers they give you anyways.
 
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Thats because its in a system run universe. Most of those tend toward actually being cultivation novels, just with a "system" overlay. I've found the novels that stick trur to stats are usually ones where someone gets transported to another world or into a game.
Actually I see the introduction of a "System" as more of a reason to remain using Stats only as a strength signifier. I don't understand how cultivation got confused with System-run universes. Cultivation is more "natural and spiritual". Meditation and whatnot. System has no comparisons with cultivation accept for when it's forced to. Like it does now. System run universes should have the LEAST instances of cultivation.
 
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I honestly haven't read any xianxia/wuxia LitRPG.

That being said, even without those, I rarely see a LitRPG where raw stats and levels are the primary indicator of who wins a fight. From a literary standpoint, that would be just boring. The MC can just appraise the enemy. Oh, the enemy has higher stats? Guess it's time to run. The enemy has lower stats? Guess I'll steamroll them without a sweat. All fight scenes would be boring.

Most LitRPG's I've read don't even really talk too much about the raw numbers of stats. Instead, they spend more of the time talking about skills, since that allows for a lot more creativity. The MC can come up with clever ways to apply skills in battle, etc, which is far more interesting than "My Str value is higher than your Def value, so I can cut you"

Is there even a LitRPG that concludes fights with only raw stats?

Also, a personal gripe. Raw stats are just meaningless number for the most part, since very few LitRPG authors will give you a forumla to calculate damage based on all the numbers they give you anyways.
See, calculating stats for attack damage...thats overkill and a completely separate issue. Their are ways it can be kept to just simplistic stats. And if you're level 15, for example, you shouldn't be picking a fight with level 50 dude in the first place. I don't see it as boring, I see it as common sense. I don't understand how this can't be worked around either. It seems more like a weakness in the writer than in the idea itself. And now that its become common place, no one questions it.
 

AliceShiki

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If you find it boring when people make stats not matter... The make your stats matter~

That's all there is to it~
 

Thor

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I honestly haven't read any xianxia/wuxia LitRPG.

That being said, even without those, I rarely see a LitRPG where raw stats and levels are the primary indicator of who wins a fight. From a literary standpoint, that would be just boring. The MC can just appraise the enemy. Oh, the enemy has higher stats? Guess it's time to run. The enemy has lower stats? Guess I'll steamroll them without a sweat. All fight scenes would be boring.

Most LitRPG's I've read don't even really talk too much about the raw numbers of stats. Instead, they spend more of the time talking about skills, since that allows for a lot more creativity. The MC can come up with clever ways to apply skills in battle, etc, which is far more interesting than "My Str value is higher than your Def value, so I can cut you"

Is there even a LitRPG that concludes fights with only raw stats?

Also, a personal gripe. Raw stats are just meaningless number for the most part, since very few LitRPG authors will give you a forumla to calculate damage based on all the numbers they give you anyways.
Deciding on raw stats wouldnt be creative. But if you use stats in conjunction with skills it gets interesting. But the topic is more about stats not having any value. Why then have stats in the first place?
 

DragonMage18

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So, my LitRPG fans, when did stats not become enough?
When someone wanted to read a power fantasy...

Usualy whem skills suck as sword arts are included, it's not actualy the users skill the lvl measures, but rather how much they use the skill.
There is also the fact that in games, you are a lot more limited with the skill use than you would be irl.
Something that adds a new dimension to combat and strategies than there is in games.
Still, winning over something dubble or more your lvl should not happen unless it's the early stages and you got every advantage you can get.
 

NotaNuffian

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To be honest, the times where I see stats don't matter is in xianxia, where there are no stats except cultivation levels, where the author fucking handwaves shits like MC having mana pool or ki dan or something something 10 times larger than normal, thus he can beat anyone one or two levels above him because he has a better technique.

As for when a STR 50 beats a STR 100, normally the author will say shits like hitboxes, fighting techniques and other reality ensues shit that really did not shows its face earlier. Nowadays a super move (once again reserved for MC) is all you need to KO a high level jumbo.

Though I need to comment on Randidly is a bad example, the guy has a pokeworld inside of him to Plot Armor his way through.
 
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