When Your Good Guy Accidentally Turns Into A Good Villain

[TheEldritchGod]

So I was reading a story here, on a lark, and I won't say which one, but as I started reading it, I got annoyed with the 'Best Friend' of the MC. As It went on I got increasingly pissed off, but then I realized something.

I thought it was intentional.

And with that mind set, I reframed everything I read as the Best Friend was clearly the villain in this story and suddenly, it was brilliant. An excellent character study in a sociopath. The Fresh Faced, beautiful monster who manipulates everyone around them, the guy who was very good at appearing like your best friend, but actually was just using you. And I pointed this out. How the MC would SAY that the Best Friend had his back. How the mc would SAY the Best friend was always there for him.

but the keyword here is "say".

Time and time again, there were situations where the classic tropes of the Best Friend had a chance to SHOW he was a best friend, but never quite doing it. The truth was, when you looked at it from a neutral perspective, the "best friend" was actually the BANE of the MC's life and the center of most of his suffering, but the MC would instead get gaslighted into thinking it was his fault. I mean, the Best Friend couldn't even say the words "Thank You". The Best Friend set up a group chat behind the MC's back to mock him, and time and time again demonstrated that the "Best Friend" didn't care about anyone else's feelings.

I pointed this out.

I mean, DAMN. It has been a long time since I saw a Well Made VILLAIN. Ugh! SO perfect! Chef's Kiss! I loved that villain. LOVED HIM. I actual took notes. I fully intend to use many of those same traits in a villain I have planned for another story. He was a very well made BAD GUY. Mmm! Except...

He wasn't supposed to be a bad guy.

Ouch.

Yeah... Well... In my defense, it's Show, Not Tell. If you, the author, NEVER give a SINGLE EXAMPLE of the Best Friend being... you know... a friend, what am I supposed to think? I mean, would it kill the Best Friend to say, "Sorry for making your life a living hell to the point you had to change schools"? Or "Thank you for helping me out, even when it destroys your chances for happiness"? The MC might SAY they are best friends, but I never saw a single example of them BEING best friends. Or friends. Or the "best Friend" so much as acknowledging the many things the MC did for him. Is saying "Thanks" such a hard thing to say?

But that all said...

I'm not blaming the author here, but it does bring up a topic of discussion. Specifically:
It doesn't matter what you say, but how you say it.
It doesn't matter what you meant, but what your readers read.

Hey, I've done it. I've written a character one way and unfortunately had the readers take it an entirely different way. Stories I am glad are gone and buried in the depths of time, I assure you. But it does bring up the subject of PROTECTING YOUR CHARACTERS.

When you create a character, and you want to have them "act". Those actions are what matters to the reader. What a character does carries far more weight than the words the character says. Someone can SAY all sorts of evil shit, but when push comes to shove, if he dives into a pit of lava and shadowy death to save a kitten, you will have a positive opinion of the character because we look at the kitten he saved and give that much more weight then all the sarcasm and insults he heaped on the MC.

Conversely, if you have someone who is the "good guy" and everyone says he is the good guy, and he says good guy things, but when nobody is looking, he commits dastardly deeds, the reader is going to think, "Asshole."

Now, don't get me wrong. A story NEEDS antagonists. A bad guy isn't a bad thing. In fact, the goal should be to have Bad Guys people love to hate. It's easy to make a bad guy who is cartoonishly evil, or a rapist or slaver, or any one of a hundred actions that are a 'Step Too Far'. But making a bad guy who is subtle... who has a sharp tongue hidden behind a smile... that's not easy. That's hard to do. I admire an author who can pull that off.

The problem is, we, as authors, can fall into the trap of writing a character, thinking he is 'good', but never showing the audience that he is 'good'. One dimensional characters only need a few lines for the reader to slot them into a pigeon hole, but a main character, or the secondary characters who orbit around him, will be judged on how they act. Simply telling the reader such a character is 'X', is not enough. You have to give at least one example of the Character being 'X', or the reader might not see them that way.

I am bringing this up, because I cannot help but notice that the popularity of said story seems to have declined over time, judging by the number of likes per chapter. I imagine that perhaps the readers might have been like me. Over time they started to get increasingly annoyed with the "Best Friend" and the way the MC and the "Best Friend" were interacting was... well... increasingly annoying. I would have quit reading entirely if I had not came to the conclusion that the "Best Friend" was a Beautiful Subversion of expectations.

An... ACTUAL... good subversion of expectations.

Not a subversion for subversions sake but one that looked like it was being set up from the very first chapter. I understand the author's intentions were different and that wasn't the case. However, I am the exception, not the rule. While I loved where the story was going, others actually accepted the author at face value and I suspect that might be why the number of likes was declining. If you accept the story at face value, then the Best Friend is just... an asshole and the MC is a doormat. He isn't a sociopath, he's just... a jerk. The MC is just too stupid to realize he's in a co-dependent relationship.

And watching someone getting abused... A situation where it is clear that this is never going to end... That isn't fun to read. Most readers won't bother telling you why they stopped reading, they'll just go away.

So what's my point?

Protect Your Characters.

If the Character is supposed to be evil, try to be evil in a 'cool' fashion. If he's supposed to be good, SHOW the reader he's good by DOING something good. Show him willing to sacrifice. This is where a second pair of eyes comes in. When you write something, if you feel that something might be taken one of two ways, assume it will be taken in the less than charitable fashion and make sure by asking someone to read it over. When someone comes to you with an interpertation you don't like, that's something you need to focus on.

You might think he's insane... but what if he's right? What if his opinion isn't the exception, but the rule?

For example,, when I wrote my first draft of HKN, I thought I did a good job of showing the MC a broken man who was at his lowest Ebb and just now starting to climb out of the pit he was in. In reality, I had put him in a pit so deep it was next to impossible for most people to read to the point where the story started to get good. I had quite a few readers who stuck it out, but I bet I lost 80% of my readers by chapter 20.

I did a bad job of protecting the Main Character.

So one one hand, you need to protect your character. It doesn't matter what the character says, or what others say about him, but what the character does. Make sure he doesn't do anything unforgivable. (Unless he's supposed to be hated and unforgivable, then go for it.)

But what if you have already 'done screwed up'?

Well, you have a few options. I have to take option 1: Take down the story and rewrite it so as to not make the MC so unlikable. I'm in the process of rewriting HKN as we speak.

Option 2 is to fix things going forward. In the above example of the "Best Friend" and MC Doormat, you could fix it with a Flashback, or put the MC in a bad situation and have the "Best Friend" swoop in and save the day. Suddenly we have a case of the Best friend being a best friend and we finally, as readers, know why these guys hang out with each other.

However, what if you have gone too far? What if something the "Best friend" has done is so terrible, the audience could never forgive him? Well, then you got Option 3: Embrace the Evil.

If the Character has gone too far, then just go with the flow. You accidentally wrote him as a bad guy, so embrace the bad guy. Then you have two more options, a redemption arc (and who doesn't love a redemption arc?), or the bad guy gets his comeuppance. It could be something like the best Friend gets burned alive, or something as simple as the MC saying, "You know what? You are toxic as fuck. I have done nothing but suffer since you entered my life. I would be so much better if we had never met." And walks away.

That would give the MC a chance to grow while letting the "best friend" experience what it was like to NOT have the MC in his corner. After all, you don't know what you had until it's gone. Great way to develop a character.

Anyways, Just something I wanted to bring up. A lesson I have learned the hard way that I wanted to share.


Good luck and good writing,
Bob

 

[Macha]

 

[TheEldritchGod]

Heh.

I wish. I really do. Alas, I fear that it was an accident, at least as far as Said Story is concerned. I fear I might have hurt the author's feelings. I mean, I LOVE the "best Friend" as an Antagonist/Villain. I mean it. Wonderful. Just... so good. I am totally stealing it, regardless of it being intentional or not.

But... after shooting my mouth off, I fear that the author actually thought he was writing a Bromance for the ages.

 

[SakeVision]

deep thoughts

 

[BigBadBoi]

So you vasically ranted about some best friend character that is just an asshole. If this story was famous the best friend would be popular because deranged fujos would salivate over this power dynamic like a pitbull seeing an unsupervised toddler. Might as well make it a BL novel at this point.

 

[Ilikewaterkusa]

So I was reading a story here, on a lark, and I won't say which one, but as I started reading it, I got annoyed with the 'Best Friend' of the MC. As It went on I got increasingly pissed off, but then I realized something.

I thought it was intentional.

And with that mind set, I reframed everything I read as the Best Friend was clearly the villain in this story and suddenly, it was brilliant. An excellent character study in a sociopath. The Fresh Faced, beautiful monster who manipulates everyone around them, the guy who was very good at appearing like your best friend, but actually was just using you. And I pointed this out. How the MC would SAY that the Best Friend had his back. How the mc would SAY the Best friend was always there for him.

but the keyword here is "say".

Time and time again, there were situations where the classic tropes of the Best Friend had a chance to SHOW he was a best friend, but never quite doing it. The truth was, when you looked at it from a neutral perspective, the "best friend" was actually the BANE of the MC's life and the center of most of his suffering, but the MC would instead get gaslighted into thinking it was his fault. I mean, the Best Friend couldn't even say the words "Thank You". The Best Friend set up a group chat behind the MC's back to mock him, and time and time again demonstrated that the "Best Friend" didn't care about anyone else's feelings.

I pointed this out.

I mean, DAMN. It has been a long time since I saw a Well Made VILLAIN. Ugh! SO perfect! Chef's Kiss! I loved that villain. LOVED HIM. I actual took notes. I fully intend to use many of those same traits in a villain I have planned for another story. He was a very well made BAD GUY. Mmm! Except...

He wasn't supposed to be a bad guy.

Ouch.

Yeah... Well... In my defense, it's Show, Not Tell. If you, the author, NEVER give a SINGLE EXAMPLE of the Best Friend being... you know... a friend, what am I supposed to think? I mean, would it kill the Best Friend to say, "Sorry for making your life a living hell to the point you had to change schools"? Or "Thank you for helping me out, even when it destroys your chances for happiness"? The MC might SAY they are best friends, but I never saw a single example of them BEING best friends. Or friends. Or the "best Friend" so much as acknowledging the many things the MC did for him. Is saying "Thanks" such a hard thing to say?

But that all said...

I'm not blaming the author here, but it does bring up a topic of discussion. Specifically:
It doesn't matter what you say, but how you say it.
It doesn't matter what you meant, but what your readers read.

Hey, I've done it. I've written a character one way and unfortunately had the readers take it an entirely different way. Stories I am glad are gone and buried in the depths of time, I assure you. But it does bring up the subject of PROTECTING YOUR CHARACTERS.

When you create a character, and you want to have them "act". Those actions are what matters to the reader. What a character does carries far more weight than the words the character says. Someone can SAY all sorts of evil shit, but when push comes to shove, if he dives into a pit of lava and shadowy death to save a kitten, you will have a positive opinion of the character because we look at the kitten he saved and give that much more weight then all the sarcasm and insults he heaped on the MC.

Conversely, if you have someone who is the "good guy" and everyone says he is the good guy, and he says good guy things, but when nobody is looking, he commits dastardly deeds, the reader is going to think, "Asshole."

Now, don't get me wrong. A story NEEDS antagonists. A bad guy isn't a bad thing. In fact, the goal should be to have Bad Guys people love to hate. It's easy to make a bad guy who is cartoonishly evil, or a rapist or slaver, or any one of a hundred actions that are a 'Step Too Far'. But making a bad guy who is subtle... who has a sharp tongue hidden behind a smile... that's not easy. That's hard to do. I admire an author who can pull that off.

The problem is, we, as authors, can fall into the trap of writing a character, thinking he is 'good', but never showing the audience that he is 'good'. One dimensional characters only need a few lines for the reader to slot them into a pigeon hole, but a main character, or the secondary characters who orbit around him, will be judged on how they act. Simply telling the reader such a character is 'X', is not enough. You have to give at least one example of the Character being 'X', or the reader might not see them that way.

I am bringing this up, because I cannot help but notice that the popularity of said story seems to have declined over time, judging by the number of likes per chapter. I imagine that perhaps the readers might have been like me. Over time they started to get increasingly annoyed with the "Best Friend" and the way the MC and the "Best Friend" were interacting was... well... increasingly annoying. I would have quit reading entirely if I had not came to the conclusion that the "Best Friend" was a Beautiful Subversion of expectations.

An... ACTUAL... good subversion of expectations.

Not a subversion for subversions sake but one that looked like it was being set up from the very first chapter. I understand the author's intentions were different and that wasn't the case. However, I am the exception, not the rule. While I loved where the story was going, others actually accepted the author at face value and I suspect that might be why the number of likes was declining. If you accept the story at face value, then the Best Friend is just... an asshole and the MC is a doormat. He isn't a sociopath, he's just... a jerk. The MC is just too stupid to realize he's in a co-dependent relationship.

And watching someone getting abused... A situation where it is clear that this is never going to end... That isn't fun to read. Most readers won't bother telling you why they stopped reading, they'll just go away.

So what's my point?

Protect Your Characters.

If the Character is supposed to be evil, try to be evil in a 'cool' fashion. If he's supposed to be good, SHOW the reader he's good by DOING something good. Show him willing to sacrifice. This is where a second pair of eyes comes in. When you write something, if you feel that something might be taken one of two ways, assume it will be taken in the less than charitable fashion and make sure by asking someone to read it over. When someone comes to you with an interpertation you don't like, that's something you need to focus on.

You might think he's insane... but what if he's right? What if his opinion isn't the exception, but the rule?

For example,, when I wrote my first draft of HKN, I thought I did a good job of showing the MC a broken man who was at his lowest Ebb and just now starting to climb out of the pit he was in. In reality, I had put him in a pit so deep it was next to impossible for most people to read to the point where the story started to get good. I had quite a few readers who stuck it out, but I bet I lost 80% of my readers by chapter 20.

I did a bad job of protecting the Main Character.

So one one hand, you need to protect your character. It doesn't matter what the character says, or what others say about him, but what the character does. Make sure he doesn't do anything unforgivable. (Unless he's supposed to be hated and unforgivable, then go for it.)

But what if you have already 'done screwed up'?

Well, you have a few options. I have to take option 1: Take down the story and rewrite it so as to not make the MC so unlikable. I'm in the process of rewriting HKN as we speak.

Option 2 is to fix things going forward. In the above example of the "Best Friend" and MC Doormat, you could fix it with a Flashback, or put the MC in a bad situation and have the "Best Friend" swoop in and save the day. Suddenly we have a case of the Best friend being a best friend and we finally, as readers, know why these guys hang out with each other.

However, what if you have gone too far? What if something the "Best friend" has done is so terrible, the audience could never forgive him? Well, then you got Option 3: Embrace the Evil.

If the Character has gone too far, then just go with the flow. You accidentally wrote him as a bad guy, so embrace the bad guy. Then you have two more options, a redemption arc (and who doesn't love a redemption arc?), or the bad guy gets his comeuppance. It could be something like the best Friend gets burned alive, or something as simple as the MC saying, "You know what? You are toxic as fuck. I have done nothing but suffer since you entered my life. I would be so much better if we had never met." And walks away.

That would give the MC a chance to grow while letting the "best friend" experience what it was like to NOT have the MC in his corner. After all, you don't know what you had until it's gone. Great way to develop a character.

Anyways, Just something I wanted to bring up. A lesson I have learned the hard way that I wanted to share.


Good luck and good writing,
Bob

I see

 

[TheEldritchGod]

deep thoughts

Actually, as an example, I would point to "I Don't Love You Anymore" the Manga. Ugh. Such a beautiful case of the MC telling her Husband "I was the ideal wife and you treated me like trash. You want a divorce? YOU GOT IT." and then him finding out EXACTLY what he lost. And the great thing about it? It wasn't heavy handed. Very believable.

While it isn't a good example of what happens if your write a character wrong, it is a wonderful example of a secondary Character who thinks he was "the good guy" and it turns out he was a monster. And when he figures it all out, he has that moment where 'You could be a monster and get her back, or actually accept you fucked up and let go." And he FINALLY thought about someone else.

So, I don't hate him that much now.

I would point to it as an example of Option 3 done RIGHT.

So you vasically ranted about some best friend character that is just an asshole. If this story was famous the best friend would be popular because deranged fujos would salivate over this power dynamic like a pitbull seeing an unsupervised toddler. Might as well make it a BL novel at this point.

I don't want to get into details. I'm not here to slam the story. I'm truncating the example to only the parts that are relevant to the topic.

 

[TotallyHuman]

Koizumi Mahiru from dr2

 

[TheEldritchGod]

Koizumi Mahiru from dr2

Huh?

 

[BigBadBoi]

I don't want to get into details. I'm not here to slam the story. I'm truncating the example to only the parts that are relevant to the topic.

I actually agree that it would be great writing if it's all planned out but it would still be extremely frustrating to read about and many would drop it even if they're aware of this being intentional. Reminder that these are webnovels and entertainment is the first priority and a good story on top is only a plus.

 

[Zirrboy]

I strongly agree that words have more impact than actions, for me at least.

But good and evil (though this works for any character trait imo) also get some form of suspension of disbelief.
Unless you're unhappy with their respective actions or the story puts focus on it, I doubt you spend much time considering why the character acts the way they do.
Good person does good things because they're righteous or kind, villain does evil things because they're selfish or sadistic. You buy the premise even without any strong feelings about them.
But if those are the implicit baselines, any characterization against them will impact your sentiment.
A hero might suddenly feel like the most hypocritical person on earth because of a small misstep; a villain gives you stockholm levels of "aren't they actually good" for not picking the shittiest path available once.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

I actually agree that it would be great writing if it's all planned out but it would still be extremely frustrating to read about and many would drop it even if they're aware of this being intentional. Reminder that these are webnovels and entertainment is the first priority and a good story on top is only a plus.

Well, everyone had their version of entertainment. I am not big on BL or GL novels, but some people love them. Could I write one? Ehh... sure. I think I could, but not my thing. Now if you want a story that is a giant pile of tangled Christmas tree lights covered in cheese wiz and fire ants, ooo... I like that kind of story... if the author successfully untangles the story as well.

I really LIKED the story with the Sociopathic Best Friend. It's just it turns out the friend... isn't supposed to be a sociopath and supposedly they are best friends. Off camera. Long time ago. No. Really. He's always had the MC's back, even when the MC asked him for help and he could have helped but all he did was say, "Told you so. You should have listened to me, but you didn't."

Now, that's an excellent chance to show why the two hang out. Yes, the MC was told what to do and the MC didn't follow the advice. A friend doesn't tell you, "Told you so, Dumbass." A friend goes, "Told you so, and I knew you wouldn't listen to me, so HERE, I thought ahead, knowing you wouldn't listen to me. Here you go." and bails out the MC.

That's character development. A chance to show WHY they are together. That the Best Friend is actually GOOD for the MC and trying to teach them how to be better, when the MC is actually a flake.

But what actually happened was more along the lines of, "You are always telling me what to do, so I ignored you, and now I am paying the price for not listening to you. This wouldn't have happened if you weren't such a pompous ass all the time. I only ignored you out of a desire for independence." The situation as it actually unfolded, I am inclined to think the Best Friend is punishing the MC for Defiance. The MC is punished for not doing what he was told, not for being forgetful."

At least that's how I read the subtext. I can see how it might have been intended, but that other assumption is depending on one assuming the Best Friend has good intentions. If you assume he had BAD intentions, then the whole situation comes across as a power struggle.

I'm more bringing this up for other writers to think about and consider. Its a trap anyone, myself included, can fall into and one needs to keep it in mind if one wishes to be a good author with characters that are deeper than a damp sponge.

 

[TotallyHuman]

Huh?

What I think is an example of an unintentional bad guy

 

[TheEldritchGod]

I strongly agree that words have more impact than actions, for me at least.

But good and evil (though this works for any character trait imo) also get some form of suspension of disbelief.
Unless you're unhappy with their respective actions or the story puts focus on it, I doubt you spend much time considering why the character acts the way they do.
Good person does good things because they're righteous or kind, villain does evil things because they're selfish or sadistic. You buy the premise even without any strong feelings about them.
But if those are the implicit baselines, any characterization against them will impact your sentiment.
A hero might suddenly feel like the most hypocritical person on earth because of a small misstep; a villain gives you stockholm levels of "aren't they actually good" for not picking the shittiest path available once.

Oh. I agree. And the amount you have to "Show" the reader is vastly different. For example, if I have a squad of Paladins, I just have to go, "Ah. it is the noble Paladins of the order of the Goodie Two Shoes! Thank the gods you are here!"

Bam. The reader will accept they are the "good guys".

Or I just have to call someone Iago Machiavelli and describe him with a Snidely Whiplash mustache and BAM, Bad guy.

Third string character might also get by with being told, "He's a good guy" and then him remembering the FL's birthday.

A second string character however, if we are told he is Loyal and truthful and brave, If he gets in a situation where he has the chance to jump forward and BE Loyal Truthful and Brave, then he DOESN'T, the reader might start to wonder, "Wait a sec..." Oddly enough, you only need to do it once, then he can fall to the wayside. You showed him being 'good' once. Hes a secondary character, the reader will accept he doesn't need that much 'camera focus'.

But a character like MC's Best Friend, that's a character you need to show what he's like more than once. We are going to watch such a character closely. He can be a bad guy. He can be a good guy. What he cannot be is an Inconsistent Guy. If we are told one thing, but he acts another, that needs to be explained to the reader or it will create cognitive dissidence. Readers will put up with any amount of BS, but only if the BS makes SENSE. Internally at least.

For example, I have a Villain. Sado Kingo. He's the Rival for the MC in regards to a Girlfriend that the MC has no interest in. So he's not much of a threat. If suddenly Kingo started to go after the MC's REAL love interest, you might suddenly go, "What the fuck?" He's the MC's rival, but to suddenly switch targets for NO REASON, other than it is obviously because the plot demands it, then the reader is going to get pissed.

BUT, if I come up with a really GOOD reason why Sado Kingo suddenly changes targets and goes after who the MC is actually interested in, then the reader will more then likely go, "Oh... OH! Ohhhhh..." and what was basically an asshole thing to do, that would make Kingo "hated" suddenly becomes something the Reader could sympathize with, and thus is 'accepted'.

I suppose my point is, avoid making good for the sake of being good.

You want to make your characters internally consistent because that is what will keep your reader interested. In my headcannon, I changed a "Best Friend" into a "Best Frienemy". So, for me, the story was great because suddenly all this crap that made no sense, made sense. But if I had not done that with my headcannon, the story would have just pissed me off to the point where I stopped reading.

I actually wish every author out there the opportunity to become massively successful and write the stories that are the best they can imagine. I'm more bringing this up because, well, I don't know if it's talked about much. I notice people are very polite around here and follow the 'If I don't have anything good to say, I won't say anything at all' approach to reviews.

I like the nice people around here. I just wish, sometimes, you weren't so nice. If people had been a bit more rude, I would have figured out what was wrong with HKN 40 chapters sooner. For this reason, I feel the need to point out the lessons that will only be learned if someone is brutally honest to you and doesn't care about your feelings.

Well, I do care about people's feelings.
I just care about the quality of your writing more.

What I think is an example of an unintentional bad guy

AH. Thank you.

 

[ArcadiaBlade]

Every character is either good or evil, mainly from perspective of others.

Like, I could create even a villain through a harem MC from a best friend's perspective through how much of an asshole the MC is. Like....

Your character in your POV is the best friend who supported the MC in his love life and tries his best to ship him with the girl who both like each other.

Sounds cliche right?

Now add more cliche such as transfer student, sisters, idols and whatnot and boom! The harem cliche. That seems the normal thing right?

But in our MC's perspective, he suddenly felt off about how his best friend suddenly has a harem when he in fact wanted to be the girl he like at the begining, now seeing this feels wrong but the harem MC saw this as normal as time goes on.

See the difference now?

You can now believe that the harem MC be a manipulative guy who suddenly gains lots of bitches while he start out as average while his best friend tries to help him change to his normal self but denies that help because he got lots of bitches to play around.

 

[TheEldritchGod]

Every character is either good or evil, mainly from perspective of others.

The only perspective you need to worry about is the reader. You have a message. A meme, if you will. Is it getting to the reader as intended? It is a poor author who blames the audience for not "reading correctly". If they don't see things your way, YOU fucked up, the reader didn't read wrong.

Now, if you have an intended audience, and the current reader isn't part of that intended audience, don't worry about it. But if the reader IS the intended audience, and they hate what you wrote, or misunderstand what you wrote, it's your problem, not the readers.

Like, I could create even a villain through a harem MC from a best friend's perspective through how much of an asshole the MC is. Like....Your character in your POV is the best friend who supported the MC in his love life and tries his best to ship him with the girl who both like each other.

Sounds cliche right?

Actually... no. I have never read such a story, so to me, it would be "new". I mean, it's one of the basic 6 stories, yes, but as you describe it, nope, that's a new take to me. But, go on.

Now add more cliche such as transfer student, sisters, idols and whatnot and boom! The harem cliche. That seems the normal thing right?

Well, everything has been written before. There isn't anything new under the sun. There is new to you and new to me, but in the grand scale of humanity, no. So, in one sense, it's all normal. However, I have never done the harem in a story, although I have read about a few out of curiosity. I find them almost universally boring and unbelievable.

I know of four guys who tried the polyamorous thing. One ended in tears. One ended in a restraining order. One ended... poorly. The last one ended when one girl stabbed me repeatedly with the pointy end of a broken glass candle stick. Harems DO NOT WORK. At least in a western civilization based on abrahamic faith. Maybe they work in islamic countries. No clue about that, but if you are a human with a soul and empathy for other people, it ain't working, or... it's going to be so much drama, you will regret the idea.

The sex is just not worth it.

But in our MC's perspective, he suddenly felt off about how his best friend suddenly has a harem when he in fact wanted to be the girl he like at the begining, now seeing this feels wrong but the harem MC saw this as normal as time goes on.
See the difference now?

Sort of. I used to give counseling to people with body dysphoria. I can see how the MC might want to be a female the best friend was attracted to. Interesting twist on the subject.

You can now believe that the harem MC be a manipulative guy who suddenly gains lots of bitches while he start out as average while his best friend tries to help him change to his normal self but denies that help because he got lots of bitches to play around.

True. I'm more focusing on how it comes across to the reader, however.

You see, I have personal experiences talking people out of suicide and some clients I spent years trying to keep them alive. I didn't make a point of handing out my personal phone number to everyone, but there were a few people who had my personal Cell.

Now, I feel very strongly about certain topics because of this. It would be easy for me to say one line and have it carry great weight to me, but mean nothing to you. I would feel this one line explains EVERYTHING, but you might not get the emotional impact. As such, I might use that line to describe the relationship between an older man and a young girl who transitioned to being a boy at the age of 11. He spends years talking to the child, trying to help him come to terms with his life.

To you, it might seem like the old man is a groomer, when I intend it to appear as he cares about the child as his own son. Because I used that line, powerful to me, but not to you. It might seem to every reader I was describing a pervert who wants to fuck a kid as soon as he turns legal, when in reality I am describing an elderly man who desperately wants to help this child find a scrap of happiness.

If what I write comes across as "groomer", does it matter what I intended? Who's fault is it if you don't understand? I could not blame a reader for erring on the side of caution and wanting to protect a child from predators. In someone else's shoes, I might think the same way as the readers.

That's my point.

As the author, we must be mindful of our reader's PoV. If we fail to do so, we have to fix it. In an on going serial story, that can be tough. Words can hurt. Words can destroy. Words can heal. Words can change everything.

This is a discussion about how to keep a particular pitfall in mind, how to avoid it, and what to do if you find yourself inside it.

I get the point of your example, but my focus is elsewhere.

 

[Schultz_von]

Spoiler

 

[Zirrboy]

Oh. I agree. And the amount you have to "Show" the reader is vastly different. For example, if I have a squad of Paladins, I just have to go, "Ah. it is the noble Paladins of the order of the Goodie Two Shoes! Thank the gods you are here!"

Bam. The reader will accept they are the "good guys".

Or I just have to call someone Iago Machiavelli and describe him with a Snidely Whiplash mustache and BAM, Bad guy.

Third string character might also get by with being told, "He's a good guy" and then him remembering the FL's birthday.

A second string character however, if we are told he is Loyal and truthful and brave, If he gets in a situation where he has the chance to jump forward and BE Loyal Truthful and Brave, then he DOESN'T, the reader might start to wonder, "Wait a sec..." Oddly enough, you only need to do it once, then he can fall to the wayside. You showed him being 'good' once. Hes a secondary character, the reader will accept he doesn't need that much 'camera focus'.

But a character like MC's Best Friend, that's a character you need to show what he's like more than once. We are going to watch such a character closely. He can be a bad guy. He can be a good guy. What he cannot be is an Inconsistent Guy. If we are told one thing, but he acts another, that needs to be explained to the reader or it will create cognitive dissidence. Readers will put up with any amount of BS, but only if the BS makes SENSE. Internally at least.

For example, I have a Villain. Sado Kingo. He's the Rival for the MC in regards to a Girlfriend that the MC has no interest in. So he's not much of a threat. If suddenly Kingo started to go after the MC's REAL love interest, you might suddenly go, "What the fuck?" He's the MC's rival, but to suddenly switch targets for NO REASON, other than it is obviously because the plot demands it, then the reader is going to get pissed.

BUT, if I come up with a really GOOD reason why Sado Kingo suddenly changes targets and goes after who the MC is actually interested in, then the reader will more then likely go, "Oh... OH! Ohhhhh..." and what was basically an asshole thing to do, that would make Kingo "hated" suddenly becomes something the Reader could sympathize with, and thus is 'accepted'.

I suppose my point is, avoid making good for the sake of being good.

You want to make your characters internally consistent because that is what will keep your reader interested. In my headcannon, I changed a "Best Friend" into a "Best Frienemy". So, for me, the story was great because suddenly all this crap that made no sense, made sense. But if I had not done that with my headcannon, the story would have just pissed me off to the point where I stopped reading.

I actually wish every author out there the opportunity to become massively successful and write the stories that are the best they can imagine. I'm more bringing this up because, well, I don't know if it's talked about much. I notice people are very polite around here and follow the 'If I don't have anything good to say, I won't say anything at all' approach to reviews.

I like the nice people around here. I just wish, sometimes, you weren't so nice. If people had been a bit more rude, I would have figured out what was wrong with HKN 40 chapters sooner. For this reason, I feel the need to point out the lessons that will only be learned if someone is brutally honest to you and doesn't care about your feelings.

Well, I do care about people's feelings.
I just care about the quality of your writing more.

AH. Thank you.

What I meant was that "deeds speak louder than words" isn't the only factor in the supposed friend's evil behavior standing out.
"Interesting" is by far not the only purpose for a character to exist. At the basest level, they can be projection surfaces for recognition and unconditional support.

As for the politeness: It takes a lot of effort to be rude in a way that doesn't seem like you're just throwing tantrums over things you didn't like.
If nothing else then because that's often the case. How often do you think "This is such a shitty twist and doesn't even make sense" compared to "it's plot driven, but better than the alternative"?

 

[CupcakeNinja]

So I was reading a story here, on a lark, and I won't say which one, but as I started reading it, I got annoyed with the 'Best Friend' of the MC. As It went on I got increasingly pissed off, but then I realized something.

I thought it was intentional.

And with that mind set, I reframed everything I read as the Best Friend was clearly the villain in this story and suddenly, it was brilliant. An excellent character study in a sociopath. The Fresh Faced, beautiful monster who manipulates everyone around them, the guy who was very good at appearing like your best friend, but actually was just using you. And I pointed this out. How the MC would SAY that the Best Friend had his back. How the mc would SAY the Best friend was always there for him.

but the keyword here is "say".

Time and time again, there were situations where the classic tropes of the Best Friend had a chance to SHOW he was a best friend, but never quite doing it. The truth was, when you looked at it from a neutral perspective, the "best friend" was actually the BANE of the MC's life and the center of most of his suffering, but the MC would instead get gaslighted into thinking it was his fault. I mean, the Best Friend couldn't even say the words "Thank You". The Best Friend set up a group chat behind the MC's back to mock him, and time and time again demonstrated that the "Best Friend" didn't care about anyone else's feelings.

I pointed this out.

I mean, DAMN. It has been a long time since I saw a Well Made VILLAIN. Ugh! SO perfect! Chef's Kiss! I loved that villain. LOVED HIM. I actual took notes. I fully intend to use many of those same traits in a villain I have planned for another story. He was a very well made BAD GUY. Mmm! Except...

He wasn't supposed to be a bad guy.

Ouch.

Yeah... Well... In my defense, it's Show, Not Tell. If you, the author, NEVER give a SINGLE EXAMPLE of the Best Friend being... you know... a friend, what am I supposed to think? I mean, would it kill the Best Friend to say, "Sorry for making your life a living hell to the point you had to change schools"? Or "Thank you for helping me out, even when it destroys your chances for happiness"? The MC might SAY they are best friends, but I never saw a single example of them BEING best friends. Or friends. Or the "best Friend" so much as acknowledging the many things the MC did for him. Is saying "Thanks" such a hard thing to say?

But that all said...

I'm not blaming the author here, but it does bring up a topic of discussion. Specifically:
It doesn't matter what you say, but how you say it.
It doesn't matter what you meant, but what your readers read.

Hey, I've done it. I've written a character one way and unfortunately had the readers take it an entirely different way. Stories I am glad are gone and buried in the depths of time, I assure you. But it does bring up the subject of PROTECTING YOUR CHARACTERS.

When you create a character, and you want to have them "act". Those actions are what matters to the reader. What a character does carries far more weight than the words the character says. Someone can SAY all sorts of evil shit, but when push comes to shove, if he dives into a pit of lava and shadowy death to save a kitten, you will have a positive opinion of the character because we look at the kitten he saved and give that much more weight then all the sarcasm and insults he heaped on the MC.

Conversely, if you have someone who is the "good guy" and everyone says he is the good guy, and he says good guy things, but when nobody is looking, he commits dastardly deeds, the reader is going to think, "Asshole."

Now, don't get me wrong. A story NEEDS antagonists. A bad guy isn't a bad thing. In fact, the goal should be to have Bad Guys people love to hate. It's easy to make a bad guy who is cartoonishly evil, or a rapist or slaver, or any one of a hundred actions that are a 'Step Too Far'. But making a bad guy who is subtle... who has a sharp tongue hidden behind a smile... that's not easy. That's hard to do. I admire an author who can pull that off.

The problem is, we, as authors, can fall into the trap of writing a character, thinking he is 'good', but never showing the audience that he is 'good'. One dimensional characters only need a few lines for the reader to slot them into a pigeon hole, but a main character, or the secondary characters who orbit around him, will be judged on how they act. Simply telling the reader such a character is 'X', is not enough. You have to give at least one example of the Character being 'X', or the reader might not see them that way.

I am bringing this up, because I cannot help but notice that the popularity of said story seems to have declined over time, judging by the number of likes per chapter. I imagine that perhaps the readers might have been like me. Over time they started to get increasingly annoyed with the "Best Friend" and the way the MC and the "Best Friend" were interacting was... well... increasingly annoying. I would have quit reading entirely if I had not came to the conclusion that the "Best Friend" was a Beautiful Subversion of expectations.

An... ACTUAL... good subversion of expectations.

Not a subversion for subversions sake but one that looked like it was being set up from the very first chapter. I understand the author's intentions were different and that wasn't the case. However, I am the exception, not the rule. While I loved where the story was going, others actually accepted the author at face value and I suspect that might be why the number of likes was declining. If you accept the story at face value, then the Best Friend is just... an asshole and the MC is a doormat. He isn't a sociopath, he's just... a jerk. The MC is just too stupid to realize he's in a co-dependent relationship.

And watching someone getting abused... A situation where it is clear that this is never going to end... That isn't fun to read. Most readers won't bother telling you why they stopped reading, they'll just go away.

So what's my point?

Protect Your Characters.

If the Character is supposed to be evil, try to be evil in a 'cool' fashion. If he's supposed to be good, SHOW the reader he's good by DOING something good. Show him willing to sacrifice. This is where a second pair of eyes comes in. When you write something, if you feel that something might be taken one of two ways, assume it will be taken in the less than charitable fashion and make sure by asking someone to read it over. When someone comes to you with an interpertation you don't like, that's something you need to focus on.

You might think he's insane... but what if he's right? What if his opinion isn't the exception, but the rule?

For example,, when I wrote my first draft of HKN, I thought I did a good job of showing the MC a broken man who was at his lowest Ebb and just now starting to climb out of the pit he was in. In reality, I had put him in a pit so deep it was next to impossible for most people to read to the point where the story started to get good. I had quite a few readers who stuck it out, but I bet I lost 80% of my readers by chapter 20.

I did a bad job of protecting the Main Character.

So one one hand, you need to protect your character. It doesn't matter what the character says, or what others say about him, but what the character does. Make sure he doesn't do anything unforgivable. (Unless he's supposed to be hated and unforgivable, then go for it.)

But what if you have already 'done screwed up'?

Well, you have a few options. I have to take option 1: Take down the story and rewrite it so as to not make the MC so unlikable. I'm in the process of rewriting HKN as we speak.

Option 2 is to fix things going forward. In the above example of the "Best Friend" and MC Doormat, you could fix it with a Flashback, or put the MC in a bad situation and have the "Best Friend" swoop in and save the day. Suddenly we have a case of the Best friend being a best friend and we finally, as readers, know why these guys hang out with each other.

However, what if you have gone too far? What if something the "Best friend" has done is so terrible, the audience could never forgive him? Well, then you got Option 3: Embrace the Evil.

If the Character has gone too far, then just go with the flow. You accidentally wrote him as a bad guy, so embrace the bad guy. Then you have two more options, a redemption arc (and who doesn't love a redemption arc?), or the bad guy gets his comeuppance. It could be something like the best Friend gets burned alive, or something as simple as the MC saying, "You know what? You are toxic as fuck. I have done nothing but suffer since you entered my life. I would be so much better if we had never met." And walks away.

That would give the MC a chance to grow while letting the "best friend" experience what it was like to NOT have the MC in his corner. After all, you don't know what you had until it's gone. Great way to develop a character.

Anyways, Just something I wanted to bring up. A lesson I have learned the hard way that I wanted to share.


Good luck and good writing,
Bob

it aint my job to protect anyone, tbh i dont care if people hate characters of mine. Sometimes there's things only i as the author know. Im fine with that.
Once you ignore what readers think, you wont worry about that whole thing. You show the characters as they are, or show them grow, and thats eiher good enough for the remaining reders or its not. What do i lose out of it? They dont pay my bills, mate.

Of course, if the goal is money then ignore this and sure, pick one of those options to try and keep your reader count as9high as you can make it.

But otherwise? Well you're worrying over something inconsequential. Personally, im too lazy to do that. Im already stressed enough since i quit weed to add one more problem to my mix.

Every character is either good or evil, mainly from perspective of others.

Like, I could create even a villain through a harem MC from a best friend's perspective through how much of an asshole the MC is. Like....

Your character in your POV is the best friend who supported the MC in his love life and tries his best to ship him with the girl who both like each other.

Sounds cliche right?

Now add more cliche such as transfer student, sisters, idols and whatnot and boom! The harem cliche. That seems the normal thing right?

But in our MC's perspective, he suddenly felt off about how his best friend suddenly has a harem when he in fact wanted to be the girl he like at the begining, now seeing this feels wrong but the harem MC saw this as normal as time goes on.

See the difference now?

You can now believe that the harem MC be a manipulative guy who suddenly gains lots of bitches while he start out as average while his best friend tries to help him change to his normal self but denies that help because he got lots of bitches to play around.

depends on the harem dude's personality. Is he an active flirt, or says things like that but isnt very aware of himself? Is he just the avarage dense mc who wins over women cuz kindness bullshit? I'd usually just call him an indecisive cunt if that last one, and for the others i'd call him out on it and tell him to wither knock of leading them along or to be more conscious of his actions. But thats the extent. I aint gonna think he's scummy, just an idiot.

but then again i aint the jealous or envious type, so for your average HS kid he'd probably feel different. I mean i'd still support the girl i liked but i'd tell her, "this dumbass has the emotional intelligence of a rock and can barely decide what flavor soda he wants at the vending machine...you should just move on, you'll probably keep getting hurt like this"

Because being popular isnt a sin but sometimes you gotta be real and find someone who makes you the priority and i've never minced words when it came to any love triangles my friends had gotten into. I've dealt with several instances of that, actually.

 

[aimless]

Heh.

I wish. I really do. Alas, I fear that it was an accident, at least as far as Said Story is concerned. I fear I might have hurt the author's feelings. I mean, I LOVE the "best Friend" as an Antagonist/Villain. I mean it. Wonderful. Just... so good. I am totally stealing it, regardless of it being intentional or not.

But... after shooting my mouth off, I fear that the author actually thought he was writing a Bromance for the ages.

I’m curious, what was the WN?