When Your Good Guy Accidentally Turns Into A Good Villain

JayDirex

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So I was reading a story here, on a lark, and I won't say which one, but as I started reading it, I got annoyed with the 'Best Friend' of the MC. As It went on I got increasingly pissed off, but then I realized something.

I thought it was intentional.

And with that mind set, I reframed everything I read as the Best Friend was clearly the villain in this story and suddenly, it was brilliant. An excellent character study in a sociopath. The Fresh Faced, beautiful monster who manipulates everyone around them, the guy who was very good at appearing like your best friend, but actually was just using you. And I pointed this out. How the MC would SAY that the Best Friend had his back. How the mc would SAY the Best friend was always there for him.

but the keyword here is "say".

Time and time again, there were situations where the classic tropes of the Best Friend had a chance to SHOW he was a best friend, but never quite doing it. The truth was, when you looked at it from a neutral perspective, the "best friend" was actually the BANE of the MC's life and the center of most of his suffering, but the MC would instead get gaslighted into thinking it was his fault. I mean, the Best Friend couldn't even say the words "Thank You". The Best Friend set up a group chat behind the MC's back to mock him, and time and time again demonstrated that the "Best Friend" didn't care about anyone else's feelings.

I pointed this out.

I mean, DAMN. It has been a long time since I saw a Well Made VILLAIN. Ugh! SO perfect! Chef's Kiss! I loved that villain. LOVED HIM. I actual took notes. I fully intend to use many of those same traits in a villain I have planned for another story. He was a very well made BAD GUY. Mmm! Except...

He wasn't supposed to be a bad guy.

Ouch.

Yeah... Well... In my defense, it's Show, Not Tell. If you, the author, NEVER give a SINGLE EXAMPLE of the Best Friend being... you know... a friend, what am I supposed to think? I mean, would it kill the Best Friend to say, "Sorry for making your life a living hell to the point you had to change schools"? Or "Thank you for helping me out, even when it destroys your chances for happiness"? The MC might SAY they are best friends, but I never saw a single example of them BEING best friends. Or friends. Or the "best Friend" so much as acknowledging the many things the MC did for him. Is saying "Thanks" such a hard thing to say?

But that all said...

I'm not blaming the author here, but it does bring up a topic of discussion. Specifically:
It doesn't matter what you say, but how you say it.
It doesn't matter what you meant, but what your readers read.

Hey, I've done it. I've written a character one way and unfortunately had the readers take it an entirely different way. Stories I am glad are gone and buried in the depths of time, I assure you. But it does bring up the subject of PROTECTING YOUR CHARACTERS.

When you create a character, and you want to have them "act". Those actions are what matters to the reader. What a character does carries far more weight than the words the character says. Someone can SAY all sorts of evil shit, but when push comes to shove, if he dives into a pit of lava and shadowy death to save a kitten, you will have a positive opinion of the character because we look at the kitten he saved and give that much more weight then all the sarcasm and insults he heaped on the MC.

Conversely, if you have someone who is the "good guy" and everyone says he is the good guy, and he says good guy things, but when nobody is looking, he commits dastardly deeds, the reader is going to think, "Asshole."

Now, don't get me wrong. A story NEEDS antagonists. A bad guy isn't a bad thing. In fact, the goal should be to have Bad Guys people love to hate. It's easy to make a bad guy who is cartoonishly evil, or a rapist or slaver, or any one of a hundred actions that are a 'Step Too Far'. But making a bad guy who is subtle... who has a sharp tongue hidden behind a smile... that's not easy. That's hard to do. I admire an author who can pull that off.

The problem is, we, as authors, can fall into the trap of writing a character, thinking he is 'good', but never showing the audience that he is 'good'. One dimensional characters only need a few lines for the reader to slot them into a pigeon hole, but a main character, or the secondary characters who orbit around him, will be judged on how they act. Simply telling the reader such a character is 'X', is not enough. You have to give at least one example of the Character being 'X', or the reader might not see them that way.

I am bringing this up, because I cannot help but notice that the popularity of said story seems to have declined over time, judging by the number of likes per chapter. I imagine that perhaps the readers might have been like me. Over time they started to get increasingly annoyed with the "Best Friend" and the way the MC and the "Best Friend" were interacting was... well... increasingly annoying. I would have quit reading entirely if I had not came to the conclusion that the "Best Friend" was a Beautiful Subversion of expectations.

An... ACTUAL... good subversion of expectations.

Not a subversion for subversions sake but one that looked like it was being set up from the very first chapter. I understand the author's intentions were different and that wasn't the case. However, I am the exception, not the rule. While I loved where the story was going, others actually accepted the author at face value and I suspect that might be why the number of likes was declining. If you accept the story at face value, then the Best Friend is just... an asshole and the MC is a doormat. He isn't a sociopath, he's just... a jerk. The MC is just too stupid to realize he's in a co-dependent relationship.

And watching someone getting abused... A situation where it is clear that this is never going to end... That isn't fun to read. Most readers won't bother telling you why they stopped reading, they'll just go away.

So what's my point?

Protect Your Characters.

If the Character is supposed to be evil, try to be evil in a 'cool' fashion. If he's supposed to be good, SHOW the reader he's good by DOING something good. Show him willing to sacrifice. This is where a second pair of eyes comes in. When you write something, if you feel that something might be taken one of two ways, assume it will be taken in the less than charitable fashion and make sure by asking someone to read it over. When someone comes to you with an interpertation you don't like, that's something you need to focus on.

You might think he's insane... but what if he's right? What if his opinion isn't the exception, but the rule?

For example,, when I wrote my first draft of HKN, I thought I did a good job of showing the MC a broken man who was at his lowest Ebb and just now starting to climb out of the pit he was in. In reality, I had put him in a pit so deep it was next to impossible for most people to read to the point where the story started to get good. I had quite a few readers who stuck it out, but I bet I lost 80% of my readers by chapter 20.

I did a bad job of protecting the Main Character.

So one one hand, you need to protect your character. It doesn't matter what the character says, or what others say about him, but what the character does. Make sure he doesn't do anything unforgivable. (Unless he's supposed to be hated and unforgivable, then go for it.)

But what if you have already 'done screwed up'?

Well, you have a few options. I have to take option 1: Take down the story and rewrite it so as to not make the MC so unlikable. I'm in the process of rewriting HKN as we speak.

Option 2 is to fix things going forward. In the above example of the "Best Friend" and MC Doormat, you could fix it with a Flashback, or put the MC in a bad situation and have the "Best Friend" swoop in and save the day. Suddenly we have a case of the Best friend being a best friend and we finally, as readers, know why these guys hang out with each other.

However, what if you have gone too far? What if something the "Best friend" has done is so terrible, the audience could never forgive him? Well, then you got Option 3: Embrace the Evil.

If the Character has gone too far, then just go with the flow. You accidentally wrote him as a bad guy, so embrace the bad guy. Then you have two more options, a redemption arc (and who doesn't love a redemption arc?), or the bad guy gets his comeuppance. It could be something like the best Friend gets burned alive, or something as simple as the MC saying, "You know what? You are toxic as fuck. I have done nothing but suffer since you entered my life. I would be so much better if we had never met." And walks away.

That would give the MC a chance to grow while letting the "best friend" experience what it was like to NOT have the MC in his corner. After all, you don't know what you had until it's gone. Great way to develop a character.

Anyways, Just something I wanted to bring up. A lesson I have learned the hard way that I wanted to share.


Good luck and good writing,
Bob
this is only good if the reader himself is gaslit into believing the best friend a good guy. outside of that it may be predictable. no?
 

Ruyi

༺ aureate sect ༻
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I actually wish every author out there the opportunity to become massively successful and write the stories that are the best they can imagine. I'm more bringing this up because, well, I don't know if it's talked about much. I notice people are very polite around here and follow the 'If I don't have anything good to say, I won't say anything at all' approach to reviews.

I like the nice people around here. I just wish, sometimes, you weren't so nice. If people had been a bit more rude, I would have figured out what was wrong with HKN 40 chapters sooner. For this reason, I feel the need to point out the lessons that will only be learned if someone is brutally honest to you and doesn't care about your feelings.

Well, I do care about people's feelings.
I just care about the quality of your writing more.

AH. Thank you.
i heard they're pretty direct on RR if that helps. i know that cnovel commenters (the raws, not the translations) can be absolutely ruthless about the smallest details (and also merciless to other readers if they think someone's making a mountain out of a molehill).

anyways, you. i like you and your words. talk more so i can read more.

subverting reader expectations is an art in itself. i love that feeling you get when you think you're walking the tried and true cliche until bang! author rips the rug out from beneath your feet and throws you into a bed of spikes. or a bed of roses, depending on genre.
 

TheEldritchGod

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What I meant was that "deeds speak louder than words" isn't the only factor in the supposed friend's evil behavior standing out.
"Interesting" is by far not the only purpose for a character to exist. At the basest level, they can be projection surfaces for recognition and unconditional support.
Then I suppose we will have to disagree in this regards.

How often do you think "This is such a shitty twist and doesn't even make sense" compared to "it's plot driven, but better than the alternative"?
I... don't often think either very often, honestly. I suppose the first, because all stories should be plot driven.

I’m curious, what was the WN?
I'm not here to slam someone's writing. I'd prefer if it remained vague and the author can, if they stumble upon this thread, take it an an apology. Alas, they blocked me, so I cannot just inform them.


it aint my job to protect anyone, tbh i dont care if people hate characters of mine. Sometimes there's things only i as the author know. Im fine with that.
I don't see a need to protect people from the truth, but my actions still have consequences.

Once you ignore what readers think, you wont worry about that whole thing. You show the characters as they are, or show them grow, and thats eiher good enough for the remaining reders or its not. What do i lose out of it? They dont pay my bills, mate.
Readers are not the same as audience. Two different things. Anyone can be a reader, but a story is made for a particular audience. YOU might be the only target of your audience, and it sounds like that's how you write. Good for you. No problem with that. Some stories are made with a particular audience (a subset of the group, readers) and as such, you should worry about how your message comes across to them.

Of course, if the goal is money then ignore this and sure, pick one of those options to try and keep your reader count as9high as you can make it.
If the goal is to give someone an idea, then you should worry just as much if you were doing it for money.

But otherwise? Well you're worrying over something inconsequential. Personally, im too lazy to do that. Im already stressed enough since i quit weed to add one more problem to my mix.
And no reason you should have to worry about it.
 

Zirrboy

Fueled by anger
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Jan 25, 2021
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Then I suppose we will have to disagree in this regards.
Not saying you have to like them, I know I don't if it's too blatant, but wish fulfillment is a thing not just for love or power.
You add a loyal, slightly less great friend who then praises the MC and assists them in need.
Internal consistency and all that are nice, but from my personal experience reading web novels, this isn't a common priority.

If you want authors to improve, help them write the story they want to write. Even if you're right about it being more plausible, there's no point if they don't stand behind the idea themselves.
 
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