who likes bisexual protagonists?

LostinMovement

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I just wanted to add one thing, having a bisexual protagonist doesn't necessitate a love triangle or a polyarmorous relationship. You can have your bi protagonist fall in love with the same gender or the opposite gender, it doesn't always have to be both (referring to gender bender harems). In this sense, they would be no different from a gay or a straight protagonist. Just like in real life.
 

BenJepheneT

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How the hell? My problem isn't at the sexuality at all; all I want are good characters. My problem is with OP's question. It's strange; I don't know how to answer. There's good bisexual characters and badly written bisexual characters. I like some of them and don't like some of them, how the hell do you want me to answer?

Bisexual representation or not, I couldn't care less. All I want is a good character; how is that so hard to comprehend?

And "I'm okay with it just don't shove it in my face" is WORD FOR WORD what queerphobic idiots have been saying since the 70s. Drop that sentence out of your vocabulary immediately because even with as much benefit of the doubt as humanly possible it's still only ever gonna come off as extremely bigoted whether you intend it to or not.
"only defining trait" is a phrasing homophobes often use to fabricate "good" queer people they "respect" and "bad" queer people they don't ("they make it their whole personality!")
So from what I picked up from here: even if you say something with an entirely different context, if it aligns word for word with a saying from the past that invokes any sort of antagonism, it's a big no-no.

Yes, alien sirs. We are evolving; just backwards.

Let me clarify what I meant: it was not overt "I don't want bi people to exist" type biphobia, but a much less egregious "Bi people are valid but it's pretty clear I haven't gotten rid of all my hangups on them yet" type.
Instead of just looking at our hangups, why don't you look at yours? Why can't you let the 70's biphobia go? Why can't you just see the present? We all support bisexuality in literature. What we don't support is blatant, purposeless pandering towards representation of any sort of topic, including sexualities.

This thread's whole intent is to say that we have no qualms against any -sexual character, we just want them to be written well.

If this thread was "Do you like harem troupes?" it'll be the same thing: we don't care, we just want them written well.

If not liking bisexual characters in literature who's sole defining trait exhibited by the author is the character's bisexuality IS biphobia, I guess you can start calling me so. I'm not gonna change my opinion just because I'm gonna be given a label for thinking that way. I would be happy to rethink if you could give at least one reasonable reason as to why but no, right off the bat I'm off-handedly labeled as biphobic because I quoted an old, outdated 1970 saying in a totally different context that still isn't acceptable by any means even after 4 decades.

The moment you can't conceive of a reason for having a bi character, thinking it's a thinly-veiled attempt at grabbing tags and therefore attracting viewers (please, we're small passion writers, not Disney) before thinking it could be that the author is a bisexual person in want of representation
I won't. I would never. I wouldn't be thinking is the author just trying to represent a bisexual character, I'll be thinking what is the author trying to achieve with this character? If it's a well written bisexual character, I wouldn't have questions with it at all. If I did, it wouldn't be regarding the character's sexuality but the character's role of the story.

In fact, if I do have questions regarding the character, even when the whole series is completed, it isn't the character's sexuality that's the problem. It's the character itself.

Like, a person can not enjoy reading/writing about someone from a group of people but that doesn't automatically mean they hate them IMO. It also doesn't mean that they don't want others to write/read about them. It just means it's not for them and I think that's alright. Nobody has to like everything and they should be allowed to say that.
Yes. Yes.
 

AliceShiki

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I don't like going into specific callouts because it can turn sour super quickly, but in this specific situation I'm afraid if I don't I'll be accused of jumping at shadows.

"only defining trait" is a phrasing homophobes often use to fabricate "good" queer people they "respect" and "bad" queer people they don't ("they make it their whole personality!")

A bit more minor, but assuming that bisexuality is just a way to "insert men into GL stories" when bisexuality can be "attracted to two or more gender identities" (e.g. being attracted to women, non-binary identities, but not men, would still count as bisexuality), though the knowledge that bisexuality is "two or more gender identities" rather than "men and women" isn't really spread outside of the queer community so I can excuse that one

The moment you can't conceive of a reason for having a bi character, thinking it's a thinly-veiled attempt at grabbing tags and therefore attracting viewers (please, we're small passion writers, not Disney) before thinking it could be that the author is a bisexual person in want of representation
I don't think anyone would consider adding a bisexual character for the sake of grabbing tags tbh... I mean... When I write a novel, I write it because of what I want to write, not because of what I think will be more popular, I assume most authors do the same.

I can understand someone wanting representation might put a bi character in the story, but uhn... At the same time, I don't quite understand why someone would put something in a story specifically because of representation... I mean, it's a valid reason, it's just one I don't understand. I'm bisexual myself, but I wouldn't ever put a bisexual character in my story just for the sake of having it represented, I'd like to put a bisexual character in my story if I were going to make their bisexuality a meaningful plot point... At least that's how I see it.

I wouldn't say you're jumping at shadows though, if anything, I'd say I felt a bit weird reading your comments because I was like... "Is she referring to my comments when she mentioned mild examples of biphobia? But I'm not! I'm bisexual myself! >.<"

On the other hand, I'm really happy to see how this thread turned out, like... It deviated a bit from the original topic, but everyone has been pretty polite and respectful while presenting their points and nobody attacked anyone. Like... I don't remember when was the last time I saw a discussion go this well in a somewhat polemic topic, even in NUF, which is a pretty chill place, you end up finding some troublesome people that spout a bunch of horseshit. So I can't express how happy I am to see things going well when people talk about this in Scribbly~
I just wanted to add one thing, having a bisexual protagonist doesn't necessitate a love triangle or a polyarmorous relationship. You can have your bi protagonist fall in love with the same gender or the opposite gender, it doesn't always have to be both (referring to gender bender harems). In this sense, they would be no different from a gay or a straight protagonist. Just like in real life.
Oh, I agree with you in that it's not necessary.

... I just don't quite see much reason to include a bisexual character in my own stories if I'm not going to actively play with the fact they're attracted to more than one gender.

It's more of a personal preference than anything~
 

PrincessFelicie

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So from what I picked up from here: even if you say something with an entirely different context, if it aligns word for word with a saying from the past that invokes any sort of antagonism, it's a big no-no.

Try "saying from the present". Biphobia is still alive and well. And yeah, of course you should be mindful not only of what you're saying but also of the way you're phrasing it.
 

yansusustories

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First of all, thanks, @Taxouck, for taking the time to make explicit what you meant even though you felt uncomfortable about it. I also wasn't thinking you were jumping at shadows, I just genuinely didn't understand. Your post helped with that and I can see where you're coming from now although I do have to admit that I probably wouldn't agree with everything.
Anyway, I'd like to add that I don't feel that this has anything to do with calling somebody out. IMO in a discussion, there are always lots of assumptions people make both about what others meant and about what they think their own threads definitely say while others might not be able to get that. So I always find it important to explain these things so everyone knows what's up. Otherwise, people will just end up with big misunderstandings that can't be cleared up anymore which is often a pity.
On that point, I'd also agree with @AliceShiki: This has been a rather polite discussion so far. In fact, I'm really enjoying having it (otherwise, I probably wouldn't have bothered asking and just walked away ...). It's an interesting subject and it's nice that there are differing opinions.

Speaking of that let me get to the actual discussion part. Let me preface that with two things:
  1. I had a tough day and my thoughts might be a bit jumbled up. I hope you can still make sense of this. If there's anything you feel doesn't make sense in the way I wrote it, please feel free to ask. I'm willing to try and explain myself tomorrow when I've gotten some hours of sleep in.
  2. (This is important later in) I'm queer as well. Not bi, but aro-ace (aromantic-asexual, in case you never had to deal with that :blob_sweat:). To summarize first because I tend to write long-ass posts: This has shaped a lot of my beliefs on subjects related to representation etc. etc. and also my personal tastes.

Starting off, I've realized that I actually haven't said anything about my personal opinion on the original question :blob_hmm_two:
As an author, I actually do have bisexual characters with one being a main character (I'm writing multiple POV so there's not really 'the' protagonist there). It's not a massive plot point, there's also just two important relationships (both same-sex) but it's shown (never said) that he's bi in some shorter scenes.
As a reader, I would theoretically be alright with a bisexual protagonist but I honestly can't remember ever reading about one :blob_hmm_two: So even if there was one, it couldn't have been a major plot point.

Now, since the start of this discussion I've been wondering about one thing that was said rather far in the beginning:
i always steer clear of girls' love stories if they have bisexual protagonist tag. i came there for girl on girl romance and i don't want some guy involved.
Tbh, I think this fits my own thoughts pretty well. I have never paid attention to it up until now but maybe I would indeed choose not to read a novel if I noticed this tag exactly because I would expect it to be a major plot point and the likelihood of a relationship with somebody from another gender being high. (Like, why would somebody make an extra tag for bisexual protagonist if it's not something that majorly influences the story?)
The thing is that I physically cringe (for lack of a better word) when I have to read romance with women. It's not as bad when seeing it on TV, for example, but I just can't read it. It makes me feel unwell and I do have the assumption that it's because of my own orientation. I probably feel so far removed from the romantic/sexual experience of other women that I just can't stand it. (It's something that got worse over the years. Right now, I can't pick up any novels with female MCs. It's actually a pity because I'm quite sure there are good ones out there.)
Unfortunately, I still love reading romance and even if I don't read romance, I still want the stories I read to have at least a romance subplot. It's just a personal preference of mine. This also means I'm exclusively reading gay romance right now (so I'll rather often refer to examples by assuming I'm talking about men here, pardon me for that). Problem is: If the guy was bisexual and he'd get into a relationship with a woman, this would destroy my enjoyment of the story :blob_upset:
So even though I'm theoretically alright with a bisexual protagonist, as soon as I'd see them act that out, I might actually drop the story :blob_frown: I would not if it's just mentioned. Like, you can say a hundred times your protagonist is bi, that won't change anything for me as long as I don't have to see that female romance.

This somewhat ties in with my thoughts about representation.
I've also been thinking about this since it came up here. As I said before, I do find representation extremely important. Like, speaking from my own experience, I've never once in my life seen an asexual protagonist (or even side character) in any novel I read or series or movie that I watched until I effing went to search for them last year. I'm not sure how the situation is with bisexual representation but probably not that good either?
Anyway, especially because of what I said before about the distinction of whether a character's bisexuality is just mentioned or shown and if shown how (like, major plot point or from smaller details), I have been asking myself: What do we actually count as representation?

Like, a bisexual person might notice if the character's sexuality is mentioned (I know I sure would if I saw an ace character). So to them, that alone might already be representation. (Then again I often saw stuff like "bad rep!" in reviews when I did go to find novels with ace protagonists so there's that.) Anyway, I think that a person of another orientation might not. E.g. I do not take note of it if some character is just said to be bi. If I exclusively saw said character be with a man for the whole story, I might even assume he was gay if I ever think of that story again. I do know that that's wrong but I wouldn't be able to remember something that was only mentioned once vs. something that I've "experienced" by reading. If I had to compare this with something I'd say that, for example, I'd often be able to recount the plot of a story after thinking about it but I would seldom remember the names of places or sometimes even characters. It's good enough if I still know what the MC was called.
Btw, I can say from experience that this "just mentioning once" thing is different with actual people: A friend of mine is bi and has only ever talked about their girlfriends. I still remember they're bi though despite the one conversation about that being years ago. It's just that the conversation we had is more of an experience than just reading something. The latter doesn't leave as strong of a mental note for me.

So, overall, I'm currently pondering that if anybody was putting bi (or other) characters in their stories for the sake of representation (whether or not they themselves are bi (or something else)), then there could be two different goals with this that might need different methods:
If representation was just about holding up a sign for the group of people that are being represented, then mentioning the characteristic would be enough.
If it's about more (like, let's say slowly making the group known to people outside of that group and maybe even furthering their acceptance), then this characteristic might need to be a major plot point to drive the point home or at least be shown sporadically so people will associate the term with something.
As an afterthought: There are dozens of subgroups for some sexualities since they're on a spectrum. For example, even as an ace person I couldn't tell which ace-identity means what. So even inside the community (and I don't even mean the big one but just the small one), showing these things might be important to actually identify what is being meant. This might also tie in with those "bad rep" reviews I mentioned before. Like, what's bad rep? If there are, like, 20+ ace identities on that spectrum, then they'll likely have different experiences as well. What's bad for one doesn't have to be bad for another.
And also (dang it!), what about the setting of the story? In a modern setting, you do have the terms for these things. But what if you're writing some fantasy epic that's inspired by ... some ancient kingdom that did not? You'd definitely have to show to get any representation in there. :blob_hmm_two:

Adding onto the last few points:
While I'd be happy about everyone holding an ace sign my way, I'd actually prefer the latter way of showing the orientation and not just mentioning. I mean it doesn't even need to be a major plot point but I'd at least like it to be one memorable part of the story. Like, not just something that is mentioned once or maybe twice but something that does indeed have an impact.
And - this is something I feel we haven't actually gotten around to discussing yet - if we're talking about bi or ace people, then does this something always need to be a relationship? Like, I obviously can't speak about bisexuals and I wouldn't even dare to assume that I can speak for any ace person other than myself (not even in my subcategory) but I do assume that for a big part of them their lives simply differ from people of other orientations. So even without talking about/showing their actual sexuality through relationships, you could probably make a character feel relatable (typing this right now I feel like this was what I was searching for before when I was going on that thought-spree about representation: relatableness) to the group of people it's supposed to represent just through shared experiences.

I ... think that was everything I wanted to say :blob_blank: At least it's everything I can think of right now. I'll go sleep now ...
 

PrincessFelicie

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And - this is something I feel we haven't actually gotten around to discussing yet - if we're talking about bi or ace people, then does this something always need to be a relationship?

I absolutely agree and in fact I have a topically relevant example: the new Netflix She'Ra, whose main character and main antagonist are both lesbian women who are clearly in love with one another (and there's a big game of will-they-won't-they because they're on opposite sides of a war), who has a secondary character with two dads, and a non-binary character, got accused of queerbaiting because "the two main lesbians aren't together".
...So they're lesbians only if they're in a relationship? It doesn't count, they stop being lesbians if they're single? It's absolutely ludicrous to say queer representation only counts when the character is in a relationship. Queer characters should be allowed to just be.
 

Kldran

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My 2 cents: I've written a bisexual protagonist, except I don't think anyone would know from reading the story. Their sexuality is never a topic, so all anyone has to work with is who they end up with. I think one of the biggest issues is that it's really easy to just leave out details that aren't directly relevant to the story. Because of this, non-standard traits tend to be invisible most of the time, and people make assumptions.

Now, for why bisexual protagonists are rare, even when including all the ones that just aren't obvious: It's because most people seem to prefer to see a specific relationship type. A story that only displays M/M or only F/F, or only F/M is generally going to be more popular than one which uses multiple of those pairings. If a harem story had half the harem be male, and the other half female, it's likely many people would find half the harem to be a turn off, and would dislike reading scenes involving them.

I've seen the most bisexuality in games, where players can easily pick and choose which pairings they want to see, and easily avoid the ones they don't like.
 

Phantomheart

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I've learned to not tag the sexuality of my characters anymore, because that just causes readers to drop like flies. It's their choice and I can't stop that, but it got me pissed off when one person who was reading my story saw that the protag was gay and immediately started commenting to me about how they didn't like that (it was in a friendly manner but it just irked me in a way). I had boy's love tagged because someone mentioned that it would be best to label it as such even though their sexuality or romance wasn't the main focus of the story. SO I labelled it as such, then I got comments asking if there was bl, and I said that the character was gay, but there wasn't any romance -- reader dropped the book like a pile a bricks. I tried making a bi-protag and mentioned some of it to my friends who were ecstatic to read it, but then I introduced the female leads and people hated them, so that story is stuck in a bind where I am perpetually debating whether I go with my original vision or do what some random people on the internet say to do.

TL;DR
People get anal about sexuality on the internet because idk, insecurities. There is a market for straight romance, there is a market for gay romance, there is a slight market for bi romance. Straight protag, okay, Gay protag, hmmm okay, bi protag? hmmmmm maybe. Me: *flipping over table clothes in passive aggressive rage*
 

AliceShiki

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so that story is stuck in a bind where I am perpetually debating whether I go with my original vision or do what some random people on the internet say to do.
My advice is to always go with your vision for the story. You won't be able to write anything good if you dislike your own story. Believe me, I've tried before. If you hate what you're writing, I can assure you it sucks. And well, if you don't do what you want, you'll inevitably hate it.

That said, you shouldn't be afraid of taking criticism from readers. Constructive criticism will help you grow as a writer, and it's important to lend and ear to it... But it's also important to remember that the story is yours and you'll decide how it will move.

If you hear about an issue from the readers, give it some thought and decide rather or not you believe the issue is real, and rather or not it is worth addressing... If it needs to be addressed, plan on how to do so and address it some time later. (or in the worst case scenario, edit older chapters to address it, but I think it must be a really big issue to need this kind of treatment)
 

yansusustories

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one person who was reading my story saw that the protag was gay and immediately started commenting to me about how they didn't like that (it was in a friendly manner but it just irked me in a way)
Oh, yes. I'm still kinda baffled about how these things happen even if the story is in the genre/tagged that way. Some readers probably don't check that beforehand. I even had people (although on another site) ask whether or not the story was gay after 30 or 40 chapters :blob_facepalm: I would have believed that the constant fussing of the ML over the MC kinda would have tipped them off but, well ...
And then there's the crazy Christians. The ones who go into the novel and comment stuff like 'This story is great but why does it have to be gay? God doesn't want this!' and if you give them an honest answer, they start to debate god and his opinion with you :blob_blank:

Anyway, I'd agree with @AliceShiki that changing stuff just because some readers want it isn't a good idea. Some people are very vocal about what they want and don't want. Others aren't. So chances are you'll change something for one person and lose another ten readers that liked where the thing was originally going. So just do it your way. Then at least one person is guaranteed to be happy :blob_melt:
 
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