Writing a Cultivation System story.

TrueGuardian32

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Just getting any tips I can for a cultivation system type story.
It's called Two Golden Fingers, give me any advise you can please.
 
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YuriDoggo

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A link to the story would make it more likely for people to take a look.
 

hawlol

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Avoid cliche tropes like young masters, women without personality and Gary Stu MC (He can be OP without being a Gary Stu).

Killing things for xp sounds good for games but it's boring for novels and it usually ends with the author making several 'hunting montages' like "The MC hunted beasts for 3 full days and got 2 ranks up". Try to diversify how the MC gains levels in interesting ways instead, like quests only, for example, since they would force him to get out of his confort zone and do funny/dangerous things that aren't just hunting. (but don't go wild on quests and allow the MC some agency)

Avoid boring battles: "My rank is one up than my enemy hence my punch went through and hit him." "His cheat allowed him to have more power and punch the cultivator 3 ranks above" etc. Intelligent use of skills and the current circumstances should have bigger impact than raw cultivation rank except if they're several realms apart.

Meaningless/filler antagonists: Random beast showing up in the woods or random young master being an asshole has no attachments to the story and sounds like filler most of times. Good antagonist should challenge the MC or the plot in some way. 10 chapters of the MC trying to defeat one beast with clever ways is far better than 5 chapters of several wild and random ones.

That's my 2 cents. Best of luck.
 

TrueGuardian32

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Avoid cliche tropes like young masters, women without personality and Gary Stu MC (He can be OP without being a Gary Stu).

Killing things for xp sounds good for games but it's boring for novels and it usually ends with the author making several 'hunting montages' like "The MC hunted beasts for 3 full days and got 2 ranks up". Try to diversify how the MC gains levels in interesting ways instead, like quests only, for example, since they would force him to get out of his confort zone and do funny/dangerous things that aren't just hunting. (but don't go wild on quests and allow the MC some agency)

Avoid boring battles: "My rank is one up than my enemy hence my punch went through and hit him." "His cheat allowed him to have more power and punch the cultivator 3 ranks above" etc. Intelligent use of skills and the current circumstances should have bigger impact than raw cultivation rank except if they're several realms apart.

Meaningless/filler antagonists: Random beast showing up in the woods or random young master being an asshole has no attachments to the story and sounds like filler most of times. Good antagonist should challenge the MC or the plot in some way. 10 chapters of the MC trying to defeat one beast with clever ways is far better than 5 chapters of several wild and random ones.

That's my 2 cents. Best of luck.
Hmm. Alright. While the Systems can level up the requirements are much different too, while the God System is material, the Sandbox System is spiritual.

Su's have always been a strange topic for me. Technically I like some types of Mary/Gary Su's but mainly when it makes sense that they are actually winning. For example, I consider a bad Mary Su to be someone who never goes through a single problem, there's no sense of danger or worry throughout because the Mary Su is just stupidly powerful due to a Mary Su halo. The only time I like an overwhelming Su is when the Su has actually prepared and showed there power. Man I really need to go to sleep.

Battles huh. Well... I can try. See the Sandbox system means if he is in range he can instantly turn everyone near him into mush. However, I never did put how much force could be exerted with the Sandbox System did I?

Antagonist... well currently I have one main Antagonist. I haven't put focus into the minor villains yet. But we probably won't see the Main Antagonist till late in the story.

Thanks for the advice, I will do my best to heed it... man I need to go to sleep, 240 in the morn
 

UltraRob

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Battles huh. Well... I can try. See the Sandbox system means if he is in range he can instantly turn everyone near him into mush. However, I never did put how much force could be exerted with the Sandbox System did I?

Yeah, that's a terrible cheat. Don't do that.

The best cheats are double-edged swords that help the MC advance quickly and get out of trouble in a pinch, but which also come with major disadvantages to keep the MC from just walking through the story like he's a god on a nice summer day.

I see you went with the idea of having your cheat giving the MC tasks and commands, which is good because it can make the MC do things he doesn't want to do. Now give it a few more limitations, like it only helps him when he completes a task (maybe he has to earn "help points" in order to get it to do things for him) or give it a cool-down period whenever it's used, or maybe he has to collect a certain number of monster cores to feed it to keep it going, or maybe all of these! Also, what is the punishment for not accomplishing the tasks it gives him? Give it some stakes that he needs to avoid to keep going forward. (Don't give it enough monster cores? It feeds on the MC! Better get hunting!)

You need to remember that limitations = interest, because what the character can't do generates drama, not what the character can do.

Antagonist... well currently I have one main Antagonist. I haven't put focus into the minor villains yet. But we probably won't see the Main Antagonist till late in the story.

That's actually a good thing. Main Antagonists are the finish line of the story, when they're beat the story is over. So, use them sparingly before the end of the story, and just have them show up from time to time. Come up with some "level bosses" who represent the ends of the different stages of the story, with each being different than the others because they represent some different thing the MC needs to learn, accomplish, or overcome. One popular trick is to have each boss represent a weakness in your MC, so they're made to literally target that weakness in the way the MC fights or acts. Like if the MC is a loner, the boss needs teamwork to defeat, or if the MC is aggressive, that boss requires patience to defeat, or if the MC is afraid of cats, that boss uses demon cat familiars, etc.

Your final boss should be a "shadow version" of your MC, someone who walked a similar path and has similar abilities, but took a wrong turn somewhere. Maybe they were the last reincarnated hero, who got lazy and greedy when they gained power and fell off the track, so "god" decided to bring our MC in to take them down. Of course, they're far ahead of the MC in progress, so if the MC faces them now they'll be mush.

Have fun!
Rob

P.S. It's Shao, not Shoa. Please proofread.
 

TrueGuardian32

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Yeah, that's a terrible cheat. Don't do that.

The best cheats are double-edged swords that help the MC advance quickly and get out of trouble in a pinch, but which also come with major disadvantages to keep the MC from just walking through the story like he's a god on a nice summer day.

I see you went with the idea of having your cheat giving the MC tasks and commands, which is good because it can make the MC do things he doesn't want to do. Now give it a few more limitations, like it only helps him when he completes a task (maybe he has to earn "help points" in order to get it to do things for him) or give it a cool-down period whenever it's used, or maybe he has to collect a certain number of monster cores to feed it to keep it going, or maybe all of these! Also, what is the punishment for not accomplishing the tasks it gives him? Give it some stakes that he needs to avoid to keep going forward. (Don't give it enough monster cores? It feeds on the MC! Better get hunting!)

You need to remember that limitations = interest, because what the character can't do generates drama, not what the character can do.



That's actually a good thing. Main Antagonists are the finish line of the story, when they're beat the story is over. So, use them sparingly before the end of the story, and just have them show up from time to time. Come up with some "level bosses" who represent the ends of the different stages of the story, with each being different than the others because they represent some different thing the MC needs to learn, accomplish, or overcome. One popular trick is to have each boss represent a weakness in your MC, so they're made to literally target that weakness in the way the MC fights or acts. Like if the MC is a loner, the boss needs teamwork to defeat, or if the MC is aggressive, that boss requires patience to defeat, or if the MC is afraid of cats, that boss uses demon cat familiars, etc.

Your final boss should be a "shadow version" of your MC, someone who walked a similar path and has similar abilities, but took a wrong turn somewhere. Maybe they were the last reincarnated hero, who got lazy and greedy when they gained power and fell off the track, so "god" decided to bring our MC in to take them down. Of course, they're far ahead of the MC in progress, so if the MC faces them now they'll be mush.

Have fun!
Rob

P.S. It's Shao, not Shoa. Please proofread.
Auto correct
 

Owl

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Your final boss should be a "shadow version" of your MC, someone who walked a similar path and has similar abilities, but took a wrong turn somewhere.
My opinion: Can't agree with that at all. I think it's a terribly boring trope to have this "fight against a version of you". It often feels like you couldn't come up with a good villain and just copy pasted your MC and turned him dark.... Not that thats always the case or that it's a bad trope, but I personally dislike it
 
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BenJepheneT

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My opinion: Can't agree with that at all. I think it's a terrible boring trope to have this "fight against a version of you". It often feels like you couldn't come up with a good villain and just copy pasted your MC and turned him dark.... Not that thats always the case or that it's a bad trope, but I personally dislike it
somewhere out there, george lucas shed a tear
 

UltraRob

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My opinion: Can't agree with that at all. I think it's a terribly boring trope to have this "fight against a version of you". It often feels like you couldn't come up with a good villain and just copy pasted your MC and turned him dark.... Not that thats always the case or that it's a bad trope, but I personally dislike it

Well, if you just copy-pasted your MC and turned him dark, I'll generally agree with you. However, the best villains need to reflect the hero in some way because symbolically they're there to represent the hero overcoming the worst part of their old self and becoming the new person they could always be. That doesn't mean they have to be a literal clone of the hero, just that some part of them reflects the choices the hero made and highlights them to the audience in how the hero has changed since the start.

For example, if the hero was greedy at the start and learned the value of moderation, then the villain should be greedy like the hero once was, or maybe even moreso. This creates a strong sense of symmetry in the story, with the beginning and the end are connected to form a complete whole. This villain may be nothing like the hero except in their common sense of greed, but it still closes the loop in a way which audiences find satisfying. This is generally what more skilled writers will do, since as you say, it feels a bit lazy to just copy-paste the hero.

However, since this is often tough for beginning writers, the simplest version way to hack this is just make the final boss a dark version of the hero. It works for billion dollar Marvel movies, and it can work for webnovels too.
 

Owl

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Well, if you just copy-pasted your MC and turned him dark, I'll generally agree with you. However, the best villains need to reflect the hero in some way because symbolically they're there to represent the hero overcoming the worst part of their old self and becoming the new person they could always be. That doesn't mean they have to be a literal clone of the hero, just that some part of them reflects the choices the hero made and highlights them to the audience in how the hero has changed since the start.

For example, if the hero was greedy at the start and learned the value of moderation, then the villain should be greedy like the hero once was, or maybe even moreso. This creates a strong sense of symmetry in the story, with the beginning and the end are connected to form a complete whole. This villain may be nothing like the hero except in their common sense of greed, but it still closes the loop in a way which audiences find satisfying. This is generally what more skilled writers will do, since as you say, it feels a bit lazy to just copy-paste the hero.

However, since this is often tough for beginning writers, the simplest version way to hack this is just make the final boss a dark version of the hero. It works for billion dollar Marvel movies, and it can work for webnovels too.
It's not like I mean the trope is generally bad (I don't believe that any character design is good or bad by default, it depends on writing)
My problem is that this trope that has been around since pretty much the beginning of hero stories is so likely to turn you lazy: It's easy to make character development just through the villain or make the villain just a copy of the MC. I think there is a lot of fun in villains who, for example, have no other reason than boredom for their slaughter, or who are maybe actually just wrongly wired and all those kinds of 'different' villains that don't just serve as fodder for character development where everyone can see their similarity to the MC from miles away. Basically, I got caught on you saying the villain 'should' be in that way :blob_hmm:
 

UltraRob

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I think there is a lot of fun in villains who, for example, have no other reason than boredom for their slaughter, or who are maybe actually just wrongly wired and all those kinds of 'different' villains that don't just serve as fodder for character development where everyone can see their similarity to the MC from miles away

First, let me say that I agree with you that a bigger variety of villains would be a great thing. In fact, on my podcast I just went on a huge rant about a similar topic a few months back. I have a whole pile of villain types I hate with a passion because they're so overused (evil overlords, serial killers, young masters, etc) but I also recognize that this is my personal preference and that in general audiences can't seem to get enough of them. 😑 More variety of villains would be great from my point of view too.

That said, the villains in any story are there to serve as pieces of the story itself. Stories are like car engines, and you don't throw random parts into car engines and expect them to run better. Everything in a good story is there for a reason, including the villain, and if the villain isn't there to help the story along then why are they there? Yes, they might just be there to be entertaining, which is fine but a bit of a missed opportunity. A "good" villain is always a part of the hero in some way because this is the hero's story, and they are always helping the hero's story along on a plot, character, or symbolic basis.

The alternative is a flat story that will lose audience interest pretty quickly because there's literally nothing there except a villain who is bored or wrongly wired. They do some evil stuff, then they do more evil stuff, and what does it all mean? A few times is okay and even fun, but it's the cotton candy of writing and people get sick of it fast because there's no other layers to it- it's just filler in the story. A villain who doesn't connect with the themes of the story is a recipe for a failed story IMHO.

But hey, I could easily be wrong. :-) Please write your villains however you like, and maybe you'll find something new or make it work for you.
 

Owl

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Sorry to the OP who totally didnt mean the thread to go like this xD

and if the villain isn't there to help the story along then why are they there?
Totally agree, I'm just saying I wish that a villain didn't need to showcase an aspect that the MC is in dire need of fixing to be important to the story. To use your example: MC is getting greedy, villain is super greedy, MC realizes it's bad, you know? Sure, a villain needs to have something that offsets them, but I'm always sad to see them as pure character development tools, that's all
 

UltraRob

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Sorry to the OP who totally didnt mean the thread to go like this xD

Yes, sorry OP!

Totally agree, I'm just saying I wish that a villain didn't need to showcase an aspect that the MC is in dire need of fixing to be important to the story. To use your example: MC is getting greedy, villain is super greedy, MC realizes it's bad, you know? Sure, a villain needs to have something that offsets them, but I'm always sad to see them as pure character development tools, that's all

Well, the trick is that the hero and the villain are both connected to the story's theme, and that connection will always mean that they are linked to each other in some way. They aren't always character development tools though, they can just be there to develop the theme of the story as opposed to the main character's journey. Although, usually those still end up being linked.

If it really makes you so sad, then try doing it another way and see how it works out. You'll get practice writing, and you might find something new. :blobthumbsup:
 

Owl

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If it really makes you so sad, then try doing it another way and see how it works out. You'll get practice writing, and you might find something new. :blobthumbsup:
It sounds like you think I'm throwing a tantrum lol. I'm writing my villains my way obviously, and villains are obviously linked to the story and obviously not always character development tools. You don't need to tell me that, from the start I only wanted to correct you saying that a villain "should" (as opposed to "could") be a certain way
 

UltraRob

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It sounds like you think I'm throwing a tantrum lol. I'm writing my villains my way obviously, and villains are obviously linked to the story and obviously not always character development tools. You don't need to tell me that, from the start I only wanted to correct you saying that a villain "should" (as opposed to "could") be a certain way

Actually, I don't think you're throwing a tantrum at all. I think you're tired of seeing villains done in a certain way and want to see more variety. That's it.

Have a good day!
 

TrueGuardian32

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I was actually enjoying that argument. Well, I can say the main villain isn't a shadow version of himself. I might make a trial where he fights a shadow version, but the main villain isn't a shadow version.
 
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