Writing Story tags: Promises made/lite spoilers before the first chapter is even read and how it improves passive promotion.

[Mystic_Grasshopper]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the addition of tags to online novels has made the state of novels more soulless? I mean the basic idea behind adding tags comes from wanting to catalogue the wide array of stories already available, but now we have stories that haven't even passed any marker of quality or consistency having their very authors categorize them. Of course they can be shamed or forced into changing their stripes for the sake of transparency.

However, dishonesty and consistency isn't what I'm here to discuss. I want to understand how other people feel about it. The use of categorization as an additional tool for authors to promote their story. Obviously genre has a longer history of usage than mere tags but the usage is much the same. Sure it's fantasy and isekai but will there be an overpowered main character or a piss his pants side character protagonist that hogs the spotlight while still getting the woman in the end. The essence of what I want to discuss is in the previous example. Is everyone really fine with removing the little mysteries that a story is supposed to build up just for the sake of audience perception? Are we long past this question?

It makes me wonder what it was like to read before the advent of the internet, was it really a gamble that what you were reading was of poor quality or not to your taste? How come we're okay with being so easily repelled by a story when we see a tag we don't like? In a way, this solidifies a sort of weird masochistic relationship that readers have with the author, they want a bit of spoiler before they dip their toes into the pool of a novel. They want to be told the water is clean even if it's green.

Yet, I personally think there's something really wrong going on here, readers will jump to conclusions when there's nothing not even a tag to reflect their thinking but by taking what you've given in tags they will guess what you have yet to add. Other readers will also guess where the story is going from the get go rather than follow what you've uploaded for the day. An extreme but real anecdote is the assumption by a reader that a character will become a pervert soon because of one impulsive action that had no sexual implications. Some of this may be stated to be due to the platform but it might just be the type of readers that exist now. Readers that can say for certain they know the story already and are quickly moving on if it's not considered the best in its category. In its range of tags.

Scribblehub like many other sites utilizes tags to not only categorize a wide array of stories but rank them. This is where I introduce the other side of this coin, in a space of near endless storytelling the only way to get noticed is to stand out. The tag system has become a staple in this arms race of uniqueness and advertising. It helps convey to the reader what the writer's plans are on a given project while also making the author's work more visible, why wouldn't you do it if it's free and seemingly harmless. Well, it's now a fact that an author can't make a story anymore without tagging and hope to garner zero backlash if they have any more than one unrevealed major element to a story assuming anyone even gambles to read a tagless story. Again there's nothing but good that's come out of having more transparency for picky readers and niche writers because now the readers that you want are more likely to find you and those that you don't want can more easily avoid you, some have argued it also gathers negative attention which can be true but not generally.

Active promotion is a very important part of an online author's journey to relevancy. Shout-out swaps, Review swaps, feedback threads, new release thread posts, social media posts, all of these combined act as a part of the Author's agency in making sure the story stands out and reaches someone or anyone.

Tags, genre, and synopsis, these form the passive promotion I titled this thread for. These are not things you can directly control on popularity other than to place such labels and phrases to entice the reader to peer inside. The tag ranking system authors slowly crawl to the top of is what gets them an even more prominent way to stand out. It acts as a form of credibility to be at the top, if someone asks what's the #1 weak to strong story on Scribblehub, a simple click on series finder, typing out "weak to strong" on the tags bar and clicking search answers that question. Sure someone could mention their favorite one or a non-top 10 story that they think is more worthy but you can't deny what's in front of you when you do that. And everyone who ever looks for that specific parameter will see that story first until someone else beats it out.

It's got me wondering how far we've changed the dynamic of storytelling. The tags specifically, they basically spoil a story if you have enough of them, and their specificity ends up destroying any semblance of remaining intrigue or ambiguity (not literally but not entirely insignificant either). I just think in a way the online writers that use that tool of passive promotion: tags, have added to a sort of mark of the beast. There will never be a time again when you can look at your story and say it is wholly unique because the pandora's box of what could be a unique experience is tainted by what you say the object inside is. You have told the reader the physical characteristics and shape of your work but now you've become a number which they can safely scroll through. The reader no longer ponders the soul, the passion or the effort behind the letters. The reader may now only see the figure and place a value and worthiness without ever having to read the first word of the first chapter. Worse yet is a case where they never even saw the rest of your hypothetical story because they can choose to blind themselves from ever laying eyes on a repugnant blemish, what they see the unsavory tag to be. Like livestock, stories with tags are a mark of distinction to be slaughtered or prized with the readers acting as the final judge always biased to what they have seen before and what they consider the story to be in their systemic minds. They read without comprehending and blame the author when the story in the reader's imagination does not sync with the author's expression.

Tags are no true victory to human creativity but act as shackles to define and consume what is perceived to be art and discard the unworthy and tainted as trash and filth. Anyway, what do y'all think?

 

[SailusGebel]

I think you think too much.

 

[RepresentingEnvy]

I don't see tagging as a problem. If you want mystery in your own story, simply remove tags that spoil.

 

[Mystic_Grasshopper]

I think you think too much.

Thank you, I like to think that I overthink too.

 

[SailusGebel]

You should just do what you want as long as you follow the rules. In this case, read and write what you want. No reason to overcomplicate things. Maybe this is an interesting topic, I dunno. Other writers will probably provide you with better replies.

 

[Cossimeri]

I'm going to be perfectly honest with you and say... I couldn't read what you wrote verbatim. I tried really hard, but then my brain was like "okay... gonna skim the rest" and I really just couldn't reign her in.

So I think I'll focus on your comment "It makes me wonder what it was like to read before the advent of the internet".

I didn't exist before the internet, but I grew up in a small American town which did its best to cling to the 'glory days'. Which relates to this question you have. You see, in the Sunday paper my grandparents would get, there was always a literary section which reviewed a few major releases. My grandma would sometimes read the review and if it sounded good to her she'd make a little note in a book she kept in her purse and she'd go buy it.

Tags are less harmful, and less prone to spoilers than a small-town newspaper's review. There will never be a perfect system, but I think the number of people who start reading a book without any context have always been rare. Before the internet if it wasn't a newspaper review, it was probably a friend saying 'you've got to read this', or maybe they asked the shopkeeper at their local bookstore to recommend something.

I'm sure those recommendations went something like "Well if you like girls who kiss girls, then you're going to love. Oh and she's got an adorable little sister, etc" that's basically the analog version of tags.

So, it's no problem!

Now treat yourself to some cupcakes, and have a really good cup of tea. <3 You've written so much, you should treat yourself!

 

[Mystic_Grasshopper]

You should just do what you want as long as you follow the rules. In this case, read and write what you want. No reason to overcomplicate things. Maybe this is an interesting topic, I dunno. Other writers will probably provide you with better replies.

I mean this is a discussion, I'm not on a crusade against tags, just curious if anyone ever looks at this stuff and says this in their head. I already went through all my coherent and incoherent thoughts on the matter. Obviously like anyone else I'll use tags.

 

[RepresentingEnvy]

I'm going to be perfectly honest with you and say... I couldn't read what you wrote verbatim. I tried really hard, but then my brain was like "okay... gonna skim the rest" and I really just couldn't reign her in.

So I think I'll focus on your comment "It makes me wonder what it was like to read before the advent of the internet".

I didn't exist before the internet, but I grew up in a small American town which did its best to cling to the 'glory days'. Which relates to this question you have. You see, in the Sunday paper my grandparents would get, there was always a literary section which reviewed a few major releases. My grandma would sometimes read the review and if it sounded good to her she'd make a little note in a book she kept in her purse and she'd go buy it.

Tags are less harmful, and less prone to spoilers than a small-town newspaper's review. There will never be a perfect system, but I think the number of people who start reading a book without any context have always been rare. Before the internet if it wasn't a newspaper review, it was probably a friend saying 'you've got to read this', or maybe they asked the shopkeeper at their local bookstore to recommend something.

I'm sure those recommendations went something like "Well if you like girls who kiss girls, then you're going to love. Oh and she's got an adorable little sister, etc" that's basically the analog version of tags.

So, it's no problem!

Now treat yourself to some cupcakes, and have a really good cup of tea. <3 You've written so much, you should treat yourself!

I agree with this. Word of mouth is often even more spoiler than tags. Your friends saying what the book is about is much more spoiler.

 

[TheMonotonePuppet]

Has it ever occurred to anyone that the addition of tags to online novels has made the state of novels more soulless? I mean the basic idea behind adding tags comes from wanting to catalogue the wide array of stories already available, but now we have stories that haven't even passed any marker of quality or consistency having their very authors categorize them. Of course they can be shamed or forced into changing their stripes for the sake of transparency.

However, dishonesty and consistency isn't what I'm here to discuss. I want to understand how other people feel about it. The use of categorization as an additional tool for authors to promote their story. Obviously genre has a longer history of usage than mere tags but the usage is much the same. Sure it's fantasy and isekai but will there be an overpowered main character or a piss his pants side character protagonist that hogs the spotlight while still getting the woman in the end. The essence of what I want to discuss is in the previous example. Is everyone really fine with removing the little mysteries that a story is supposed to build up just for the sake of audience perception? Are we long past this question?

It makes me wonder what it was like to read before the advent of the internet, was it really a gamble that what you were reading was of poor quality or not to your taste? How come we're okay with being so easily repelled by a story when we see a tag we don't like? In a way, this solidifies a sort of weird masochistic relationship that readers have with the author, they want a bit of spoiler before they dip their toes into the pool of a novel. They want to be told the water is clean even if it's green.

Yet, I personally think there's something really wrong going on here, readers will jump to conclusions when there's nothing not even a tag to reflect their thinking but by taking what you've given in tags they will guess what you have yet to add. Other readers will also guess where the story is going from the get go rather than follow what you've uploaded for the day. An extreme but real anecdote is the assumption by a reader that a character will become a pervert soon because of one impulsive action that had no sexual implications. Some of this may be stated to be due to the platform but it might just be the type of readers that exist now. Readers that can say for certain they know the story already and are quickly moving on if it's not considered the best in its category. In its range of tags.

Scribblehub like many other sites utilizes tags to not only categorize a wide array of stories but rank them. This is where I introduce the other side of this coin, in a space of near endless storytelling the only way to get noticed is to stand out. The tag system has become a staple in this arms race of uniqueness and advertising. It helps convey to the reader what the writer's plans are on a given project while also making the author's work more visible, why wouldn't you do it if it's free and seemingly harmless. Well, it's now a fact that an author can't make a story anymore without tagging and hope to garner zero backlash if they have any more than one unrevealed major element to a story assuming anyone even gambles to read a tagless story. Again there's nothing but good that's come out of having more transparency for picky readers and niche writers because now the readers that you want are more likely to find you and those that you don't want can more easily avoid you, some have argued it also gathers negative attention which can be true but not generally.

Active promotion is a very important part of an online author's journey to relevancy. Shout-out swaps, Review swaps, feedback threads, new release thread posts, social media posts, all of these combined act as a part of the Author's agency in making sure the story stands out and reaches someone or anyone.

Tags, genre, and synopsis, these form the passive promotion I titled this thread for. These are not things you can directly control on popularity other than to place such labels and phrases to entice the reader to peer inside. The tag ranking system authors slowly crawl to the top of is what gets them an even more prominent way to stand out. It acts as a form of credibility to be at the top, if someone asks what's the #1 weak to strong story on Scribblehub, a simple click on series finder, typing out "weak to strong" on the tags bar and clicking search answers that question. Sure someone could mention their favorite one or a non-top 10 story that they think is more worthy but you can't deny what's in front of you when you do that. And everyone who ever looks for that specific parameter will see that story first until someone else beats it out.

It's got me wondering how far we've changed the dynamic of storytelling. The tags specifically, they basically spoil a story if you have enough of them, and their specificity ends up destroying any semblance of remaining intrigue or ambiguity (not literally but not entirely insignificant either). I just think in a way the online writers that use that tool of passive promotion: tags, have added to a sort of mark of the beast. There will never be a time again when you can look at your story and say it is wholly unique because the pandora's box of what could be a unique experience is tainted by what you say the object inside is. You have told the reader the physical characteristics and shape of your work but now you've become a number which they can safely scroll through. The reader no longer ponders the soul, the passion or the effort behind the letters. The reader may now only see the figure and place a value and worthiness without ever having to read the first word of the first chapter. Worse yet is a case where they never even saw the rest of your hypothetical story because they can choose to blind themselves from ever laying eyes on a repugnant blemish, what they see the unsavory tag to be. Like livestock, stories with tags are a mark of distinction to be slaughtered or prized with the readers acting as the final judge always biased to what they have seen before and what they consider the story to be in their systemic minds. They read without comprehending and blame the author when the story in the reader's imagination does not sync with the author's expression.

Tags are no true victory to human creativity but act as shackles to define and consume what is perceived to be art and discard the unworthy and tainted as trash and filth. Anyway, what do y'all think?

I personally would rather have tags because otherwise a lot of people will be emotionally scarred for life after reading my story. The tags I choose are also things that give less away than you'd think. They all emphasize what I would normally emphasize in a synopsis for a real-world novel, which I can't emphasize in a synopsis for a digital webfiction (or have already emphasized in my synopsis), and emphasize absolutely core aspects of the story (so core that they are the basis behind the title).
Here.
I'll put them down here. I can almost guarantee you are going to have less of an idea of what the story is like. Even with checking out the tags, the majority of reactions end up, at some point, being "What da fuq is this?!"
Academy; Acting; Alternate World; Antihero Protagonist; Cannibalism; Charismatic Protagonist; Clever Protagonist; Depictions of Cruelty; Depression; Dystopia; Fantasy World; Gore; Level System; Magic; Magical Girls; Manipulative Characters; Mind Control; Mutated Creatures; Non-human Protagonist; Past Trauma; Playful Protagonist; Sexual Abuse; Transgender; Trickster; Twisted Personality

Can you imagine walking in on that? I mean, if the cover art and the synopsis didn't give it away that this story is something strange, you'd probably be pretty freakin' shocked to come across the reasons each tag is on the page.

 

[SailusGebel]

I mean this is a discussion, I'm not on a crusade against tags, just curious if anyone ever looks at this stuff and says this in their head. I already went through all my coherent and incoherent thoughts on the matter. Obviously like anyone else I'll use tags.

I understand. If my reply sounded offensive sorry. I didn't mean it that way. I just wanted to enagage in the said discussion in my own way. Basically, you are curious, I predict some other people are curious, while I'm not. And I wanted to tell that I don't care, to show the different type of thinking or something.

 

[TheMonotonePuppet]

How come we're okay with being so easily repelled by a story when we see a tag we don't like?

I think this is less of a problem with tags specifically, and more of a problem with people staying with what they know they prefer. I definitely think though that it is a problem. People (and my own self) often disappoint me in that manner, failing to grow and change, and all in all, acting excruciatingly boring. So uncolorful.

readers will jump to conclusions when there's nothing not even a tag to reflect their thinking but by taking what you've given in tags they will guess what you have yet to add

I would assume it is a plethora of choice that enables them to be selective. Just a function of supply to demand. I do think it is easy to see in the jumping of conclusions a stupid reader. Sometimes though, they'll subconsciously jump to conclusions to explain to themselves why they just really don't want to read the story. That's why they'll make really poor arguments as to why they think that'll happen. They never had any true reason beyond a gut reaction to begin with. Other times though, they are just too arrogant in their predictive capacity. And still other times, they could genuinely be accurate, and the author just feels targeted by the truth.

Tags, genre, and synopsis, these form the passive promotion I titled this thread for. These are not things you can directly control on popularity other than to place such labels and phrases to entice the reader to peer inside. The tag ranking system authors slowly crawl to the top of is what gets them an even more prominent way to stand out. It acts as a form of credibility to be at the top, if someone asks what's the #1 weak to strong story on Scribblehub, a simple click on series finder, typing out "weak to strong" on the tags bar and clicking search answers that question. Sure someone could mention their favorite one or a non-top 10 story that they think is more worthy but you can't deny what's in front of you when you do that. And everyone who ever looks for that specific parameter will see that story first until someone else beats it out.

How ranking systems and organizational systems throughout history have impacted society's focus on various stories has always interested me in an academic manner. It doesn't particularly burn at my soul like it seems to do for a lot of people, but it is interesting.

 

[Succubiome]

I'm pretty sure that some people don't even look at tags or disclaimers, given that people have occasionally been like "ugh I hate X" in books where I tagged or disclaimed it-- and statistically this means there's probably other people who choose to go in blind, with the risks that involves, and then don't complain about it, too.

And there are absolutely those who read the tags and disclaimer and still weren't expecting what was coming.

If people want information before they read a story (up to a point), I'm happy to give that to them-- I don't always know what will happen, or realize or agree that I should tag certain things, but like... overall, people having power over what they read, insofar as it makes sense, isn't a bad thing.

If they don't want tags, it's not all that hard to not read tags, and they can skip the synopsis too if they want. They might see a word or two, sure, but you might see that on the back cover of an analogue book anyways, and they'd probably know at least the genre based on shelving if they got the book at the library or bookstore.

For good and ill, traditional publishing is and was based on what people think will make a profit, and what fits their brand of books.

Webnovels are a fundamentally different system than that, where there isn't a publisher brand, persay, that stands as a seal of quality/genre/content matter. This means there's less gatekeeping, for good and for ill. They kind of need tags and synopses, because a reader needs some kind of way to sort before they decide what to read in like, the gigantic sea of 15,000 unknown novels.

Since it's decided by authors what to tag, and the tags here are limited, and sometimes have expected use cases outside of their descriptions, it's far from a perfect system, sure-- but I don't think a site without tags or at least genres of some kind would be very usable.

If you want random discovery reading on Scribblehub, you can just click on "Random Series", skip the tags, and just start reading. Or go to some variation on popularity and do the same, if you want popular random discovery reading.

 

[WingsOfPhantasy]

I understand where you're coming from, but as someone who used to read fanfiction and webnovels way back before they even had sites with proper tagging, reading what you thought was a perfect story only to then come across the craziest vile shit that you would've avoided had there been any tags leads me to believe that they're fine the way they are now.

 

[Mystic_Grasshopper]

I'm going to be perfectly honest with you and say... I couldn't read what you wrote verbatim. I tried really hard, but then my brain was like "okay... gonna skim the rest" and I really just couldn't reign her in.

So I think I'll focus on your comment "It makes me wonder what it was like to read before the advent of the internet".

I didn't exist before the internet, but I grew up in a small American town which did its best to cling to the 'glory days'. Which relates to this question you have. You see, in the Sunday paper my grandparents would get, there was always a literary section which reviewed a few major releases. My grandma would sometimes read the review and if it sounded good to her she'd make a little note in a book she kept in her purse and she'd go buy it.

Tags are less harmful, and less prone to spoilers than a small-town newspaper's review. There will never be a perfect system, but I think the number of people who start reading a book without any context have always been rare. Before the internet if it wasn't a newspaper review, it was probably a friend saying 'you've got to read this', or maybe they asked the shopkeeper at their local bookstore to recommend something.

I'm sure those recommendations went something like "Well if you like girls who kiss girls, then you're going to love. Oh and she's got an adorable little sister, etc" that's basically the analog version of tags.

So, it's no problem!

Now treat yourself to some cupcakes, and have a really good cup of tea. <3 You've written so much, you should treat yourself!

You've caught me I was half asleep when I wrote this so the organization was all over the place, but I still said my peace. I remember the time before I had full access to the internet as well. I lived in a city but every book and film in my home felt like a new experience even if later on I would hear slander against it long after, I still enjoyed it.

I personally would rather have tags because otherwise a lot of people will be emotionally scarred for life after reading my story. The tags I choose are also things that give less away than you'd think. They all emphasize what I would normally emphasize in a synopsis for a real-world novel, which I can't emphasize in a synopsis for a digital webfiction (or have already emphasized in my synopsis), and emphasize absolutely core aspects of the story (so core that they are the basis behind the title).
Here.
I'll put them down here. I can almost guarantee you are going to have less of an idea of what the story is like. Even with checking out the tags, the majority of reactions end up, at some point, being "What da fuq is this?!"
Academy; Acting; Alternate World; Antihero Protagonist; Cannibalism; Charismatic Protagonist; Clever Protagonist; Depictions of Cruelty; Depression; Dystopia; Fantasy World; Gore; Level System; Magic; Magical Girls; Manipulative Characters; Mind Control; Mutated Creatures; Non-human Protagonist; Past Trauma; Playful Protagonist; Sexual Abuse; Transgender; Trickster; Twisted Personality

Can you imagine walking in on that? I mean, if the cover art and the synopsis didn't give it away that this story is something strange, you'd probably be pretty freakin' shocked to come across the reasons each tag is on the page.

Yeah I can imagine walking into some weird content but no matter what I've always gained something pleasant in such oddities. I always appreciate work that I wouldn't normally read that I've stumbled onto. It's not really about abolishing the tag system it's just a thought that occurs to me about how much respect we have for fitting stuff into boxes. Unique application of tags is generally what I mean when I talk about the spirit in a story.

I'm pretty sure that some people don't even look at tags or disclaimers, given that people have occasionally been like "ugh I hate X" in books where I tagged or disclaimed it-- and statistically this means there's probably other people who choose to go in blind, with the risks that involves, and then don't complain about it, too.

And there are absolutely those who read the tags and disclaimer and still weren't expecting what was coming.

If people want information before they read a story (up to a point), I'm happy to give that to them-- I don't always know what will happen, or realize or agree that I should tag certain things, but like... overall, people having power over what they read, insofar as it makes sense, isn't a bad thing.

If they don't want tags, it's not all that hard to not read tags, and they can skip the synopsis too if they want. They might see a word or two, sure, but you might see that on the back cover of an analogue book anyways, and they'd probably know at least the genre based on shelving if they got the book at the library or bookstore.

For good and ill, traditional publishing is and was based on what people think will make a profit, and what fits their brand of books.

Webnovels are a fundamentally different system than that, where there isn't a publisher brand, persay, that stands as a seal of quality/genre/content matter. This means there's less gatekeeping, for good and for ill. They kind of need tags and synopses, because a reader needs some kind of way to sort before they decide what to read in like, the gigantic sea of 15,000 unknown novels.

Since it's decided by authors what to tag, and the tags here are limited, and sometimes have expected use cases outside of their descriptions, it's far from a perfect system, sure-- but I don't think a site without tags or at least genres of some kind would be very usable.

If you want random discovery reading on Scribblehub, you can just click on "Random Series", skip the tags, and just start reading. Or go to some variation on popularity and do the same, if you want popular random discovery reading.

Yeah the meta aspect will always dominate the way people market stories and how the system get used in webnovels. It's a given that even if a lot of people say they only write for fun not everyone follows such a philosophy. Likewise the readers that seek out something random are a rare breed. It's normal for readers to use the conventions that the marketing and site hosts came up with, it was after all included for ease of use and convenience for browsing.

 

[Succubiome]

I lived in a city but every book and film in my home felt like a new experience even if later on I would hear slander against it long after, I still enjoyed it.

I do wonder how much this is about the internet vs being with some of your first contacts with some types of stories? Like, I had some of my first contacts with certain types of stories on the internet, and it still felt like a very new experience to me?

In my experience, when I want new experiences in media, the thing to do is often watching/reading/etc something very outside of what I'd normally watch-- if I've never experienced a certain formula and cadence before, my first experience with it can be amazing, even if it isn't considered the best thing ever among it's genre. If I watch foreign films and series in languages I haven't before, or weird subculture things that I'm not familiar with, long-running series I have zero familiarity with, or even TV shows in languages I do understand from decades before I was born, and... well, it's new. It's not always good, but it's fairly often a very new experience.

I dunno if you've tried that, or if it would tend to lead to new media experiences for you, but I am curious.

 

[Cipiteca396]

I didn't have reliable internet access until I got out of high school.

I'll tell you right now, the 'old way' of doing things was worse. 'Old way' in quotes, because it's absolutely still present: You try to guess what the title means, you look at a random artist's picture pasted on the cover, you read the synopsis and maybe the prologue. You hear about it from a friend or relative, the teacher stuffs it in your desk and says it's homework.
Tags are one of the best developments I've seen. It's just so utterly and simply convenient.

My only complaint is that you have to know and understand the tags to apply them, which takes a weird level of research that wasn't necessary before. Of course, that also introduces you to tags that you weren't aware of, which is a great way to expand your horizons and introduce new types of stories to you.

Of course most of this is irrelevant. If you're reading to kill time, chances are you'll read everything eventually. Tags just help you prioritize what you'll read first.

Ughh. I had something I wanted to say, it's on the tip of my tongue, but I can't remember what it was.