Any magic system is OP if you nerff everything else by comparison.

[Jemini]

We have seen this common trope a lot these days. The protagonist has a seldom used and under-appreciated magic system, but they somehow twist it to make it amazingly OP.

This seems like a somewhat game inspired thing. It's often the case in CCGs, MMORPGs, Mobas, and anything else that has competitive custom builds, set-ups, or combinations of characters and/or classes, there's always some meta that develops around a certain combination that the game creators failed to realize was actually really OP. And, the reason they fail to realize it is often because it's fairly off the beaten path from what someone would generally consider using.

In other words, the game makers put all their effort into fine-tuning and balancing the classes that they felt everyone would gravitate toward. Meanwhile, the seldom used classes like Necromancer don't get much thought put into them, and they are left either severely underpowered or overpowered due to failure to really consider what the abilities they gave them will really mean in application.

Then, one day, the community discovers this oversight, and this is how a meta develops.

In writing, it goes one step farther. Generally, when an author writes an exploit like this, they wind up the exact opposite version of this problem. The magic system they give the protagonist is INCREDIBLY overpowered because it's the only magic system the author put any real thought and consideration into. Meanwhile, every other kind of magic in the world is nurffed to death because they didn't think much about it and just gave these other magic schools the most basic form of what everybody thinks those kinds of magic should be able to do. Or, if one of these other magic systems does have something really powerful in it, the magic system they gave to the protagonist perfectly counters that one powerful application.

In other words, the only reason the protagonist is OP is because everything else in the setting is severely nurffed.

In conclusion, you can take my post like this. If you want to really create a good complex magic system, try to think of ways that magic systems NOT owned by your protagonist can be used in a manner that is every single bit as varied and versatile as the one your protagonist is using.

 

[SailusGebel]

Also happens when you stretch the definition of words and apply mental gymnastics.

 

[Assurbanipal_II]

The MC must always be OP in the web novel genre. Otherwise, you get a boring story without progression.

 

[Jemini]

Also happens when you stretch the definition of words and apply mental gymnastics.

It can also apply in reverse, such as was the case with Death Mage. In that series, a lot of the applications of death magic (other than maybe the golems he was able to create) seemed pretty reasonable for things that would come as a result of Death magic.

Instead, the mental gymnastics that were applied were in the direction of considering why it was life magic couldn't do exactly the same thing. It could have been cool to have a 2-sided-coil style dynamic where you could have something like death magic preventing death while life magic preserves life, achieving the exact same effect. But, for some reason, life magic is only able to heal wounds and has no other real application, where as death magic is just ridiculously versatile.

 

[SailusGebel]

It can also apply in reverse, such as was the case with Death Mage. In that series, a lot of the applications of death magic (other than maybe the golems he was able to create) seemed pretty reasonable for things that would come as a result of Death magic.

Instead, the mental gymnastics that were applied were in the direction of considering why it was life magic couldn't do exactly the same thing. It could have been cool to have a 2-sided-coil style dynamic where you could have something like death magic preventing death while life magic preserves life, achieving the exact same effect. But, for some reason, life magic is only able to heal wounds and has no other real application, where as death magic is just ridiculously versatile.

Are you talking about "death mage don't want fourth time reincarantion" novel? If yes, there was an explanation on why it was like that. It wasn't a good, one but it was better than nothing.

 

[Jemini]

Are you talking about "death mage don't want fourth time reincarantion" novel? If yes, there was an explanation on why it was like that. It wasn't a good, one but it was better than nothing.

Like I said, mental gymnastics. I think having an explanation, but not a good one, why something that stretches the imagination is the case is the very definition of mental gymnastics.

 

[SailusGebel]

Like I said, mental gymnastics. I think having an explanation, but not a good one, why something that stretches the imagination is the case is the very definition of mental gymnastics.

I guess.

 

[Premier]

Most times people "Break" a magic system it's by doing really obvious shit any curious person would have done almost immediately.

 

[beast_regards]

The protagonist doesn't find an exploit in the two chapters -> unhappy audience complains about "stupid protagonist" and down vote the story -> unhappy audience create more accounts to down vote the story even further complaining about "stupid protagonist" -> story is invisible because it is rated low -> author stops writing.

 

[Succubiome]

I think if you start with the premise "the MC always wins", it's more interesting to do mildly complicated stuff to get there than have them just Punch Harder every time.

 

[Thraben]

A Checklist:
How many people have magic?
What is the average person who has magic capable of?
Half of them are capable of less than that, and a 1/4th are capable of less than half of that. Same with the inverse.
What causes the discrepancy?
You are an average person.
If you could come up with the answer in a given amount of time, THOSE PEOPLE ALSO COULD.
Why is the average so low, then?
Ignore narrative for a moment, why, in universe, is it so low?
Because there's some sort of prohibitive restriction.
Real people living underneath it, many of them, will have tried to find every way to poke at or break your magic system.
If your protagonist finds a way to break it that no one else has, it forces a reevaluation of the second point in the checklist to be much, much lower.
That isn't a good thing if you want the setting to be taken seriously, or if you want it to make sense.

 

[Jemini]

The protagonist doesn't find an exploit in the two chapters -> unhappy audience complains about "stupid protagonist" and down vote the story -> unhappy audience create more accounts to down vote the story even further complaining about "stupid protagonist" -> story is invisible because it is rated low -> author stops writing.

No problem with that. The premise of my post says nothing against the protagonist finding exploits in their own power. I'm just saying equally or similarly powerful exploits should exist in the other magic systems of the world as well, and it should be possible for other characters to figure them out.

I think a good way I've seen this done before, despite being an OP protagonist plot, would probably be a series called "Release That Witch." In it, the witches all have their own unique power, and the protagonist of the series becomes powerful by helping all the witches to find exploits in their power and then having them help him. (The latter part being made rather easy to do by the fact that the rest of the world persecutes and hunts witches, and he's offering them sanctuary and treating them humanely.)

 

[SailusGebel]

I think a good way I've seen this done before, despite being an OP protagonist plot, would probably be a series called "Release That Witch." In it, the witches all have their own unique power, and the protagonist of the series becomes powerful by helping all the witches to find exploits in their power and then having them help him. (The latter part being made rather easy to do by the fact that the rest of the world persecutes and hunts witches, and he's offering them sanctuary and treating them humanely.)

I won't call it exploits. Using witch that can control fire to weld is not an exploit. I finished the whole novel, and I can't say he found any exploits at all. He simply finds ways to use their powers in a more or less peaceful way. All because he came from a "future" and let's not pretend, cause he is a Mary Sue. I think this is a bad example, but I agree with the rest.

 

[Jemini]

I won't call it exploits. Using witch that can control fire to weld is not an exploit. I finished the whole novel, and I can't say he found any exploits at all. He simply finds ways to use their powers in a more or less peaceful way. All because he came from a "future" and let's not pretend, cause he is a Mary Sue. I think this is a bad example, but I agree with the rest.

Eh, what can I say? It was the easiest concept at hand to point out where every single person with magic had creative and interesting ways their powers could be applied besides the brute-force approach of throwing fireballs at the enemy.

The point was that it doesn't need to just be the protagonist using their own power with a hundred exploits to make the story interesting.

 

[SailusGebel]

Eh, what can I say? It was the easiest concept at hand to point out where every single person with magic had creative and interesting ways their powers could be applied besides the brute-force approach of throwing fireballs at the enemy.

Again, I won't say it is creative per se. You make nature magic produce more crops instead of attacking with vines. Fire magic weld instead of launching fireballs. Wind to help ships move instead of using it to attack, etc. It's not really creative in my book. How to properly explain it. There were other novels where fighting magic was used in a peaceful way. For example how ice magic is used to store food. It does not look like an exploit or creative thing to me.

The thing with Rudeus you've mentioned long ago is a far better example. How his bog magic is actually imbalanced, and terrain manipulation of earth magic is busted. I would say it is exploit, cause people rarely think about it. But I understand that Rudeus is a single "creative" person in Mushoku Tensei, more than that he is MC. In that sense he is a bad example.

 

[Bartun]

Most OP magic system

 

[beast_regards]

No problem with that. The premise of my post says nothing against the protagonist finding exploits in their own power. I'm just saying equally or similarly powerful exploits should exist in the other magic systems of the world as well, and it should be possible for other characters to figure them out.

I think a good way I've seen this done before, despite being an OP protagonist plot, would probably be a series called "Release That Witch." In it, the witches all have their own unique power, and the protagonist of the series becomes powerful by helping all the witches to find exploits in their power and then having them help him. (The latter part being made rather easy to do by the fact that the rest of the world persecutes and hunts witches, and he's offering them sanctuary and treating them humanely.)

It has been a while since I've read "Release That Witch" but I clearly recall it is the series where everything is lopsided in favour of the protagonist, i.e. everything you criticize for the protagonist to have, and I've read far into that extradimensional demon invasion arc (I don't know how it is called in the novel, since I couldn't access my old account on Webnovel)

 

[Thraben]

Most OP magic system


View attachment 30021

My god he converted the pistol's mass directly into energy... that's one powerful magic system

 

[TsuruI_am_a_bot]

We have seen this common trope a lot these days. The protagonist has a seldom used and under-appreciated magic system, but they somehow twist it to make it amazingly OP.

This seems like a somewhat game inspired thing. It's often the case in CCGs, MMORPGs, Mobas, and anything else that has competitive custom builds, set-ups, or combinations of characters and/or classes, there's always some meta that develops around a certain combination that the game creators failed to realize was actually really OP. And, the reason they fail to realize it is often because it's fairly off the beaten path from what someone would generally consider using.

In other words, the game makers put all their effort into fine-tuning and balancing the classes that they felt everyone would gravitate toward. Meanwhile, the seldom used classes like Necromancer don't get much thought put into them, and they are left either severely underpowered or overpowered due to failure to really consider what the abilities they gave them will really mean in application.

Then, one day, the community discovers this oversight, and this is how a meta develops.

In writing, it goes one step farther. Generally, when an author writes an exploit like this, they wind up the exact opposite version of this problem. The magic system they give the protagonist is INCREDIBLY overpowered because it's the only magic system the author put any real thought and consideration into. Meanwhile, every other kind of magic in the world is nurffed to death because they didn't think much about it and just gave these other magic schools the most basic form of what everybody thinks those kinds of magic should be able to do. Or, if one of these other magic systems does have something really powerful in it, the magic system they gave to the protagonist perfectly counters that one powerful application.

In other words, the only reason the protagonist is OP is because everything else in the setting is severely nurffed.

In conclusion, you can take my post like this. If you want to really create a good complex magic system, try to think of ways that magic systems NOT owned by your protagonist can be used in a manner that is every single bit as varied and versatile as the one your protagonist is using.

When a cliche/routine/twist is overdone, it become the norm.
And then the "previous normality" become the twist.

 

[Jemini]

When a cliche/routine/twist is overdone, it become the norm.
And then the "previous normality" become the twist.

Oh yes, I think we're actually starting to see exactly that happening right now. Most of the series that are acclaimed for taking "a different approach" toward these common tropes, those "different approaches" are all just re-asserting old tropes that had fallen off for a while.

It has been a while since I've read "Release That Witch" but I clearly recall it is the series where everything is lopsided in favour of the protagonist, i.e. everything you criticize for the protagonist to have, and I've read far into that extradimensional demon invasion arc (I don't know how it is called in the novel, since I couldn't access my old account on Webnovel)

Fair enough. I was focusing in on the way it was all the other people's magic that was being built up, but it's true all the witches wind up working for the protagonist.

Well, in that case, I will give World Trigger as an example. That series is all about teamwork and team building. And, the talents of the protagonist team is 1 conventionally powerful alien kid, 1 girl who has really high mana but low skill, and the protagonist who has low mana and skill and has to scramble to learn everything, with his only real advantage being the fact he was the first face of the organization that the other two met and so they happen to treat him as their team leader. And, given the advantage of having powerful teammates, he has to pull together a team and avoid holding them back as they try to avoid getting stomped by all the more experienced teams out there, and then the aliens later in the series.