Gaining Direction With Your Writer's Journey

Story_Marc

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There's a book I read earlier this year that helped me contextualize the patterns of fiction writers, based on the observations of an experienced and prolific author who has written over 50 novels in all kinds of different genres and for franchises. It's a short one and I really want to pass along stuff from it to others interested in as quick a manner as possible. And then supplement it with a bit more that can hopefully lead to a greater understanding of writing as a medium.

If I had to summarize everything in two sentences, it's this: each phase as a writer requires focusing on different aspects of the storytelling craft to grow into the best storyteller you can be. Failure to learn important lessons in the right order can lead to mental struggles you can easily see if you look around, assuming you've not experienced them yourself.

At any rate, as always, hope this stuff can help you gain some direction with it. This one is a bit more for covering bigger, overview ideas IMO, that filter into why I spend time sharing information on things like prose.

Also, I am curious about what stage others would consider themselves at, if they agree with what this author asserts or believe it has value.
 

Sebas_Guzman

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Very good video and I sympathize with your position, if not feel that I have been in the same place at times.
All of what I am about to write has been reinforced by my own experiences.

First, I don't think I was ever in Stage 1 or Stage 2 because... English is a second language for me. I didn't end up fixating on the words because there was a certain degree of futility in it. My words were always going to be robotic. I paid for an editor though. So, with already abandoning the words, I focused on the story and focused more on the story structure. This approach led to my first book making enough money to cover my costs and allow me to fund my future.

Now, as it turned out, that first book still wasn't edited well. The good thing was that the first book was good enough to fund my taking time to learn grammar. This leads to my point regarding prose. I agree with you. Pragmatically, you NEED to have a baseline level of grammar for one simple reason. Grammar is the rule that governs how people communicate on the page. If you mess it up, you'll confuse the reader with what you're communicate. You don't need to know all the arcane rules, you need to know the basics at least.
You don't want to be so terrible that every review is pointing it out and thereby dropping your rating on Amazon.

I did have one book that I thought wasn't the best. It was too simple. But I published it, and it became my best. This book by itself changed my life and taught me that simple is sometimes better. I've come to a stage where I just think accessibility and readability are better than complexity when you're going for profit.
I do think there's a way to marry the three and succeed, but I'm not at that level. I dont know how to make the complex accessible. But I hope to get there.
I'd say I'm probably stage 3.
 

Story_Marc

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Oh yeah, you don't actually need to know "arcane" stuff at all. As said in it, an algorithm has even found that to be the literal case. It's also why Orwellian Prose helped as a foundation for me, even if I'm doing a lot lately to blend in more advanced techniques I know. Regardless, just basic grammar can get people by more than anything else.

I find more people struggle with achieving simplicity than anything advanced. It goes back to what I argued in the Sanderson video I mentioned, which quite a few people who have English as a second language were happy to hear since they don't feel like they'll grasp English on the level for more advanced options.

If anything, I feel that's another reason I'm pro-Orwellian prose now as a foundation, just because of how much it can help non-English speakers tell stories that are competently communicated in English without stressing every little thing.

Also, editors are a good suggestion for those who aren't 1st language English speakers. I really should do some research into that approach in the future to give recommendations for people on how to do it. =
 

WeaverofFables

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EDIT: In hindsight, I should not be allowed on the internet before I drink my first coffee. Now that I've had the engine oil, I still disagree with the book's points, but I can somewhat see where the author is coming from, and I agree with that principle. What I disagree with the most is the idea that simplifying your prose makes you a better writer; it just makes you a successful author.
 
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Tabula_Rasa

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I don't know if this helps... but I came from a screenwriting background. So what I learned was script to screen,
thus my journey is slightly different.

1. Close reading and analysis of text or media, What is "theme"? (the film's central, unifying concept that evokes a universal human experience)
2. After I learn of "Mise-en-scène" which is location/mood/ setting/set design. What is subtext? How to use silence? What is "negative space" or "absence"?
3. Then there is the idea of structure, turning points and beats
4. Then I learned the concept of set-up and pay-off, or more commonly known as "Chekhov's gun" and Foreshadowing.
5. From there it was "enter late, leave early." "Keep it simple stupid" "Show, don't tell" "Economy of action" This is all to do with pace, flow, action and efficiency of a scene.
6. Then, what makes emotion in the audience, what is characterisation, relationship, what makes people feel, sympathy, empathy, apathy, which relies heavily on 2 and 5.

It is from this point on I started writing, and am trying to pick up what is described in stage 1 and 2. I did not have experience nor have the need for things in stage 1 and 2 before, because the scripts just look like this


And directors, cinematographers, music composers and editors fill in the blanks. So I know not pros, grammar, and sentence structures.

I don't think I am out of 1 and 2. but frankly I don't really sit on this journey. That being said, I think a journey to develop as an author would be nice, at the same time people don't fall neatly into the journey. ...

I will say tho, a lot of people become writers when they consume A LOT of books, film and TV. on some level they have picked up things from stage 3 and 4... But to do so... to tacitly absorb that knowledge is not the same as knowing how it works.

Knowing the mechanics of HOW it works is important. I think...

P.S I lost a lot of respect for Robert Mckee, when he was shitting on people using voice overs. Back then I was watching a lot of anime, and you can't go 3 mins in an anime without an internal V.O soo.... yeah :blobrofl::blobrofl::blobrofl:

EDIT: In hindsight, I should not be allowed on the internet before I drink my first coffee. Now that I've had the engine oil, I still disagree with the book's points, but I can somewhat see where the author is coming from, and I agree with that principle. What I disagree with the most is the idea that simplifying your prose makes you a better writer; it just makes you a successful author.
:blob_happy:
I read it all... It will be our secret
:blob_hide:
 
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Story_Marc

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EDIT: In hindsight, I should not be allowed on the internet before I drink my first coffee. Now that I've had the engine oil, I still disagree with the book's points, but I can somewhat see where the author is coming from, and I agree with that principle. What I disagree with the most is the idea that simplifying your prose makes you a better writer; it just makes you a successful author.
Successful or better, it all depends on whatever you want out of it. I'd argue that what's "good" or "better" than another is entirely subjective and relies on taste. From a pragmatic perspective, however, I stand by the idea that people don't need as much as some might tout to get by. I'm not against doing more, but it isn't the most important thing in the world. Which is why so many can be successful. At the end of the day, it's a matter of getting your story across.


Also, I read everything myself. :ROFLMAO: ...And have it all saved because of an email. There are actually some points I agree on personally, but that's something I wish to go into when developing my own stuff based on observations and learning even more about other people's experiences. I need more patterns to fit with my data.
I don't think I am out of 1 and 2. but frankly I don't really sit on this journey. That being said, I think a journey to develop as an author would be nice, at the same time people don't fall neatly into the journey. ...

I will say tho, a lot of people become writers when they consume A LOT of books, film and TV. on some level they have picked up things from stage 3 and 4... But to do so... to tacitly absorb that knowledge is not the same as knowing how it works.

Knowing the mechanics of HOW it works is important. I think...

P.S I lost a lot of respect for Robert Mckee, when he was shitting on people using voice overs. Back then I was watching a lot of anime, and you can't go 3 mins in an anime without an internal V.O soo.... yeah :blobrofl::blobrofl::blobrofl:
I recall that myself in his book. XD I disagree with him on that based on my own experiences, but eh, my personal outlook, nobody should be seen as being 100% right about every single thing. I'm all about seeking understanding above all else. It's been some time since I read his stuff on that part, but I remember him not being as into it. I'd have to re-read again (or check my notes) to remember why...

But yeah, coming back around, there is something in Story he mentions that... well, I think that fits into what both you and Weaver mention that touches more into what I've learned about personal development in general. I'm far more based around the concept of Mastery as discussed by Robert Greene in his book, as what he charts out corresponds and far expands on something I was working on for years due to my fascination with the concept due to the book Bruce Lee: Warrior Within. Smith's book has helped me think about this more as I break down things, and combine them with others, but right now I'm thinking the most efficient path starts with being a self-indulgent mimic. Like, we start there and often there's this patchwork of knowledge that is picked up, which... can have both pros and cons.

People try, share, and then will run into their first failures. I do think some basics with communication skills are important to develop around this point, which I feel isn't too difficult if someone has the right teachers. It's a matter of finding them is the problem. Also stuff with coping with setbacks and all that, which is why I'm far more into taking a Kaizen approach, and... well, this is a lot of stuff I'll develop more in the future with my own analysis.
 

Tabula_Rasa

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on that part,
I too have not thought about Robert Mckee... a for a long time...

Tis was the summer of 2007, when Fullmetal alchemist just ended and Deathnote was all the rage~

If I remember correctly, and will paraphrase from memory that may be wrong.

McKee was leaning in hard on the "show, don't tell" axiom. . this is within the domain of screenwriting, but he supposits that V.O is bad screenwriting because what is "told" in a V.O is better to be "shown".

Or something along those lines... I agree to some degree, but that is only for bad V.O. there is some value as in all things. Also, I think at that point I placed Mckee in the category of the "traditional method", but not indie/ experimental film...

Personally, I have not decided if it's better, as a creator, to learn the rules first, and then learn to break them. Or to start off with no regard of what the rules are, and then refine the craft by finding the "box", so being "outside of the box" actually means something,
 

Story_Marc

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For the sake of anybody else reading this, I'll add in an excerpt from Story so you can know what we're talking about. :ROFLMAO:

VOICE-OVER NARRATION
Voice-over narration is yet another way to divulge exposition. Like the Flashback, it’s done well or ill. The test of narration is this: Ask yourself, “If I were to strip the voice-over out of my screenplay, would the story still be well told?” If the answer is yes… keep it in. Generally, the principle “Less is more” applies: the more economical the technique, the more impact it has. Therefore, anything that can be cut should be cut. There are, however, exceptions. If narration can be removed and the story still stands on its feet well told, then you’ve probably used narration for the only good reason—as counterpoint.

Counterpoint narration is Woody Allen’s great gift. If we were to cut the voice-over from HANNAH AND HER SISTERS or HUSBANDS AND WIVES his stories would still be lucid and effective. But why would we? His narration offers wit, ironies, and insights that can’t be done any other way. Voice-over to add nonnarrative counterpoint can be delightful.

Occasionally, brief telling narration, especially at the opening or during transitions between acts, such as in BARRY LYNDON, is inoffensive, but the trend toward using telling narration throughout a film threatens the future of our art. More and more films by some of the finest directors from Hollywood and Europe indulge in this indolent practice. They saturate the screen with lush photography and lavish production values, then tie images together with a voice droning on the soundtrack, turning the cinema into what was once known as Classic Comic Books.

Many of us were first exposed to the works of major writers by reading Classic Comics, novels in cartoon images with captions that told the story. That’s fine for children, but it’s not cinema. The art of cinema connects Image A via editing, camera, or lens movement with Image B, and the effect is meanings C, D, and E, expressed without explanation. Recently, film after film slides a steady-cam through rooms and corridors, up and down streets, panning sets and cast while a narrator talks, talks, talks voice-over, telling us about a character’s upbringing, or his dreams and fears, or explaining the politics of the story’s society—until the film becomes little more than multimillion-dollar books-on-tape, illustrated.

It takes little talent and less effort to fill a soundtrack with explanation. “Show, don’t tell” is a call for artistry and discipline, a warning to us not to give in to laziness but to set creative limitations that demand the fullest use of imagination and sweat. Dramatizing every turn into a natural, seamless flow of scenes is hard work, but when we allow ourselves the comfort of “on the nose” narration we gut our creativity, eliminate the audience’s curiosity, and destroy narrative drive.

More importantly, “Show, don’t tell” means respect the intelligence and sensitivity of your audience. Invite them to bring their best selves to the ritual, to watch, think, feel, and draw their own conclusions. Do not put them on your knee as if they were children and “explain” life, for the misuse and overuse of narration is not only slack, it’s patronizing. And if the trend toward it continues, cinema will degrade into adulterated novels and our art will shrivel.

To study the skillful design of exposition, I suggest a close analysis of JFK. Obtain Oliver Stone’s screenplay and/or the video and break the film down, scene by scene, listing all the facts, indisputable or alleged, it contains. Then note how Stone splintered this Mount Everest of information into its vital pieces, dramatized each bit, pacing the progression of revelations. It is a masterpiece of craftsmanship.

Reading over this again, it seems he's less against it and more against the constant poor use of it and how lazily it was used, particularly with exposition.

Anyway, my current answer is to learn principles early on, but the only way for people to understand the value of principles is often for them to mess up and suffer first. That way, they choose to accept the wisdom for themselves & it comes from a place of understanding as opposed to feeling they're being forced to do something. Nobody should blindly follow anything, but I recognize that force isn't ideal either. Harmony cannot be enforced on people from the outside. It must inwardly radiate.

I believe all books, articles, videos, etc. (myself included) are just a finger that points in the direction of wisdom as creators, not wisdom in and of itself. The only reliable authority is the evidence of one's own direct experience. That said, time is limited when it comes to life and we don't need to go it alone. Hence why it helps to consider what others are trying to convey and use it to make sense of stuff for oneself.

It's why one of my beliefs is that one shouldn't seek advice, but understanding.
 
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