Girls Love tags used in novels with male romance

[OvidLemma]

Novels can be complicated, and they often defy easy categorization. For instance, I have tagged my novel, Visions of Dark & Light as GL genre because a major part of the plot is the sexual awakening of my FMC (Anise, a mage in training), and her crush and subsequent romantic relationship with Franyi, her best friend / girlfriend. At no point is there even a hint of romance between Anise and any men and she feels little to no attraction toward them.

However, Anise is not my only MC. I've got a MMC (Ezra, an "infernic" - a summoned soul in a possessed human body). Ezra's narrative occupies about half of the story, and his story involves a developing relationship with Rill, a fellow infernic and former fire goddess. Ezra's relationship is MF and comprises about a third of the romantic scenes.

If you cut out Ezra's story, Anise's story (which has more focus on her budding sexuality than Ezra's story has on his) is clearly GL with no caveats. Hers is a complex story that deals with social acceptance and the consequences of her sexuality, but it's also got a lot of fluff and tender moments. However, Ezra's story is equally important to the narrative and the two MC's stories are intertwined and inseparable. So the question here is whether this justifies removing the GL tag or demoting it to subplot, where there are many other GL stories that spend less overall focus on the relationship between the FMC and her female love interest.

Basically, tags themselves are a bit blurry and open to interpretation, and it's unfair to expect something more specific and idiosyncratic from them from a general fiction site like SH. The only thing that can 100% encapsulate the contents of the story is the story itself. The author has a responsibility to set expectations in their synopsis and with a good faith attempt at accurate tags, but that's never going to accommodate 100% of readers, and readers also have the responsibility to look at the tags and synopsis if they have specific requirements in a story that the author might have clarified.

 

[Queenfisher]

Well yes, she can be raped. If you have a problem with that, avoid the Rape tag.

If I wanted to mean Rape I'd call it Rape. You ignored the other two, and I understand it -- because they are gray area. They do not fit the tags and are subject to "Interpretative Tagging".

Plus, court officials, doctors, psychologists, philosophers, etc cannot properly define for all the instances the concept of Gray Rape which while being called "Rape" is too vague to have everyone agree what it means. Put there the Unacknowledged Rape as well, where the victim DOES NOT consider it Rape but the society does. But of course, SH tags cover everything! What scientists cannot reach the consensus on, the SH tags will absolutely be able to solve...

Also, Stockholm Syndrome,
Gaslighting,
Initiation Rites and Ritual Sex,
Bacchanalia orgies,
Traditions-based education,
Being "raised in a cave" (and all instances of it),
"Born yesterday" concepts,
Peer Pressure,
Peer Contagion,
Pity-fucking --

-- and countless other social situations would result in consent being given and both parties willing to have sex. But not actually sharing attraction, thus resulting in a GL + Sex with a Man without being tagged Bi.

Like I said -- there will always be gray areas that do not fit the Tag System. Thus will result in "Interpretative Tagging" that someone somewhere is bound to find "incorrect tagging". Hence the issue.

i've seen bisexual tags used elsewhere for F/F stories mostly when they've had previous relationships with men before the time of the story but dont actually have het relationships in the actual story. IMO that's the only "acceptable" use of bisexual protags in a pure GL story (ie one that doesnt have an actual bisexual protag who has relationships with both during the story).

========
i agree with OP and @BenJepheneT though. Authors need to tag properly their stories to the content that comes out, not "oh the GL's in the future but for now it's all het" or tagging GL for levels of content that the genre doesnt apply to.

Unfortunately, IMO is only that -- IMO. Authors "needing" to tag correctly = "that's the job for the Tag Police Department!"

But we don't have any. Mrs Dalloway and Yellow Wallpaper might be GL which involves a relationship with a man while not being Bisexual Protag. What should we do with them? Allow them to choose their tags however they want?

That opens the door for those who will use it incorrectly, then, so the whole "authors need to tag correctly" thing is impossible even in theory.

________________________

Take tags like 'Ruthless Protag" vs "Cruel Protag". They are SUPER interpretative as are "Kuudere" "Cold Protag", "Asocial Protag", and maybe even "Apathetic Protag". Yet somehow the enormous area of all flavors of "GL" is 100% non-interpretative?

Such "creative definition" tags are a different category of tags altogether from the objective, factual tags like "Male", "Female", "Nonbinary" that can potentially cover everything.

Which is interesting...

@Moonpearl -- may I ask if there is any dissection of "Factual/Objective" tags vs the "Open to Interpretation" ones in the tag category list you are making? Since they would have a different weight in reader satisfaction if they are ~incorrect? Not demanding any, just checking because there's obviously difference between them.

 

[AliceShiki]

-- and countless other social situations would result in consent being given and both parties willing to have sex. But not actually sharing attraction, thus resulting in a GL + Sex with a Man without being tagged Bi.

Those handful of very specific and niche situations will probably be ridiculously obvious if you bother with looking at the synopsis, genres and tags of the story. So I hardly see any issue.

Allow them to choose their tags however they want?

Yes. Differently from NU, Scribbly is a site that the authors choose their genres and tags, this is not a user-managed site, but an Author-managed one.

If you disagree with the way an author used their tags and/or genres, you gotta complain directly to them. And they are entitled to completely ignore you as well.

Take tags like 'Ruthless Protag" vs "Cruel Protag". They are SUPER interpretative as are "Kuudere" "Cold Protag", "Asocial Protag", and maybe even "Apathetic Protag". Yet somehow the enormous area of all flavors of "GL" is 100% non-interpretative?

Genres and tags are different. Though I don't see how any of the tags you mentioned are super interpretative, they're all fairly straight-forward.

It's usually the other way around. Genres are broad, while tags tend to be specific.

 

[Moonpearl]

Yellow Wallpaper might be GL

???
No, never. That's a psychological horror with no romantic elements. She's obsessed with the "woman" in the wallpaper only because she's driving her crazy.

"Mrs Dalloway" also doesn't count as f/f fiction to people, despite its romantic subplot.

@Moonpearl -- may I ask if there is any dissection of "Factual/Objective" tags vs the "Open to Interpretation" ones in the tag category list you are making? Since they would have a different weight in reader satisfaction if they are ~incorrect? Not demanding any, just checking because there's obviously difference between them.

No, because that would require making a less objective judgement call on the tags. I was going to add an extra post with my parsing of the least understood lists, so there was at least something to start people off, but the goal is just to create an inventory of the tags that people won't become instantly overwhelmed by.

 

[Queenfisher]

Those handful of very specific and niche situations will probably be ridiculously obvious if you bother with looking at the synopsis, genres and tags of the story. So I hardly see any issue.

Thanks for answering, but can you give me a breakdown of what you mean by this specific quote?

What would be ridiculously obvious if I have a combo of:

GL + orgy ? (among other tags)

How would that imply there is a F+M that will include the protagonist who is a lesbian?

Or GL + Religions? (Or even Religious Sex, not sure such a tag exists, though)

How is that ridiculously obviously implying there is going to be M+F?

The same goes for every single one of them. GL + Gaslighting might be talking about literally anything other than sex, but also about sex. GL+Born yesterday (such a tag does not exist, the closest concepts would be Pygmalion/AI/Puppet, etc) might imply literally just that the protagonist is a lesbian who was created from scratch recently, etc.

Sorry but I still don't understand what's so ridiculously obvious about these?

And in case you say it's going to be the job for the Synopsis AND tags used together -- how do you define the sexual tags of Game of Thrones?

Malazan? Wheel of Time? F-r-i-e-n-d-s? Anita Blake stories? How I Met Your Mother? Office? Stark Trek? Anything that can focus on Multiple protags or across such a huge stretch of time with a single protagonist that it will cover a hell ton of stuff that will not be disclosed by the synopsis?

Your solution benefits the stories with a simple premise focusing on the GL as the main genre but ignores everything that does not fit the general criteria.

Above all -- like you say,

If you disagree with the way an author used their tags and/or genres, you gotta complain directly to them. And they are entitled to completely ignore you as well.

So... that kind of defeats the purpose of saying "authors should tag correctly". Because, why should they?

If you're talking about this "ideally" -- then fair enough. But then the OP is still valid and remains unsolved.

Though I don't see how any of the tags you mentioned are super interpretative, they're all fairly straight-forward.

These tags do not actually describe people, though . If I want to write a complex character approaching a real-life person and all their facets, these tags will not suffice and thus, to choose one (or even two, in order to not overload the tags), I'd have to fling it. Which, for me, counts as "Creative Interpretation".

Let's be real -- even the lists of "Top 10 most famous Kuuderes in anime" will have arguments in the comment section that disagree with some character being labeled a "kuudere" and not a "dandere" or "shundere" or whatever else instead. Even archetypes can sometimes be gray-ish in later reinterpretations of the tag labels.

(Like Akane from Ranma 1/2 might be one of the iconic tsunderes, but would not fit the mainstream view of a tsundere used today for a lot of people).

???
No, never. That's a psychological horror with no romantic elements. She's obsessed with the "woman" in the wallpaper only because she's driving her crazy.

"Mrs Dalloway" also doesn't count as f/f fiction to people, despite its romantic subplot.

That's why I said "might be". If I write Yellow Wallpaper to the exactness now only with a slight romanticism added, what tags would I use for it?

Ditto on Mrs Dalloway. What I mean by this is that I can write a novel that's exactly the same as these two, only with slight alterations that suddenly warrant an added tag. They would become very hard to define because of their style, messaging, and the complex social dynamics used in their premises that deny easy tagging.

Sorry I confused anyone with my wording! -- I am usually just worried about works that defy categorization because I enjoy reading/writing them. Plus I don't know any popular books that infringe on the discussion of complicated social topics around femininity and lean to GL reinterpretations, so used Yellow Wallpaper and Mrs Dalloway for a hypothetical argument. But I do not doubt that such books exist.

We just can't find them because they slip through the cracks of most genre generalizations.

So, say -- if I wanted to explore the complex social dynamics of the early 20th century patriarchal frustration in a woman in Civil War Russia who also has a romance with a real, lesbian Kthlulhu under her bed while continuing to have sex with her boyfriend while not being attracted to him (but also consenting because she pities him, or whatever) -- nothing would stop me from using ANY combination of tags I want because the premise I just described would slip through the cracks of tag definitions most of the time (especially if I keep adding stuff to the premise). So, what then?

How do I tag it "correctly" and how do I deliver it to the target audience and what if somebody considers my 'Interpretative Tagging" incorrect?

No, because that would require making a less objective judgement call on the tags. I was going to add an extra post with my parsing of the least understood lists, so there was at least something to start people off, but the goal is just to create an inventory of the tags that people won't become instantly overwhelmed by.

Thanks, I figured so. Just intrigued with @AliceShiki 's reference to NU being tagged by users not authors. The discrepancy of the methods between SH and NU is amusing, and probably the sole reason it causes this kind of confusion to the readers (like the OP)...

 

[yansusustories]

I think I've already said enough on my stance regarding the tags in the other threads (in short: just give us an m/f relationship tag and we could close this whole case), so I just wanted to jump in and say something to this real quick:

Thanks, I figured so. Just intrigued with @AliceShiki 's reference to NU being tagged by users not authors. The discrepancy of the methods between SH and NU is amusing, and probably the sole reason it causes this kind of confusion to the readers (like the OP)...

Neither approach ever works 100% IMO.

Authors are just one person with their own interpretation of tags and they know the endgame. So they can tag for things happening later from the very beginning long before readers know that this will be part of the story. Especially with stories that have many chapters but might only update once a week or even less than that, this means that authors could potentially tag for something that will only become known to readers a year in the future.
Now, I've seen people say that authors should add tags over time when it becomes relevant to the story but that's wrong IMO considering that the tags are supposed to give readers an idea of what kind of story they're getting into from the get-go. E.g., if the story is going to feature something in chapter 100 of 150, I'd like to know that when the story starts with chapter 1 because that might influence whether I even start the story (see this thread: someone might not want to read a GL novel that features an m/f relationship). If the author only adds that tag in chapter 99, this doesn't help the readers. On the other hand, adding it early means that readers that are waiting for the specific thing to play a role in the story might feel it is tagged wrong. Neither of that is optimal but can't be helped.

On the other hand, even several readers tagging doesn't necessarily guarantee that tags are right. Personally, I have experienced this both as a reader and as an author:
For one, I read a story on NU that featured rape. The story had lots of ratings and reviews (so was obviously read often), none of which mentioned rape, and it was not tagged accordingly. I can only presume that this was because the rapist was the so-called 'lover' (who also happened to be the ML in the end) so for most people, it might not have 'counted' (which is silly because the MC protested and got tied up - I can't imagine a clearer scenario of rape than that). So, despite the novel being read often, nobody bothered to tag something this important which is something that would likely deter a reader from reading (and that readers are often told to stay away from if they can't handle it). The advantage in numbers for people that could tag doesn't help apparently.
The second one was over on webnovel. Originally, they had readers tag the stories as well. Tags would show up visibly only after being suggested by five readers but they were already searchable after the first instance of the tag being used on a specific story. Now, imagine my surprise when I was asked why my story appeared under the 'GL' tag. I have no idea because I clearly only write BL. Heck, the cast of my stories is probably 75% male. There isn't even the hint of a GL subplot there but people still tagged it as such. I can only guess what was going on there. Trolls? Someone who genuinely thought it would feature a GL relationship? I'll never know.

So, readers will not only not tag important parts of s tory (e.g., rape) but will also tag wrongly. And I'd imagine (only a guess on my part though) that readers will often tag when a story is rather new and doesn't have many tags yet but get lazy when the story has been ongoing for a longer time and won't bother to add new tags that reflect the current state of the story.
Actually, in regard to that, my experience on webnovel was that I had to actively beg readers to add tags and even suggest some to make someone go and add tags. I don't know if things work better on NU but I immensely dislike the idea of the tagging to be taken out of my hands and needing to rely on others when I am clearly the person who knows the story best.
Having readers tag stories is also a system that severely favors authors/stories with a bigger following compared to those with only a handful of readers because more people reading usually means more people that are willing to tag as well. Back when webnovel did this, authors were actually connecting over the forums and discord and tag each other's stories with the tags the author suggested just so they could get visible tags as well because it was almost impossible to get even those five readers to tag their stories.

 

[Moonpearl]

That's why I said "might be". If I write Yellow Wallpaper to the exactness now only with a slight romanticism added, what tags would I use for it?

Ditto on Mrs Dalloway. What I mean by this is that I can write a novel that's exactly the same as these two, only with slight alterations that suddenly warrant an added tag. They would become very hard to define because of their style, messaging, and the complex social dynamics used in their premises that deny easy tagging.

Sorry I confused anyone with my wording! -- I am usually just worried about works that defy categorization because I enjoy reading/writing them. Plus I don't know any popular books that infringe on the discussion of complicated social topics around femininity and lean to GL reinterpretations, so used Yellow Wallpaper and Mrs Dalloway for a hypothetical argument. But I do not doubt that such books exist.

We just can't find them because they slip through the cracks of most genre generalizations.

So, say -- if I wanted to explore the complex social dynamics of the early 20th century patriarchal frustration in a woman in Civil War Russia who also has a romance with a real, lesbian Kthlulhu under her bed while continuing to have sex with her boyfriend while not being attracted to him (but also consenting because she pities him, or whatever) -- nothing would stop me from using ANY combination of tags I want because the premise I just described would slip through the cracks of tag definitions most of the time (especially if I keep adding stuff to the premise). So, what then?

How do I tag it "correctly" and how do I deliver it to the target audience and what if somebody considers my 'Interpretative Tagging" incorrect?

Delivery is everything. Those slight alterations aren't nothing - they can change the whole genre of a story. If "Mrs Dalloway" wanted to be a GL, it would shift the focus much more greatly onto the lesbian characters and move the other elements at least slightly more into the background.

For a real GL that does explore patriarchy and complex themes while having its protagonist have relationships with men, look no further than "Revolutionary Girl Utena" the series. (The film is a sequel.)
Why does Utena get to be GL despite the mishmash of relationships? Because the anime never makes us doubt, for a second, that its story is about the relationship between Utena and Anthy. They're our protagonists, the ones we focus on, the ones whose feelings are front and centre and matter the most. Anthy is never shelved for us even when she's shelved for Utena.

For a visual illustration of this storytelling tactic, you can also look to the "Editing Is Everything" channel on Youtube. Exploiting this concept to amuse viewers is its whole thing.
Here's a sample, where "Tangled" the Disney film is re-sold in 7 different genres:

Thanks, I figured so. Just intrigued with @AliceShiki 's reference to NU being tagged by users not authors. The discrepancy of the methods between SH and NU is amusing, and probably the sole reason it causes this kind of confusion to the readers (like the OP)...

The authors of the novels being tagged on NU aren't there to tag them. Users are the only people.

There were suggestions for a "suggested tags" system to be implemented here on SH, like there are on some Japanese sites, but it obviously hasn't been picked up. This would have allowed users to add "soft tags" to novels.

 

[Sabruness]

They're our protagonists, the ones we focus on, the ones whose feelings are front and centre and matter the most.

bingo! That's where the main focus of tagging should be. i dont care if there are het side character relationships in a GL story. What i expect, as a reader, is for the tags to accurately reflect the protagonist(s). If a story is tagged GL as a genre with no sight, sign or mention of a protagonist het relationship (as well) then i would expect the protagonist(s) to be only with and into girls.

That's why tagging properly and appropriately to the content is so damn important. If things were tagged properly, whether through the actual tags or the synopsis, then there would be very low risk of being baited except from trollish authors who would want to bait.

 

[Queenfisher]

I think I've already said enough on my stance regarding the tags in the other threads (in short: just give us an m/f relationship tag and we could close this whole case), so I just wanted to jump in and say something to this real quick:

Oh, I am also tired of this discussion, but I continue making my point because the replies of "general tags work fine" keep being repeated here over and over. But then there're threads like this one...

I guess I just can't understand all the "it should", "people ought to tag it correctly", "I bet if everyone did it right, then..." because these are not even arguments or solutions or even advice. They're well-wishes.

So yes, just give us m/f and at least these types of discussions won't ever happen again...

Neither approach ever works 100% IMO.

(...)

I agree with so much of this, thanks!

But I would never suggest that, I think! I like @Moonpearl 's suggestion in the post that follows yours. The "soft tags"? That sounds nice because it takes the best out of the two approaches and gives all the choice of which to use to the potential reader.

Delivery is everything. Those slight alterations aren't nothing - they can change the whole genre of a story. If "Mrs Dalloway" wanted to be a GL, it would shift the focus much more greatly onto the lesbian characters and move the other elements at least slightly more into the background.

For a real GL that does explore patriarchy and complex themes while having its protagonist have relationships with men, look no further than "Revolutionary Girl Utena" the series. (The film is a sequel.)
Why does Utena get to be GL despite the mishmash of relationships? Because the anime never makes us doubt, for a second, that its story is about the relationship between Utena and Anthy. They're our protagonists, the ones we focus on, the ones whose feelings are front and centre and matter the most. Anthy is never shelved for us even when she's shelved for Utena.

lemented here on SH, like there are on some Japanese sites, but it obviously hasn't been picked up. This would have allowed users to add "soft tags" to novels.

Thanks for the suggestion! I have always wanted to watch Utena and now it definitely rises up my to-watch list ^^. Also, just curious -- what tags (relationships-wise) would you give to Utena if it were a SH book?

I agree that delivery is key in writing and reading.

But when someone starts talking about delivery of a premise -- it implies they already read/watched/consumed the art piece in question. Tagging "correctly" (whatever that means) is needed before that happens as a representation and (preferably) correct advertisement of what's inside. And reaction to tags can happen before the person actually finishes the entire story (like @yansusustories says in her example above).

Thus, as before, reiterating my and other people points -- having more tags ==> more opportunity to represent our stores efficiently and approximate the actual content rather than try to squeeze our square stories into round holes of the "general tags" that already exist.

(Yeah, I know I'm preaching to the choir because we are on the same side in the (M/F tag) argument but that last part is not directed at you )

Spoiler: Other examples of Classic Lit against Easy Tags

Hmmm...

I'd say that I can imagine Mrs Dalloway as a GL not shifting its genre too much if at all. (I mean, if I go the route of Virginia Woolf's contemporary, T.S. Eliot -- I wouldn't have to change anything, but sprinkle in a ton of obscure references, literary allegories, metaphors, and etc to change the meaning. It will be almost an undecipherable mess in its chosen genre/style, but technically -- would still be GL. Albeit extreeeemely niche).

Or, I saw that Woolf's Orlando is actually categorized as "subversive lesbian text" by some lit critics even though I think Orlando never has sex or even romantic relationship outside of M+F. Also, Kokoro -- doesn't actually go into BL but is nonetheless considered one of the first "BL-like texts". Likewise, Death in Venice or Magic Mountain would also fit the bill of being suggestive of BL in extremely complicated topics of sexuality and identity that defy easy tagging.

Trying to tag them SH-style would break my brain, seriously But it doesn't mean that books of this sort/genre/style will never be published on SH? And thus, they will also be a pain in the ass to tag "correctly", invariably making people unhappy. Which is what I tried (unsuccessfully) to imply with my reference to Yellow Wallpaper and Mrs Dalloway. (Sorry about that, again!) That some texts are harder to interpret than others. And thus, harder to tag "correctly"... They would benefit greatly from having some sort of "gray area" tags, perhaps?

 

[AliceShiki]

Malazan? Wheel of Time? F-r-i-e-n-d-s? Anita Blake stories? How I Met Your Mother? Office? Stark Trek? Anything that can focus on Multiple protags or across such a huge stretch of time with a single protagonist that it will cover a hell ton of stuff that will not be disclosed by the synopsis?

If you have Multiple Protagonists, then obviously any tag related to the protagonist won't be able to apply to them all.

These tags do not actually describe people, though . If I want to write a complex character approaching a real-life person and all their facets, these tags will not suffice and thus, to choose one (or even two, in order to not overload the tags), I'd have to fling it. Which, for me, counts as "Creative Interpretation".

Yes, people are not capable of being defined by a single word, but even complex characters can be roughly defined by a handful of words. Sure, the description won't be 100% accurate, but if it portrays 80% of what the character shows to the readers, that's good enough.

I'm fairly sure you can think of a handful of protagonists you'd instantly categorize as Ruthless from the top of your head, even though there are clearly much more facets to said character than just that.

Thanks, I figured so. Just intrigued with @AliceShiki 's reference to NU being tagged by users not authors.

NU only has readers and translators, it's simply impossible to have the authors tag their work directly.

In scribbly OTOH, we are here to tag our works, so it makes much more sense to leave that up to us.

For one, I read a story on NU that featured rape. The story had lots of ratings and reviews (so was obviously read often), none of which mentioned rape, and it was not tagged accordingly. I can only presume that this was because the rapist was the so-called 'lover' (who also happened to be the ML in the end) so for most people, it might not have 'counted' (which is silly because the MC protested and got tied up - I can't imagine a clearer scenario of rape than that). So, despite the novel being read often, nobody bothered to tag something this important which is something that would likely deter a reader from reading (and that readers are often told to stay away from if they can't handle it). The advantage in numbers for people that could tag doesn't help apparently.

Please add the Rape tag to said story then.

NU's system obviously isn't perfect, but it works on 95% of the cases.

The mods can't read all stories, so they have no way of knowing that a tag is missing from a story... Similarly, they can't know if a tag is in a story when it shouldn't be.

The system needs users to make it work. If the users don't do their job properly... Then the system ultimately fails.

 

[yansusustories]

I guess I just can't understand all the "it should", "people ought to tag it correctly", "I bet if everyone did it right, then..." because these are not even arguments or solutions or even advice. They're well-wishes.

I'm kind of confused with this as well, especially because there are several examples being brought up where new tags would be helpful in being able to tag right and where the existing tags don't encompass everything. I guess I could just ignore the whole discussion since I currently don't have any stakes in this since so far, I haven't had the need to tag a het romance in any of my stories but I do have some plans for the future where it would be nice to have the option

I agree with so much of this, thanks!

But I would never suggest that, I think! I like @Moonpearl 's suggestion in the post that follows yours. The "soft tags"? That sounds nice because it takes the best out of the two approaches and gives all the choice of which to use to the potential reader.

Ah, I didn't think anyone wanted to. Just wanted to give my take on both systems since you mentioned you found the difference interesting. Personally, while I think soft tags would be interesting (don't think they're going to be implemented, not anytime soon at least if ever) I am perfectly fine with just tagging myself. As I said, I trust that I know my story best and what I think would be appropriate in the long run. Especially if there's an upper limit of tags.

Please add the Rape tag to said story then.

NU's system obviously isn't perfect, but it works on 95% of the cases.

The mods can't read all stories, so they have no way of knowing that a tag is missing from a story... Similarly, they can't know if a tag is in a story when it shouldn't be.

The system needs users to make it work. If the users don't do their job properly... Then the system ultimately fails.

Don't worry, I already did back then. I was just comparing since @Queenfisher mentioned the differences so I wanted to give my take on both systems and where I think some problems arise.
Also, people are always saying on these threads (both this and the other two that are basically having the same discussion) that authors should just tag right so I guess I feel like we should point out somewhere that having readers tag is about as good as that too. Yeah, NU's system works in 95% of the cases as you said. I'm pretty sure SH's system also works in 95% of cases. But we still have this kind of thread where people are saying authors tag wrong or even bait readers (which would be malicious mis-tagging even) while, in fact, the authors might just have a different interpretation what a tag (or genre) includes. I mean we have seen in the discussions that people have vastly different ideas on that.

 

[AliceShiki]

Don't worry, I already did back then. I was just comparing since @Queenfisher mentioned the differences so I wanted to give my take on both systems and where I think some problems arise.

*shakes pompoms*

Also, people are always saying on these threads (both this and the other two that are basically having the same discussion) that authors should just tag right so I guess I feel like we should point out somewhere that having readers tag is about as good as that too. Yeah, NU's system works in 95% of the cases as you said. I'm pretty sure SH's system also works in 95% of cases. But we still have this kind of thread where people are saying authors tag wrong or even bait readers (which would be malicious mis-tagging even) while, in fact, the authors might just have a different interpretation what a tag (or genre) includes. I mean we have seen in the discussions that people have vastly different ideas on that.

Aye aye, that makes sense~

 

[Moonpearl]

Thanks for the suggestion! I have always wanted to watch Utena and now it definitely rises up my to-watch list ^^. Also, just curious -- what tags (relationships-wise) would you give to Utena if it were a SH book?

First, I'd make sure to give it the "Psychological" genre. You expect a lot more mindfuckery with that genre, so people are more open to distressing and uncomfortable content in a story with it. It would also go some way towards promising that the BxG relationships aren't just for drama.

From the romantic/relationship tags I've excavated so far, I'd say:

• Slow romance
• Subtle romance
• Couple growth
• Conflicting loyalties
• Cohabitation
• Incest
• Affair
• Brother complex
• Forced into a relationship
• Glasses-wearing Love Interests
• Boys Love subplot

In addition, I would pair it with:

• Abusive characters
• Manipulative characters
• Character growth
• Sexual abuse

I think that should be enough to indicate the horrible, abusive BxG relationships while promising that Utena x Anthy will be a long-term thing. "Glasses-wearing Love Interests" would contribute to this, since Anthy is the only one who wears glasses and this gives her legitimacy as the love interest.
I would avoid any Love Interest/Couple/etc. tags that would describe any of the men, because they're not the real love interest and therefore shouldn't be given the same space or attention as Anthy.

Spoiler: Other examples of Classic Lit against Easy Tags

Hmmm...

I'd say that I can imagine Mrs Dalloway as a GL not shifting its genre too much if at all. (I mean, if I go the route of Virginia Woolf's contemporary, T.S. Eliot -- I wouldn't have to change anything, but sprinkle in a ton of obscure references, literary allegories, metaphors, and etc to change the meaning. It will be almost an undecipherable mess in its chosen genre/style, but technically -- would still be GL. Albeit extreeeemely niche).

Or, I saw that Woolf's Orlando is actually categorized as "subversive lesbian text" by some lit critics even though I think Orlando never has sex or even romantic relationship outside of M+F. Also, Kokoro -- doesn't actually go into BL but is nonetheless considered one of the first "BL-like texts". Likewise, Death in Venice or Magic Mountain would also fit the bill of being suggestive of BL in extremely complicated topics of sexuality and identity that defy easy tagging.

Trying to tag them SH-style would break my brain, seriously But it doesn't mean that books of this sort/genre/style will never be published on SH? And thus, they will also be a pain in the ass to tag "correctly", invariably making people unhappy. Which is what I tried (unsuccessfully) to imply with my reference to Yellow Wallpaper and Mrs Dalloway. (Sorry about that, again!) That some texts are harder to interpret than others. And thus, harder to tag "correctly"... They would benefit greatly from having some sort of "gray area" tags, perhaps?

I can't remember anything that I've read by Eliot, but that sounds more like queerbaiting rather than a real f/f novel.

As for "Orlando" - it's a great book that explores many concepts, but it's not lesbian. It could be discussed as a "subversive lesbian text" in an academic setting, where people are prepared to deep-dive into what it represents and aren't so bothered about the surface level presentation.
But you could never recommend it as an f/f book to a layman.

It's possible to explore LGBT+ relationships without being an LGBT+ romance novel, and that would be given the subplot tags.

 

[AliceHiess]

One of my major problems with scribble hub is the tag system we have one if the most in depth tag systems of any major original novel hosting site but it’s wasted as it is not utilized to its fullest furthermore so many people seem to be under the assumption that it’s is infallible or near it when it doesn’t even come close which leads to the many posts telling people to just exclude or include x tag(s) though that’s a discussion unto itself. It really annoys me to see people who rather than suggesting a novel when people ask for recommendations just go off and say the equivalent of “look it up” people wouldn’t be in the recommendations section if they were going to do that. It gets even fishier with tags such as “rape” because many works of erotic fiction either glorify the experience or use “questionable consent” to bypass the tag altogether.

it is also my opinion that due to the large valume of tags an author cannot reasonably be expected to add every relevant tag furthermore there are many subjective tags cute protagonist is a prime example I find shy girls cute but not energetic girls my best friend would disagree. As a result some novels with cute protagonist end up with a protagonist I don’t find cute and others would have one my friend doesn’t find cute. As One cannot objectively define cute how is an author supposed to choose whether to tag it or not. Do they go with the majority opinion if so how does one determine the majority and what about those who do not fall under the majority. If they go with their own definition they are bound to disappoint some readers as well. If the tag is going to disappoint readers due to its subjectivity than should you exclude it altogether. There’s really no right answer.

going further with this argument most things are effected at least in part by people’s opinions even things that are strictly objective will always have people who stubbornly disagree with the objective result no matter the evidence provided. So many tags that aren’t even subjective will still have people who don’t agree.

I read a novel recently which had a rape scene by the common definition of rape it was indeed rape but there was an argument in the comments about whether or not it was rape the author said it wasn’t but most of the commenters disagreed.

Another problem that comes up is how much content is enough to merit a tag, does 1 rape scene automatically mean a novel needs the rape tag if it does then one could argue that means 1 scene where a female character that is otherwise shown only being into other woman is shown having attraction to a male character is enough to gain the bisexual protagonist tag.

 

[AliceShiki]

Another problem that comes up is how much content is enough to merit a tag, does 1 rape scene automatically mean a novel needs the rape tag if it does then one could argue that means 1 scene where a female character that is otherwise shown only being into other woman is shown having attraction to a male character is enough to gain the bisexual protagonist tag.

One could indeed argue that. And some may disagree... You know what's the great part about this? Scribbly is not a reader-managed site, but an author-managed site. Authors can use their own personal definitions to make things work... If it doesn't fit your definition as a reader... Tough luck to you.

The tag system is indeed imperfect, but it works well enough.

 

[thedude3445]

A lot of this discussion makes me wish that readers and fans added tags, not authors, much like a database website would (e.g. VNDB). And then individual chapters could be tagged for NSFW or other content warnings, or the casts could be tagged for "cute protagonist" or "bisexual protagonist" and the latter could exist without necessarily having a f/m sex scene involved. I don't know, but I feel like authors put tags on for marketing so much more than accuracy that it defeats the purpose.

 

[Sabruness]

A lot of this discussion makes me wish that readers and fans added tags, not authors, much like a database website would (e.g. VNDB). And then individual chapters could be tagged for NSFW or other content warnings, or the casts could be tagged for "cute protagonist" or "bisexual protagonist" and the latter could exist without necessarily having a f/m sex scene involved. I don't know, but I feel like authors put tags on for marketing so much more than accuracy that it defeats the purpose.

i think that some authors definitely tag for marketing more than accuracy. As a side note to tagging, authors could also outline and/or clarify any of their contentious tagging using part of the summary section, spoilers be damned. i've seen a few authors do that and be upfront about what some of the tags mean, in terms of use in the story, or that some tags wont factor in til far future chapters.

Clarity, above all, would greatly benefit tagging on SH. better to be honest upfront and not get a reader who is not interested than get a reader by pseudo-deception then have them get annoyed by the switch and likely give you a bad review and rating.