Fallen Angel Opposite

[John_Owl]

If you're referring to most religions, no. They don't like the idea of irredeemable evil being redeemed. If someone is evil, they should remain forever evil.

 

[Sleds]

If you're referring to most religions, no. They don't like the idea of irredeemable evil being redeemed. If someone is evil, they should remain forever evil.

Not to offense any believer here, but that kinda shitty for religions who's base start by forgiving other.

 

[John_Owl]

Agreed. I think the idea is that Demons are truly irredeemable. Humans, on the other hand, are capable of redemption. But i've combed through the King James, and haven't seen any real distinctions. It's possible humans can become demons. It's also possible that angels turn into demons and humans are merely their tortured playthings.

But it would make the most sense, considering a lack of redemption for demons, that humans are capable of redemption, UNTIL they enter hell. So with this, it would seem most efficient that demons are human souls. because at that point, they are no longer capable of redemption. I could be wrong though. Any theologists, please feel free to chime in.

 

[Sleds]

Agreed. I think the idea is that Demons are truly irredeemable. Humans, on the other hand, are capable of redemption. But i've combed through the King James, and haven't seen any real distinctions. It's possible humans can become demons. It's also possible that angels turn into demons and humans are merely their tortured playthings.

But it would make the most sense, considering a lack of redemption for demons, that humans are capable of redemption, UNTIL they enter hell. So with this, it would seem most efficient that demons are human souls. because at that point, they are no longer capable of redemption. I could be wrong though. Any theologists, please feel free to chime in.

I don't know. In the fiction "Supernatural" demons are human soul that can't sustain the constant punishment of hell and they become the "Torturer", becoming a demon and torturing human soul at their turn. There an exorcism in it that purifying the demon and change it back to a human soul.

 

[John_Owl]

I don't know. In the fiction "Supernatural" demons are human soul that can't sustain the constant punishment of hell and they become the "Torturer", becoming a demon and torturing human soul at their turn. There an exorcism in it that purifying the demon and change it back to a human soul.

that's one take on it, but Supernatural is still fiction. while the general basis of most of the lore in it is decent, not all of it is correct, due to the need for it to appeal to a different audience than the original sources.

 

[Sleds]

that's one take on it, but Supernatural is still fiction. while the general basis of most of the lore in it is decent, not all of it is correct, due to the need for it to appeal to a different audience than the original sources.

Yes, but the idea of demons come from human soul and can be purified back to it, can be an answer

 

[crbrearley]

You definitely don't want theologians chiming in! They get angry when you talk about "Christian mythology" because they consider it a fact.

As far as John Owl's comment goes, Catholics believe you can live the most dissolute life possible and be redeemed with a deathbed confession. Such is the grace of God, that redemption is always possible. Now, you could argue, and I think a lot of Christians would, that demons would not possess the grace of God. Which might be what John mean anyway. Still, if you imagine a god with infinite compassion, surely that compassion would extend into the demonic realm?

I'm sort of Christian and I think Hell is kinda nonsense (God keeps his own torture chamber such is his infinite love... Really? The State of Ohio will punish and forgive but God won't??). Hell inspires awesome stories, though, from Dante and Milton. Heaven is pretty boring by comparison.

But because a lot of Hell comes from literary expression, you should do exactly what you like and just explain it. You read what religions say for inspiration and then make it work as you like.

 

[KrakenRiderEmma]

It's fairly interesting to go back to the source texts -- I mean, the Hebrew Bible part about "Lucifer" is actually not about a devil or fallen angel at all; it's a warning to the King of Babylon, and "son of morning" (Lucifer, in Latin -- not Hebrew) is more of a metaphor than anything else. But in Ezekiel, there's a whole detail of how the "guardian cherub" was cast out of heaven for becoming wicked, and there's a clear likeness to the serpent of Eden, and in Revelations is the description of "the ancient serpent" Satan who was cast of heaven with the stars, as previously mentioned. Most translations refer to the stars as angels.

And that is where the story only begins, because it's Milton that actually turns these handful of bare verses into 17th century fantasy fiction.

 

[vzymmer]

You could go with the chinese route, I saw some interesting things on 'I am actually a cultivation bigshot' manhua.
Its good comedy.

 

[lilwriter]

Mythology is anything that people invent. Therefore, Lucifer/Satan is a fallen angel because popular culture has declared it that way—in books and stories, movies and fiction—ie myth.

 

[Sleds]

It's fairly interesting to go back to the source texts -- I mean, the Hebrew Bible part about "Lucifer" is actually not about a devil or fallen angel at all; it's a warning to the King of Babylon, and "son of morning" (Lucifer, in Latin -- not Hebrew) is more of a metaphor than anything else. But in Ezekiel, there's a whole detail of how the "guardian cherub" was cast out of heaven for becoming wicked, and there's a clear likeness to the serpent of Eden, and in Revelations is the description of "the ancient serpent" Satan who was cast of heaven with the stars, as previously mentioned. Most translations refer to the stars as angels.

And that is where the story only begins, because it's Milton that actually turns these handful of bare verses into 17th century fantasy fiction.

Isn't this one an hebrew bible part?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Cause it's written right at the beginning that he fallen.
And that not a verse coming from 17th, it's a verse in the 8th

 

[KrakenRiderEmma]

Isn't this one an hebrew bible part?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

Cause it's written right at the beginning that he fallen.
And that not a verse coming from 17th, it's a verse in the 8th

Yes, but this whole thing is addressed not to a devil, but to the King of Babylon; Isaiah's prophecy is about the destruction of the kingdom Babylon and how it will affect and benefit the people of Judah and the tribe of Jacob (the Hebrews). So this passage is a long taunting song about how the king is proud and is gonna get taken down -- it's the king of Babylon who is falling from Heaven, not an angel or devil. The word "Lucifer" here appears first in the Latin translation, as the Latin equivalent of the Hebrew word for "bringer of light." It was also the Latin name for the planet Venus, also known as the morning star or dawn star, and that's why the devil sometimes is named "Lucifer Morningstar." However, the whole connection to any kind of devil or Satan here is pretty thin. It's actually not until the Book of Ezekiel is written hundreds of years later, with all its stuff about how the wicked "guardian cherub" is cast down out of heaven, that people started connecting it back to this passage and saying "hey maybe it's a reference to the same idea." Then many many centuries later when St. John the Divine writes Revelations, there's all sorts of stuff about Satan being cast down with his stars/angels, so the whole thing gets made into "retroactive continuity." However, there's nothing in Isaiah's text that suggests he was thinking about anyone in this passage besides the King of Babylon; if you read the whole thing it's just about a human king.

The Book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century BC.

2400 years later, in the 17th century AD, an English writer named John Milton writes Paradise Lost, which is an attempt to actually turn all these little tiny strands of Bible verse into a story about Lucifer and the fallen angels, since the Bible verses don't actually add up into a story of any kind if you read them in the actual books of the bible. It's just little fragmentary references. So if you want to see the first time someone actually wrote a story about this stuff, it's Milton -- and it's actually still pretty good. (Very influential on the Neil Gaiman version of Lucifer, probably still the most popular version of the character in US-published comics.)

 

[HelloHound]

risen demon

 

[Sleds]

Yes, but this whole thing is addressed not to a devil, but to the King of Babylon; Isaiah's prophecy is about the destruction of the kingdom Babylon and how it will affect and benefit the people of Judah and the tribe of Jacob (the Hebrews). So this passage is a long taunting song about how the king is proud and is gonna get taken down -- it's the king of Babylon who is falling from Heaven, not an angel or devil. The word "Lucifer" here appears first in the Latin translation, as the Latin equivalent of the Hebrew word for "bringer of light." It was also the Latin name for the planet Venus, also known as the morning star or dawn star, and that's why the devil sometimes is named "Lucifer Morningstar." However, the whole connection to any kind of devil or Satan here is pretty thin. It's actually not until the Book of Ezekiel is written hundreds of years later, with all its stuff about how the wicked "guardian cherub" is cast down out of heaven, that people started connecting it back to this passage and saying "hey maybe it's a reference to the same idea." Then many many centuries later when St. John the Divine writes Revelations, there's all sorts of stuff about Satan being cast down with his stars/angels, so the whole thing gets made into "retroactive continuity." However, there's nothing in Isaiah's text that suggests he was thinking about anyone in this passage besides the King of Babylon; if you read the whole thing it's just about a human king.

The Book of Isaiah was written in the 8th century BC.

2400 years later, in the 17th century AD, an English writer named John Milton writes Paradise Lost, which is an attempt to actually turn all these little tiny strands of Bible verse into a story about Lucifer and the fallen angels, since the Bible verses don't actually add up into a story of any kind if you read them in the actual books of the bible. It's just little fragmentary references. So if you want to see the first time someone actually wrote a story about this stuff, it's Milton -- and it's actually still pretty good. (Very influential on the Neil Gaiman version of Lucifer, probably still the most popular version of the character in US-published comics.)

Maybe that just misinterpretation due to translation and the time. I may also not understand the text correctly, but isn't in this part the king talking? He said he will exalt his throne above the stars of god. If it's the king who talk, then who he describe to fall at the beginning if the lucifer here is only a mistranslation of the bringer of light?

risen demon

It seem to be the term most answered here.

 

[melchi]

So far as I know, there's never a passage in the Bible that states Lucifer, who became the devil, ever created demons. It is said in Revelation 12:7-9 that Lucifer, who is being referred to as the dragon in the verses, and "his angels," were thrown out of Heaven by the archangel Michael. In verses 3 and 4 of the same chapter state that Lucifer swept away a third of the stars in the sky and knocked them to earth. It is generally accepted that these verses mean that the angels/stars became the demons. It is never stated elsewhere that lucifer created demons from scratch, or I, at least, cannot find such a verse

The origin of Angels is from Hebrew writing. "Angel" doesn't mean heavenly thing with wings. It just means "messenger" There are divine messengers, even other places the term can be used for normal people too.

That being said, there are lots of people that have played around with the idea in their fiction. Like in the game planescape torment, one of the party members is a demon who gave up her nature to be something different. It is a fun idea to play around with, but it'll not match canonical teachings.

 

[Prince_Azmiran_Myrian]

From what I understand about this stuff, fallen angels are demons. The word 'demon' may be a different name for the same being, difference being its 'status'.

Didn't know all the christian story, and there different form of this religion inside this one, but I thought that in some of them, demon were made by the fallen angel and not the fallen angel themself. But it may be some interpretation of it and not sacred text

You may be thinking of the Nephilim, supposed children of angels and men.

In the jewish folklore, Lilith, the first wife of Adam, became later the mother of demons, and apparently, the Christian demonology adopted and incorparated her figure

Keep in mind that jewish folklore does not necessarily equate to jewish religion. Folklore is often simple popular tales, not seen as religious narrative/canon.

 

[Sleds]

From what I understand about this stuff, fallen angels are demons. The word 'demon' may be a different name for the same being, difference being its 'status'.

If we're talking about it's origin, the word "demon" come from "daimon" in greek mythology and they are referred as supernatural being or spirit that could be either benevolent or malevolent.

You may be thinking of the Nephilim, supposed children of angels and men.

No

Keep in mind that jewish folklore does not necessarily equate to jewish religion. Folklore is often simple popular tales, not seen as religious narrative/canon.

Sure, but this whole thread was not entirely for the religion part, and more to find a term for the "risen demon" in any ancient sacred text/myth/legend/folklore if any exist in them

 

[NotaNuffian]

So there are two players in this game: Angels and Demons

There are two sides in this game: Good and Evil.

Angels in Good, Demons as Evil.

In my opinion, why use the specific term for Angels that switch side as Fallen Angels.

Just use the term "Defected"

Defected Angels and Defected Demons.

 

[Sleds]

So there are two players in this game: Angels and Demons

There are two sides in this game: Good and Evil.

Angels in Good, Demons as Evil.

In my opinion, why use the specific term for Angels that switch side as Fallen Angels.

Just use the term "Defected"

Defected Angels and Defected Demons.

Don't think defected can be a right word for them since they are born in each side without anyone asking their choice on that matter

 

[NotaNuffian]

Don't think defected can be a right word for them since they are born in each side without anyone asking their choice on that matter

Altered then?

I feel like FGO is affecting my words now.